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Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:39 pm
by fallap
johns624 wrote:
fallap wrote:

We have managed to live in peace and harmony in Europe (save the breakup of Yugoslavia) since 1945.
The breakup of Yugoslavia is a huge "except for". Over 130,000 people were killed. With so many non-state terrorist organizations, I'd say the London, Paris and Madrid attacks would constitute a war. Europe needs to quit with their whole "we're so much more civilized than the rest of the world" attitude.


Given Europe's track record for the past 2,000 years I'd say 130,000 deaths limited to óne conflict in the span of (at the time) 45 years and afterwards 20 years isn't so bad. Don't ge me wrong, it was a horrible conflict that brought out the worst of mankind and the subsequent failure to stop it by the UN and European Community is nothing to write home about. But in contrast to the meatgrinder of the two world wars, the Napoleon Wars, and the list continues, we seem to be heading in the right way.

Also, I hate to rain on your parade but the occasional terrorist attacks (mind you, things were a lot less worse in the 1960's and 70's) do not constitute a war, not even a civil war, and if it was the case Europe would still remain one of the most peaceful places on earth.

Regarding our claim on civility, I fail to observe any other part in the world (save Canada, Oceania, as well as a few East Asian and African nations) that retain the same level of individual rights, democratic transparancy, peace, and the opportunity to lead a life of one's own choice. We don't need to tell that we are the best, for we realize that we are far from perfect and aim to be better - I am simply challenging the pessimistic view that wars will never cease to excist, as we have (at least for now) proven that it can be done on the European continent.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
by johns624
fallap wrote:

Also, I hate to rain on your parade but the occasional terrorist attacks (mind you, things were a lot less worse in the 1960's and 70's) do not constitute a war, not even a civil war, and if it was the case Europe would still remain one of the most peaceful places on earth.

Of course it isn't a civil war, you are being attacked from the outside, you just choose to ignore it. It's the same thing, only smaller, of the attacks of 9/11.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:30 pm
by c933103
fallap wrote:
c933103 wrote:
After US pull put of Afghanistan, amid new push of cooperation between China, Pakistan and Afghanistan, will China send its army into the Afghanistan to fill the void of power left by the US?

Sokes wrote:
Is a world without war possible?

No, unless there is a single authority powerful ebough to reign over and suppress all the ears, but that would be worse to human civilization than wars


We have managed to live in peace and harmony in Europe (save the breakup of Yugoslavia) since 1945. So a world without war is not out of the question. Wars and conflict are already starting to become a rarity compared to the past. Give it a few thousand years.

Since 1945 is also a short amount of time.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:17 pm
by fallap
c933103 wrote:
fallap wrote:
c933103 wrote:
After US pull put of Afghanistan, amid new push of cooperation between China, Pakistan and Afghanistan, will China send its army into the Afghanistan to fill the void of power left by the US?


No, unless there is a single authority powerful ebough to reign over and suppress all the ears, but that would be worse to human civilization than wars


We have managed to live in peace and harmony in Europe (save the breakup of Yugoslavia) since 1945. So a world without war is not out of the question. Wars and conflict are already starting to become a rarity compared to the past. Give it a few thousand years.

Since 1945 is also a short amount of time.


Compared to any other time in European history it has been pretty quiet.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:18 pm
by fallap
johns624 wrote:
fallap wrote:

Also, I hate to rain on your parade but the occasional terrorist attacks (mind you, things were a lot less worse in the 1960's and 70's) do not constitute a war, not even a civil war, and if it was the case Europe would still remain one of the most peaceful places on earth.

Of course it isn't a civil war, you are being attacked from the outside, you just choose to ignore it. It's the same thing, only smaller, of the attacks of 9/11.


I can assure you that terrorist attacks on European soil are not ignored. Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:47 pm
by sierrakilo44
fallap wrote:
Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.


Actually:

France - Centrist and Liberal President and Prime Minister. Both legislative bodies dominated by centrists, social democrats and centre right. Marine Le Pen’s far right party has a minuscule umber of seats and no real influence.

Italy - led by a coalition headed by the former ECB chairman. Far right Salvini has reduced power in the Draghi government compared to his previous role.

Germany - AfD have no power against the centre right and left coalition in the Bundestag

Spain - ruled by socialists, far right party only has 3 seats in the legislature

Netherlands - Geert Wilders‘ far right party has lost support in the last elections and is down to a handful of seats, inc only one in the Euro Parliament.

Austria - far right FPO dropped seats in the last election and is now out of government.

Greece - Golden Dawn now pretty much non existent.

Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Denmark, Portugal all have social Democrats or pro EU centrists in power.

Only two big countries I can think of with far right influence in the government are Hungary and Poland.

I think the events of 2016, Brexit and Trump, were the high point for far right politics in Europe. Since then Europe has seen the disaster that was Brexit, and the even more ludicrous clown show that was Trump and they’ve decided they’re going to stay away from that and return to more sensible, intelligent politics.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:52 pm
by johns624
fallap wrote:

I can assure you that terrorist attacks on European soil are not ignored. Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.
How many attacks have you made on their sources and sanctuaries? Spain really went all out after the source of the train bombings, didn't they?

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:36 pm
by fallap
sierrakilo44 wrote:
fallap wrote:
Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.




Actually:

France - Centrist and Liberal President and Prime Minister. Both legislative bodies dominated by centrists, social democrats and centre right. Marine Le Pen’s far right party has a minuscule umber of seats and no real influence.


Italy - led by a coalition headed by the former ECB chairman. Far right Salvini has reduced power in the Draghi government compared to his previous role.

Germany - AfD have no power against the centre right and left coalition in the Bundestag

Spain - ruled by socialists, far right party only has 3 seats in the legislature

Netherlands - Geert Wilders‘ far right party has lost support in the last elections and is down to a handful of seats, inc only one in the Euro Parliament.

Austria - far right FPO dropped seats in the last election and is now out of government.

Greece - Golden Dawn now pretty much non existent.

Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Denmark, Portugal all have social Democrats or pro EU centrists in power.

Only two big countries I can think of with far right influence in the government are Hungary and Poland.

I think the events of 2016, Brexit and Trump, were the high point for far right politics in Europe. Since then Europe has seen the disaster that was Brexit, and the even more ludicrous clown show that was Trump and they’ve decided they’re going to stay away from that and return to more sensible, intelligent politics.


In France support for Marine le Pen is on the rise in France and the chance of her assuming office is becoming more likely. In Denmark where I live the Social Democratic Party governing the country is moving far to the right in terms of the immigration question and are pretty much on level with the right-winged party.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:38 pm
by fallap
johns624 wrote:
fallap wrote:

I can assure you that terrorist attacks on European soil are not ignored. Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.
How many attacks have you made on their sources and sanctuaries? Spain really went all out after the source of the train bombings, didn't they?


I really don't get where you are going with this? If the intelligence services pick up presumed terrorists plotting an attack they will move to apprehend them and put them on trial.

Re: Your view of a pull out from Afghanistan ?

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:19 pm
by johns624
fallap wrote:
johns624 wrote:
fallap wrote:

I can assure you that terrorist attacks on European soil are not ignored. Also, if you pay any attention to the European affairs we are currently undergoing a massive shift to the right in response to the increase in immigration.
How many attacks have you made on their sources and sanctuaries? Spain really went all out after the source of the train bombings, didn't they?


I really don't get where you are going with this? If the intelligence services pick up presumed terrorists plotting an attack they will move to apprehend them and put them on trial.
I'm talking about the networks outside the country.