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N583JB
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:05 pm

casinterest wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Training on deescalating issues needs to be done. Training on arresting a suspect and keeping them away from the door to a vehicle. Training on figuring out what a taser is and is not. Many lives were ruined over this, and lessons are not just about police compliance.


How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You get training. You also learn to remember where your taser and your gun are. It isn't Anarchy unless those involved fail to learn from the mistakes and get training to handle these situations better.
Right now their is a police officer facing 2nd degree manslaughter, and a dead man. Training and situational awareness could have helped everyone involved.


You seem to be conflating two things. No one here is arguing that Wright should have been shot. But tazing him definitely would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Yes, this cop made a terrible error....that doesn't mean that cops should just routinely let people go when they try to resist or flee.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm

N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You get training. You also learn to remember where your taser and your gun are. It isn't Anarchy unless those involved fail to learn from the mistakes and get training to handle these situations better.
Right now their is a police officer facing 2nd degree manslaughter, and a dead man. Training and situational awareness could have helped everyone involved.


You seem to be conflating two things. No one here is arguing that Wright should have been shot. But tazing him definitely would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Yes, this cop made a terrible error....that doesn't mean that cops should just routinely let people go when they try to resist or flee.



There are other issues that need to be looked at.
1. How do they keep him away from the car while being arrested
2. How do they approach the arrest to deescalate the situation. Far too often we have cops that treat people horribly , rather than as fellow citizens who have made poor decisions, and there is a difference.
3. In the Tazing, there is something particularly wrong in that she grabbed the wrong weapon. Was it in the wrong holster, or was training lacking in where she understood where the belt position was?
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14398
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm

casinterest wrote:

You get training. You also learn to remember where your taser and your gun are. It isn't Anarchy unless those involved fail to learn from the mistakes and get training to handle these situations better.
Right now their is a police officer facing 2nd degree manslaughter, and a dead man. Training and situational awareness could have helped everyone involved.


You dodged the question and you are using a talking point to deflect. I will ask again. You say "training" how do you handle someone who is fighting you and now has gotten back in the car? Like we saw in DC those girls had to flee because they knew jail was the other option. They drove off and killed the guy. What do you train an officer to do when he tried to put the cuffs on and he ran back into the car? Next he is going to start it and try to flee. You can't de-escalate this situation because the suspect who is now under arrest will not de-escalate he is in flee mode. Please be specific.
 
ANITIX87
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 pm

N583JB wrote:
In 2019, 9 unarmed black people and 19 unarmed white people were shot and killed by the police. This out of tens of millions of traffic stops that year. Simply put, black or white-your risk of being killed by a police officer on a traffic stop while doing nothing wrong are essentially as close to zero as they can get.

You're not accounting for population size, which is very important when the racial distribution is so uneven. I agree that, in terms of sheer numbers, these are often over-sensationalized because there are so few and we hear about them all, but it's definitely not a negligible risk.

Police shootings since 2015 (from the Wall Street Journal database: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/):
- 2,883 white people (15 per million)
- 1,496 black people (36 per million)
- 1,051 Hispanic people (27 per million)

Unarmed suspects (numbers in parentheses are my own math):
- 168 white (0.87 per million)
- 135 black (3.25 per million)
- 74 Hispanic (1.91 per million)
There's some rounding which means my numbers aren't exactly right, but it means you're approximately 4x more likely to be shot if you're black than if you're white, if unarmed. That's a HUGE difference.
 
N583JB
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Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:

You get training. You also learn to remember where your taser and your gun are. It isn't Anarchy unless those involved fail to learn from the mistakes and get training to handle these situations better.
Right now their is a police officer facing 2nd degree manslaughter, and a dead man. Training and situational awareness could have helped everyone involved.


You seem to be conflating two things. No one here is arguing that Wright should have been shot. But tazing him definitely would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Yes, this cop made a terrible error....that doesn't mean that cops should just routinely let people go when they try to resist or flee.



There are other issues that need to be looked at.
1. How do they keep him away from the car while being arrested
2. How do they approach the arrest to deescalate the situation. Far too often we have cops that treat people horribly , rather than as fellow citizens who have made poor decisions, and there is a difference.
3. In the Tazing, there is something particularly wrong in that she grabbed the wrong weapon. Was it in the wrong holster, or was training lacking in where she understood where the belt position was?


