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Aaron747
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Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:14 am

So again, I’m thinking about the levels of mental illness endemic in US society. Happened to see this video earlier, and it’s astounding how various beliefs have conflated into a very distorted view of going about one’s daily business.

A woman in the Austin, TX area went into a store, was told she needed to wear a mask, became physically aggressive, and then had this bizarre exchange with police when they arrived:

https://youtu.be/-rlMxOcgQgI

The full story: https://www.fox7austin.com/news/lake-tr ... k-incident

Two things that are usually made clear to kids when growing up: 1. there are rules for many situations, and you may not like them, but you’re expected to follow them. 2. if you interfere with people in a place of business, or touch them, the cops are going to be called.

To loudly proclaim ‘I will not be bullied’ (by a store’s rules?) or to tell cops they don’t know the law suggests a substantial detachment from reality. How many Americans walking around every day are certain *their* version of how the world works supersedes actual rules and policies in place? Makes one think.
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lightsaber
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:09 am

The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber
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NIKV69
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber


The 24 hour news cycle, pundits that espouse toxic sound bytes and social media is driving this. It will only get worse. I have a friend who has been consumed by this and I don't even recognize him anymore. You have to think for yourselves people.
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Aaron747
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:47 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber


The 24 hour news cycle, pundits that espouse toxic sound bytes and social media is driving this. It will only get worse. I have a friend who has been consumed by this and I don't even recognize him anymore. You have to think for yourselves people.


Not gonna happen but as Devil's advocate...if we shut down talk radio, Maddow and Tucker for a year, how do you think that would help?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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T18
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:57 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber


The 24 hour news cycle, pundits that espouse toxic sound bytes and social media is driving this. It will only get worse. I have a friend who has been consumed by this and I don't even recognize him anymore. You have to think for yourselves people.


Not gonna happen but as Devil's advocate...if we shut down talk radio, Maddow and Tucker for a year, how do you think that would help?


It wouldn't imo. However if we didn't allow utter nonsense to pass as fact on places like facebook it could help, for some reason a large part of the adult population takes everything they read on the web as fact with no thought to the validity of the source or even if it even make logical sense that Bill Gates is a secret Lizard here to turn our kids into Blueberry Muffins.

As to mental health, cost is a major issue, our entire system is for profit and as much as I love capitalism, when it comes to heathcare perhaps money shouldn't be our first concern, healing should be as long as $$$ is the factor many who need or want help with either be unable to get it or unwilling to spend for it.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
Sokes
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:47 pm

Bad Amygdala.
Pointless for the police (and anybody else) to discuss with a person in this state of mind
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:02 pm

The love of guns at any cost to human life is a primary example of how dysfunctional we are in this country
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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seb146
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:55 pm

Mental health was stigmatized far too long. On the media side, this "social media" and "24 hour news cycle" are fairly recent events. I remember back in the days before internet when our only sources of information was the few times a day news was on or our own lying eyes. Now, people can scour the web for literally anything that makes their opinion sound like fact.
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StarAC17
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
So again, I’m thinking about the levels of mental illness endemic in US society. Happened to see this video earlier, and it’s astounding how various beliefs have conflated into a very distorted view of going about one’s daily business.

A woman in the Austin, TX area went into a store, was told she needed to wear a mask, became physically aggressive, and then had this bizarre exchange with police when they arrived:

https://youtu.be/-rlMxOcgQgI

The full story: https://www.fox7austin.com/news/lake-tr ... k-incident

Two things that are usually made clear to kids when growing up: 1. there are rules for many situations, and you may not like them, but you’re expected to follow them. 2. if you interfere with people in a place of business, or touch them, the cops are going to be called.

To loudly proclaim ‘I will not be bullied’ (by a store’s rules?) or to tell cops they don’t know the law suggests a substantial detachment from reality. How many Americans walking around every day are certain *their* version of how the world works supersedes actual rules and policies in place? Makes one think.


I don't think this has anything to do with mental illness and everything to to with entitlement. I am at work so watched the video is certain points and not the full 5 minutes. Some observations.

    This is Texas, the state that has the image of rugged individualism "Don't mess with Texas"
    This woman is blonde, and upper middle class or wealthy (She looks to be decked out in Lululemon gear).
    She has been rarely told no in her life so this experience is somewhat new hear

This is typical Karen behavior, move along.

Also you asked how many Americans have this attitude. Enough that its not a trend and not a few people. From an outside perspective (Canadian here).
Americans are raised that they come of the best country in the world and that they are exceptional people because of where they happen to live.

