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kitplane01
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Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:11 pm

Where I work (and where my children work), there are programs to recruit and help people of underrepresented races/genders/etc. How common is this among airlines?

People: Last time this was posted, the thread was correctly banned because (1) people did politics and (2) people got very insulting. Please don't do that!
I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with these policies .. I'm asking of they exist and what they say.

Mods: It would be awesome if you allowed the reasonable posts and only banned the bad ones.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:14 pm

it exists, but not something that is generally "published" or made known. I recently worked at an airline and had an HR leader tell me (while we were at happy hour) that I needed to change departments if I wanted a promotion due to the makeup of current leaders underneath the VP, and there simply was not going to be consideration for me.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:16 pm

Seems to be pretty active among airlines, even the regional carriers. A search pulls up some articles about the majors, and some regionals, doing more to push for this in their hiring practices. You could probably go right to the careers page of air carriers and even find more links or statements about their own initiatives and reporting.

The same search also pulls up a current search for a manager of diversity & inclusion at Endeavor.
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kitplane01
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:37 pm

The first reply tells me these programs are often not public. The second one tells me to check web sites. Arg!

Does the hiring of pilots or other employees typically use a points system? And if so, are there points for being members of various groups? Yeah
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:21 pm

Affirmative action in the public arena is illegal in many states including large ones like California.

Private companies should tread very carefully if they attempt to use race and gender as hiring or promotion criteria. Also irony is that a white male might be considered the minority in parts of the country already.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:34 pm

janders wrote:
Affirmative action in the public arena is illegal in many states including large ones like California.

Private companies should tread very carefully if they attempt to use race and gender as hiring or promotion criteria. Also irony is that a white male might be considered the minority in parts of the country already.


Affirmative Action is required from federal contractors of a certain size. Many airlines are federal contractors (for example, airlines that carry US mail or that are part of the US Civil Reserve Airfleet) and they are required to have measurable affirmative action plans.

https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/hiring/affirmativeact

https://www.employer.gov/EmploymentIssu ... Reporting/
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:59 pm

janders wrote:
Affirmative action in the public arena is illegal in many states including large ones like California.

Private companies should tread very carefully if they attempt to use race and gender as hiring or promotion criteria. Also irony is that a white male might be considered the minority in parts of the country already.


You’re correct in that there are fields and local markets where traditional non-minority candidates are underrepresented. For example, I’ve seen affirmative action plans where males are underrepresented in nursing, teaching, and human resources roles. Women have historically been underrepresented in STEM fields.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:03 pm

janders wrote:
Affirmative action in the public arena is illegal in many states including large ones like California.

Private companies should tread very carefully if they attempt to use race and gender as hiring or promotion criteria. Also irony is that a white male might be considered the minority in parts of the country already.


Sorry, name me one industry (that's highly skilled and high-paying) or part of the country where white males are in the minority in terms of leadership and influence. I doubt that you can name a single one. Look at the representation of leaders in both government and private industry and you'll find that white males are significantly overrepresented.

Jeremy
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:11 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Where I work (and where my children work), there are programs to recruit and help people of underrepresented races/genders/etc. How common is this among airlines?

People: Last time this was posted, the thread was correctly banned because (1) people did politics and (2) people got very insulting. Please don't do that!
I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with these policies .. I'm asking of they exist and what they say.

Mods: It would be awesome if you allowed the reasonable posts and only banned the bad ones.


It is relatively common among U.S. airlines because all federal contractors of a certain size are required to have affirmative action plans. The US3 + AS are definitely all federal contractors (examples include carrying US mail, participation in the U.S. Civil Reserve Fleet). I’m unsure about whether WN, B6, and all of the the ULCC’s are federal contractors.

https://www.employer.gov/EmploymentIssu ... Reporting/
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:32 pm

janders wrote:

Affirmative action in the public arena is illegal in many states including large ones like California.

Private companies should tread very carefully if they attempt to use race and gender as hiring or promotion criteria. Also irony is that a white male might be considered the minority in parts of the country already.