1. Ideally he would have not resisted being handcuffed. But their plan B (taser) was an adequate one....the officer just didn't use her taser.
2. You can try to deescalate all you want, but at some point people are still going to flee, people are still going to resist, and some people are still going to be violent.
3. Good questions and I expect answers will come during the investigation that is going on as we speak.
 
N583JB
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:41 pm

ANITIX87 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
In 2019, 9 unarmed black people and 19 unarmed white people were shot and killed by the police. This out of tens of millions of traffic stops that year. Simply put, black or white-your risk of being killed by a police officer on a traffic stop while doing nothing wrong are essentially as close to zero as they can get.

You're not accounting for population size, which is very important when the racial distribution is so uneven. I agree that, in terms of sheer numbers, these are often over-sensationalized because there are so few and we hear about them all, but it's definitely not a negligible risk.

Police shootings since 2015 (from the Wall Street Journal database: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/):
- 2,883 white people (15 per million)
- 1,496 black people (36 per million)
- 1,051 Hispanic people (27 per million)

Unarmed suspects (numbers in parentheses are my own math):
- 168 white (0.87 per million)
- 135 black (3.25 per million)
- 74 Hispanic (1.91 per million)
There's some rounding which means my numbers aren't exactly right, but it means you're approximately 4x more likely to be shot if you're black than if you're white, if unarmed. That's a HUGE difference.


Agreed that is a huge difference, but taken into context there are likely reasons for that difference. When 13% of the population accounts for nearly 50% of known homicide suspects, by nature the police are going to likely encounter more violence from that subset of the population.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-6.xls
 
ltbewr
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:53 pm

scbriml wrote:
We've seen it before where multiple police officers are apparently incapable of restraining a compliant (up to a point) suspect. The officer attempting to cuff Wright looked like he'd never handled a pair of cuffs before.

Aaron747 wrote:
He was stopped due to illegal placement of an air freshener


Serious stuff.

Upon a 2nd viewing of the 2nd cop's video recording, the 1st cop should have moved Wright away from the open driver's door in the process of cuffing him, he wouldn't have been able to get back into the car as and attempt to flee, and likely still be alive. Of course, hindsight is 20-20.
The alleged original reason to pull the car over was an expired registration sticker on the rear license plate. Problem is that police had been instructed to not strictly enforce it due to the Pandemic shutdowns and delays in processing registration renewals.
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:49 pm

ANITIX87 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
In 2019, 9 unarmed black people and 19 unarmed white people were shot and killed by the police. This out of tens of millions of traffic stops that year. Simply put, black or white-your risk of being killed by a police officer on a traffic stop while doing nothing wrong are essentially as close to zero as they can get.

You're not accounting for population size, which is very important when the racial distribution is so uneven. I agree that, in terms of sheer numbers, these are often over-sensationalized because there are so few and we hear about them all, but it's definitely not a negligible risk.

Police shootings since 2015 (from the Wall Street Journal database: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/):
- 2,883 white people (15 per million)
- 1,496 black people (36 per million)
- 1,051 Hispanic people (27 per million)

Unarmed suspects (numbers in parentheses are my own math):
- 168 white (0.87 per million)
- 135 black (3.25 per million)
- 74 Hispanic (1.91 per million)
There's some rounding which means my numbers aren't exactly right, but it means you're approximately 4x more likely to be shot if you're black than if you're white, if unarmed. That's a HUGE difference.


The amount of force used by police has a direct correlation to the crime rate.

Black people commit a disproportionally high number of hate crimes, murders, robberies, rapes, and other violent crimes.

2019 numbers:

Murders and nonnegligent manslaughter -
White = 5,070
Black = 5,660

Robbery-
White = 33,290
Black = 39,290

Aggravated Assault-
White = 237,960
Black = 128.020

Total violent crimes-
White = 276,310
Black = 172,980

US Population-
White = 76%
Black = 13%

There are 5.84 white people for every 1 black person.

Blacks commit violent crimes at a rate that is 3.65 times higher than whites.

Numbers don't lie.