In many ways the US is very exceptional and it many ways its at or below average in global metrics but the attitude from the culture in the US coming from pop culture and the US government is that the US is an just that. In reality any American individual is just the same any any Canadian, Brit, German, Aussie, etc. In all of those countries we are raised that we aren't particularly special.

lightsaber wrote:
The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber


I think Covid has simply amplified a lot of problems that already exist in society and the ship was just hold on to begin with. Covid is threatening to flood the 5th watertight compartment and we might be sinking (Titanic reference)

The media presents dramatic negative content all the time. Be is the bad with covid, the Chauvin trial, the unrest etc. How about saying that the US is number 2 in the world and administering the vaccine, there are concrete plans to get out of Afghanistan after 20 years.

Many people have been stressed to the max long before this. Working longer and harder and just making ends meet. Constant stress of work and job security among many people, the threat of crime perhaps. Not having an emergency fund, not being a generally collective society to begin with. None of these things individually are likely lead to a mental health issue but combined they affect sleep, diet physical activity
and people might have the gym, church, sports, clubs, the pub etc. to deal with it. With those all gone at the moment and all of the other stresses remaining it just magnifies the issue.

Furthermore the culture still hasn't fully shifted to support those with mental heath issues as what they are sick. Sick who can be treated in many ways that we know work, such as antidepressants, exercise, talking to a counsellor. Women seem to be better and seeking out treatment and are much more likely to have a network of close friends who support them. Men are often seen as week and flawed for admitting mental health issues which is why they bottle it up and are more likely to turn to drugs or aggressive behavior such as mass shootings and suicide.
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luckyone
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:58 pm

We can hem and haw all we want about mental health, but at the end of the day we do not, and will not have a comprehensive plan to manage it. We have 50 different systems of mental health regulation. Many of them are similar, but they all are regulated by the individual states, and accordingly the rules are interpreted as such. The rough rule of thumb is the further West you go, the more difficult it is to access care due to resources. With respect to state mental health codes, with some exception, by and large they are more paternalistic in the East, and more civil libertarian minded as you move West. Some states make it VERY hard to actually get anybody treatment. I've worked in Alaska, Illinois, Ohio, Washington, and Wisconsin.

Alaska makes it impossible. To treat someone, a petition must be made before a judge giving cause for concern to hold them for 72 hours, and during that time, unless the patient takes a swing at someone, you can't give them medicine against their will. This is usually a rubber stamp. After 72 hours a mandatory court hearing is held, and the way the statutes are interpreted, it is "clear and convincing evidence." The way that is interpreted by judges is effectively someone has to either not be eating, and say they will continue to not eat, or having a gun to their head and are ready to pull the trigger. Anything shy of that, and they are released. The public defenders in Alaska are diabolical. Walk around Anchorage and tell me how well that's working.

Washington has a similar set up, in that a petition has to be made to a county appointed mental health responder, who then comes and evaluates the patient. They are not doctors and may or may not agree with you, and often they don't know what they're doing. If they detain, the patient is held for 120 business hours, with an automatic hearing, and during this period you CAN compel medications until 24 hours before the hearing. The public defenders again can be diabolical. The standard, unlike Alaska, is "preponderance of evidence," so it's usually easier to keep a detention than in Alaska. At the end of the day, a physician has minimal actual influence other than to say "there's a problem here," and they have to argue with the state TWICE to get somebody help--mostly because some important person's daughter was involuntarily hospitalized way back when and was not happy about it. THEN, if the court agrees with the provider, the county takes over and has final say in where a patient is placed. Designated hospitals decline for every stupid reason one can imagine. It can be medical reasons, concern for withdrawal, or I've been told "This person is not acute enough,'' or "this person is too acute,' (How???) or "we don't take patients with development delays," and I could go on and on and on. Washington has a similar process for substance use colloquially called "Ricky's Law." It basically follows the same process with one caveat, there must immediately be a substance use treatment bed available. Want to guess how often that happens? Personally, I have a lot of reservations about Ricky's Law because ultimately a substance user is not going to get help until they want help, no matter what you do to them. Walk down 3rd Avenue and Pioneer Square in Seattle and tell me how effective the system is.

Illinois and Ohio have very similar systems. Any physician sees a problem, and they certify the patient for involuntary admission to an inpatient hospital. In both states the patient (or family) can contest the hearing, but it's not automatic. You cannot compel medicines on a scheduled basis without a court order (but you can if the patient again becomes physically violent). In my experience, this works pretty well.

