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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:47 am

par13del wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As a foreigner looking in I must say I find it sickening that people in countries that have hoarded the vaccines (which caused the supply chain to slow down for other countries) are choosing to listen to uneducated blowhards and choose not to vaccinate themselves.

Absolutely sickening. Imagine how many people would have lived if they had gotten the vaccine that these hideous anti-vaxxers have declined, especially in countries that are not as well off as these hoarder countries.

In reality, the anit-vaxers are not the one's who hoarded the vaccines or prevented their export, that was done by the politicians. Now were they following the advise of the medical community, and if they were, how come the medical professionals who supposedly work in the community on a daily basis prior to COVID had no idea that there would be hesitancy?


To be more accurate, politicians did that *after* being leaned on by pharma lobbyists who want to protect their IP.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:48 am

casinterest wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
I'm a bit more optimistic for you guys. Obviously it's disappointing to see the rollout drop towards 2m/day, but there's reasons to be positive. You've got 55.8% of your adults vaccinated (first dose) with only just starting to use measures to encourage vaccination. So incentives like beer(! NJ iirc) and $100 in some state. It's clear some states - Hawaii seem keenest - will be giving some benefits to travellers who have been vaccinated. And even if this benefits can be had with a recent PCR test, it's still a hassle people will want to avoid. Same with some employers and colleges - though I know some red states have moved to legislate against discrimination on vaccine grounds.

But most of all time. The hardcore will never have the vaccine, but I'm sure there's a huge cohort who just aren't that comfortable just yet, and with the passage of time demonstrating the safety of the vaccines, and as it has become something you can do on an impulse, at a walk in centre or a pharmacy, people who were previously hesitant will trickle in. It's interesting to see that the number of over 65's has crept up to 82.6% which is good news.

So how do you get from 55.8% to the 85% of adults you will probably need (along with a good chunk of under 18's)? While the national picture may suggest a slowing down due to hesitancy at a state level it looks like a good half are still using their allocation. Those states are going to drive it. But it seems to me there are other options. Obviously immunity from infection will play a part. But there's also boosters. What I mean, is the various calculations on how many people do you need to be vaccinated for herd immunity, make assumptions about vaccine efficacy for example. So, per the NYT article, the old figures for herd immunity were 60-70%, but more transmissible variants have driven that up to 80%. But boosters, particularly of a different vaccine, and especially one tailored to the more transmissible variants could drive that number down again. Israel is looking to give 4 vaccine doses to its population this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the US doesn't do similar, or at least one in autumn and another in winter/spring.



Looking at Israel, they are having great success with their rollout. The cases are down to less than 100 per day. North Carolina is still averaging 1724 per day with only 50% more residents.

We need the herd immunity, and I am still hopeful we can get there by the mechanisms you have outlines. I have seen that Target, the local groceries, and other places now have walk up vaccine appointments. Hopefully we get there. But we need to keep the trend going.

At 80+% of seniors vaccinated we are getting closer to success as that is where most deaths came from, but it would be great to get to 90+%.

There is some hope that some of the unvaccinated already had it. There are studies suggesting there is less than an 20% chance of reinfection for those that have already survived it.

What we need to do is further slow the virus. Vaccinating children as soon as possible will help.

I have no idea while the USA and European Union has so many not willing to get the vaccine. I do not consider it Vaccine hesitant anymore. They have the information they need. I've had several people flat out tell me they won't "experiment with the vaccine as enough others will get it." Well... Not enough others will. One was from an individual who has had Covid19 twice (1st mild, second has some miserable long haul symptoms).
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
casinterest wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
I'm a bit more optimistic for you guys. Obviously it's disappointing to see the rollout drop towards 2m/day, but there's reasons to be positive. You've got 55.8% of your adults vaccinated (first dose) with only just starting to use measures to encourage vaccination. So incentives like beer(! NJ iirc) and $100 in some state. It's clear some states - Hawaii seem keenest - will be giving some benefits to travellers who have been vaccinated. And even if this benefits can be had with a recent PCR test, it's still a hassle people will want to avoid. Same with some employers and colleges - though I know some red states have moved to legislate against discrimination on vaccine grounds.

