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Sokes
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Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:37 am

I came across this topic in quora:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-ugl ... srid=wUyyu

In the comments somebody posted this link:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 20(Thyself)%2018%2F02%2F12.%20AFTER%20THE%2Cwhat%20you%20wish%2C%20and%20I%20will%20grant%20it.%E2%80%9D

Is it so bad?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 14450
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:48 am

Sokes wrote:
I came across this topic in quora:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-ugl ... srid=wUyyu

In the comments somebody posted this link:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 20(Thyself)%2018%2F02%2F12.%20AFTER%20THE%2Cwhat%20you%20wish%2C%20and%20I%20will%20grant%20it.%E2%80%9D

Is it so bad?


Of course, it is very contentious, but it is more complicated than that. They also control the religious courts, making proper adjudication difficult. Many Russian immigrants arrived in the 1990s and vastly changed the political landscape of the country due to their staunchly anti-Palestinian views. Even so, nearly 1/4 of them are not considered legitimately Jewish by the Orthodox rabbinate.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... in-israel/ M

More secular Jews are not huge fans of the Orthodox wing in the US diaspora either - I was urged by family members when younger to never 'succumb' to Orthodox dogma.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aesma
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:23 pm

Theocracy, what's not to like ?
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WIederling
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:52 am

Aesma wrote:
Theocracy, what's not to like ?


It is more insidious afaics.
A group with privileges, high birthrate and massive alimentation from the social system.
From a secluded fringe group to a loud overbearing "moral majority" sect that
can't be bothered with the "worldly" framework of their host state.

Is parasitic the proper tag here?

parallels to the US "reborn" fundy Christians?
Murphy is an optimist
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:39 pm

It is always surprising to people that those very conservative people in rural and isolated America are also most often on the federal and/or State tit. I have been surprised at being the only one who calls them the welfare queens they are. In my home state Seattle and the rest of the Puget Sound regions finances the schools, medical facilities, roads, even the irrigation water that the queens slurp up without so much as a pang of appreciation that they don't pay for any of it. I am in favor of a referendum that counties paying less than 75% of the state benefits they receive need a 60% vote in the state legislature to receive those benefits. Israel needs to do something similar.
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GDB
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:43 pm

WIederling wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Theocracy, what's not to like ?


It is more insidious afaics.
A group with privileges, high birthrate and massive alimentation from the social system.
From a secluded fringe group to a loud overbearing "moral majority" sect that
can't be bothered with the "worldly" framework of their host state.

Is parasitic the proper tag here?

parallels to the US "reborn" fundy Christians?


Don't pay taxes, exempt from military service to defend 'their' homeland, (if anyone should be at the sharp end it's them), a disproportionate influence in politics, aren't their various wack job parties keeping that corrupt POS as PM?

Closer to home, here in the UK while several incidents of events like weddings have been busted for massively breaking lockdown restrictions, from all faiths, the last couple of really big ones were some weeks ago in North London, where there is an Orthodox population and theirs got busted. A wedding, another major gathering after that.
Guess where the latest breakout in infection in the Greater London area have been?
One of the groups who resist vaccines too.

Just like all the other faith based fundaMENTALISTS then. Of all denominations.
 
Sokes
Topic Author
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:08 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is always surprising to people that those very conservative people in rural and isolated America are also most often on the federal and/or State tit. I have been surprised at being the only one who calls them the welfare queens they are. In my home state Seattle and the rest of the Puget Sound regions finances the schools, medical facilities, roads, even the irrigation water that the queens slurp up without so much as a pang of appreciation that they don't pay for any of it. I am in favor of a referendum that counties paying less than 75% of the state benefits they receive need a 60% vote in the state legislature to receive those benefits. Israel needs to do something similar.

Carnegie wrote "The Gospel of the rich".
In it he says the rich person should spend his fortune in the area in which he made the fortune. I struggled to understand this sentence for a long time. Shouldn't one help the poor and disadvantaged areas?
I observed in India that business is only possible in a few cities. In most areas politicians and administration would trouble too much. I guess that's what Carnegie revered to.

What about today?
I believe poor areas come up by good politics. Too much solidarity may actually stabilize bad politics. No idea if this is true for the US. But I do wonder if it's true for Europe or even within Germany.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:29 am

I've been to Israel more than a few times (always on business), and have made a couple of friends there. They're all secular, and the feeling towards the orthodox is either resentment, apathy or disgust - sometimes a combination of all three. Think it's fair to say that the orthodox are tolerated, but not much more than that, by the secular.

The problem is in politics, where it's all but impossible for either the left or the right wing to form a viable coalition without an alliance with the orthodox crowd. And that ensures the orthodox maintain their privileges; non-participation in the defence of Israel and - to a certain extent - non-participation in the labour market but living off social services. It is quite normal for an orthodox male never, ever, to hold a job making an income, instead devoting their time to making babies and studying the Torah.

Demographics will not change this in either the near or far future, as the birthrate amongst the orthodox far outnumber that of the secular. If anything, and given that Israel is a democracy, the influence of the orthodox is set to increase.

Israel is a fascinating place, steeped in history and with more historic landmarks than you can shake the proverbial stick at. Jerusalem is an excellent case in point; for all practical purposes that city wouldn't really exist at the level of prominence it has, if it wasn't for the "small" matter of Abrahamic religions. Will also hasten to add that the night life in Israel must be seen to be believed. Suffice to say that regardless of which sex you belong to and which team you're batting for, there's nowhere on the plant that I know of, where it's so easy to "get lucky".
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Relationship orthodox and secular Jews in Israel

Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:31 am

B777LRF wrote:
Suffice to say that regardless of which sex you belong to and which team you're batting for, there's nowhere on the plant that I know of, where it's so easy to "get lucky".


This is a well known facet of Israel. But also suffice to say, the reason for that is clearly because depression is endemic among the population, given what passes for 'normal' there. Devil-may-care attitudes prevail in such situations.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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