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noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:29 pm

[quote="FGITD"][quote="noviorbis77"][quote="ElPistolero"]

These businessmen/owners are many things, but stupid they are not. They’ve war-gamed this several times over, and know what the “deal” is.

The reality is - these leagues don’t actually have much global appeal when you take the big 6 out of the equation. That’s where the global fan base is. No one in South East Asia is buying a TV subscription to watch West Brom v Fulham (frankly anybody supporting an Allardyce team shouldn’t be allowed to call them self a football fan). They will, however, buy subscriptions to watch a league with all of these teams (either in ESL format, or a league format). Spectacle is key here. People want to watch high quality football with the best players, not park-the-bus football.

We may want to believe that the identity of a club is important, but is it? The whole Chelsea/City phenomenon has blow a giant gaping hole in that notion. What is Chelsea’s identity? What is Manchester City’s? They’ve bought their silverware, and they’ve been rewarded well for it. Where was the Premier League then?

They - and Leipzig and PSG - have shown that clubs can build global fan bases through heavy investment. That reality is the basis for the ESL.

Without the big 6, the EPL is Championship Mk II. It’s never going to attract the best players or a global audience. I suspect - on the EPL side - some of this is payback for the way the smaller clubs tried to ham string the big ones by refusing to agree to the 5-sub rule in an overly congested and condensed one-off season. That kind of false equivalency leads to these demonstrations of power. Throw in silliness like no broadcasting 3 PM kick offs .... and, well, there was always going to be a stand off.[/quote]

TBH, I am sure most English supporters like me couldn’t careless about the global brand. We’d happily see less money in the game, without the big name players.

We’d prefer to support our local teams in a competitive league, whereby teams win leagues on merit and not by buying the league.

Sadly money talks though. Until we can get a German model in England, nothing will change.[/quote]

It’s too late for that though, the clubs are already global brands. The local support has already been thrown to the side, because it’s the international markets that bring in the big bucks. Look at preseason-used to be a summer camp in Austria or Spain for most, now it’s a global tour to Southeast Asia, or North America where they’ll sell out NFL stadiums for a friendly.

Arsene Wenger warned everyone. You let billionaires buy teams, and this is bound to happen. Letting the best team win by merit has been dead for decades, but the final nail was letting someone like Abramovich buy a second rate club and buy their way into trophies within just a few years.

It’s one of the reasons I somewhat struggle to throw Tottenham and Arsenal into the same pile as the rest. For one, they aren’t as good, but also neither has been backed by spending hundreds of millions every transfer window. Offer them a chance to be among the elite and get a huge payday every season...from a financial standpoint, they’d be foolish not to take it.[/quote]

Which is why I wish these so called elite clubs can do one, leave our domestic leagues and be done with it.

Man City has pulled out now.

Seems fan uproar can pay off
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:32 pm

All of them talking about ending the proposal.

Perhaps it was all about getting better terms from UEFA for Champions League reforms.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:38 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

TBH, I am sure most English supporters like me couldn’t careless about the global brand. We’d happily see less money in the game, without the big name players.

We’d prefer to support our local teams in a competitive league, whereby teams win leagues on merit and not by buying the league.

Sadly money talks though. Until we can get a German model in England, nothing will change.


It’s too late for that though, the clubs are already global brands. The local support has already been thrown to the side, because it’s the international markets that bring in the big bucks. Look at preseason-used to be a summer camp in Austria or Spain for most, now it’s a global tour to Southeast Asia, or North America where they’ll sell out NFL stadiums for a friendly.

Arsene Wenger warned everyone. You let billionaires buy teams, and this is bound to happen. Letting the best team win by merit has been dead for decades, but the final nail was letting someone like Abramovich buy a second rate club and buy their way into trophies within just a few years.

It’s one of the reasons I somewhat struggle to throw Tottenham and Arsenal into the same pile as the rest. For one, they aren’t as good, but also neither has been backed by spending hundreds of millions every transfer window. Offer them a chance to be among the elite and get a huge payday every season...from a financial standpoint, they’d be foolish not to take it.


Which is why I wish these so called elite clubs can do one, leave our domestic leagues and be done with it.

Man City has pulled out now.

Seems fan uproar can pay off


Suspect it’s got more to do with managers threatening to quit.

But yeah I’ll gladly eat my words here. Turns out these owners are actually pretty stupid. They’re turning tail without even gaining any concessions. I suppose it was an entertaining distraction from the pandemic, but now they’ve turned their clubs into jokes.

Guessing the US-owned ones + RM will be the last to leave.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:42 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

It’s too late for that though, the clubs are already global brands. The local support has already been thrown to the side, because it’s the international markets that bring in the big bucks. Look at preseason-used to be a summer camp in Austria or Spain for most, now it’s a global tour to Southeast Asia, or North America where they’ll sell out NFL stadiums for a friendly.