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/uc ... &rdoData=c
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:52 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
extender wrote:
How about people stop being stupid? Some people over-complicate things.


Are you implying Daunte Wright was stupid for trying to flee, or the officer was stupid for thinking she had a taser instead of a gun, or both?


The officer made a terrible mistake, Daunte Wright was trying to flee so he wouldn't go to jail.
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:01 am

scbriml wrote:
We've seen it before where multiple police officers are apparently incapable of restraining a compliant (up to a point) suspect. The officer attempting to cuff Wright looked like he'd never handled a pair of cuffs before.

Aaron747 wrote:
He was stopped due to illegal placement of an air freshener


Serious stuff.


The officer that was trying to cuff him was an officer in training. The woman officer was training him.

Daunte Wright was pulled over by police officers because his tag was expired. He had a warrant out for his arrest because he didn't show up at his court date. Daunte Wright was out on a $100,000 bond on a first degree aggravated assault charge.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/daunte-wrigh ... was-killed

They always make these guys out to be "gentle souls" but their history says otherwise.

https://meaww.com/daunte-wright-crimina ... h-weed-gun

Did he deserve to die? Absolutely not. This was a tragic accident that is being politicized by BLM and the left in order to get more money and more votes.

Daunte Wright was a violent criminal. That's who he was.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:03 am

N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N583JB wrote:

You seem to be conflating two things. No one here is arguing that Wright should have been shot. But tazing him definitely would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Yes, this cop made a terrible error....that doesn't mean that cops should just routinely let people go when they try to resist or flee.



There are other issues that need to be looked at.
1. How do they keep him away from the car while being arrested
2. How do they approach the arrest to deescalate the situation. Far too often we have cops that treat people horribly , rather than as fellow citizens who have made poor decisions, and there is a difference.
3. In the Tazing, there is something particularly wrong in that she grabbed the wrong weapon. Was it in the wrong holster, or was training lacking in where she understood where the belt position was?


1. Ideally he would have not resisted being handcuffed. But their plan B (taser) was an adequate one....the officer just didn't use her taser.
2. You can try to deescalate all you want, but at some point people are still going to flee, people are still going to resist, and some people are still going to be violent.
3. Good questions and I expect answers will come during the investigation that is going on as we speak.


I agree on Number 1, but they could have had him further from the car door, and that is probably a teachable lesson for the officers to remove suspects from the front of the car. When I have been pulled over in the past, I was asked to stand behind the vehicle.

2. We still need escalation training. We have people that are going to flee, but they are less likely to do it if they have some understanding with the officers and see a bit of empathy from them.

3. I hope they figure it all out, but It was still a deadly mistake.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:22 am

Just like with climate change, it is important to look at science and evidence — not emotions — when dealing with public safety and policing questions.

Police do kill people sometimes - approximately in the same ratio as there are felony convictions in the general population. The data I could find suggest twice as many white Americans are killed by police as Americans who are Black. Yet, the ratio of prisoners between those two races are much more equal. It seems hard to detect a racial component in police-involved shootings, if white people are more likely to be shot per felony conviction than Black Americans.

Rather than being evidence of racial bias, this seems about what you would expect, given that armed police are needed to deal with violent criminals. And unfortunately, both George Floyd and Daunte Wright had criminal records for violent criminal acts if I am not mistaken. Wright was, according to witnesses, a gun criminal who took $820 from a victim by using his gun to threaten her with death. The dumb cop should not have killed him, but this was a high stakes, extremely high risk encounter. And yes... Daunte Wright’s death ups the stakes further
 
johns624
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:23 am

casinterest wrote:

2. We still need escalation training. We have people that are going to flee, but they are less likely to do it if they have some understanding with the officers and see a bit of empathy from them.

People who are looking at years in jail don't care about empathy.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:02 am

N583JB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You get training. You also learn to remember where your taser and your gun are. It isn't Anarchy unless those involved fail to learn from the mistakes and get training to handle these situations better.
Right now their is a police officer facing 2nd degree manslaughter, and a dead man. Training and situational awareness could have helped everyone involved.


You seem to be conflating two things. No one here is arguing that Wright should have been shot. But tazing him definitely would have been appropriate given the circumstances. Yes, this cop made a terrible error....that doesn't mean that cops should just routinely let people go when they try to resist or flee.