But most of all time. The hardcore will never have the vaccine, but I'm sure there's a huge cohort who just aren't that comfortable just yet, and with the passage of time demonstrating the safety of the vaccines, and as it has become something you can do on an impulse, at a walk in centre or a pharmacy, people who were previously hesitant will trickle in. It's interesting to see that the number of over 65's has crept up to 82.6% which is good news.

So how do you get from 55.8% to the 85% of adults you will probably need (along with a good chunk of under 18's)? While the national picture may suggest a slowing down due to hesitancy at a state level it looks like a good half are still using their allocation. Those states are going to drive it. But it seems to me there are other options. Obviously immunity from infection will play a part. But there's also boosters. What I mean, is the various calculations on how many people do you need to be vaccinated for herd immunity, make assumptions about vaccine efficacy for example. So, per the NYT article, the old figures for herd immunity were 60-70%, but more transmissible variants have driven that up to 80%. But boosters, particularly of a different vaccine, and especially one tailored to the more transmissible variants could drive that number down again. Israel is looking to give 4 vaccine doses to its population this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the US doesn't do similar, or at least one in autumn and another in winter/spring.



Looking at Israel, they are having great success with their rollout. The cases are down to less than 100 per day. North Carolina is still averaging 1724 per day with only 50% more residents.

We need the herd immunity, and I am still hopeful we can get there by the mechanisms you have outlines. I have seen that Target, the local groceries, and other places now have walk up vaccine appointments. Hopefully we get there. But we need to keep the trend going.

At 80+% of seniors vaccinated we are getting closer to success as that is where most deaths came from, but it would be great to get to 90+%.

There is some hope that some of the unvaccinated already had it. There are studies suggesting there is less than an 20% chance of reinfection for those that have already survived it.

What we need to do is further slow the virus. Vaccinating children as soon as possible will help.

I have no idea while the USA and European Union has so many not willing to get the vaccine. I do not consider it Vaccine hesitant anymore. They have the information they need. I've had several people flat out tell me they won't "experiment with the vaccine as enough others will get it." Well... Not enough others will. One was from an individual who has had Covid19 twice (1st mild, second has some miserable long haul symptoms).





It appears kids 12-16 might get the go ahead for pfizer in the next two weeks.
https://www.wyff4.com/article/fda-to-ok ... s/36322943

The FDA action will be followed by a meeting of a federal vaccine advisory committee to discuss whether to recommend the shot for 12- to 15-year-olds. Shots could begin after the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention adopts the committee's recommendation. Those steps could be completed in a matter of days.



We will be battling misinformation forever.

I am not going to quote from it, but if you want to understand how bad the right wing misinformation stream is, just read the following article

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... ol-forever
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.

Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.


Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

Im a Democrat myself. Ive never voted for a Republican literally ever.

And yes the Democrats have made this every bit as political as Republicans. Heres the evidence for that.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/how- ... behaviors/

41% of the Democrats somehow think that the odds of going to the hospital if you get Covid is over 50%. Where would they get that? Probably because the networks Democrats like to watch (CNN/MSNBC) constantly peddle fear and over exaggerate themselves.

Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

Bottom line: the left consumes a lot of fear porn willingly. At first it was because the networks wanted to harm Trump but now that train is going too fast to be stopped. While you can argue that its better to be paranoid than ignorant, you cant argue that somehow the Democrats arent making this political. Sure Id personally rather have Joy Reid giving me advice than a giant SCUMBAG like Tucker Carlson, but I purposely dont listen to either now because they are both doing more harm than help (though Carlson is obviously a LOT worse).

Ill leave this article from Dr. Ashish Jha. Hes been a very level headed voice in this pandemic with a history of striking the right chords at the right time.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity

Disclaimer: I have had Covid myself and Ive been vaccinated. Im not an anti-masker either.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 2:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
Especially when he wants to confuse reported deaths with actually causing the deaths. The Greatest Generation would be disappointed in everyone that watches Fox news. Those folks are who we had to fight in Europe. Uninformed fascists'.

I could only imagine what they'd have to say about people ignoring a global pandemic for political expediency, and people whining about having to wear a mask, people putting their own convenience ahead of other people's health.

Derico wrote:
Respiratory viruses are by their nature, impossible to eradicate. Especially when they have a quick enough rate of mutation. Anyone on this planet who thought the vaccines would put the fragrance sprayed all over the house back in the spray bottle was just in denial or utterly misinformed.