Arsene Wenger warned everyone. You let billionaires buy teams, and this is bound to happen. Letting the best team win by merit has been dead for decades, but the final nail was letting someone like Abramovich buy a second rate club and buy their way into trophies within just a few years.

It’s one of the reasons I somewhat struggle to throw Tottenham and Arsenal into the same pile as the rest. For one, they aren’t as good, but also neither has been backed by spending hundreds of millions every transfer window. Offer them a chance to be among the elite and get a huge payday every season...from a financial standpoint, they’d be foolish not to take it.


Which is why I wish these so called elite clubs can do one, leave our domestic leagues and be done with it.

Man City has pulled out now.

Seems fan uproar can pay off


Suspect it’s got more to do with managers threatening to quit.

But yeah I’ll gladly eat my words here. Turns out these owners are actually pretty stupid. They’re turning tail without even gaining any concessions. I suppose it was an entertaining distraction from the pandemic, but now they’ve turned their clubs into jokes.

Guessing the US-owned ones + RM will be the last to leave.


I am not so sure managers would make a huge difference.

I think it was the get more concessions from UEFA. The new Champions League proposals are outreageous. Qualification wouldn’t only be on merit.
 
FGITD
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:42 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
All of them talking about ending the proposal.

Perhaps it was all about getting better terms from UEFA for Champions League reforms.


I’d be inclined to agree. It’s starting to look like this was a move to show what the clubs could do if they really wanted. A little reminder to UEFA.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:45 pm

FGITD wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
All of them talking about ending the proposal.

Perhaps it was all about getting better terms from UEFA for Champions League reforms.


I’d be inclined to agree. It’s starting to look like this was a move to show what the clubs could do if they really wanted. A little reminder to UEFA.


I do hope though this will lead to wholesale reform.

Especially in the English game.

Too much apathy though. We seem content with a pretty rubbish set up.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:48 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Which is why I wish these so called elite clubs can do one, leave our domestic leagues and be done with it.

Man City has pulled out now.

Seems fan uproar can pay off


Suspect it’s got more to do with managers threatening to quit.

But yeah I’ll gladly eat my words here. Turns out these owners are actually pretty stupid. They’re turning tail without even gaining any concessions. I suppose it was an entertaining distraction from the pandemic, but now they’ve turned their clubs into jokes.

Guessing the US-owned ones + RM will be the last to leave.


I am not so sure managers would make a huge difference.

I think it was the get more concessions from UEFA. The new Champions League proposals are outreageous. Qualification wouldn’t only be on merit.


If that’s the case, they should have disbanded in an orderly fashion yesterday, as soon as the UEFA decision was announced.

Right now it’s one dropping after the other - with leaks about who’s withdrawing. Not really a mark of a coherent group that’s worked together to achieve something.
 
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:53 pm

par13del wrote:
So how is the CL not greedy by increasing the number of games and expanding the number of teams?

...

I thought when the CL was founded that was a greed move as well, how times have changed.


The significant difference is that the CL is a merit-based competition. The SL is the exact opposite with teams guaranteed their places whether they're good enough or not. I don't think it's been clear how other clubs would 'qualify'.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:55 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Suspect it’s got more to do with managers threatening to quit.

But yeah I’ll gladly eat my words here. Turns out these owners are actually pretty stupid. They’re turning tail without even gaining any concessions. I suppose it was an entertaining distraction from the pandemic, but now they’ve turned their clubs into jokes.

Guessing the US-owned ones + RM will be the last to leave.


I am not so sure managers would make a huge difference.

I think it was the get more concessions from UEFA. The new Champions League proposals are outreageous. Qualification wouldn’t only be on merit.


If that’s the case, they should have disbanded in an orderly fashion yesterday, as soon as the UEFA decision was announced.

Right now it’s one dropping after the other - with leaks about who’s withdrawing. Not really a mark of a coherent group that’s worked together to achieve something.


They don’t seem to be the brighest bunch.

Whilst it was stated, they anticipated some backlash, the amount has been significant.

Add that in the threats to expel from domestic competitions, and their cause looks hopeless.

People would soon get bored of the same teams playing one another, year after year.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:59 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I do hope though this will lead to wholesale reform.

Especially in the English game.


What wholesale reform are you wanting?
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noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:05 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I do hope though this will lead to wholesale reform.

Especially in the English game.


What wholesale reform are you wanting?


What I want, will never happen.

But a move away from the £500,000 a week wages (see Paul Pogba’s contract demands).

In the first season of the Premier League, average players earnt £75,000 a year. What is average weekly wage now? £40,000?