“Let the suspect go” cannot be found anywhere in de-escalation training materials. They are about psychology, not adjudication. What’s important when dealing with potentially erratic persons is controlling the level of energy. Shouted commands and aggressive tone will yield a range of results - and compliance is rarely it.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:59 am

NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Training on deescalating issues needs to be done. Training on arresting a suspect and keeping them away from the door to a vehicle. Training on figuring out what a taser is and is not. Many lives were ruined over this, and lessons are not just about police compliance.


How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You let them go and catch then another day. Many cities in the US have "no chase" policies so that there won't be cars flying at 100mph through city streets.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:06 am

Officer Potter, the one who shot Wright, is being charged with second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.startribune.com/officer-fac ... 600045829/
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:56 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Officer Potter, the one who shot Wright, is being charged with second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.startribune.com/officer-fac ... 600045829/


Think this was just a "rookie" mistake?

The officer was a 26 year veteran and a Police Union representative,

She was also a Field Training Officer and training a new officer at the time of the shooting.

So this is the caliber of police leadership and training in America. I think that's where the issue lies.....
 
extender
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:34 am

af773atmsp wrote:
extender wrote:
How about people stop being stupid? Some people over-complicate things.


Are you implying Daunte Wright was stupid for trying to flee, or the officer was stupid for thinking she had a taser instead of a gun, or both?


Both. But one is a reaction to the other. Action beats reaction all day long. We can Monday morning quarterback this all we want, we have that luxury. These incidents take place in seconds, so sometimes shit happens. Daunte Wright knew he had a warrant. Who knows what went through his mind.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:04 am

NIKV69 wrote:
You say "training" how do you handle someone who is fighting you and now has gotten back in the car?


TRAINING! How is that so difficult for you to understand?

However, it seems even the trainers need training. Proper training would likely have led to Wright being moved away from the open door of his car. Training would have likely have led to the car door being closed and the key removed. Training should have taught Potter to be able to tell the difference between a 2lb gun and an 8oz taser (even in the heat of the moment). Sufficient training should have taught the arresting officer how to cuff someone even in a stressful situation.

bigGAplane wrote:
The officer that was trying to cuff him was an officer in training. The woman officer was training him.


Wait, what? Potter, who can't tell the difference between a gun and a taser, was "training" the arresting officer? What a shit-show, no wonder she resigned.

Have I got this right - there were four officers present? A trainee officer was failing miserably to cuff Wright next to the open car door. Why wasn't he moved away from the open door? Why wasn't the door closed by another officer? Why wasn't the key removed? So many things could have been done to make his attempted escape impossible, instead he ends up dead. Which, despite his criminal record, should not have happened and was easily preventable.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:40 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Officer Kim Potter, who shot Daunte, has claimed she accidentally took out her handgun instead of her taser. Both her and the Brooklyn Center police chief have resigned.

Upon looking at the body camera footage, it appears there was 6 seconds between Potter pulling out her handgun and firing it. There's also the fact that a taser is much lighter than a handgun, plus it's bright yellow.



A bit like a pharmacist switching your 800mg ibuprofen for 80mg Oxycontins or 200mcg Fentoras (fentanyl). They'd not only lose their DEA license and their pharmaceutical license...they'd be jailed for 10+ years.
 
extender
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:54 am

Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:27 am

extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


He's not the professional with the badge and liability shield, right?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:32 am

extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


They did - that has been stated by numerous posters - but nobody deserves to die over a misdemeanor warrant. The flippant disregard for the life of young people who aren't getting the best start in life is just as fucked up as police training evidently is. But you're going to tell us that he should have 'known better' and 'just complied' ad nauseam.
 
N583JB
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:11 am

Pellegrine wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Training on deescalating issues needs to be done. Training on arresting a suspect and keeping them away from the door to a vehicle. Training on figuring out what a taser is and is not. Many lives were ruined over this, and lessons are not just about police compliance.


How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You let them go and catch then another day. Many cities in the US have "no chase" policies so that there won't be cars flying at 100mph through city streets.