I was up for a promotion at work several years ago, and my supervisor told be there was an "unwritten rule" that promotions rotated on white man/any woman/any person of color (that qualified). Sure enough I got the promotion when "my turn" came up. I didn't feel slighted in the least. White guy here.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:35 pm

People. Please stop debating affermative action.! That’s NOT what was asked!
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Unfortunately, this thread will go down the same rabbit hole that they always do painting a false picture of companies passing up qualified candidates for less qualified or unqualified candidates because of their race, which is not the reality. UA is trying to increase outreach and break down barriers to entry in the industry, how that's controversial is beyond me. It's no different than companies pushing initiatives to increase female presentation is science, mathematics, engineering. All of which is a good thing.

Jeremy


There's forty years of Supreme Court rulings with which a few people seem unfamiliar. Since major U.S. airlines engage in interstate transit, state laws will be superseded by national law. Delta can tell Michigan to go pound sand.

Relevant Court rulings have accepted use of race as one factor among several. These programs certainly aren't secret. Companies aren't trying to hide it. Lots of Fortune 500 companies will have someone with a title like 'Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer.' Anybody at UA know of Jessica Kimbrough?

https://hub.united.com/jessica-kimbroug ... 84984.html

OP should review this NYT overview and Gratz v. Bollinger specifically.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/30/us/a ... court.html

No rigid points system.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:37 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Where I work (and where my children work), there are programs to recruit and help people of underrepresented races/genders/etc. How common is this among airlines?

People: Last time this was posted, the thread was correctly banned because (1) people did politics and (2) people got very insulting. Please don't do that!
I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with these policies .. I'm asking of they exist and what they say.

Mods: It would be awesome if you allowed the reasonable posts and only banned the bad ones.

Do you mean Affirmative Action in the US sense or internationally?

I have to be careful not to name names, but it certainly isn't the case in some parts of the world, where pilots are hired based on their families being "friendly" with those in high positions in the airline, especially when they are government owned. It sadly is also the case with one airline that one recruiter selects flight attendants (female ones at least) for training based on their looks and has a particular preference for those based in Eastern Europe/Russia. Nothing more needs to be said about that!

In a perfect world, people would get ahead in life based on their individual merit.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:50 pm

Yes, for any Malaysian airlines there is a form of affirmative action in favour of the Malays (the largest ethnic group, over 60% of the country’s population).

I worked in Kaula Lumpur 20 years ago and my fellow expats from Texas, were dumbfounded by the Malaysian concept of affirmative action. Trust me, these WASP guys who are Republicans and own at least 3 guns, changed their views on the American affirmative action policies. There is a quota for Malays for everything from properties, education (up to 80%), jobs to banking service discounts. For every form/application one has to fill your race and religion and I do mean every. And a business has to provide the percentage of Malays under their employment including management.

The European multinational company that I worked for in Kuala Lumpur was fully aware that I am a Jedi and believes in the Force.

My cable provider in Malaysia was sensitive to my religious leaning since I am a Hobbit and believes in The Ring.

And finally, Malaysian Airlines frequent miles program Enrich, are a bit confused due to me being an Irish Jew.

Note: I am an Australian of Indian background who identifies himself as a Hindu.
My comments are based as an aviation enthusiast first, then as a passenger who paid for his own ticket, after that a passenger on a business trip and finally an armchair CEO.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:47 am

Actually if you look back at it the airline industry was probably ahead of the curve when it came to integration and affirmative action. I see nothing good coming from this some mods please lock it down NOW.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:19 am

It always going to depend on how it is worded. Personally, I work in a female heavy leadership group (both my director that I immediately report to and the managing director are females) and two of my direct counterparts are female (there are four of us total so it is 50%) but none of them got there because they were female, they got there because of the merits and I'm pretty sure that if they were championed as some sort of success story for an affirmative action it would come across as diminishing their merits.

Rather than outward/external focused programs it would be a lot better to see internal programs focused on improving the skills of those from under/un-represented groups. Sure it doesn't generate the PR that outward programs do but it likely generates better results and your employees benefit from seeing growth from the inside.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:21 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Where I work (and where my children work), there are programs to recruit and help people of underrepresented races/genders/etc. How common is this among airlines?

People: Last time this was posted, the thread was correctly banned because (1) people did politics and (2) people got very insulting. Please don't do that!
I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with these policies .. I'm asking of they exist and what they say.

Mods: It would be awesome if you allowed the reasonable posts and only banned the bad ones.