Reasonable ticket prices (I paid nearly £30 to watch Barnet in the Conference).

The German model, how is a season ticket with Bayern under 200 Euros, but the cheapest at Chelsea or Arsenal is 3-4 times that.

A proper Champions League, similar to European Cup. Lets only have Champions in it.

Part fan ownership of clubs (again see German model).

I could ramble all night about this.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:18 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I do hope though this will lead to wholesale reform.

Especially in the English game.


What wholesale reform are you wanting?


What I want, will never happen.

But a move away from the £500,000 a week wages (see Paul Pogba’s contract demands).

In the first season of the Premier League, average players earnt £75,000 a year. What is average weekly wage now? £40,000?

Reasonable ticket prices (I paid nearly £30 to watch Barnet in the Conference).

The German model, how is a season ticket with Bayern under 200 Euros, but the cheapest at Chelsea or Arsenal is 3-4 times that.

A proper Champions League, similar to European Cup. Lets only have Champions in it.

Part fan ownership of clubs (again see German model).

I could ramble all night about this.


The genie's not getting back in the bottle.

Maybe you should move to Germany? Oh wait, this isn't the Brexit thread. :lol:
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noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What wholesale reform are you wanting?


What I want, will never happen.

But a move away from the £500,000 a week wages (see Paul Pogba’s contract demands).

In the first season of the Premier League, average players earnt £75,000 a year. What is average weekly wage now? £40,000?

Reasonable ticket prices (I paid nearly £30 to watch Barnet in the Conference).

The German model, how is a season ticket with Bayern under 200 Euros, but the cheapest at Chelsea or Arsenal is 3-4 times that.

A proper Champions League, similar to European Cup. Lets only have Champions in it.

Part fan ownership of clubs (again see German model).

I could ramble all night about this.


The genie's not getting back in the bottle.

Maybe you should move to Germany? Oh wait, this isn't the Brexit thread. :lol:


Exactly.

Unfortunately it is all about money and greed.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:08 pm

There's a few people here who don't understand football, but it seems like sanity is starting to prevail among some of the clubs who signed on this stillborn idea.

It is certainly not outside the realms of possibility, that UK clubs have been told of the possibility of introducing the German ownership model in the UK and/or telling them they've just signed their own death certificate in the EPL. The hasty retreat of Chelsea and City does speak volumes, as does the fact it's only the US owned clubs in the UK hanging on. But on the other hand, the power of the fans (i.e. the revenue source) has probably also been overwhelming, as millions protested. Not just the fans at home, but across the globe.
Last edited by B777LRF on Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dutchy
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

What I want, will never happen.

But a move away from the £500,000 a week wages (see Paul Pogba’s contract demands).

In the first season of the Premier League, average players earnt £75,000 a year. What is average weekly wage now? £40,000?

Reasonable ticket prices (I paid nearly £30 to watch Barnet in the Conference).

The German model, how is a season ticket with Bayern under 200 Euros, but the cheapest at Chelsea or Arsenal is 3-4 times that.

A proper Champions League, similar to European Cup. Lets only have Champions in it.

Part fan ownership of clubs (again see German model).

I could ramble all night about this.


The genie's not getting back in the bottle.

Maybe you should move to Germany? Oh wait, this isn't the Brexit thread. :lol:


Exactly.

Unfortunately it is all about money and greed.


it isn't the Brexit thread ;)
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windy95
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:19 pm

I am done with Chelsea fro joining this money grubbing abortion of an idea. Time to pick a new non Super League favorite. Perhaps Leeds UTD
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:32 pm

windy95 wrote:
I am done with Chelsea fro joining this money grubbing abortion of an idea. Time to pick a new non Super League favorite. Perhaps Leeds UTD


support a team that needs the support.

Southend are having a tough time.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:40 pm

Manchester City has decided not to proceed with the super league.

https://www.mancity.com/news/mens/club- ... w-63754546
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AeroVega
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:38 pm

I hope this is not going to end well for the owners of the clubs that were behind the ESL. I wouldn't mind seeing them disappear from European football alltogether. Let them sod off to Asia if they think that's where the money is.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:02 pm

AeroVega wrote:
I hope this is not going to end well for the owners of the clubs that were behind the ESL. I wouldn't mind seeing them disappear from European football alltogether. Let them sod off to Asia if they think that's where the money is.


Barcelona and Real Madrid are massively in debt.
 
wingman
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:10 pm

This Super League sure didn't last long. Unless Real and Barca stick it out and play 20 Clasicos each season.
 
alfa164
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:12 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I hope this is not going to end well for the owners of the clubs that were behind the ESL. I wouldn't mind seeing them disappear from European football alltogether. Let them sod off to Asia if they think that's where the money is.

Barcelona and Real Madrid are massively in debt.