That is not a feasible option for someone with gun warrants. So, you let him go....home, to retrieve his gun. And he knows the police are after him. That will end well, right? Of course not....that would put everyone else (including his own family) in danger. You can't just let criminals go.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:09 am

Pellegrine wrote:
extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


He's not the professional with the badge and liability shield, right?


Please educate yourself on qualified immunity. The officer was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter, where is the immunity? QI simply prevents an officer from personally being sued if they follow law, policy, and procedure during an incident. I would imagine pilots, aircraft mechanics, flight attendants, etc., have a very similar protection, The media and politicians have outright lied about QI to deepen the divide and further their agenda.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:22 am

extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


I must have missed all the posts where folks said it was a good idea for him to try and flee and that none of this is his fault. :confused:

Even though he contributed to the situation, it should never have got that far. There were three or four officers there and between them they managed to let an initially compliant suspect get loose, then compounded their joint incompetence by shooting him with a gun that the very experienced training officer mistook for a taser.

I doubt most of us would keep down a job if we displayed that level of incompetence.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:31 am

scbriml wrote:
extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


I must have missed all the posts where folks said it was a good idea for him to try and flee and that none of this is his fault. :confused:

Even though he contributed to the situation, it should never have got that far. There were three or four officers there and between them they managed to let an initially compliant suspect get loose, then compounded their joint incompetence by shooting him with a gun that the very experienced training officer mistook for a taser.

I doubt most of us would keep down a job if we displayed that level of incompetence.


She didn't keep her job, in fact, she is being criminally charged.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:11 pm

scbriml wrote:

TRAINING! How is that so difficult for you to understand?

However, it seems even the trainers need training. Proper training would likely have led to Wright being moved away from the open door of his car. Training would have likely have led to the car door being closed and the key removed. Training should have taught Potter to be able to tell the difference between a 2lb gun and an 8oz taser (even in the heat of the moment). Sufficient training should have taught the arresting officer how to cuff someone even in a stressful situation.



Police are already trained mostly in the ways you describe. It sounds like you are a person that has never made a mistake. Getting the cuffs on someone fighting you isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Unless you have a background in law enforcement? Again most of the replies I am seeing reek of being very passive when it comes to people with warrants. I don't want that here because it will lead to what we have seen in NYC. Total lawlessness and many people being assaulted and killed.
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Daunte Wright's actions didn't contribute to his demise, right?


They did - that has been stated by numerous posters - but nobody deserves to die over a misdemeanor warrant. The flippant disregard for the life of young people who aren't getting the best start in life is just as fucked up as police training evidently is. But you're going to tell us that he should have 'known better' and 'just complied' ad nauseam.


Mr Wright was out on a $100,000 bond and he was charged with 1st degree aggravated assault. You think that's a misdemeanor?
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:41 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Officer Potter, the one who shot Wright, is being charged with second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.startribune.com/officer-fac ... 600045829/


Think this was just a "rookie" mistake?

The officer was a 26 year veteran and a Police Union representative,

She was also a Field Training Officer and training a new officer at the time of the shooting.

So this is the caliber of police leadership and training in America. I think that's where the issue lies.....


In the United States 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error. Where's all the calls for doctors to be better trained? Where's all the people burning down cities because of it?

The reality is that everyone makes mistakes. When you make a mistake at McDonalds people get the wrong sandwich, when other people make mistakes someone can die. It's a horrible tragedy that could have been avoided had Mr Wright not resisted arrest and attempt to flee.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:50 pm

bigGAplane wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Officer Potter, the one who shot Wright, is being charged with second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.startribune.com/officer-fac ... 600045829/


Think this was just a "rookie" mistake?

The officer was a 26 year veteran and a Police Union representative,

She was also a Field Training Officer and training a new officer at the time of the shooting.

So this is the caliber of police leadership and training in America. I think that's where the issue lies.....


In the United States 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error. Where's all the calls for doctors to be better trained? Where's all the people burning down cities because of it?

The reality is that everyone makes mistakes. When you make a mistake at McDonalds people get the wrong sandwich, when other people make mistakes someone can die. It's a horrible tragedy that could have been avoided had Mr Wright not resisted arrest and attempt to flee.


