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Dutchy
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Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:06 am

The Guardian view on the riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Violence by loyalist youths over the Easter weekend is evidence of an increasingly febrile atmosphere

The rioting that took place over the long Easter weekend in Northern Ireland was relatively small-scale. But its significance should not be downplayed. On successive evenings, groups of loyalist youths threw petrol bombs, set cars alight and fought the police, injuring dozens of officers. The violence testifies to a dangerous sense of grievance in unionist communities, as the politics of Brexit play out. Though the main paramilitary groups did not, it seems, participate, neither did they use their influence to stop the riots, and in some cases allegedly encouraged them.

According to security analysts and police, criminal gangs orchestrated some of the disturbances in response to a crackdown on their activities. News that there will be no prosecutions over breaches of Covid regulations during the funeral of a leading IRA figure further fuelled resentment. But the overarching context of unionist discontent is Brexit and its consequences. A febrile atmosphere is developing on the ground, which requires the urgent attention of both Westminster and Stormont.


Link for the Guardian opinion article

I think it is quite sad that we see another round of violence in Northern Ireland. This will dig another trance, letterly and figurately speaking. Violence will not solve anything.

The Cranberries - Zombie

So what do you guys think?
 
AeroVega
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:09 am

I think this could have been foreseen. That's why I was quite surprised that the EU proposed and the UK accepted the Irish sea border. Back to the drawing table?
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:23 am

Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 am

Look Brexit is done, so that is not a factor anymore, there is a new reality, Northern Ireland is out of the EU, with the exit deal in place, including the border in the Irish Sea and the open border between the Republic and the Northern part of the Iles.

The question is how to move on, and get out of this spiral of violence again and return to a stable peaceful part of Great Britain.
 
A101
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:58 am

GDB wrote:
Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

What did you really think was going to happen

This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:01 am

it's obvious that not only Brexit itself is done, but so is the NI protocol, meaning the border is to be established and striclty enforced down the Irish Sea, with NI effectively being part of the EU's SM.

It was the UK's explicit demand to return to the EU's opening bid of carving out NI from the rest of the UK and economically annexing it, something no British PM could ever accept according to then PM T. May, yet her successor thought otherwise about it in order to 'win' the much touted right to strike British-only FTAs (something the UK could not do as part of the EU's Custom Union).

Well, this is now the result on the ground...

So good to see all those much better British FTAs have been signed the very minute after Brexit happened, with the highly prized USA deal (ROTFL), or the deal with Japan (identical to the EU one, with some losses even) etc. Still waiting for the comparative table with all the huge wins from this new ability vs what the UK enjoyed for almost half a decade.
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
Look Brexit is done, so that is not a factor anymore, there is a new reality, Northern Ireland is out of the EU, with the exit deal in place, including the border in the Irish Sea and the open border between the Republic and the Northern part of the Iles.

The question is how to move on, and get out of this spiral of violence again and return to a stable peaceful part of Great Britain.


You are right, however this is in part a consequence of it, which cannot be ignored.
Extremists on both sides in N.I. know this and are acting accordingly, having been much more marginalized before.

There was a reason the Democrats in the US were so concerned too, given their involvement in facilitating the Good Friday Agreement, hence their warnings about Brexit and now, post that, how the reckless actions of the Johnson government will cast a pall over any trade agreement, in that, they have the UK by the balls. Nothing like getting rid of 'foreign interference' as the liars claimed!

Ultimately it has made N.I. staying a stable part of the UK less likely, in the same way it has turbocharged Scottish Independence just two years after they were beaten in a referendum, even the much more marginal Welsh Nationalists have been seeing a big jump in support.
And Leavers call themselves 'patriotic', don't make me laugh.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:28 am

GDB wrote:
You are right, however this is in part a consequence of it, which cannot be ignored.
Extremists on both sides in N.I. know this and are acting accordingly, having been much more marginalized before.

There was a reason the Democrats in the US were so concerned too, given their involvement in facilitating the Good Friday Agreement, hence their warnings about Brexit and now, post that, how the reckless actions of the Johnson government will cast a pall over any trade agreement, in that, they have the UK by the balls. Nothing like getting rid of 'foreign interference' as the liars claimed!

Ultimately it has made N.I. staying a stable part of the UK less likely, in the same way it has turbocharged Scottish Independence just two years after they were beaten in a referendum, even the much more marginal Welsh Nationalists have been seeing a big jump in support.
And Leavers call themselves 'patriotic', don't make me laugh.


You are right of course, but I wanted to talk about the violence itself and what way out there may be. We all know Brexit is the reason, the big pink elephant in the room. But Brexit is done, so given the situation with Brexit and the N.I. protocol, how can we move out of this spiral towards the return of the troubles.
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:44 am

A101 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

What did you really think was going to happen

This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code


No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.

As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.

Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:11 pm

GDB wrote:
A101 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

What did you really think was going to happen

This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code


No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.

As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.

Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


That last part to me is a key problem. 1998 and the Omagh bombing are far enough away that to 30 year-olds, that's a blank spot on the evening news when they were kids. If their parents are Tories who came down on the side of SAS raids in the 80s, even worse. Too much ignorance out there.
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
GDB wrote:
You are right, however this is in part a consequence of it, which cannot be ignored.
Extremists on both sides in N.I. know this and are acting accordingly, having been much more marginalized before.