The simple answer is: yes, these programs exist, and both executives and HR managers have determined they are necessary owing to both legal and business requirements. There isn't much more to be said other than the existence of such programs obviously makes people very upset, often because they don't understand what they actually do/are for.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:27 am

alasizon wrote:
It always going to depend on how it is worded. Personally, I work in a female heavy leadership group (both my director that I immediately report to and the managing director are females) and two of my direct counterparts are female (there are four of us total so it is 50%) but none of them got there because they were female, they got there because of the merits and I'm pretty sure that if they were championed as some sort of success story for an affirmative action it would come across as diminishing their merits.

Rather than outward/external focused programs it would be a lot better to see internal programs focused on improving the skills of those from under/un-represented groups. Sure it doesn't generate the PR that outward programs do but it likely generates better results and your employees benefit from seeing growth from the inside.


One reason programs are targeted externally is to broaden the horizons of workgroups and spur along company evolution. Extensive studies of organizational behavior have shown employee groups largely derived from similar educational and life experience backgrounds have a gradual but impactful effect on reducing critical thinking and stifling innovation. Complacency is like a tumor in an organization - once it sets in, it will only grow unless remedied. Bringing in qualified persons from less traditional recruiting backgrounds is now a widely accepted remedy throughout the HR industry and comprises the overall strategy of diversity programs.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:44 am

Aaron747 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
It always going to depend on how it is worded. Personally, I work in a female heavy leadership group (both my director that I immediately report to and the managing director are females) and two of my direct counterparts are female (there are four of us total so it is 50%) but none of them got there because they were female, they got there because of the merits and I'm pretty sure that if they were championed as some sort of success story for an affirmative action it would come across as diminishing their merits.

Rather than outward/external focused programs it would be a lot better to see internal programs focused on improving the skills of those from under/un-represented groups. Sure it doesn't generate the PR that outward programs do but it likely generates better results and your employees benefit from seeing growth from the inside.


One reason programs are targeted externally is to broaden the horizons of workgroups and spur along company evolution. Extensive studies of organizational behavior have shown employee groups largely derived from similar educational and life experience backgrounds have a gradual but impactful effect on reducing critical thinking and stifling innovation. Complacency is like a tumor in an organization - once it sets in, it will only grow unless remedied. Bringing in qualified persons from less traditional recruiting backgrounds is now a widely accepted remedy throughout the HR industry and comprises the overall strategy of diversity programs.


My issue is more so that people from different backgrounds that are already inside the company need the support to - don't get me wrong, I am all for people coming from less privileged backgrounds into our industry (diverse insights are extremely important) but even if they come in at X level/area, there needs to be a path for them to develop the skills to get them to Y level/area if that is where they would/could benefit the company the most as opposed to just watching external candidate after external candidate (regardless of background) come in and fill vacant spots. Often times internal programs are one size fits most/all while external programs certainly are not.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:11 am

alasizon wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
It always going to depend on how it is worded. Personally, I work in a female heavy leadership group (both my director that I immediately report to and the managing director are females) and two of my direct counterparts are female (there are four of us total so it is 50%) but none of them got there because they were female, they got there because of the merits and I'm pretty sure that if they were championed as some sort of success story for an affirmative action it would come across as diminishing their merits.

Rather than outward/external focused programs it would be a lot better to see internal programs focused on improving the skills of those from under/un-represented groups. Sure it doesn't generate the PR that outward programs do but it likely generates better results and your employees benefit from seeing growth from the inside.


One reason programs are targeted externally is to broaden the horizons of workgroups and spur along company evolution. Extensive studies of organizational behavior have shown employee groups largely derived from similar educational and life experience backgrounds have a gradual but impactful effect on reducing critical thinking and stifling innovation. Complacency is like a tumor in an organization - once it sets in, it will only grow unless remedied. Bringing in qualified persons from less traditional recruiting backgrounds is now a widely accepted remedy throughout the HR industry and comprises the overall strategy of diversity programs.


My issue is more so that people from different backgrounds that are already inside the company need the support to - don't get me wrong, I am all for people coming from less privileged backgrounds into our industry (diverse insights are extremely important) but even if they come in at X level/area, there needs to be a path for them to develop the skills to get them to Y level/area if that is where they would/could benefit the company the most as opposed to just watching external candidate after external candidate (regardless of background) come in and fill vacant spots. Often times internal programs are one size fits most/all while external programs certainly are not.