Worst non sequitur ever. Before operations, doctors sit down with patients, discuss pros, cons, risks, and only then do patients sign to have it done. Not remotely the same as someone with a high school education who swears to uphold the Constitution. Not to mention the number of things that can go wrong when the body is being opened for hours at a time is infinitely higher than possible outcomes in a traffic stop encounter.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:56 pm

N583JB wrote:
ANITIX87 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
In 2019, 9 unarmed black people and 19 unarmed white people were shot and killed by the police. This out of tens of millions of traffic stops that year. Simply put, black or white-your risk of being killed by a police officer on a traffic stop while doing nothing wrong are essentially as close to zero as they can get.

You're not accounting for population size, which is very important when the racial distribution is so uneven. I agree that, in terms of sheer numbers, these are often over-sensationalized because there are so few and we hear about them all, but it's definitely not a negligible risk.

Police shootings since 2015 (from the Wall Street Journal database: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/):
- 2,883 white people (15 per million)
- 1,496 black people (36 per million)
- 1,051 Hispanic people (27 per million)

Unarmed suspects (numbers in parentheses are my own math):
- 168 white (0.87 per million)
- 135 black (3.25 per million)
- 74 Hispanic (1.91 per million)
There's some rounding which means my numbers aren't exactly right, but it means you're approximately 4x more likely to be shot if you're black than if you're white, if unarmed. That's a HUGE difference.


Agreed that is a huge difference, but taken into context there are likely reasons for that difference. When 13% of the population accounts for nearly 50% of known homicide suspects, by nature the police are going to likely encounter more violence from that subset of the population.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-6.xls


Correct, the narrative that a disproportionate number of Black men are being killed by police is sort of a "vaccines definitely cause autism" narrative. It feels true, and there are individual stories that would melt your heart proving that it is true. Except, individual stories do not prove a trend. Even a collection of 3, 5, even 25 individual stories. Super emotional, super meaningful. They still do not prove a trend at all. And when you look for this particular trend, it's not there. Source - statistics class
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:17 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Police are already trained mostly in the ways you describe.


Then I can only presume these officers skipped that training.

NIKV69 wrote:
It sounds like you are a person that has never made a mistake.


Not sure how you reach that conclusion. :confused: I probably make as many mistakes as you. Thing is, nobody ends up dead if I screw up.

NIKV69 wrote:
Getting the cuffs on someone fighting you isn't as easy as you make it out to be.


That's true if the person being apprehended is physically resisting arrest. However, in this case, Wright was not "fighting", he was standing there very passively, waiting to be cuffed. It was only when it became obvious to Wright that the officer was failing miserably to cuff him, that he took the bad decision to make a run for it. There was no fight up to that point. If the arresting officer had been able to get the cuffs on in anything approaching a competent fashion, Wright would still be alive. His ass would be in jail, but he'd still be alive.
https://youtu.be/bYNX0QiH5l4?t=35
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:26 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
She didn't keep her job, in fact, she is being criminally charged.


Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
She didn't keep her job, in fact, she is being criminally charged.


Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.



...........And? Should due process be suspended? Do you think she should have be hanged in the public square the following day?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:35 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

2. We still need escalation training. We have people that are going to flee, but they are less likely to do it if they have some understanding with the officers and see a bit of empathy from them.

People who are looking at years in jail don't care about empathy.


Jail is about Rehab. You don't make things better by being cruel. Empathy is about establishing working relationships, and it is something strongly lacking in many jurisdictions due to the fact that many cops do not live where they patrol. .
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:37 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
She didn't keep her job, in fact, she is being criminally charged.


Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.



...........And? Should due process be suspended? Do you think she should have be hanged in the public square the following day?


Is it possible to discuss things without hysterics and putting words in other users’ mouths?
 
bigGAplane
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

2. We still need escalation training. We have people that are going to flee, but they are less likely to do it if they have some understanding with the officers and see a bit of empathy from them.

People who are looking at years in jail don't care about empathy.


Jail is about Rehab. You don't make things better by being cruel. Empathy is about establishing working relationships, and it is something strongly lacking in many jurisdictions due to the fact that many cops do not live where they patrol. .


Jail is a punishment so the individual realizes what they did was wrong as well as rehab for when they are released back into society.
 
johns624
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:07 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

2. We still need escalation training. We have people that are going to flee, but they are less likely to do it if they have some understanding with the officers and see a bit of empathy from them.