The fragrance fades once it leaves the bottle, the virus dies at some point after it leaves its host.

einsteinboricua wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.

That's because they didn't talk about "herd immunity" but rather "herd mentality"...and it shows...like cattle. One says no, they all say no. One person posts on Facebook, they're suddenly the expert.

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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 3:01 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

You couldn't be more wrong. I haven't had cable tv for years, haven't watched a second of MSNBC/Fox/etc since before Drumph was elected.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

Mr. Dude, it is you who should stop watching cable tv.

You've framed this 100% in a political context, with no connection to the basic truth that this is a public health emergency and not a willie wagging contest.

A fish doesn't know he's swimming in water till you take him out of it. For you, politics is water, you need to get out of it for a while to realize how deep you're letting yourself swim in it.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

First you say there is a wide spectrum of opinion in the medical community, then you lash out at CDC for not having anticipated all that opinion before it appeared, resolved it, and rendered clear guidance before any speculation emerged?

Do you really think that is possible?

Why are we as a society so impatient?

Don't we realize this is an evolving situation?

Can't we accept that some advice given earlier on is now outdated and just follow the improved guidance?

Why do we instead say "well they didn't anticipate everything perfectly months ago so now I'll ignore what they say" instead of following updated advice?

Seems to me it's because we as a society are impatient and self centered and just want to do what WE want to do regardless of any impact on others.

Wash your hands, wear your mask, maintain social distancing. Stop making it all about you.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 3:13 pm

While I am a believer, I also fully espouse evolution in about everything that is important. Evolution is a starting point to understand how we think, how we act, how we create meaning, why politics is so hard, and even how religion arose. In the midst of a pandemic I want the best minds in science and public health to know how the virus works and how we can fight it.

Probably just about most people who think that all of this is the case would not vote for most of the Republican leadership we now have.

ps - in the very olden days I was an Eisenhower Republican.

pps - I have told my friends and relatives who reject all of this and refuse to get the vaccine, I still love you, I just don't want to be around you indoors and unmasked.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 3:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

You couldn't be more wrong. I haven't had cable tv for years, haven't watched a second of MSNBC/Fox/etc since before Drumph was elected.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

Mr. Dude, it is you who should stop watching cable tv.

You've framed this 100% in a political context, with no connection to the basic truth that this is a public health emergency and not a willie wagging contest.

A fish doesn't know he's swimming in water till you take him out of it. For you, politics is water, you need to get out of it for a while to realize how deep you're letting yourself swim in it.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

First you say there is a wide spectrum of opinion in the medical community, then you lash out at CDC for not having anticipated all that opinion before it appeared, resolved it, and rendered clear guidance before any speculation emerged?

Do you really think that is possible?

Why are we as a society so impatient?

Don't we realize this is an evolving situation?

Can't we accept that some advice given earlier on is now outdated and just follow the improved guidance?

Why do we instead say "well they didn't anticipate everything perfectly months ago so now I'll ignore what they say" instead of following updated advice?

Seems to me it's because we as a society are impatient and self centered and just want to do what WE want to do regardless of any impact on others.

Wash your hands, wear your mask, maintain social distancing. Stop making it all about you.


Oh please.

Frankly, there is NO separating politics out of this and it takes an extreme degree of naivety to think its even possible at this point. You yourself injected politics into this discussion. Maybe you didnt realize it, but you did.

You said:

"Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue."

You injected your own politics into the issue. I dont blame you for it, its impossible to separate from this.

We cant separate politics and the media's biases from this. Sorry. You can only put blinders on your eyes and pretend its not there.

As for the CDC, Im not talking about advice they gave when the virus first hit. Im talking about the advice they gave once vaccines started being administered. Their messaging was awful though it has since been better. Then there is another factor to go with it, the CDC is ALSO political. If it wasnt then we wouldnt have different messaging depending on who was president.

Frankly Mr. Revolution, youre trying to look at it only from one lens (public health) and it simply doesnt and wouldnt work unless we lived in a perfect world. That takes human nature completely out of the picture and focuses only on science. That would be great if: 1) people were robots, obeyed commands, and had no desire for social interaction or 2) if we lived in an authoritarian regime. It just isnt that simple in most of the world. We should focus on science but we will be massive failures if we dont take into considering the habits of humans and, very unfortunately, that very much includes the political climate weve been for the last year.
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Tue May 04, 2021 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:08 pm

We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.