That's a valid criticism, but most of the MBAs running the bean counting operation in companies these days tend to see training as an expendable cost to be minimized AMAP.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:52 am

As per the OP question,I believe Air India (as a govt. dept.) is required to participate in such a program, the result being you now have some cabin crew who can barely speak English and really shouldn't be there (although it would help if the company gave these staff English language lessons).
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:37 pm

Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


It means different things in different places. EOE and AA are *not* the same thing in the US as well.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:00 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


It means different things in different places. EOE and AA are *not* the same thing in the US as well.


Are we more into gender-quota territory then?
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


It means different things in different places. EOE and AA are *not* the same thing in the US as well.


Are we more into gender-quota territory then?


Without a specific context it's difficult to answer.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:38 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
Actually if you look back at it the airline industry was probably ahead of the curve when it came to integration and affirmative action. I see nothing good coming from this some mods please lock it down NOW.

If you have a more civilized place to discuss such questions, let us know.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Extensive studies of organizational behavior have shown employee groups largely derived from similar educational and life experience backgrounds have a gradual but impactful effect on reducing critical thinking and stifling innovation.

That's something to think about.
Makes me think of the (usually) 2 party "first past the post" voting system versus party list proportional representation.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:22 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
Actually if you look back at it the airline industry was probably ahead of the curve when it came to integration and affirmative action. I see nothing good coming from this some mods please lock it down NOW.


In the country of Australia, which is a nation which is one of the first to grant female suffrage, one of the two major airlines fought a legal battle to keep women out of the flight deck in the late 70s/80s. They claimed women were too weak and menstrual cycles made them unsuitable to be pilots.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Lawrie
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:26 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
People. Please stop debating affermative action.! That’s NOT what was asked!


In the United States it is almost impossible to discuss Affirmative Action without being political.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:32 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
Actually if you look back at it the airline industry was probably ahead of the curve when it came to integration and affirmative action. I see nothing good coming from this some mods please lock it down NOW.


In the country of Australia, which is a nation which is one of the first to grant female suffrage, one of the two major airlines fought a legal battle to keep women out of the flight deck in the late 70s/80s. They claimed women were too weak and menstrual cycles made them unsuitable to be pilots.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Lawrie


Did not know her story - thanks. What a ridiculous argument to bring to a court.
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
Actually if you look back at it the airline industry was probably ahead of the curve when it came to integration and affirmative action. I see nothing good coming from this some mods please lock it down NOW.


In the country of Australia, which is a nation which is one of the first to grant female suffrage, one of the two major airlines fought a legal battle to keep women out of the flight deck in the late 70s/80s. They claimed women were too weak and menstrual cycles made them unsuitable to be pilots.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Lawrie


Did not know her story - thanks. What a ridiculous argument to bring to a court.


It was ridiculous to argue it in court in 1979. But I’ve heard comments in private conversations of a similar nature in the last few years.

Comments along the lines of saying “we shouldn’t employ too many females as they’ll take too much maternity leave”. Like “uk not against female pilots but the truth is they think differently to men and their method of thinking is not the way pilots should think”.

Truth is the “old boys club” still exists, they are just realising their grip on power is soon ending and they are unhappy about it, which is why you see all this moaning about “affirmative action” from the dinosaurs
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:32 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


No. I believe the closest parallels are the hiring practices in South Africa and India, which prioritize, or mandate, that particular groups be hired in particular ratios. But I would definitely let other people comment more.

But no, Affirmative Action is not "race blind" employment, it is the active use of race as a qualification.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:46 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


No. I believe the closest parallels are the hiring practices in South Africa and India, which prioritize, or mandate, that particular groups be hired in particular ratios. But I would definitely let other people comment more.

But no, Affirmative Action is not "race blind" employment, it is the active use of race as a qualification.