People who are looking at years in jail don't care about empathy.


Jail is about Rehab. You don't make things better by being cruel. Empathy is about establishing working relationships, and it is something strongly lacking in many jurisdictions due to the fact that many cops do not live where they patrol. .
Did I ever say it wasn't? I was merely saying that a person facing years in prison if they are arrested, isn't going to go calmly because the officer had empathy for them.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:17 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
People who are looking at years in jail don't care about empathy.


Jail is about Rehab. You don't make things better by being cruel. Empathy is about establishing working relationships, and it is something strongly lacking in many jurisdictions due to the fact that many cops do not live where they patrol. .
Did I ever say it wasn't? I was merely saying that a person facing years in prison if they are arrested, isn't going to go calmly because the officer had empathy for them.


It depends on training ,and recognizing what is going on. Years in Prison is for the judge and jury to decide. The police officer is bringing them to justice, and that practice does not have to be done with angry cruelty. Far too many people are losing their lives over lack of empathy.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
That's true if the person being apprehended is physically resisting arrest. However, in this case, Wright was not "fighting", he was standing there very passively, waiting to be cuffed. It was only when it became obvious to Wright that the officer was failing miserably to cuff him, that he took the bad decision to make a run for it. There was no fight up to that point. If the arresting officer had been able to get the cuffs on in anything approaching a competent fashion, Wright would still be alive. His ass would be in jail, but he'd still be alive.
https://youtu.be/bYNX0QiH5l4?t=35


I don't know what video you watched but Wright was fighting all the way. You really believe that his decision to run was based on how the officer was cuffing him? That is complete lunacy. Again like Blake he knew he had a warrant and that he was going to jail. It was flight all the way. I mean you really believe what you typed above? It's pretty scary and goes back to the passive attitude toward people that break the law and how they are given a pass. The cites that think this like NYC and believe in no bail are already reaping what they sew with crime spiking and people being brutalized. In 5 years NYC will back to the 70s when it was a total shit show. It's really sad. God help Andrew Yang. He will need it.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 163
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.



...........And? Should due process be suspended? Do you think she should have be hanged in the public square the following day?


Is it possible to discuss things without hysterics and putting words in other users’ mouths?


How is asking the poster three questions putting words in his mouth?
 
extender
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
The police officer is bringing them to justice, and that practice does not have to be done with angry cruelty. Far too many people are losing their lives over lack of empathy.


Just about every arrest I have seen made is done professionally. You tend to lose some decorum when someone violently resists or shoots at you, which is understandable. It isn't lack of empathy, cops have been shooting bad guys for a while now, and empathy doesn't have a part in it. Empathy, feelings... Don't trump facts, don't trump stupidity and doesn't trump personal responsibility.
 
johns624
Posts: 3980
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Jail is about Rehab. You don't make things better by being cruel. Empathy is about establishing working relationships, and it is something strongly lacking in many jurisdictions due to the fact that many cops do not live where they patrol. .
Did I ever say it wasn't? I was merely saying that a person facing years in prison if they are arrested, isn't going to go calmly because the officer had empathy for them.


It depends on training ,and recognizing what is going on. Years in Prison is for the judge and jury to decide. The police officer is bringing them to justice, and that practice does not have to be done with angry cruelty. Far too many people are losing their lives over lack of empathy.
What "angry cruelty" was done in this case? I mean, before he tried to run?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:53 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don't know what video you watched but Wright was fighting all the way.


That is absolutely not true. I provided a link to the video where he's standing passively waiting to be cuffed - did you watch it? Restrained by just the officer who failed to cuff him - if Wright was "fighting all the way" why were the other officers just standing there watching?

Where's the fighting whilst waiting to be cuffed?
Image

Still standing there passively some ten seconds later when Potter steps in to help with the cuffing:
Image

Image source: screen grabs from YouTube video https://youtu.be/bYNX0QiH5l4?t=35

The only thing that could be described as fighting is what happened after he slipped out of the grasp of Officer Cuffs and jumped back into his car.