It’s called “medical advice” for a reason, it’s advice, part of the picture, not the only directive.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.

It’s called “medical advice” for a reason, it’s advice, part of the picture, not the only directive.

ATC also issues advisories.

Ignore them at your peril.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.


Ok then. If you were in power, what would your policies look like given the current situation with Covid?
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:30 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.


Ok then. If you were in power, what would your policies look like given the current situation with Covid?

I already gave it above: Wash your hands, wear your mask, maintain social distancing.

Not too much to ask for, is it?
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 4:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.


Ok then. If you were in power, what would your policies look like given the current situation with Covid?

I already gave it above: Wash your hands, wear your mask, maintain social distancing.

Not too much to ask for, is it?


Depends on who you ask. The distancing part is actually a lot to ask for. IMO, the mask isnt much to ask but everyone is different.
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StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 5:37 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.

Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.


Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

Im a Democrat myself. Ive never voted for a Republican literally ever.

And yes the Democrats have made this every bit as political as Republicans. Heres the evidence for that.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/how- ... behaviors/

41% of the Democrats somehow think that the odds of going to the hospital if you get Covid is over 50%. Where would they get that? Probably because the networks Democrats like to watch (CNN/MSNBC) constantly peddle fear and over exaggerate themselves.

Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

Bottom line: the left consumes a lot of fear porn willingly. At first it was because the networks wanted to harm Trump but now that train is going too fast to be stopped. While you can argue that its better to be paranoid than ignorant, you cant argue that somehow the Democrats arent making this political. Sure Id personally rather have Joy Reid giving me advice than a giant SCUMBAG like Tucker Carlson, but I purposely dont listen to either now because they are both doing more harm than help (though Carlson is obviously a LOT worse).

Ill leave this article from Dr. Ashish Jha. Hes been a very level headed voice in this pandemic with a history of striking the right chords at the right time.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity

Disclaimer: I have had Covid myself and Ive been vaccinated. Im not an anti-masker either.


The CDC didn't know initially how much transmission was prevented by vaccine and now there is a pretty good idea that its significant, thus the change in guidelines.

Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people. As you said keeping the restrictions is one of the biggest deterrents for many regarding this vaccine. Even in Canada where mask mandates go further at least regards in being inside. People hardly wear them outside and I think the idea of wearing a mask outside as nonsensical anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W20UGJA3b5k

Here is a doozy of bad messaging from Canada. Saying that Pfizer and Moderna are preferred vaccines when AZ and J&J are available. This point might be true but drives vaccine hesitancy, and even though the statement has been withdrawn the damage is done.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/na ... sion-anger
Last edited by StarAC17 on Tue May 04, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 5:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
We will be massive failures if we ignore medical advice and let the shouts of the least informed and in many cases willfully ignorant guide our actions.


Not everyone in the medical community agrees and from north of the border this isn't exactly constructive.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/editoria ... ce-doctors

Essentially this silences other doctors that disagree with the opinion of public health.
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 5:43 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.


Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

Im a Democrat myself. Ive never voted for a Republican literally ever.

And yes the Democrats have made this every bit as political as Republicans. Heres the evidence for that.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/how- ... behaviors/

41% of the Democrats somehow think that the odds of going to the hospital if you get Covid is over 50%. Where would they get that? Probably because the networks Democrats like to watch (CNN/MSNBC) constantly peddle fear and over exaggerate themselves.

Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

Bottom line: the left consumes a lot of fear porn willingly. At first it was because the networks wanted to harm Trump but now that train is going too fast to be stopped. While you can argue that its better to be paranoid than ignorant, you cant argue that somehow the Democrats arent making this political. Sure Id personally rather have Joy Reid giving me advice than a giant SCUMBAG like Tucker Carlson, but I purposely dont listen to either now because they are both doing more harm than help (though Carlson is obviously a LOT worse).

Ill leave this article from Dr. Ashish Jha. Hes been a very level headed voice in this pandemic with a history of striking the right chords at the right time.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity

Disclaimer: I have had Covid myself and Ive been vaccinated. Im not an anti-masker either.


The CDC didn't know initially how much transmission was prevented by vaccine and now there is a pretty good idea that its significant, thus the change in guidelines.

Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people. As you said keeping the restrictions is one of the biggest deterrents for many regarding this vaccine. Even in Canada where mask mandates go further at least regards in being inside. People hardly wear them outside and I think the idea of wearing a mask outside as nonsensical anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W20UGJA3b5k


The issue is that once the cases start to plummet as they did in Israel and other places, the US will start lifting many restrictions. Those without the vaccine are going to be navigating an iffy world. They will be in danger if case levels remain high. The vaccinated are going to want a return to normal,. The more vaccinated people we have, the faster the virus itself becomes a null issue.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 5:54 pm

Even those vaccinated should wear masks, strictly going by science.

Yes, vaccination stops serious illness, hospitalization and death of those vaccinated

Vaccination doesn't stop contraction, replication and spread of virus.

Replication brings mutations, some mutations will be evasive, vaccine becomes useless and possibility of reinfection of those vaccinated.

If we want to end the pandemic, end replication and spread. Only way to do that is with mask even those vaccinated.

This is where CDC cheer-leading guidance fails science.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even those vaccinated should wear masks, strictly going by science.

Yes, vaccination stops serious illness, hospitalization and death of those vaccinated

Vaccination doesn't stop contraction, replication and spread of virus.

Replication brings mutations, some mutations will be evasive, vaccine becomes useless and possibility of reinfection of those vaccinated.

If we want to end the pandemic, end replication and spread. Only way to do that is with mask even those vaccinated.

This is where CDC cheer-leading guidance fails science.


Incorrect.

"The emerging data confirms what many of us thought would be the case—that not only do the vaccines stop symptomatic COVID, but they also make it highly unlikely that someone can even be infected at all."

"I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the fact that vaccinated individuals are not able to spread the virus."

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles ... duals.html

"From December 14, 2020, to March 13, 2021, researchers observed the efficacy of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines among 3,950 participants by having each individual self-collect nasal swabs for COVID-19 testing each week.2 They aimed to examine vaccine efficacy against infection, including asymptomatic infections.

The study revealed that two or more weeks after the second dose, participants’ risk of infection dropped by a whopping 90%. The CDC researchers also found that 80% of participants in the U.S were protected against COVID-19 after just one dose. Similar studies conducted in the United Kingdom and Israel—the world’s leading vaccinated country—showed that one dose of two-dose vaccines yielded 60 to 70% effectiveness against COVID-19.2"

https://www.verywellhealth.com/cdc-stud ... es-5121080
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StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even those vaccinated should wear masks, strictly going by science.

Yes, vaccination stops serious illness, hospitalization and death of those vaccinated

Vaccination doesn't stop contraction, replication and spread of virus.

Replication brings mutations, some mutations will be evasive, vaccine becomes useless and possibility of reinfection of those vaccinated.

If we want to end the pandemic, end replication and spread. Only way to do that is with mask even those vaccinated.

This is where CDC cheer-leading guidance fails science.


While true that vaccination does not necessarily stop contraction of the virus thus the potential of transmission if you aren't getting sick then your viral load is lower to the point where transmission is far less and that means less replication and subsequent generations of the virus slowing mutation. Mutations happen through the amount of reproductive generations and if that is reduced then mutations are slowed as they are random.

What makes covid so contagious is that the viral loads get so high that it spreads easily. It does this because it evades the immune system well but with a vaccination your body will react far quicker because it's seen the spike protein from the vaccines.

Transmission is being reduced significantly.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/englis ... 021-04-28/

For the amount of total vaccinated in the US, breakthrough infections are very low.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/b ... index.html
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Francoflier
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even those vaccinated should wear masks, strictly going by science.

Yes, vaccination stops serious illness, hospitalization and death of those vaccinated

Vaccination doesn't stop contraction, replication and spread of virus.

Replication brings mutations, some mutations will be evasive, vaccine becomes useless and possibility of reinfection of those vaccinated.

If we want to end the pandemic, end replication and spread. Only way to do that is with mask even those vaccinated.

This is where CDC cheer-leading guidance fails science.


Not true.
Vaccines have been shown to vastly reduce replication, spread and therefore mutation of the virus.

They may not be 100% effective, but then neither are masks, or anything else in life because everything is a matter of probabilities, not binary absolutes.