One problem is people call it something similar to what is done in the countries you mention when it isn’t - like Tucker Carlson’s hysterical piece this week about United’s drive to hire women and POC. They are simply setting a goal for recruiting PR to encourage groups who don’t typically think of themselves as pilots to consider applying to the UA aviate program. Carlson made it sound like they are changing pilot standards and dismantling their safety culture. Hence my earlier comment that these programs make people upset when they don’t understand what they actually do.

https://youtu.be/mGroUS5OcYE
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Affirmative action, is that what would be called equal opportunities employment outside the US?


No. I believe the closest parallels are the hiring practices in South Africa and India, which prioritize, or mandate, that particular groups be hired in particular ratios. But I would definitely let other people comment more.

But no, Affirmative Action is not "race blind" employment, it is the active use of race as a qualification.


One problem is people call it something similar to what is done in the countries you mention when it isn’t - like Tucker Carlson’s hysterical piece this week about United’s drive to hire women and POC. They are simply setting a goal for recruiting PR to encourage groups who don’t typically think of themselves as pilots to consider applying to the UA aviate program. Carlson made it sound like they are changing pilot standards and dismantling their safety culture. Hence my earlier comment that these programs make people upset when they don’t understand what they actually do.

https://youtu.be/mGroUS5OcYE


Tucker Carlson is utterly insignificant. No further comment about that.

The important thing here is not just hiring, but retention and promotion to Captain. This will all now be done with race as a key variable. The alternative - that racial disparities could exist in any situation - of course cannot be tolerated anymore. So, yes, the performance standards will need be different depending on who is taking the test. Likely, the tests will be rewritten in a way that reflects the most important priorities of the company. Those priorities are changing. I love it when people claim nothing is changing, that there is no downside to their system of reasoning. But there is a downside.
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:00 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

No. I believe the closest parallels are the hiring practices in South Africa and India, which prioritize, or mandate, that particular groups be hired in particular ratios. But I would definitely let other people comment more.

But no, Affirmative Action is not "race blind" employment, it is the active use of race as a qualification.


One problem is people call it something similar to what is done in the countries you mention when it isn’t - like Tucker Carlson’s hysterical piece this week about United’s drive to hire women and POC. They are simply setting a goal for recruiting PR to encourage groups who don’t typically think of themselves as pilots to consider applying to the UA aviate program. Carlson made it sound like they are changing pilot standards and dismantling their safety culture. Hence my earlier comment that these programs make people upset when they don’t understand what they actually do.

https://youtu.be/mGroUS5OcYE


Tucker Carlson is utterly insignificant. No further comment about that.

The important thing here is not just hiring, but retention and promotion to Captain. This will all now be done with race as a key variable. The alternative - that racial disparities could exist in any situation - of course cannot be tolerated anymore. So, yes, the performance standards will need be different depending on who is taking the test. Likely, the tests will be rewritten in a way that reflects the most important priorities of the company. Those priorities are changing. I love it when people claim nothing is changing, that there is no downside to their system of reasoning. But there is a downside.


Carlson is not insignificant - he's the top rated primetime host on the top rated news network. His cultural influence is significant amongst his audience. That's what makes his hasty generalizations so irresponsible. He's not an HR expert, nor an airline employee, so it would be useful to STFU without having all the facts.

As for retention and promotion to Captain, there is no indication that will be done with 'race as the key variable'. None of us have access to UAL's HR policies and guidelines, so it's patently illogical to make such a statement. Their stated goal is to have 50% of eventual hirees of their training program be women/POC, but that's if they meet requirements. No mention of Captain promotions anywhere. And anyone familiar with sourcing talent knows that target is impossible with the financial barriers to completing ATP training, which is why it's clearly a recruiting PR statement more than anything. If they can inspire a 15-20% uptick in the number of women deciding to make a go of professional flying, I can't see an iota of harm in that.

https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program ... e-academy/
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readytotaxi
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:27 pm

Are you not allowed to pick the person best qualified to do the task?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:03 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Where I work (and where my children work), there are programs to recruit and help people of underrepresented races/genders/etc. How common is this among airlines?

People: Last time this was posted, the thread was correctly banned because (1) people did politics and (2) people got very insulting. Please don't do that!
I'm not asking if you agree or disagree with these policies .. I'm asking of they exist and what they say.

Mods: It would be awesome if you allowed the reasonable posts and only banned the bad ones.


In the cockpit I want the best people for the job, I don't want diversity hires to fill quotas, if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.