Wisconsin is somewhat of a hybrid, and depends on the county. I worked in Milwaukee County. In Milwaukee County, only a county-appointed physician can ultimately involuntarily detain someone (I was that person). A patient is brought to a hospital by either family, emergency medical services, or (most often) law enforcement who have identified a concern in the community. The county-appointed physician evaluates and makes the decision to detain, voluntarily treat, or release to the community. If a detention is made, that is centrally processed at a county facility, and the patient is either admitted to a private community hospital, or the county hospital. A hearing date is automatically set. In my experience, this works well on the physician end, but it can get cumbersome on the community end as hospital ERs get filled up with people waiting to be evaluated by the county.

My brother is a law enforcement official in Georgia. He cannot respond to a mental health concern unless he hears the person say they are going to kill themselves or someone else. There are many many many types of mental health concerns beyond this.

My friends in Texas report that involuntarily treating someone is very difficult.

I haven't worked in Florida, but I was a student in Florida. They have what's called the Baker Act, whereby similar to Illinois and Ohio a physician, law enforcement, mental health profession, or legal representative can identify a problem. The person is then involuntarily detained for up to 72 hours. On the back end there aren't enough beds, and I've heard that there are discriminatory sequelae to having been detained under the Baker Act.

We don't have enough access to care. We don't have enough beds. We don't have ability in many states to quickly and reasonably access care. And that is not going to change. Interestingly, all of these wonderful "business friendly," "affordable" states that people are moving to consistently rank toward the BOTTOM of mental health care rankings. We squawk and squawk about these shooters with mental illness, but here's what's going to happen if you actually do something about it. The very first time one of these kids or family member of an affluent family gets evaluated, admitted, or involuntarily treated, you're going to have an uproar by conservatives who are going to screech that the government is invading their privacy. Parents will demand that their children be allowed to opt out of any screening that is attempted to take place in the public schools, "because I don't want the government telling me what to do with my child," (As a kid, my mother refused to let me participate in school-administered scoliosis checks, stating that's what my pediatrician was for, not the government). Any large scale attempt to limit access to firearms will be met with fierce resistance by the "Cold dead hands" crowd. So, unless people change their attitudes, this is going nowhere.
 
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:16 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Furthermore the culture still hasn't fully shifted to support those with mental heath issues as what they are sick. Sick who can be treated in many ways that we know work, such as antidepressants, exercise, talking to a counsellor. Women seem to be better and seeking out treatment and are much more likely to have a network of close friends who support them. Men are often seen as week and flawed for admitting mental health issues which is why they bottle it up and are more likely to turn to drugs or aggressive behavior such as mass shootings and suicide.


Another issue is that certain aspects of mental illness / sociopathy is seen as virtue. "success, however it is achieved".
Another one is the distance between virtue pretensions and what is done "under the hood".
( #metoo has morphed into another tool for winning "something". .. or was that the intention from the get go? )

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DL717
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:37 pm

Mental health care should be free from the government if we really want to do something about it. You won't be able to help everyone, but its ridiculous that we don't simply write a check for it. Far more important than all of this debate over insurance. In many cases, medication makes so many of the issues manageable to the point where people can lead stable normal lives.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:50 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The problem is, we didn't have a normal society. I see everyone on edge as people just haven't had a normal amount of socialization.

It isn't so much their version, it is the lack of decision making and social discource.

Everyone going online is just seeing conflict. Tons of condemnation on TV and the internet.

We are not healthy. My friends in the mental health professions are freaking out. They have never seen so much depression and depressed people lash out.

Lightsaber


The 24 hour news cycle, pundits that espouse toxic sound bytes and social media is driving this. It will only get worse. I have a friend who has been consumed by this and I don't even recognize him anymore. You have to think for yourselves people.


If you can, get your friend some help.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
extender
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:00 pm

Another, and possible overriding concern is the culture of non-compliance. I have seen too many videos of badge cams where the suspect is not complying, or even flat out yelling: "Kill me." You may have a fight or flight urge; and comments from elected officials fuel the sometimes deadly encounter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDWcqxqADwM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMO7HxGnCgo

Watch for yourself.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mass Mental Illness In US - Redux

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm

DL717 wrote:
Mental health care should be free from the government if we really want to do something about it. You won't be able to help everyone, but its ridiculous that we don't simply write a check for it. Far more important than all of this debate over insurance. In many cases, medication makes so many of the issues manageable to the point where people can lead stable normal lives.


We are in 100% agreement - even if we caught half of what's out there, it would make a HUGE impact on society's functioning.
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