At this point, I think all European clubs would be better off following the German example, and selling a percentage (hopefully, a controlling percentage) of the clubs to their local fans. That would raise the money thy claim they need - although it might be a fatal blow to their fragile egos.
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Revelation
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:03 pm

Ok, it seems SL is collapsing, but I'll ask: Is promotion/relegation overrated?

Sure, relegation means there is the "threat" of dropping out of the big leagues and losing lots of TV money, but the big teams with healthy revenue can spend on good enough players to be at no serious risk of being in the relegation zone.

Over decades of time there have been once great teams that have sunk and not come back up, but it seems this too was tied to money: an area that once thrived has suffered economically so they can't buy good players from outside and have to sell good players they develop to stay alive.

Promotion is a great goal for small clubs to aim for, but it seems few who get promoted manage to stay up for very long, even fewer have any impact on the standings. In essence it's mostly a changing of the names on the jerseys of the teams the big teams expect to beat.

I guess traditionalists will feel good that the SL didn't gain traction because it'd be the rich getting richer, but it doesn't change the fact that winning and money spent are still pretty strongly correlated and no one seems to be willing/able to make things more equitable.

Some great ideas from one league I follow:
1) Have a salary cap, with minimum and maximum spending levels for all teams
2) Share national TV revenue equally across all clubs, so even smaller clubs can fund their team payrolls
3) Have a system where the weaker clubs have first choice of young talent so they have a better chance to improve than the clubs that are already strong

I know this kind of system sounds socialist, but this is how the US NFL works.

And I'm not saying the NFL is perfect, but it does have some admirable qualities.

One of the articles I'm reading says "European soccer relies on the tenet that ‘anything is possible'". Anything is possible? It is possible that there is a fairy that collects the teeth we put under our pillow and leaves money in exchange, but at some point we figure out that's not likely to be how things work.
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sierrakilo44
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:33 pm

Revelation wrote:

Some great ideas from one league I follow:
1) Have a salary cap, with minimum and maximum spending levels for all teams
2) Share national TV revenue equally across all clubs, so even smaller clubs can fund their team payrolls
3) Have a system where the weaker clubs have first choice of young talent so they have a better chance to improve than the clubs that are already strong

I know this kind of system sounds socialist, but this is how the US NFL works.


Funny isn’t it. For all their cries of “socialism is evil” US sports leagues are brimming with socialist policy that provides a equal playing field, meaning in their leagues a very diverse range of teams succeed.

Whereas Europe has adopted a free market winner takes all system where big corporations basically buy their way to success which can be locked in permanently.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:45 am

The Champions League reform was enough for their need. With the new 5 year coefficient, big clubs will play CL, even if they only qualified for the Euro League, if they played CL in the last 5 years. In the end it means that some low key club could be fourth in the league and still not play CL because Manchester City reached position 7 and has played CL in the last 5 years.
 
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:02 am

alfa164 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
I hope this is not going to end well for the owners of the clubs that were behind the ESL. I wouldn't mind seeing them disappear from European football alltogether. Let them sod off to Asia if they think that's where the money is.

Barcelona and Real Madrid are massively in debt.


At this point, I think all European clubs would be better off following the German example, and selling a percentage (hopefully, a controlling percentage) of the clubs to their local fans. That would raise the money thy claim they need - although it might be a fatal blow to their fragile egos.


That was the case for most Spanish clubs, but as per today only 3 top fan-owned clubs remain: Real Madrid, Barça (which incidentally are also the most successful) plus At. Bilbao and Osasuna.

Ironically over here the race to get sheikhs and Russian oligarchs as club owners were precisely to try to even the playing field for the middle class clubs to challenge the big two who had a habit of absorbing most talent even at the youth development level.

The business practices of the Spanish big two are very much aligned with those with pro owners, though. You can barely tell the difference.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:18 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Funny isn’t it. For all their cries of “socialism is evil” US sports leagues are brimming with socialist policy that provides a equal playing field, meaning in their leagues a very diverse range of teams succeed.

Whereas Europe has adopted a free market winner takes all system where big corporations basically buy their way to success which can be locked in permanently.


The European system (or non system) has developed naturally, from clubs emanating from cities, players coming from these cities, etc. And these clubs train kids and teens and make some of them good players. In the US it's high schools and colleges doing that job, with massive amounts of money involved.

I don't see european clubs "giving" players they made to other teams, seeing them leave for millions is already problematic sometimes. I've read several articles (including one in the New York Times) pointing out that France was a huge maker of players for Europe, without really profiting from it.
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B777LRF
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:38 am

Aesma wrote:
I've read several articles (including one in the New York Times) pointing out that France was a huge maker of players for Europe, without really profiting from it.