Feel free to post a video showing where he was "fighting all the way" whilst being cuffed.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13836
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:55 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Did I ever say it wasn't? I was merely saying that a person facing years in prison if they are arrested, isn't going to go calmly because the officer had empathy for them.


It depends on training ,and recognizing what is going on. Years in Prison is for the judge and jury to decide. The police officer is bringing them to justice, and that practice does not have to be done with angry cruelty. Far too many people are losing their lives over lack of empathy.
What "angry cruelty" was done in this case? I mean, before he tried to run?

I am not addressing this specific case, but rather other cases we have seen recently where anger is getting the best of cops .
 
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scbriml
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:01 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
She didn't keep her job, in fact, she is being criminally charged.


Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.



...........And? Should due process be suspended? Do you think she should have be hanged in the public square the following day?


I said that most of us would lose our jobs if we were as incompetent as those officers. I think the most common interpretation of "lose my job" is that my ass got canned. You said "She didn't keep her job", but Potter wasn't canned, she resigned. Big difference - by resigning I'm going to guess she gets to keep all her accrued benefits.

As to your other questions, I'm confused how you drew those conclusions from anything I've posted in this thread. :confused:
 
bpatus297
Posts: 163
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Wright was killed on Sunday.

Potter was immediately placed on administrative leave, then resigned on Tuesday.

She was arrested and charged on Wednesday.



...........And? Should due process be suspended? Do you think she should have be hanged in the public square the following day?


I said that most of us would lose our jobs if we were as incompetent as those officers. I think the most common interpretation of "lose my job" is that my ass got canned. You said "She didn't keep her job", but Potter wasn't canned, she resigned. Big difference - by resigning I'm going to guess she gets to keep all her accrued benefits.

As to your other questions, I'm confused how you drew those conclusions from anything I've posted in this thread. :confused:



Okay, she resigned in lieu of being fired, I get it semantics. If you screw up in private industry, there is generally some sort of process to be fired. I know that's not everywhere, but at an airline, do they just throw people out on the street without a process? I can't speak for Minnesota, but in almost every state, its very very hard to take a public employees benefits. Most likely, even if fired, she would retain what ever pension she has accrued to this point.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:38 pm

N583JB wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

How do you de-escalate someone who won't be taken into custody because they know with warrants they are going to jail? How do you de-escalate this person who jumps in his car and guns it and drags a police officer and puts the others in danger? I am seeing a lot of posts here that are code for just letting people go. That is called Anarchy.


You let them go and catch then another day. Many cities in the US have "no chase" policies so that there won't be cars flying at 100mph through city streets.


That is not a feasible option for someone with gun warrants. So, you let him go....home, to retrieve his gun. And he knows the police are after him. That will end well, right? Of course not....that would put everyone else (including his own family) in danger. You can't just let criminals go.



Sure it is. I bet she wishes she let him go today. Now she's charged 2nd-degree manslaughter. (Should be 2nd-degree murder.) And If I were a major insurer in that city, I'd be counting my lucky charms the place doesn't burn to the ground.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Shooting of Daunte Wright

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:50 pm

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don't know what video you watched but Wright was fighting all the way.


That is absolutely not true. I provided a link to the video where he's standing passively waiting to be cuffed - did you watch it? Restrained by just the officer who failed to cuff him - if Wright was "fighting all the way" why were the other officers just standing there watching?

Where's the fighting whilst waiting to be cuffed?
Image

Still standing there passively some ten seconds later when Potter steps in to help with the cuffing:
Image

Image source: screen grabs from YouTube video https://youtu.be/bYNX0QiH5l4?t=35

The only thing that could be described as fighting is what happened after he slipped out of the grasp of Officer Cuffs and jumped back into his car.

Feel free to post a video showing where he was "fighting all the way" whilst being cuffed.


No need, if you really think he was justified to bolt after the officer didn't get the cuffs on immediately and you are also criticizing the officer's competence because he didn't get them right away then our convo is pointless and you sympathize will people with warrants. I don't believe in that and again one needs to look to NYC to see what the result is for coddling people who look to do harm to others. Just like in that DC carjacking as well. Throw in the no bail stuff and it's anything goes. No thank you. I believe in respecting police. Your argument makes no sense. Wright was going to flee all the way, which is what Blake did. End result will never be good.

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