There was a reason the Democrats in the US were so concerned too, given their involvement in facilitating the Good Friday Agreement, hence their warnings about Brexit and now, post that, how the reckless actions of the Johnson government will cast a pall over any trade agreement, in that, they have the UK by the balls. Nothing like getting rid of 'foreign interference' as the liars claimed!

Ultimately it has made N.I. staying a stable part of the UK less likely, in the same way it has turbocharged Scottish Independence just two years after they were beaten in a referendum, even the much more marginal Welsh Nationalists have been seeing a big jump in support.
And Leavers call themselves 'patriotic', don't make me laugh.


You are right of course, but I wanted to talk about the violence itself and what way out there may be. We all know Brexit is the reason, the big pink elephant in the room. But Brexit is done, so given the situation with Brexit and the N.I. protocol, how can we move out of this spiral towards the return of the troubles.


The answer was EU membership or a soft Brexit with staying in the single market and customs union.
Either of these options was possible, the latter post Referendum, but the DUP were opposed to both of these sensible, peace-supporting options. Not to mention the current UK government.
(And the Leave Liars in the campaign stressed they had no intention of a 'hard Brexit', and people believed pieces of work like Farage and Johnson! Of course they had no intention of this and made damn sure any PM trying to get the latter done was voted down, more Leave supporting MP's voted against attempts to do this than any Remain ones).

So there is no solution, not with the current mob running things, unless as in the past the violence escalates to the UK mainland.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:26 pm

GDB wrote:
The answer was EU membership or a soft Brexit with staying in the single market and customs union.


That may have been an option at one point in time, but it isn't any longer: everything is signed and sealed and irreversible now.
Unless the UK wants to rejoin the EU's Custom Union, or more correctly would like to form a Customs Union of its own Customs Union with that of the EU, I should rather say.

It theoretically could, and it would even demonstrate the so precious sovereignty of the UK as an equal partner by setting up such a Union, and it wouldn't matter since the UK still has zero FTA which would conflict with that of the EU... but of course it would once again bring the ECJ into the picture and so it's still a no go for a bunch of people in the UK who have long confused the ECJ with the ECHR.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Look Brexit is done, so that is not a factor anymore, there is a new reality, Northern Ireland is out of the EU, with the exit deal in place, including the border in the Irish Sea and the open border between the Republic and the Northern part of the Iles.

The question is how to move on, and get out of this spiral of violence again and return to a stable peaceful part of Great Britain.


This is a direct consequence of the “Brexit at any cost” brigade who are more than happy to throw anyone and everyone under the bus to get what they want.

This isn’t the Brexit we voted for! :banghead:
 
ltbewr
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:38 pm

I suspect many of the youth rioters are unemployed, due to a mix of multi-generational employment issues, Brexit and Covid-19. People not working have time on their hands and not enough money, so tend to get involved in anti-government and anti-social activities. They brood in their 'tribes' listening to too many peers with similar ideas of hate and anger, looking to blame their problems on, turning to violence and crime to deal with it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:44 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I suspect many of the youth rioters are unemployed, due to a mix of multi-generational employment issues, Brexit and Covid-19. People not working have time on their hands and not enough money, so tend to get involved in anti-government and anti-social activities. They brood in their 'tribes' listening to too many peers with similar ideas of hate and anger, looking to blame their problems on, turning to violence and crime to deal with it.


this is more a case of primordial tribal warfare. Both groups have to find a way to peacefully co-exist. There is no other option.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think it is quite sad that we see another round of violence in Northern Ireland.

Not surprising though. The NI protocol was a fudge, and like all fudges, doesn't solve the problem. Keeping Northern Ireland in the UK and part of the single market is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There's no easy solution to this: if one side is happy, the other gets upset. It was always like this, and always will be. :roll:
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GDB wrote:
A101 wrote:

This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

What did you really think was going to happen

This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code


No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.

As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.

Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


That last part to me is a key problem. 1998 and the Omagh bombing are far enough away that to 30 year-olds, that's a blank spot on the evening news when they were kids. If their parents are Tories who came down on the side of SAS raids in the 80s, even worse. Too much ignorance out there.


Well I never vote Tory but approved as did most, when the security forces legitimately killed heavily armed IRA members such as at Loughgall in 1987, (in fact most of them who ended up dead when conducting terrorist operations were attributed to the SAS even when other units did it, the IRA even claimed it before the SAS were deployed in Jan 1976, following the IRA massacre of 10 unarmed civilians).
Though one SAS member put it more bluntly, 'if you want to play big boys games, you play by big boys rules'.

Operation Banner, the military operation of Aid To The Civil Power, which ran from 1969 to 2007, started out ironically to prevent Loyalist mobs from driving the Catholic Nationalist population out of their homes by burning them out.
First security forces member killed? A Police Officer by Loyalist gunfire.

No denying the military made some terrible errors in particular the early years, however Op Banner was, eventually a success, given it's original and ongoing mission was to hold the line, preventing anarchy until the politicians can come up with a solution and the army can gladly leave. The military brass warned from the start there is not a purely military solution to this problem.
Just that success took 25 years, then another four to reach the GFA. The GFA in effect being essentially the same power sharing offer rejected by both sides in 1974.