Long term or indefinite generalized wearing of masks is impractical once you take into account the lack of will of the population to do so.
Vaccines can bring this pandemic under control and to an acceptable level of public health risk provided enough people vaccinate.

The trick is to decide what that acceptable level of risk is, and opinions seem to differ widely depending on who you ask.
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StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Wow. Im guessing you watch a lot of MSNBC.

Im a Democrat myself. Ive never voted for a Republican literally ever.

And yes the Democrats have made this every bit as political as Republicans. Heres the evidence for that.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/how- ... behaviors/

41% of the Democrats somehow think that the odds of going to the hospital if you get Covid is over 50%. Where would they get that? Probably because the networks Democrats like to watch (CNN/MSNBC) constantly peddle fear and over exaggerate themselves.

Basically, here is the bottom line. Covid was viewed as something that could harm Trump and his bid to stay in power. Therefore, Fox News and the right wing news tried very hard to minimize it. However, the left wing outlets also saw a way to use this to rid us of Trump. So what we ended up with was denial on one end and over exaggerations on the other and none of that changed after Trump was kaput.

As for medical experts, they run the gamut. You cant say "medical experts think...." because there is a huge difference in what many of them do think. The liberal networks like to bring in Dr. Michael Olsterholm. They like him because he is an alarmist. He will always give the worst case scenario even though its wrong as many times as its right. Its not new with him either. Back in the 80's he kept jumping up and down saying AIDS would be as bad in Minnesota as it was in San Francisco (spoiler alert: it wasnt).

On the other end, you had Fox brining in Dr. Marc Siegel who basically kept telling his audience that none of this was any big deal.

I actually feel bad for Dr. Faucci. The man was one of the guys who stopped the HIV epidemic. His words are twisted and taken out of context by both the right and left wing networks on a regular basis.

Whether we like to admit it or not, when you tell people they cant live any differently once their vaccinated, that makes it moot to many of them. That is the fault of the CDC and their messaging. They should have, from the get go, said "here is what you can do if youre vaccinated and what you cant do if youre not". They didnt do that until it was largely too late to quell additional hesitancy.

Bottom line: the left consumes a lot of fear porn willingly. At first it was because the networks wanted to harm Trump but now that train is going too fast to be stopped. While you can argue that its better to be paranoid than ignorant, you cant argue that somehow the Democrats arent making this political. Sure Id personally rather have Joy Reid giving me advice than a giant SCUMBAG like Tucker Carlson, but I purposely dont listen to either now because they are both doing more harm than help (though Carlson is obviously a LOT worse).

Ill leave this article from Dr. Ashish Jha. Hes been a very level headed voice in this pandemic with a history of striking the right chords at the right time.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity

Disclaimer: I have had Covid myself and Ive been vaccinated. Im not an anti-masker either.


The CDC didn't know initially how much transmission was prevented by vaccine and now there is a pretty good idea that its significant, thus the change in guidelines.

Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people. As you said keeping the restrictions is one of the biggest deterrents for many regarding this vaccine. Even in Canada where mask mandates go further at least regards in being inside. People hardly wear them outside and I think the idea of wearing a mask outside as nonsensical anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W20UGJA3b5k


The issue is that once the cases start to plummet as they did in Israel and other places, the US will start lifting many restrictions. Those without the vaccine are going to be navigating an iffy world. They will be in danger if case levels remain high. The vaccinated are going to want a return to normal,. The more vaccinated people we have, the faster the virus itself becomes a null issue.


Many have and they will be the pioneers on how to move forward and so far I don't see the sky falling in Florida and Texas, at least not yet. The UK is easing their restrictions also.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 7:16 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
While true that vaccination does not necessarily stop contraction of the virus thus the potential of transmission if you aren't getting sick then your viral load is lower to the point where transmission is far less and that means less replication and subsequent generations of the virus slowing mutation. Mutations happen through the amount of reproductive generations and if that is reduced then mutations are slowed as they are random.


Mutation is just a replication error. Every single time virus replicates, it can mutate. There is no correlation between viral load size and mutation opportunities.

You are assuming vaccines cover wide range of mutations, but pharma PR and reality(Israel data) seems to differ.

If you want to be safe and end pandemic sooner than later, get vaccine and keep mask on.
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Revelation
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 7:24 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people.