From an American perspective, I suppose "profiting" means making money. But football, and sports in general, is ultimately about winning trophies, and with that perhaps making a monetary profit. But making money isn't (or shouldn't be) the aim; the aim is to win the tournaments they participate in. Fans support teams to win, not to make money.

The French national team has enjoyed a lot of success over the years; two FIFA World Cups, two UEFA European Cups, two FIFA Confederation Cups and one Olympic gold. That, in a sporting sense, is very much profiting on their excellent youth programs.
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889091
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:32 am

The six clubs must have read MOL's playbook. ;-)
 
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par13del
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:50 pm

So a question, does anyone think the greedy foreign owners actually have a plan?

1. The European Leagues attracted "foreign" ownership to allow the massive spend that we saw / see taking place, players salaries, marketing, stadiums etc.
2. Greedy foreign owners decided they want a bigger piece of the pie.
3. Super League is invented and announced.
4. Fan and establishment horror and attacks started immediately, which included the mantra that the foreign owners are greedy and are trying to destroy the game.

Now with the nationalist climate the Super League has generated, the time is ripe for the greedy foreign owners to cash out, anyone want to guess how much of an increase on their initial investment they will get in the climate that is in Europe today? Imagine the amount of government support / pressure that may be available to ensure that the beloved game is returned to the hands of local ownership?
The cynic in me says that these greedy foreign owners did not become billionaires / millionaires by being this dumb, something else is afoot and the first thought coming to my mind is a cash out of their investment. If they still want to invest in football, the South American continent is available and the salaries would be much lower, how much initial investment would be required to get the local talent to stay on the continent versus going to Europe with additional investment in football infrastructure? In 5 years time, the level of play on the continent across all teams can be vastly improved, and if they also invest in the local product in the USA, they may finally be able to get soccer in this part of the world on a higher level to compete with Europe, in essence, return football to "domestic" and only the world cup would be international. Yes there are countries in SA who have won world cups, yes there are thriving leagues with some super clubs, and yes there are players who always say they want to compete against the best, but somehow that desire has not kept salaries down especially when they see the mind boggling fees paid for transfers. So imagine the possibility if a group of new investors pump a few hundred million dollars into the SA "infrastructure".
Just a thought.
 
FGITD
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:52 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I've read several articles (including one in the New York Times) pointing out that France was a huge maker of players for Europe, without really profiting from it.


From an American perspective, I suppose "profiting" means making money. But football, and sports in general, is ultimately about winning trophies, and with that perhaps making a monetary profit. But making money isn't (or shouldn't be) the aim; the aim is to win the tournaments they participate in. Fans support teams to win, not to make money.

The French national team has enjoyed a lot of success over the years; two FIFA World Cups, two UEFA European Cups, two FIFA Confederation Cups and one Olympic gold. That, in a sporting sense, is very much profiting on their excellent youth programs.


The main issue that was going on in France was the national academies. They’d spend years and lots of money training these kids, and once they got old/good enough, they’d opt to play for Morocco, Algeria, Gabon, Ivory Coast etc because that’s where they were from. In some cases I don’t blame them. Making a team like France isn’t easy, so why not play for a lesser national team that you know you’ll get called up to. But it’s still a lost investment.

French clubs on the other hand seem to do alright. It seems Lyon is selling some academy products for a few million every other season
 
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:01 pm

It's simple really: this fiasco will become a paragon exhibit on how NOT to sell an idea. Especially a bad one. They are probably already printing the next generation marketing books with an entire chapter on the last 48 hours.

I did say in an earlier post that the aerial concept of such a league is not without merits. You can make a solid case for its hypothetical existence. But this "version" of the idea WAS bad, quite bad. And yet, truth be told, you can sell a bad idea to almost anyone, provided you are clever and charismatic enough presenting it to people. This is a world currently filled with machiavellian demagogues, and bizarre, dangerous cults. All rather awful ideas, yet people fall for them because they are either well-packaged, or smartly marketed, or spurred by charismatic leaders. Usually a combination of these.This version of the super league concept, being quite a bad idea even before considering any of the other factors, needed therefore brilliant marketing, immaculate packaging, and personable leadership in order to have a chance of being sold in the marketplace.

It had none of them.

The marketing and packaging both were nonexistent. Just an announcement out of nowhere and then, empty air that was left behind the shockwave. One of the main rules of selling is that if you intend to make a big splash, make sure you fill the posterior void with things YOU want people to hear about your proposal or product, never leave much room to be filled by anything or anyone else. Multimedia, merchandise, events, etc. that will create buzz and excitement around your product should be at the ready, especially when you will cause controversy. The austere announcement with the huge void thereafter is rank amateur mistake. Do you just expect your past name or "logo" to do it for you on a new venture? Shocking incompetence, though committed by many huge corporations before. On the marketing side, you always assume that you need to win over everyone, every day, again and again, even your existing customers. It is the endless battle you will never win, yet you can lose at any moment. The marketing of this around the necessary football circles was appalling, if it can even be called marketing. And it is obvious that even among the people involved, the main movers had not remotely sold the product and secured the loyalty of most others in the clique. Assuming that your idea will do the job for you is the biggest killer of even good concepts (which this one was not). Finally, the third aspect: the need for charismatic salespeople or leadership. The generals in thi this case? Billionaire sports owners. Enough said.

Bad idea, awful marketing, no packaging, no true leader. And just to make it even more dire throw in atrocious timing for good measure. Even good ideas with great marketing, packaging, and leadership have hit the dust if the coming out time was not propitious. Wealthy teams and wealthier business people going ahead with a transparent money ploy, at a time when the vast majority of football clubs the world over (even Europe), are fighting for their survival, to not even speak about the global pandemic killing millions and leaving many more jobless or in precarious finances, and with people suffering financially or mentally? Probably a pretty darn poor time to try to pull a trick like this off

And yeah, number 5: not even consulting your customers (the fans), many of whom are in fact micro-owners? Talk about hubris out of control. Who would have thought it... the paying members of a CLUB outraged that a fundamental shift in the institution was not even once brought up for debate and discussion?

The reaction was so negative and visceral because this project managed to pull of the 4 knotted rope of death: bad idea, poor marketing, ugly packaging, and bad timing. Oh, and number 5, since unlike regular businesses, this domain contains the fanaticism of legions of members who must and should be taken into account, and were not..

A debacle and a case study for the ages.
Last edited by Derico on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ltbewr
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:02 pm

There seemed to be a mix of factors that has led to the abandonment of the proposed Super League. One thought is that the team owners failed to 'read the room', in particular of the fans. This USA ESPN article suggests a number of factors in the crash of this bad idea: https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-marcot ... m-and-uefa
 
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:12 pm

I found the following to be a good explainer about the CL reform:

UEFA’s reforms don’t give the former Super League clubs political control of European soccer, but they will help those clubs increase their financial grip on the game.

They also go one huge step closer to removing the “jeopardy” that these owners are worried about, but weaken the appeal of both the Premier League and the Champions League as a result.

The European Super League proposal might have fallen flat on its face (for now), but the threat of a breakaway league has caused UEFA to give those clubs’ owners what they wanted: more European matches, and less risk.

Ref: https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveprice ... -jeopardy/

So it advances the interests of the big clubs within the CL format, without the naked power grab that was the SL.

Basically it says the top seven finishers in EPL are effectively guaranteed a CL spot, and as my post about relegation/promotion above suggests, it's a fantasy to think your local town/county club is gonna push anyone out of the top ranks. The coefficient math favors the long term success that money usually buys i.e. it reduces the risk the money men are afraid of, but stifles the upward motion of fresh blood that fans want to see.

JJJ wrote:
Ironically over here the race to get sheikhs and Russian oligarchs as club owners were precisely to try to even the playing field for the middle class clubs to challenge the big two who had a habit of absorbing most talent even at the youth development level.

The business practices of the Spanish big two are very much aligned with those with pro owners, though. You can barely tell the difference.

Interesting points.

Derico wrote:
It's simple really: this fiasco will become a paragon exhibit on how NOT to sell an idea. Especially a bad one. They are probably already printing the next generation marketing books with an entire chapter on the last 48 hours.
....
A debacle and a case study for the ages.

I think the case study will need to include how the CL reform ended up giving the big clubs much of what they were after, and the role that the SL concept did or did not play in triggering the CL reform.
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:43 pm

Slightly off topic, but the sport of golf was recently experiencing a similar problem/crisis to football (the more marketable players were grumbling about having to share they money they generated).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewjco ... d-to-know/

The PGL, or Premier Golf League, was created to provide a world tour of elite golfers, sign them to contracts to play, and they would compete for guarantee paid purses worldwide (most tournaments have a cut midway where approx half the field receives no prize money and their week is done). The organization was heavily funded by Saudi government interests (who are in the middle of trying to make Saudi Arabia a golf destination). It got mixed reactions from the players, most saying they would consider it but would wait on further details. Rory McElroy said he was out, and that killed some momentum of PGL. Naturally, the PGATour wanted to squash this league before it ever began, first threatening that any player who signs with the league would be banished from the PGATour, in addition to recently announcing a new lucrative TV rights deal.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-to ... c-and-espn

After months of behind the scene negotiations, the PGATour announced yesterday the formation of a $40 million annual prize fund to be distributed to the top 10 golfers who generate the most marketing buzz (using some very vague metrics).

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/04/2 ... ssion=true

Should be noted that Rory McIlroy was recently voted to lead the Players Advisory Council, the golfers' non-union bargaining organization, and they had a big hand in spurring the new marketing prize fund.

The parallels between what is happening in golf and what is happening in football are quite staggering. I just think it's funny that once again, the Saudis fund something that causes Americans to stupidly overreact.
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:56 pm

par13del wrote:
So a question, does anyone think the greedy foreign owners actually have a plan?

1. The European Leagues attracted "foreign" ownership to allow the massive spend that we saw / see taking place, players salaries, marketing, stadiums etc.
2. Greedy foreign owners decided they want a bigger piece of the pie.
3. Super League is invented and announced.
4. Fan and establishment horror and attacks started immediately, which included the mantra that the foreign owners are greedy and are trying to destroy the game.

Now with the nationalist climate the Super League has generated, the time is ripe for the greedy foreign owners to cash out, anyone want to guess how much of an increase on their initial investment they will get in the climate that is in Europe today? Imagine the amount of government support / pressure that may be available to ensure that the beloved game is returned to the hands of local ownership?
The cynic in me says that these greedy foreign owners did not become billionaires / millionaires by being this dumb, something else is afoot and the first thought coming to my mind is a cash out of their investment. If they still want to invest in football, the South American continent is available and the salaries would be much lower, how much initial investment would be required to get the local talent to stay on the continent versus going to Europe with additional investment in football infrastructure? In 5 years time, the level of play on the continent across all teams can be vastly improved, and if they also invest in the local product in the USA, they may finally be able to get soccer in this part of the world on a higher level to compete with Europe, in essence, return football to "domestic" and only the world cup would be international. Yes there are countries in SA who have won world cups, yes there are thriving leagues with some super clubs, and yes there are players who always say they want to compete against the best, but somehow that desire has not kept salaries down especially when they see the mind boggling fees paid for transfers. So imagine the possibility if a group of new investors pump a few hundred million dollars into the SA "infrastructure".
Just a thought.


The owners may well decide it's time to pull the plug, but if they want to invest in football Europe is the only game in town. Sure they could invest in South American clubs, but that would be akin to investing in a Spanish basketball team rather than a NBA team. NBA is where the audience and money is, and it's in the EPL, La Liga, the Bundesliga and Seria A the money in football is. One of the biggest pulls of Europe is the possibility of competing in the CL or EL, where the biggest clubs from across the continent battle it out. Those games, along with games in the big-4 national leagues, is where the audience and money's at. In contrast there's little, if any, international appeal in the Argentinian or Brazilian national leagues, and I don't even know if there's a South African equivalent to the CL or EL - that should tell you all about the appeal.

Fundamentally the foreign owners of European football clubs underestimated the power of the fans, the national leagues and UEFA. With many of them being American, it is not unlikely that is indeed the case, and they thought they could introduce American practices to the game. But they utterly failed to properly gauge the history and culture of football and sports in Europe, where a fundamental point is the pyramid model. Even a Burnley, Osasuna, Atalanta or Herta Berlin fan knows there's a theoretical chance they might win their national league, and it's not that long ago Leicester proved it can be done in the EPL. That's what the fans live and breath to see, and the Super League proposed to dispense with that fundamental principle. It works in the NFL, NBA and NHL, but it'll never work in European football.
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:18 pm

B777LRF wrote:

The owners may well decide it's time to pull the plug, but if they want to invest in football Europe is the only game in town.

Its where it is now, it was not always this big, let's not downplay the role satellite TV and internet has played in the global popularity, it can be replicated elsewhere if the will is there.
As more and more countries around the world watch their stars doing well in the Europe market, nationalism will grow, will not be long before the World Cup is not enough for them to see their local stars play the game.

Another poster mentioned golf, lets recall that the European tour had to implement limits to ensure that their local players played a minimum number of tournaments on the domestic side, without that, the bulk of players would have defected to the PGA tour where more money was to be had. Let's see the effect of the Master's win on golf in Japan and the Asian market.
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:03 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Fundamentally the foreign owners of European football clubs underestimated the power of the fans, the national leagues and UEFA. With many of them being American, it is not unlikely that is indeed the case, and they thought they could introduce American practices to the game. But they utterly failed to properly gauge the history and culture of football and sports in Europe, where a fundamental point is the pyramid model. Even a Burnley, Osasuna, Atalanta or Herta Berlin fan knows there's a theoretical chance they might win their national league, and it's not that long ago Leicester proved it can be done in the EPL. That's what the fans live and breath to see, and the Super League proposed to dispense with that fundamental principle. It works in the NFL, NBA and NHL, but it'll never work in European football.

Seems to me akin to the reason why some people voted for Trump: he's a billionaire, and I'm going to be a billionaire some day too, so I don't want to vote against my interests.

Meanwhile, CL reform gave the big clubs a big slice of what they wanted, making it harder for a "one hit wonder" to move into the top ranks. The SL thing is grabbing everyone's eyeballs so they feel vindication, meanwhile CL reform went in without a peep, with people saying it's the better of two evils, rather than saying both are evil.
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:35 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I've read several articles (including one in the New York Times) pointing out that France was a huge maker of players for Europe, without really profiting from it.


From an American perspective, I suppose "profiting" means making money. But football, and sports in general, is ultimately about winning trophies, and with that perhaps making a monetary profit. But making money isn't (or shouldn't be) the aim; the aim is to win the tournaments they participate in. Fans support teams to win, not to make money.

The French national team has enjoyed a lot of success over the years; two FIFA World Cups, two UEFA European Cups, two FIFA Confederation Cups and one Olympic gold. That, in a sporting sense, is very much profiting on their excellent youth programs.

Beyond national boundary this is hardly true for any and all the seasonal group sports being played on TV
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:05 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I've read several articles (including one in the New York Times) pointing out that France was a huge maker of players for Europe, without really profiting from it.


From an American perspective, I suppose "profiting" means making money. But football, and sports in general, is ultimately about winning trophies, and with that perhaps making a monetary profit. But making money isn't (or shouldn't be) the aim; the aim is to win the tournaments they participate in. Fans support teams to win, not to make money.

The French national team has enjoyed a lot of success over the years; two FIFA World Cups, two UEFA European Cups, two FIFA Confederation Cups and one Olympic gold. That, in a sporting sense, is very much profiting on their excellent youth programs.


Actually the french here mean "profiting" in the "European" way. The French club make big money from selling players. But the French Clubs don't win trophies.

Interestingly it is the EU and free movement of people that made it possible for so much money to get involved in Football.
Until the early 1990-ties only three foreign players were allowed on the pitch. Thus only the best of the best could play abroad. For example at the time the best league was Serie A (Italy) and lets say the top clubs (6 teams) could play only 18 non Italians. Now those teams play with perhaps 36 foreigners on the pitch or even more. Thus all the best players can play in a few leagues, and smaller leagues become less attractive.
In 1993 Olympique Marseille won the only Champions League for France. (Also that was the first time the competition was called Champions League). In the time 7 french International players (3 of the will win 98 WC) and Alen Bokšić, Abedi Pelé (Ayew) and Rudi Völler (German WC 90 winner).
Then came Bossman...
Jean-Marc Bosman was an average Belgian player. He had no contract left and his club didn't want to give him a new contract. Unemployed he looked for a new club and found one. But his old club, not employing him anymore, asked the new club for transfert fee. Dunkerque (would have been the new club) couldn't or wouldn't pay the fee and Bosman was without a job and could do nothing about it. Somehow UEFA and European Leagues thought this was fair.
Since his old club was Belgian and the new would have French, Bosman went to the EU court. Of course the almighty UEFA thought that they could crush the tiny unknown player. But the EU court ruled this system illegal hence at the end of the contract a player becomes a free agent (first reason for ever increasing transfer fees). But the EU court also noticed something else (if I remember correctly not part of Bosman's original case): the 3 foreigner rule infringe on free movement of EU citizens. Since than there are no limits on EU-players on the pitch.

While I belive that without Bosman, European football would have evolved in the same direction, I think the difference of level between leagues would be far less and transfer fees as well as wages lower.

And to come back to my original answer: without Bosman, French clubs would have won much more silverware but collectively would be less rich...

Best regards and stay safe,
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Re: Football (Soccer} Super League

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:24 pm

par13del wrote:
Its where it is now, it was not always this big, let's not downplay the role satellite TV and internet has played in the global popularity, it can be replicated elsewhere if the will is there.
As more and more countries around the world watch their stars doing well in the Europe market, nationalism will grow, will not be long before the World Cup is not enough for them to see their local stars play the game.


The Big.4 national leagues have always dominated football, and it's where any talented footballer's ambitions rests. The only notable exception is Pele, who by law was prevented from moving to Europe. But that's very much the exception, and there's not even a remote possibility the European national and international leagues will lose their dominance in the near, medium or long-term future. The role satellite TV and internet has played, is making matches with European teams globally available; virtually nobody in China is interested in watching Boca Juniors playing Santos, but schedule a match between Man U and Liverpool, and the viewing figures will be through the roof. Schedule a CL match between Bayern M and Barcelona, and the viewing figures will beat those of top-flight matches in the Chinese national league. The European leagues is where the talent, TV audience, professional attention and - not least of all - the money's at.
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