Maybe that was tragically the way it was always going to be, only when the IRA's 'long war' campaign from the mid 70's just became sectarian tit for tat killing of innocents in an ever escalating cycle, that they found their own 'unit' for weeding out informers in IRA ranks was itself penetrated by the security forces but mostly just the war weariness of most people.
I can remember much of this, our PM is only a couple of years older than me and seems to not know nor understand any of this.
Or just does not want to know, Brexit is all false history and fantasy after all.
Plus his overwhelming sense of entitlement.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:13 pm

GDB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GDB wrote:

No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.

As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.

Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


That last part to me is a key problem. 1998 and the Omagh bombing are far enough away that to 30 year-olds, that's a blank spot on the evening news when they were kids. If their parents are Tories who came down on the side of SAS raids in the 80s, even worse. Too much ignorance out there.


Well I never vote Tory but approved as did most, when the security forces legitimately killed heavily armed IRA members such as at Loughgall in 1987, (in fact most of them who ended up dead when conducting terrorist operations were attributed to the SAS even when other units did it, the IRA even claimed it before the SAS were deployed in Jan 1976, following the IRA massacre of 10 unarmed civilians).
Though one SAS member put it more bluntly, 'if you want to play big boys games, you play by big boys rules'.

Operation Banner, the military operation of Aid To The Civil Power, which ran from 1969 to 2007, started out ironically to prevent Loyalist mobs from driving the Catholic Nationalist population out of their homes by burning them out.
First security forces member killed? A Police Officer by Loyalist gunfire.

No denying the military made some terrible errors in particular the early years, however Op Banner was, eventually a success, given it's original and ongoing mission was to hold the line, preventing anarchy until the politicians can come up with a solution and the army can gladly leave. The military brass warned from the start there is not a purely military solution to this problem.
Just that success took 25 years, then another four to reach the GFA. The GFA in effect being essentially the same power sharing offer rejected by both sides in 1974.

Maybe that was tragically the way it was always going to be, only when the IRA's 'long war' campaign from the mid 70's just became sectarian tit for tat killing of innocents in an ever escalating cycle, that they found their own 'unit' for weeding out informers in IRA ranks was itself penetrated by the security forces but mostly just the war weariness of most people.
I can remember much of this, our PM is only a couple of years older than me and seems to not know nor understand any of this.
Or just does not want to know, Brexit is all false history and fantasy after all.
Plus his overwhelming sense of entitlement.


The perspective I always got from Americans who grew up in NI was that violence begot violence and everything was set in stone to play out badly from the 'terrible errors' you mention. Sectarian skirmishes tend to be doused in a particular sauce of stupidity and fruitlessness no matter where they occur in the world. But I say that knowing full well we're in no position to be lecturing other parts of the world about the best way to solve neighborly political issues. It's a sad state affairs if we go back to even half of what the Troubles were. :splat:
 
A101
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:21 pm

GDB wrote:

No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.
As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.
Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


Sorry I do not agree with what you wrote, there is nothing in the Belfast agreement the proclaims that the UK must remain in the EU to honour the treaty. The UK electorate were given a vote on EU membership the majority voted no.

The seeds of the current predicament were sown by PM May in her attempt to mitigate and appease Brussels which was exactly the wrong decision instead of grasping the opportunities of removing ourselves from the Brussels bureaucracy and forging policy in UK interests.Where the May government went wrong was in thinking that the WA had to be a document on how the EU/UK would be tied together after the divorce instead of being strictly a financial document of the splitting liabilities nothing more nothing less.
 
GDB
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:42 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think it is quite sad that we see another round of violence in Northern Ireland.

Not surprising though. The NI protocol was a fudge, and like all fudges, doesn't solve the problem. Keeping Northern Ireland in the UK and part of the single market is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There's no easy solution to this: if one side is happy, the other gets upset. It was always like this, and always will be. :roll:


The problem has always been that a majority of those in N.I. wanted to remain part of the UK, as true in 1969, 1998 and even back to 1912 when the Liberal UK government tried to bring in Home Rule but faced a mass rebellion.
Whatever the post Independence Constitution had written down for decades about reuniting Ireland, or what some of their political leaders said in public, in reality they did not want a million people who did not want to be Irish to deal with, given their record of violence to keep N.I. British.
To press the point some bombs were set off in the South in the 70's by Loyalist terrorists.

The GFA made the situation as acceptable as possible, helped greatly by both the UK and Eire being EU members, with the development of the Single Market.
Which held until that attempt to quell dissenters in his own party, by David Cameron, backfired on not just him but the UK as a whole.
(That was the real reason for offering a referendum, even his closet political allies begged him not to. Smug git knew best though, didn't he?)

Prior to this, the main concern of Loyalists was the fear of demographics, that the Catholics could one day be in a majority to force a united Ireland, this however had been a 'thing' with them for decades, like Fusion energy or Brazil being the next major power, always 30 years in the future.
Though as Eire also became much more socially Liberal, much less in the grip of the church, that could move moderate Protestants but a fundamental weakness of this was the Loyalist parties themselves were faith based nutters. Allowed for too long to be exempt from reforms that the rest of the UK had for decades, the UK they wanted to belonged to.