How are people supposed to know everyone around them is vaccinated? Trust 'em, because no one lies? Or maybe just wear a mask, it isn't that much of an inconvenience...

Francoflier wrote:
The trick is to decide what that acceptable level of risk is, and opinions seem to differ widely depending on who you ask.

The problem is one person with a high risk tolerance has a decent chance of impacting the health of someone else, quite possibly someone they care about.

We used to have a social agreement that said we'd all do what we could do to help protect everyone's health around them.

Now, it's all about me, me, me.

It's not even that, we see people wearing masks getting called all kinds of names, even though they are doing what is best for themselves and others.

Most of the people jeering identify as Christian and law abiding. Funny, that.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 8:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people.

How are people supposed to know everyone around them is vaccinated? Trust 'em, because no one lies? Or maybe just wear a mask, it isn't that much of an inconvenience...

Francoflier wrote:
The trick is to decide what that acceptable level of risk is, and opinions seem to differ widely depending on who you ask.

The problem is one person with a high risk tolerance has a decent chance of impacting the health of someone else, quite possibly someone they care about.

We used to have a social agreement that said we'd all do what we could do to help protect everyone's health around them.

Now, it's all about me, me, me.

It's not even that, we see people wearing masks getting called all kinds of names, even though they are doing what is best for themselves and others.

Most of the people jeering identify as Christian and law abiding. Funny, that.


Funny that, lots of people NOT wearing masks in my NE area are getting jeered at by.... law-abiding progressives. It’s a two-way and BOTH sides aren’t playing by your ideals.

I’ve been in this country for 68 years, not yet seen the social agreement you think of and most of those years are in Blue States which are heavily populated by the “rich, liberal elites” who plainly don’t give a damn. There never was such social compact in the US, we’re a highly individualistic country, based on individual responsibility. Flu vaccines are only accepted by 50% of the population. You’re living in a dream world version of the US.

Neither of those people “identify” as anything. They are Christians, they are law-abiding. At one time, in the progressive Democratic world, dissent was a patriotic duty. Now, it’s about submission to authority. No room for questioning that authority.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 8:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
While true that vaccination does not necessarily stop contraction of the virus thus the potential of transmission if you aren't getting sick then your viral load is lower to the point where transmission is far less and that means less replication and subsequent generations of the virus slowing mutation. Mutations happen through the amount of reproductive generations and if that is reduced then mutations are slowed as they are random.


Mutation is just a replication error. Every single time virus replicates, it can mutate. There is no correlation between viral load size and mutation opportunities.

You are assuming vaccines cover wide range of mutations, but pharma PR and reality(Israel data) seems to differ.

If you want to be safe and end pandemic sooner than later, get vaccine and keep mask on.


Point to the study from Israel that shows vaccines dont work against variants.

Of course that's how viruses work but we have ample data to show that, as far as Moderna and Pfizer are concerned, they not only work against variants quite well AND they stop transmission to a high degree.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:03 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
...
Many have and they will be the pioneers on how to move forward and so far I don't see the sky falling in Florida and Texas, at least not yet. The UK is easing their restrictions also.


My personal situation. Entire sub-division >15 are vaccinated. One family has visitors from India, vaccination status unknown. They walk around sub-division, go to park and mingle with others. Family and visitors don't wear masks.

How do I mitigate. I wear mask. Not doing so it just playing Russian Roulette.

BTW, B1617 is already in MI, TX, MN, NJ? and CA.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:11 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Point to the study from Israel that shows vaccines dont work against variants.


Pharma may say highly effective in a lab setting, less effective in real-world. Always side with caution.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas ... 43da235888

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/doz ... -1.9758121

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-b ... es-effect/
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
...
Many have and they will be the pioneers on how to move forward and so far I don't see the sky falling in Florida and Texas, at least not yet. The UK is easing their restrictions also.


My personal situation. Entire sub-division >15 are vaccinated. One family has visitors from India, vaccination status unknown. They walk around sub-division, go to park and mingle with others. Family and visitors don't wear masks.

How do I mitigate. I wear mask. Not doing so it just playing Russian Roulette.

BTW, B1617 is already in MI, TX, MN, NJ? and CA.


The odds in Russian Roulette are 16.7% (1 in 6); are you saying COVID has killed 1 on 6 Americans? The PFR is 0.18% in the US, by the way. