In the USA, it is the deep fear of residential homeowners that the value of their property they hope to make a lot of money on when they sell will be less than desirable. Some who moved to areas near airports did so as the value of property was lower and more affordable.
Than you have the 'environmental racism', issue like government subsided public housing, too often Black and Hispanic/Latino occupying, feel that they were put in the worst place, like near noisy airports due to their skin color and poverty.
Then there is the frequency even if at low db levels which can be annoying. Airport authorities and Federal grants have been given to schools and other facilities to pay for sound reduction alterations and some homeowners want a cut of that money too so to pay for mods they want for their properties.

my impression for Hamburg or any other airport vicinity region in Germany:

The "Anti Airplane Noisies" will be aggressively active as long as they can see airplanes.

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

ER757 wrote:

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

FGITD wrote:

ER757 wrote:

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

I don’t mind aircraft noise because they are gone fairly quickly, but I do mind my deadbeat neighbours kids bashing that damn big drum (Lebanese drum).

They go all afternoon (from say 2pm) and all night (up to midnight), blast the music loudly, shout and scream, even crap karaoke all at loud volume. They don’t even live there, just turn up to the unfinished place on weekends to have their parties outside.

I find it amazing that cities go along with taking seriously (creating curfews, annoying noise abatement procedures) people that buy properties in developments near airports and then complain about noise*. What the hell did they expect?

*- exception is for new airports, these guys have an excuse.

I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

T18 wrote:

I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

And what about an airport which has seen a substantial increase in traffic? AMS has seen an increase in movements of 20 percent in the last decade. Not only more planes but also an increase in size.

marcelh wrote:

T18 wrote:

I have a simple rule for NIMBYs. If the Airport, Racetrack, Gun Range, Concert Venue, Stadium, School, Open Pit Mine, Etc was there before you built on the property you have zero right to complain ever, if you bought the dwelling and then learned about it complain about the folks who sold it with out telling you and if they built something with out you saying a word until it was done, I'll grant you a half right to moan about it but still wonder how the heck you failed to attempt to stop it being built...

And frankly for some of these cases, I would gladly buy their home, essp the folks who are upset about a Racetrack or a GA airport lol.

And what about an airport which has seen a substantial increase in traffic? AMS has seen an increase in movements of 20 percent in the last decade. Not only more planes but also an increase in size.

I'd say irrelevant. I am gonna bet that aircraft got at least 20% quieter in the same period

tu204 wrote:

I'd say irrelevant. I am gonna bet that aircraft got at least 20% quieter in the same period

What is "20% quieter"?

If an aircraft is loud enough to wake me up at night or makes it impossible to talk and listen to anybody at my garden table, it doesn't really matter how much too noisy it is. And if that happens 20% more often than when I bought the house, it annoys me.


Gruß, masi1157

ltbewr wrote:

In the USA, it is the deep fear of residential homeowners that the value of their property they hope to make a lot of money on when they sell will be less than desirable. Some who moved to areas near airports did so as the value of property was lower and more affordable.
Than you have the 'environmental racism', issue like government subsided public housing, too often Black and Hispanic/Latino occupying, feel that they were put in the worst place, like near noisy airports due to their skin color and poverty.
...

Agreed.
So it's lobbying without justification of the first group.
Concerning the second group: Similar one has high buildings next to arterial roads in cities. Poor people live in these, blocking the noise for the remaining city. Maybe one should stop car traffic in cities as well.

Housing is a funny topic. Unless one lives in a city like Paris or London shortage of land (for flats) should be no issue. However politicians also are invested in land and like to create a shortage. By putting poor people in traffic noise there is no risk rich people will shift there.
In India I saw a housing program where poor people got like 50 or 60 square meter plots for free. All fields around. The purpose to make plots so small was to make it unattractive for wealthier sections.

Sometimes you need to experience quiet to understand how loud it was. Since COVID I find the planes a lot louder, because now there are periods of quiet.

Aaron747 wrote:

This has been an annoying NIMBY issue to me for ages - but now survey data shows that even as planes get quieter, airport neighbors’ ire grows at lower sound levels than before.

Could it be that the issue is less about the noise itself and more about the explosion of narcissism in American society?

As the old adage goes, if you don’t like airplane noise, don’t buy a home within the cone of an active runway.

A few things about this.

Studies show that airplane noise is very intrusive due to the pitch but also the unpredictability of it. Much more so than trains or cars. So it is indeed an issue. Schiphol Amsterdam Airport has much less traffic in 2020, obviously, but the number of movements was more or less the same as the mid-1990s. Which in itself is quite mind bobbling to think about. So the old adage is not entirely true with the increase in traffic over the years. The area in which airplane noise can be annoying is quite large as well, tens of kilometers away, not just below an active runway. I do not mind - obviously - but I live around 50km away from Schiphol, as the crow flies, and sometimes there are planes flying quite low over my city, and I can imagine that that bothers some.

Airports tend to be close to cities, because of the people - costumers if you will - there, obviously. The people are there because of work, friends etc. So this is quite a big problem to coexist. Just to say one of those should not make a fuss is quite strange to me. The airport is there for the people, not the other way around.

Noise pollution is a real problem and can affect ones health, so it is something to keep in mind. Food for thought

Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades

Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?

LittleFokker wrote:

Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?

There are new airports being build on the edge of the town and there are existing airports that have adopted new flight paths

I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

seb146 wrote:

I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move

FGITD wrote:

ER757 wrote:

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over

LittleFokker wrote:

Isn't it true that with every airport in a residential area, the airport was originally way outside of town and then the city grew around it?

No

ER757 wrote:

FGITD wrote:

ER757 wrote:

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over

You know it’s bad when I had to get heavier duty ear protection to run the leaf blower than I have for working on the ramp.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades

Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.

What I mean is, 1× 737NG vs 2× 737MAX, or 1× 737NG vs 1× 787, since over the years it is common for larger or more aircraft being used as a response to ridership increase

ER757 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move

We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.

Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.

LCDFlight wrote:

Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

And I think pretty much everywhere else, too.

Our small GA club gets noise complaints every year (it's mostly a holiday home area), we always point at the old pic of the runway in the 60s surrounded just by farmer fields and the old shack.

Should have checked before buying/renting mate.

That said, we are not very optimistic about the long term prospects of the club, at some point developers will make a good enough offer.

Aaron747 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Generally, in the US, airports have been there longer than most or all local citizens.

There is a simple option to eliminate airport noise, and that is to take personal responsibility not to visit (or certainly, to live in) cities that are near an airport.

This is about taking responsibility for your personal life choices.

Absolutely true, nevertheless federal and local authorities have to pay close attention to noise levels and abatement updates because this issue draws residential ire like few others.

People do the same thing with busy streets in my town. "Oh, look at this reasonably-priced big house on a busy street. Let's BAN CAR TRAFFIC in order to make this street into a park where I can walk my dog."

LCDFlight wrote:

People do the same thing with busy streets in my town. "Oh, look at this reasonably-priced big house on a busy street. Let's BAN CAR TRAFFIC in order to make this street into a park where I can walk my dog."

Seems to be the norm now.

Next town they built a returment home at the outskirts aside a Bundestraße ( B79 )
that carries heavy traffic : commuters and HGV to reach/bypass the A7.

next thing you see is the residents have forced a 30km/h limit for that road segment.
Traffic congestion every morning and evening.

Hamburg Airport in the 50ties and 60ties had infernally loud airplanes. 707, DC8, CV880, CV990 ..
The fringe was mostly Schrebergärten owned by the state.
what real estate went for sale was going cheaply. . because of the noise.
Now with a massive reduction in noise people suddely notice that they have a right to silence.
( to better hear the ghetto blasters and car hifi of their kids

seb146 wrote:

ER757 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

I don't understand people who buy a house on a flight path then say "but I didn't know there was an airport here!" How do you not know? When we bought this house, we came and toured each property we were interested in. How does someone buy a house sight unseen? Better question: why?

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move

We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.

My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night

ER757 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

ER757 wrote:

This!
As a home buyer it is incumbent upon you to do research about the area where you plan to move

We spent an entire day driving around Bakersfield and another entire day driving around Lancaster looking at the neighborhoods and the towns in general. Those two towns seemed to have homes we can afford. The neighborhoods, however, were not that great. This is why I don't understand.

My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night

Keep going. This is good stuff!

I had my first Aldi experience in Bakersfield, so it wasn't all bad.

Those who complain, recall the open house/showing day, when your trusted real estate agent said there would be hardly any flights, you both nodded your heads and signed the offer/contract.

I live about 1.75 miles from the nearest DFW airport runway, but it's parallel, that far away, so I'm not in the flight path. My home faces east, and I don't even see a line of planes taking off or landing. So no airplane noise.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Those who complain, recall the open house/showing day, when your trusted real estate agent said there would be hardly any flights, you both nodded your heads and signed the offer/contract.

But what neither you or the agent may know about, is planned airport expansion, new/extended runways and the like...

ER757 wrote:

FGITD wrote:

ER757 wrote:

I think the article hits on an interesting point, about the "type" of noise complained about. Many years ago when I was but a 20-something long-haired rock and roll guitarist, our band played an outdoor gig in the town where we lived on Memorial Day afternoon to give the kids in the town something to do on their day off. Got permission from the village, notified the police that we'd be playing from 2:00 to 4:00 etc. Into our second set, the cops show up and say neighbors were complaining about the noise. We told the officer we had a permit and he told us to carry on. About half an hour later another cop shows up and tells us we need to shut it down. I ended up writing a scathing letter to the editor in the local paper asking the neighbors why they don't complain about the guy next door running his lawn mower or chainsaw, both of which make a lot more racket than we did.

I think that’s exactly the point, the “type” of noise and the ability to control it to a certain degree changes people’s perspectives.

I have an office at an airport, my windows overlook a ramp/taxiway/runway. It’s noise all day, and it bothers me so little that I’ll even open my windows on a nice day. Between late night delayed flights, I’ve even been known to get some prolonged blinks in with the same noise. But the second my neighbor at home turns on his leaf blower, it's as if I'm in the loudest place on earth.

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over

I agree!! the drone of blowers seems to go on for hours when the landscapers are mowing...
Just think how many more people could be employed, if they had to sweep and rake up the clippings instead of using those infernal blowers.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Are airports actually quieter, if let say 737 get replaced by 787, or two new 737MAX? Increase in gauge size and frequency due to traffic increase is quite common across the.world in recent decades

Arguably on a dB basis they are quieter. 73Max is quieter than 73G is quieter than 733 is quieter than 732, just as 787 is quieter than 763. The industry has made great efforts to reduce noise - that’s a plain fact. Not really talking about dudes with 1970s bizjets that are barely stage IIIB compliant.

What I used to notice was a 787-9 of Air New Zealand flying over, then a 737-800 going out following it. The 787 was so quiet in comparison.

The A380 was of course the biggest we would have flying over but it too wasn’t particularly loud. 747-400, 777 and A330 on the other hand - very noisy.

Loudest of all was that old VH-DHE while it was around. Thunderous old thing.

ER757 wrote:

My brother lives in Bakersfield - when my cousin asked him how he liked it he said "If the Good Lord were to give the world an enema, Bakersfield is where they'd stick the hose." I spent a week in Bakersfield one night

I was once hit on by an attractive lady at a small restaurant in Bakersfield. She also was not from Bakersfield. I will have to check to be sure, but I believe on an objective level that this is the literal best thing that has ever happened in that town.

ER757 wrote:

Leaf blowers are pure evil - tools of the devil. They should be banned except during October when there are actually leaves to blow. Otherwise get a rake or broom and a shovel! - Rant over

Any powered yard tools fall into this, yes. I have a neighbor who insists on having the entire crew over every Wednesday morning. I told him once that it was crazy how people only ever do stuff like that during the mid morning hours when about a third of the population is asleep. And that we should allow these things at three AM too if we are to do this. He said that would be 'inconsiderate.' I told him there is a special place in the Inland Empire for guys like him and walked off...

Aaron747 wrote:

She probably identified you as a fellow refugee

I am saying this with zero sense of irony... Our conversation did start with a Tom Petty song from that album.

Loudest I personally heard, in the late 80's, when I lived about 1.5 miles from DFW, was a morning takeoff of the Concorde. That, and when Delta had their aircraft maintenance building operational on the East side of DFW. They would run up the jet engines for 10-15 seconds at a time, late at night.