(When Direct Rule came in from 1972, that should have also meant full alignment with existing and future UK laws, in '72 that would have meant the great Roy Jenkins reforms from 1965-67, on divorce, abortion law reform, homosexuality decriminalization to name ones that they would have hated. However the then Conservative government were roughly politically aligned to the Official Unionists, so they did not say to them 'tough shit, you want to remain part of the UK and our support and protection?')

It would have also made their case internationally look better, more rational, given how Eire was like in these areas at the time.
 
GDB
Posts: 14408
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:04 pm

A101 wrote:
GDB wrote:

No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.
As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.
Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


Sorry I do not agree with what you wrote, there is nothing in the Belfast agreement the proclaims that the UK must remain in the EU to honour the treaty. The UK electorate were given a vote on EU membership the majority voted no.

The seeds of the current predicament were sown by PM May in her attempt to mitigate and appease Brussels which was exactly the wrong decision instead of grasping the opportunities of removing ourselves from the Brussels bureaucracy and forging policy in UK interests.Where the May government went wrong was in thinking that the WA had to be a document on how the EU/UK would be tied together after the divorce instead of being strictly a financial document of the splitting liabilities nothing more nothing less.


Tell that to the fishing communities who largely voted Leave, now facing devastation and of course, indifference from the likes of Johnson and Farage, or the port workers, or the fact that between Leave winning and Covid, inward investment to the UK fell off a cliff. It wasn't just Elon Musk who switched plans to open a large battery factory from a deprived part of Greater Manchester to Germany, he said why.

Then the few who supported Brexit as major businessmen.
Ractliff, moved abroad to avoid tax, no longer building his new SUV in Wales but France.
JCB, big Tory donor, new £400M plant planned, in Germany.
Dyson, that POS has entirely moved his HQ and new investments, out of the UK.

But many SME's and Institutions have left the UK with great reluctance and forced to economically, those who paid their taxes. Some of the larger ones the UK taxpayer now has to bribe to keep them here, for now. This has increased rapidly since Jan.

Please don't try and tell me Johnson had anything in mind in all his dealings other than getting himself to No.10, anyone who has ever had to deal with him can tell you otherwise.
And this is also at the heart of the situation in Northern Ireland.
Just with turbo boosters on.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14841
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:47 pm

AeroVega wrote:
I think this could have been foreseen. That's why I was quite surprised that the EU proposed and the UK accepted the Irish sea border. Back to the drawing table?


At the end of the day this is not (yet) an EU territory. The EU doesn't want violence, but it's not ready to have a hole in its borders to avoid it. And now that the UK is showing it isn't able, nor willing, nor even trying, to control any border, the case for an open border with that country is even weaker.

The UK government on the other hand should know the situation in NI intimately, it's their territory after all, and they claim to care deeply about it.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm

March 2018

“Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has said that people claiming Brexit could lead to a return to the Troubles in Northern Ireland are "almost encouraging violence".”
...
“ He told The House: "I think it's a politically unappealing and cynical approach to suggest that violence may be a consequence of not doing what the pro-Europeans want, and they should think whether that is a wise approach to take.

"Once you start proposing that violence may be a consequence of something, you're almost encouraging violence. So, people making that argument should think very carefully about the wisdom of that argument."”

https://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2 ... e-1279764/

That didn’t age well. There’s a lesson somewhere in there about trusting Brexiteers’ judgment.
 
johns624
Posts: 4272
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:39 pm

Geez, maybe Northern Ireland should secede and join the US. They seem to be acting like us and not the rest of "enlightened" Europe! :lol: :lol:
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:48 pm

A101 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

What did you really think was going to happen

This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code


The EU didn’t force the UK to put a border down the Irish Sea. Or do anything for that matter.

Johnson agreed to it - voluntarily.

Brexiteers voted for it - voluntarily.

The UK parliament ratified it - voluntarily.

No Brexit = no border down the Irish Sea = none of these shenanigans.

Without Brexit, none of this would be happening.

Ergo, Brexit and Brexiteers own it. Pottery Barn rules - you break it; you own it.
 
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Dutchy
Topic Author
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
Geez, maybe Northern Ireland should secede and join the US. They seem to be acting like us and not the rest of "enlightened" Europe! :lol: :lol:

I am not entirely sure of what you mean by this. One can interpret this in so many ways ;-)
 
A101
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:07 pm

GDB wrote:
A101 wrote:
GDB wrote:

No, we did this to ourselves, well a small majority did, though the deeply ingrained habit of blaming 'Europe' for all our self inflicted problems is nothing new, in fact it made the whole mad idea possible, over decades of this BS. From such reputable sources as The Sun, Daily Express and Daily Mail.
You may have seen on the EU Vaccines thread, that I will not defend them when I think they are in the wrong, though it's also worth remembering that they in Brussels know Johnson all too well, before most of the British public did in fact, as a writer based there for the very unfriendly to the EU Daily Telegraph, his missives were so full of outrageous lies that even they had to sack him.
As did all subsequent bosses of his, all Tories to a man.
So it is hardly surprising when this buffoon becomes PM after all his plotting and undermining of a PM who I did not like, though who at least was not an overgrown, overindulged brat, he is not taken seriously there, as he is not a serious person.
He has lied and lied to the people of N.I.
So they join a very large club.
Fact is the 'great British Public' mostly know sod all about N.I. This ironically has been in large part a consequence of the GFA.
Still, didn't 'Boris' offer to build them a bridge to Scotland?