Cabin crew, check in, all the ground front of house positions appears pretty diverse so whats the issue there?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am

Kiwirob wrote:
if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.


Obviously this is not the case - the qualifications cannot change, that's illegal. Also 'natural ability' is an odd thing to introduce when talking about a skillset that requires years of practice. Relatively few pilots are Chuck Yeager-style where stick and rudder ability comes intuitively without formal training. The program simply intends to grow beyond the usual recruiting stream and background. There's nothing wrong with a company wanting its staff to represent its customers and host country better.

Bringing up ground positions is illogical since they don't require years of study and have virtually no associated financial barriers to entry.
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kitplane01
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
People. Please stop debating affermative action.! That’s NOT what was asked!


In the United States it is almost impossible to discuss Affirmative Action without being political.


That's false. "What programs exist" is not political. (I'm so exasperated!)
 
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seb146
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:10 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
People. Please stop debating affermative action.! That’s NOT what was asked!


In the United States it is almost impossible to discuss Affirmative Action without being political.


That's false. "What programs exist" is not political. (I'm so exasperated!)


It is an exhausting topic.

Affirmative Action laws were set up under the government, so they are political. The term "affirmative action" triggers some people, also.

In the United States, there is not much discrimination that companies can do. Many travelers simply want to go from point A to point B quickly and safely. The last flight I was on was HNL-OGG-LAX-OAK. Except for the ground crew "filling the wrong tank" at OGG, the whole trip was uneventful. I don't know the ethnicity, gender, or sexual identity of the flight crew. I didn't know the gender or sexual identity of any of the cabin crew. None of that mattered to me.

On airlines from other countries, I don't know about their hiring practices.
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N757ST
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

One problem is people call it something similar to what is done in the countries you mention when it isn’t - like Tucker Carlson’s hysterical piece this week about United’s drive to hire women and POC. They are simply setting a goal for recruiting PR to encourage groups who don’t typically think of themselves as pilots to consider applying to the UA aviate program. Carlson made it sound like they are changing pilot standards and dismantling their safety culture. Hence my earlier comment that these programs make people upset when they don’t understand what they actually do.

https://youtu.be/mGroUS5OcYE


Tucker Carlson is utterly insignificant. No further comment about that.

The important thing here is not just hiring, but retention and promotion to Captain. This will all now be done with race as a key variable. The alternative - that racial disparities could exist in any situation - of course cannot be tolerated anymore. So, yes, the performance standards will need be different depending on who is taking the test. Likely, the tests will be rewritten in a way that reflects the most important priorities of the company. Those priorities are changing. I love it when people claim nothing is changing, that there is no downside to their system of reasoning. But there is a downside.


Carlson is not insignificant - he's the top rated primetime host on the top rated news network. His cultural influence is significant amongst his audience. That's what makes his hasty generalizations so irresponsible. He's not an HR expert, nor an airline employee, so it would be useful to STFU without having all the facts.

As for retention and promotion to Captain, there is no indication that will be done with 'race as the key variable'. None of us have access to UAL's HR policies and guidelines, so it's patently illogical to make such a statement. Their stated goal is to have 50% of eventual hirees of their training program be women/POC, but that's if they meet requirements. No mention of Captain promotions anywhere. And anyone familiar with sourcing talent knows that target is impossible with the financial barriers to completing ATP training, which is why it's clearly a recruiting PR statement more than anything. If they can inspire a 15-20% uptick in the number of women deciding to make a go of professional flying, I can't see an iota of harm in that.

https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program ... e-academy/



In the United States, promotion to captain is based on seniority and nothing else at EVERY carrier. Color would never be a consideration, it can’t be.

Obviously this is different then initial hire where race can influence hiring practices.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.


Obviously this is not the case - the qualifications cannot change, that's illegal. Also 'natural ability' is an odd thing to introduce when talking about a skillset that requires years of practice. Relatively few pilots are Chuck Yeager-style where stick and rudder ability comes intuitively without formal training. The program simply intends to grow beyond the usual recruiting stream and background. There's nothing wrong with a company wanting its staff to represent its customers and host country better.

Bringing up ground positions is illogical since they don't require years of study and have virtually no associated financial barriers to entry.


Well how they do it and I will use UAL because this is not their first rodeo. UAL lost a discrimination lawsuit and entered into a consent decree this happened around 1994 I know because my cousin was a former USCG C-130 commander and USCG academy graduate with thousands of flight hours and a white male trying to get an interview with UAL and could not. But UAL did hire a white female with 600 hrs and no turbine time who was an Embry Riddle graduate and put her in the FE seat on the DC-10. The requirements for a commercial pilot license is pretty low 250 hrs and can be as low as 190 hrs if they got it an an approved school compared to what a major airline will hire you at is no where near that low but legally they can go that low if they want to get the diversity they want and can't get it any other way. As far as getting to a captain slot that is seniority based and requires at least an ATP which is 1500 hrs.

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/04 ... ng%20pilot.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:11 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.


Obviously this is not the case - the qualifications cannot change, that's illegal. Also 'natural ability' is an odd thing to introduce when talking about a skillset that requires years of practice. Relatively few pilots are Chuck Yeager-style where stick and rudder ability comes intuitively without formal training. The program simply intends to grow beyond the usual recruiting stream and background. There's nothing wrong with a company wanting its staff to represent its customers and host country better.

Bringing up ground positions is illogical since they don't require years of study and have virtually no associated financial barriers to entry.


Well how they do it and I will use UAL because this is not their first rodeo. UAL lost a discrimination lawsuit and entered into a consent decree this happened around 1994 I know because my cousin was a former USCG C-130 commander and USCG academy graduate with thousands of flight hours and a white male trying to get an interview with UAL and could not. But UAL did hire a white female with 600 hrs and no turbine time who was an Embry Riddle graduate and put her in the FE seat on the DC-10. The requirements for a commercial pilot license is pretty low 250 hrs and can be as low as 190 hrs if they got it an an approved school compared to what a major airline will hire you at is no where near that low but legally they can go that low if they want to get the diversity they want and can't get it any other way. As far as getting to a captain slot that is seniority based and requires at least an ATP which is 1500 hrs.

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/04 ... ng%20pilot.


1994 is ancient history in HR. At any rate, the program from what we know is a target and not a formalized policy action. There's a big difference between the two in employment law.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:22 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Obviously this is not the case - the qualifications cannot change, that's illegal. Also 'natural ability' is an odd thing to introduce when talking about a skillset that requires years of practice. Relatively few pilots are Chuck Yeager-style where stick and rudder ability comes intuitively without formal training. The program simply intends to grow beyond the usual recruiting stream and background. There's nothing wrong with a company wanting its staff to represent its customers and host country better.

Bringing up ground positions is illogical since they don't require years of study and have virtually no associated financial barriers to entry.


Well how they do it and I will use UAL because this is not their first rodeo. UAL lost a discrimination lawsuit and entered into a consent decree this happened around 1994 I know because my cousin was a former USCG C-130 commander and USCG academy graduate with thousands of flight hours and a white male trying to get an interview with UAL and could not. But UAL did hire a white female with 600 hrs and no turbine time who was an Embry Riddle graduate and put her in the FE seat on the DC-10. The requirements for a commercial pilot license is pretty low 250 hrs and can be as low as 190 hrs if they got it an an approved school compared to what a major airline will hire you at is no where near that low but legally they can go that low if they want to get the diversity they want and can't get it any other way. As far as getting to a captain slot that is seniority based and requires at least an ATP which is 1500 hrs.

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/04 ... ng%20pilot.


1994 is ancient history in HR. At any rate, the program from what we know is a target and not a formalized policy action. There's a big difference between the two in employment law.


So you don’t read the link, an article from 2021, I presume that’s not ancient history?

to find the 2500 women and minorities with the necessary qualifications they will be bypassing a lot of people who are better qualified.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:35 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Well how they do it and I will use UAL because this is not their first rodeo. UAL lost a discrimination lawsuit and entered into a consent decree this happened around 1994 I know because my cousin was a former USCG C-130 commander and USCG academy graduate with thousands of flight hours and a white male trying to get an interview with UAL and could not. But UAL did hire a white female with 600 hrs and no turbine time who was an Embry Riddle graduate and put her in the FE seat on the DC-10. The requirements for a commercial pilot license is pretty low 250 hrs and can be as low as 190 hrs if they got it an an approved school compared to what a major airline will hire you at is no where near that low but legally they can go that low if they want to get the diversity they want and can't get it any other way. As far as getting to a captain slot that is seniority based and requires at least an ATP which is 1500 hrs.

https://clarion.causeaction.com/2021/04 ... ng%20pilot.


1994 is ancient history in HR. At any rate, the program from what we know is a target and not a formalized policy action. There's a big difference between the two in employment law.


So you don’t read the link, an article from 2021, I presume that’s not ancient history?

to find the 2500 women and minorities with the necessary qualifications they will be bypassing a lot of people who are better qualified.


It’s not an article - it’s a blog screed by a Federalist Society activist who makes wild assumptions without citing evidence. He claims that safety standards may decline, hiree quality may decline, and that the program itself will hire 2500 women and POC. He does not show any detailed policy documents from UAL proving his claims. From what is available in the public realm, again, the program sets a target and aims to achieve it by reducing financial barriers to training for the above groups. Nothing beyond that - no guarantees of employment or promotion, no set changes to evaluation criteria, nada. It’s recruiting PR, not a policy document. Professional adults should be able to tell the difference. :boggled:
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:05 am

seb146 wrote:
The last flight I was on was HNL-OGG-LAX-OAK. Except for the ground crew "filling the wrong tank" at OGG, the whole trip was uneventful. I don't know the ethnicity, gender, or sexual identity of the flight crew. I didn't know the gender or sexual identity of any of the cabin crew. None of that mattered to me.


If everyone in the world had the same attitude as you, it would be a much better place to live.

Who the hell cares that the flight attendant was black or the pilot was a women.
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sierrakilo44
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:20 am

Kiwirob wrote:

In the cockpit I want the best people for the job, I don't want diversity hires to fill quotas, if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.



How do you define "best person for the job"? The attributes of the defines "the best" can vary with personal opinion. Once upon a time airlines just recruited ex military and those with the most existing flight hours. This meant it was almost exclusively male.

Then they switched to more personality based recruitment. Things like communication skills, teamwork skills, maturity, empathy, ability to influence others and suppress egos. Now this is just a personal opinion but I think it is possible that some of those traits would be more naturally observed in women, especially younger women under the age of 25 as the male brain takes longer to mature. Is this why the percentage of women has increased in airlines?, and especially in cadet and ab initio programs as they generally recruit younger people?

So maybe instead of a "quotas" favouring female pilots the increase in women pilots is because of the switch in the attributes and personality an airline is looking for when hiring?
 
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:04 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

In the cockpit I want the best people for the job, I don't want diversity hires to fill quotas, if they're not good enough to get the job based on natural ability they have no place being responsible for the lives behind them.



How do you define "best person for the job"? The attributes of the defines "the best" can vary with personal opinion. Once upon a time airlines just recruited ex military and those with the most existing flight hours. This meant it was almost exclusively male.

Then they switched to more personality based recruitment. Things like communication skills, teamwork skills, maturity, empathy, ability to influence others and suppress egos. Now this is just a personal opinion but I think it is possible that some of those traits would be more naturally observed in women, especially younger women under the age of 25 as the male brain takes longer to mature. Is this why the percentage of women has increased in airlines?, and especially in cadet and ab initio programs as they generally recruit younger people?

So maybe instead of a "quotas" favouring female pilots the increase in women pilots is because of the switch in the attributes and personality an airline is looking for when hiring?


The best person for the job is the best person for the job, it doesn't really matter if they are black, white, pink or blue, male, female or garden gnome, quota or positive discrimination based hiring is stupid and inevitably compromises have to be made.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:15 am

Kiwirob wrote:
..quota or positive discrimination based hiring is stupid and inevitably compromises have to be made.


Are you an HR professional? What experience do you have to make such a definitive and misleading statement? My company has a program to expand STEM hiring for women, and no compromises have been made on candidate quality whatsoever.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Affirmative Action in Airlines

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
..quota or positive discrimination based hiring is stupid and inevitably compromises have to be made.


Are you an HR professional? What experience do you have to make such a definitive and misleading statement? My company has a program to expand STEM hiring for women, and no compromises have been made on candidate quality whatsoever.


Why do I need to be an HR professional to have an opinion? Are you an HR professional?

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