Sorry I do not agree with what you wrote, there is nothing in the Belfast agreement the proclaims that the UK must remain in the EU to honour the treaty. The UK electorate were given a vote on EU membership the majority voted no.

The seeds of the current predicament were sown by PM May in her attempt to mitigate and appease Brussels which was exactly the wrong decision instead of grasping the opportunities of removing ourselves from the Brussels bureaucracy and forging policy in UK interests.Where the May government went wrong was in thinking that the WA had to be a document on how the EU/UK would be tied together after the divorce instead of being strictly a financial document of the splitting liabilities nothing more nothing less.


Tell that to the fishing communities who largely voted Leave, now facing devastation and of course, indifference from the likes of Johnson and Farage, or the port workers, or the fact that between Leave winning and Covid, inward investment to the UK fell off a cliff. It wasn't just Elon Musk who switched plans to open a large battery factory from a deprived part of Greater Manchester to Germany, he said why.

Then the few who supported Brexit as major businessmen.
Ractliff, moved abroad to avoid tax, no longer building his new SUV in Wales but France.
JCB, big Tory donor, new £400M plant planned, in Germany.
Dyson, that POS has entirely moved his HQ and new investments, out of the UK.

But many SME's and Institutions have left the UK with great reluctance and forced to economically, those who paid their taxes. Some of the larger ones the UK taxpayer now has to bribe to keep them here, for now. This has increased rapidly since Jan.

Please don't try and tell me Johnson had anything in mind in all his dealings other than getting himself to No.10, anyone who has ever had to deal with him can tell you otherwise.
And this is also at the heart of the situation in Northern Ireland.
Just with turbo boosters on.



Everything you brought up has been debated in the old threads and all of it irrelevant to NI border problems.

The EU is largely responsible in its determination to punish the UK for leaving is the catalyst for the mounting pressure now unfolding in NI with its weaponisation of the border issue

Remember François Hollande saying

There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price,


It’s the EU throwing up all the border problems at the moment not the rUK, all these problems are now Brussels problems and can easily be solved with a stroke of a pen
 
johns624
Posts: 4272
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:17 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
Dutchy wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Geez, maybe Northern Ireland should secede and join the US. They seem to be acting like us and not the rest of "enlightened" Europe! :lol: :lol:

I am not entirely sure of what you mean by this. One can interpret this in so many ways ;-)
We are constantly being preached to as to what a violent society we have. They seem to fit right in. I didn't know that Europeans could be like us. We're like cousins... They even seem to like their Armalites, just like us!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23456
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Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:21 pm

Only one person to blame for this, Boris Johnson and his beloved Brexit. Only a matter of time before we see the unrest spill oer to the mainland.
 
johns624
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:25 pm

    gkirk wrote:
    Only one person to blame for this, Boris Johnson and his beloved Brexit. Only a matter of time before we see the unrest spill oer to the mainland.
    We ain't coming over to sort it out this time. Whether "late" like we're always accused or "on time"!
     
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    Dutchy
    Topic Author
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:59 pm

    johns624 wrote:
    [photoid][/photoid]
    Dutchy wrote:
    johns624 wrote:
    Geez, maybe Northern Ireland should secede and join the US. They seem to be acting like us and not the rest of "enlightened" Europe! :lol: :lol:

    I am not entirely sure of what you mean by this. One can interpret this in so many ways ;-)
    We are constantly being preached to as to what a violent society we have. They seem to fit right in. I didn't know that Europeans could be like us. We're like cousins... They even seem to like their Armalites, just like us!


    A bit of history: Europe has a very violent past. Institutionalized: fighting among nations. Only after 1945, things calmed down after 2.400 years of war. Don't mention the war. Perhaps you want to look at terrorism within Europe: 1835-present day. One of the key motivations to start the pre-assessor to the European Union, stop the fighting and the violence within the European continent.
    The main difference is that within Europe violence seems to be politically motivated and less so in the US.

    Anyhow, let's pray that things don't get back to the troubles, Total dead: 3,532, total injured: 47,500+, over a 30 year period, the late 1960s–1998.
     
    johns624
    Posts: 4272
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:02 pm

    I'm well aware of Europe's history. I'm just having some fun, is all. We get dumped on, a little turnabout is fair play.
     
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    Dutchy
    Topic Author
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:04 pm

    johns624 wrote:
    I'm well aware of Europe's history. I'm just having some fun, is all. We get dumped on, a little turnabout is fair play.


    right, not quite as funny as one might think then.
     
    A101
    Posts: 2576
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:04 pm

    ElPistolero wrote:
    The EU didn’t force the UK to put a border down the Irish Sea. Or do anything for that matter.

    It certainly applied the pressure for it, the Irish Sea Border was the original idea of the EU not the UK’s
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Johnson agreed to it - voluntarily.

    Geez, I got a laugh out of that one, it was far from voluntarily, back into a corner by a hostile Parliament and EU
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Brexiteers voted for it - voluntarily.

    The Electorate voted to leave yes, agree
    ElPistolero wrote:
    The UK parliament ratified it - voluntarily.

    Yes, they did after a GE, but an awful WA agreed to prior. I would have rather taken the browbeating for reneging on the deal though totally awful deal and not needed
    ElPistolero wrote:
    No Brexit = no border down the Irish Sea = none of these shenanigans.

    Just plain wrong Brexit is not the problem EU/ROI refusal to cooperate effectively is the problem. the WA breeches the Belfast agreement in itself, North/South EU/UK cooperation would have solved the issue. After all a border existed before Brexit and functioned EU dismantled that.
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Without Brexit, none of this would be happening.

    Well, that’s a truism, but it doesn’t mean Brexit should not have happened, all it means it was handled very badly from a political point of view from both sides. As they say a breakdown of diplomacy


    ElPistolero wrote:
    Ergo, Brexit and Brexiteers own it. Pottery Barn rules - you break it; you own it

    LOL, NI a pottery barn very simplistic of you
     
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    c933103
    Posts: 5812
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:04 pm

    A101 wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

    Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
    Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
    He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


    This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

    What did you really think was going to happen

    This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code

    But Ireland is a member of EU? This proposal would force Ireland leave the EU without them desiring so
     
    A101
    Posts: 2576
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:05 pm

    gkirk wrote:
    Only one person to blame for this, Boris Johnson and his beloved Brexit. Only a matter of time before we see the unrest spill oer to the mainland.


    There was more than one cook in making this mess
     
    A101
    Posts: 2576
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:06 pm

    c933103 wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    Thanks Leave voters and don't say you were not warned that Brexit could have serious affects of the 1998 Peace agreement, it was warned of throughout that campaign, you were told by those with the experience and knowledge to do so. Which of course did not concern the malcontent spackers obsessed with 'bloody foreigners' taking the jobs they had no inclination to ever apply for, much less do. Nor the corrupt snake oil salesmen selling the big lie.

    Worse, the majority of those in N.I. voted remain, however the Unionist party ignored it.
    Then they only went and trusted Alexander DePiffiel Boris Johnson, who unseated May in part due to his sabotaging any progress made in talks with the EU, including specifically the border question.
    He then went on to throw them under the bus even more.


    This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

    What did you really think was going to happen

    This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code

    But Ireland is a member of EU? This proposal would force Ireland leave the EU without them desiring so


    No it would not, how do you come to this conclusion?
     
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    c933103
    Posts: 5812
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm

    A101 wrote:
    c933103 wrote:
    A101 wrote:

    This is also on the EU not just those wanting to leave the EU. It was fortold in the Brexit threads that a border down the Irish Sea could also see a return to violence. The EU is doing everything to make life difficult for the rUK in respects to its internal market

    What did you really think was going to happen

    This could have been averted in its entirety by using Article XXI from the WTO for trade between North/South NI never had to be placed under EU customs code

    But Ireland is a member of EU? This proposal would force Ireland leave the EU without them desiring so


    No it would not, how do you come to this conclusion?

    One of the principle of EU is free movement of goods between its member states, and Ireland is one of its member states.

    Rest of EU←→Ireland←→North Ireland←→Rest of UK
    In this chain of entities, since (rest of) UK decided they will not follow EU's trade regulation, there must be some sort of barrier between UK and EU, checking whether the goods being imported by either parties from another is up to their trade regulation or not. Else Europe will have to accept everything UK accept and UK will have to accept everything EU accept, breaking the function of trade regulation.
    Putting the barrier between EU and Ireland would effectively force Republic of Ireland, a sovereign country, to follow UK version trade code instead of EU's, and thus breaking Ireland out of EU's custom union and trade regulation
    And thus the only viable option is to put the trade barrier somewhere between Dublin and London, and the solution can only be either south of N.Ireland or east of N.Ireland.
    Last edited by c933103 on Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    ElPistolero
    Posts: 2404
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:30 pm

    A101 wrote:
    ElPistolero wrote:
    The EU didn’t force the UK to put a border down the Irish Sea. Or do anything for that matter.

    It certainly applied the pressure for it, the Irish Sea Border was the original idea of the EU not the UK’s
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Johnson agreed to it - voluntarily.

    Geez, I got a laugh out of that one, it was far from voluntarily, back into a corner by a hostile Parliament and EU
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Brexiteers voted for it - voluntarily.

    The Electorate voted to leave yes, agree
    ElPistolero wrote:
    The UK parliament ratified it - voluntarily.

    Yes, they did after a GE, but an awful WA agreed to prior. I would have rather taken the browbeating for reneging on the deal though totally awful deal and not needed
    ElPistolero wrote:
    No Brexit = no border down the Irish Sea = none of these shenanigans.

    Just plain wrong Brexit is not the problem EU/ROI refusal to cooperate effectively is the problem. the WA breeches the Belfast agreement in itself, North/South EU/UK cooperation would have solved the issue. After all a border existed before Brexit and functioned EU dismantled that.
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Without Brexit, none of this would be happening.

    Well, that’s a truism, but it doesn’t mean Brexit should not have happened, all it means it was handled very badly from a political point of view from both sides. As they say a breakdown of diplomacy


    ElPistolero wrote:
    Ergo, Brexit and Brexiteers own it. Pottery Barn rules - you break it; you own it

    LOL, NI a pottery barn very simplistic of you


    The UK left the EU; the EU didn’t ask it to leave. Under these circumstances, there is no diplomatic convention or tradition that requires the EU to do whatever the UK wants it to do to solve a problem created by the UK’s choice. The EU is well within its rights to protect its own interests given the open hostility it faced from Brexiteers.

    This has nothing to do with whether Brexit should or should not have happened. It merely reflects the reality that Brexit has happened and that it’s consequences are the responsibility of its instigator. Brexiteers may not have voted for this specific outcome, but it was always a possible outcome of what Brexiteers voted for. If they, like Rees-Mogg, refused to admit it to themselves when they voted the way they did, that’s their problem. Not remainers. Not the EUs.

    Brexiteers own this.
     
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    Dutchy
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:33 pm

    c933103 wrote:
    One of the principle of EU is free movement of goods between its member states, and Ireland is one of its member states.

    Rest of EU←→Ireland←→North Ireland←→Rest of UK
    In this chain of entities, since (rest of) UK decided they will not follow EU's trade regulation, there must be some sort of barrier between UK and EU, checking whether the goods being imported by either parties from another is up to their trade regulation or not. Else Europe will have to accept everything UK accept and UK will have to avcept everything EU accept, breaking the function of trade regulation.
    Putting the barrier between EU and Ireland would effectively force Republic of Ireland, a sovereign country, to follow UK version trade code instead of EU's, and thus breaking Ireland out of EU's custom union and trade regulation
    And thus the only viable option is to put the trade barrier somewhere between Dublin and London, and the solution can only be either south of N.Ireland or east of N.Ireland.


    you are quite correct. A good understanding of the complex situation of Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the EU and the UK is in at the moment.
     
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    Aaron747
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:08 pm

    c933103 wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    c933103 wrote:
    But Ireland is a member of EU? This proposal would force Ireland leave the EU without them desiring so


    No it would not, how do you come to this conclusion?

    One of the principle of EU is free movement of goods between its member states, and Ireland is one of its member states.

    Rest of EU←→Ireland←→North Ireland←→Rest of UK
    In this chain of entities, since (rest of) UK decided they will not follow EU's trade regulation, there must be some sort of barrier between UK and EU, checking whether the goods being imported by either parties from another is up to their trade regulation or not. Else Europe will have to accept everything UK accept and UK will have to accept everything EU accept, breaking the function of trade regulation.
    Putting the barrier between EU and Ireland would effectively force Republic of Ireland, a sovereign country, to follow UK version trade code instead of EU's, and thus breaking Ireland out of EU's custom union and trade regulation
    And thus the only viable option is to put the trade barrier somewhere between Dublin and London, and the solution can only be either south of N.Ireland or east of N.Ireland.


    Excellent summation of the challenge here. Also the extent of BoJo’s ignorance and indifference.
     
    A101
    Posts: 2576
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    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:35 pm

    ElPistolero wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    ElPistolero wrote:
    The EU didn’t force the UK to put a border down the Irish Sea. Or do anything for that matter.

    It certainly applied the pressure for it, the Irish Sea Border was the original idea of the EU not the UK’s
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Johnson agreed to it - voluntarily.

    Geez, I got a laugh out of that one, it was far from voluntarily, back into a corner by a hostile Parliament and EU
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Brexiteers voted for it - voluntarily.

    The Electorate voted to leave yes, agree
    ElPistolero wrote:
    The UK parliament ratified it - voluntarily.

    Yes, they did after a GE, but an awful WA agreed to prior. I would have rather taken the browbeating for reneging on the deal though totally awful deal and not needed
    ElPistolero wrote:
    No Brexit = no border down the Irish Sea = none of these shenanigans.

    Just plain wrong Brexit is not the problem EU/ROI refusal to cooperate effectively is the problem. the WA breeches the Belfast agreement in itself, North/South EU/UK cooperation would have solved the issue. After all a border existed before Brexit and functioned EU dismantled that.
    ElPistolero wrote:
    Without Brexit, none of this would be happening.

    Well, that’s a truism, but it doesn’t mean Brexit should not have happened, all it means it was handled very badly from a political point of view from both sides. As they say a breakdown of diplomacy


    ElPistolero wrote:
    Ergo, Brexit and Brexiteers own it. Pottery Barn rules - you break it; you own it

    LOL, NI a pottery barn very simplistic of you


    The UK left the EU; the EU didn’t ask it to leave. Under these circumstances, there is no diplomatic convention or tradition that requires the EU to do whatever the UK wants it to do to solve a problem created by the UK’s choice. The EU is well within its rights to protect its own interests given the open hostility it faced from Brexiteers.

    This has nothing to do with whether Brexit should or should not have happened. It merely reflects the reality that Brexit has happened and that it’s consequences are the responsibility of its instigator. Brexiteers may not have voted for this specific outcome, but it was always a possible outcome of what Brexiteers voted for. If they, like Rees-Mogg, refused to admit it to themselves when they voted the way they did, that’s their problem. Not remainers. Not the EUs.

    Brexiteers own this.


    You and I will never agree on the matter, but no one is saying that either side had to pull there pants down and take from the other. What happening in NI is all about Pro-remain trying to overturn the decision and turning the border issue into bigger than ben-hur when there was no need for it.

    The negotiations for the EU and NI was trying to look tough so other do not get the same idea. But fundamentally you are right the EU was looking after its own interest not NI
     
    A101
    Posts: 2576
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:50 pm

    c933103 wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    c933103 wrote:
    But Ireland is a member of EU? This proposal would force Ireland leave the EU without them desiring so


    No it would not, how do you come to this conclusion?

    One of the principle of EU is free movement of goods between its member states, and Ireland is one of its member states.

    Rest of EU←→Ireland←→North Ireland←→Rest of UK
    In this chain of entities, since (rest of) UK decided they will not follow EU's trade regulation, there must be some sort of barrier between UK and EU, checking whether the goods being imported by either parties from another is up to their trade regulation or not. Else Europe will have to accept everything UK accept and UK will have to accept everything EU accept, breaking the function of trade regulation.
    Putting the barrier between EU and Ireland would effectively force Republic of Ireland, a sovereign country, to follow UK version trade code instead of EU's, and thus breaking Ireland out of EU's custom union and trade regulation
    And thus the only viable option is to put the trade barrier somewhere between Dublin and London, and the solution can only be either south of N.Ireland or east of N.Ireland.



    Here where you are wrong the rUK still follows EU standards as per the WA, the EU is looking at future divergence irrespective whether Brussels moves the goal posts or rUK

    irrespective if ROI/NI differ in the future north south cooperation can monitor goods movement into and on the Island. as I said before a border was in affect before Brexit with some electronic infrastructure. the issue required cooperation from both side it was Brussels whom refused that not the UK
     
    johns624
    Posts: 4272
    Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:37 am

    Dutchy wrote:
    johns624 wrote:
    I'm well aware of Europe's history. I'm just having some fun, is all. We get dumped on, a little turnabout is fair play.


    right, not quite as funny as one might think then.
    Where's your sense of humour? When we have problems here in the States, all of our European members dump on us and we just have to live with it. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's "not quite as funny". Boo-hoo!
     
    ElPistolero
    Posts: 2404
    Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:56 am

    A101 wrote:
    You and I will never agree on the matter, but no one is saying that either side had to pull there pants down and take from the other. What happening in NI is all about Pro-remain trying to overturn the decision and turning the border issue into bigger than ben-hur when there was no need for it.

    The negotiations for the EU and NI was trying to look tough so other do not get the same idea. But fundamentally you are right the EU was looking after its own interest not NI


    Whether we agree or not has no bearing on the facts.

    Brexiteers made it clear that they were willing to abandon the union - the Brexit-at-any-cost types who would prefer NI and Scotland and NI leave the union as long as they got their purist Brexit.

    June 2019:

    “Asked whether they would rather avert Brexit if it would lead to Scotland or Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK, respectively 63% and 59% of party members would be willing to pay for Brexit with the breakup of the United Kingdom.”

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... 19_mindset

    The EU looked out for its member state RoI throughout. Brexiteers made it clear they’d throw NI under the bus at the first sign of trouble. Hardly a surprise then that they didn’t think twice about creating in the Irish Sea.

    Brexiteers can pretend otherwise, but it doesn’t change what they proudly proclaimed in the past. If NI was dispensable for Brexiteers then, it’s dispensable now.

    If Unionists are angry about that, Brexiteers own it.
     
    User avatar
    c933103
    Posts: 5812
    Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 am

    A101 wrote:
    Here where you are wrong the rUK still follows EU standards as per the WA, the EU is looking at future divergence irrespective whether Brussels moves the goal posts or rUK

    1. According to my memory, it was being offered that, if UK promise it will still follow EU trade regulations after Brexit, then the entire UK can can still remain within in EU custom union. But UK rejected it, as it would mean UK losing all autonomy on trade regulation and it will also have no say on trade regulation due to exited the European Union, hence it cannot guarantee UK trade regulation will always be consistent with EU's requirement, and thus custom check is needed between EU and UK.
    2. According to the news https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/uk ... l-property , UK have already rejected some upcoming EU trade regulations.
    irrespective if ROI/NI differ in the future north south cooperation can monitor goods movement into and on the Island.

    This is called a custom check
    as I said before a border was in affect before Brexit with some electronic infrastructure.

    A digital custom check is still a custom check
    the issue required cooperation from both side it was Brussels whom refused that not the UK

    UK can work with EU to simplify the custom check procedure but custom check is still custom check.
     
    User avatar
    qf789
    Moderator
    Posts: 12019
    Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

    Re: Riots in Northern Ireland: situation dangerous

    Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:34 am

    Topic has drifted off topic and will be locked

    Just a reminder that we made our position clear regarding Brexit and expect that to be followed

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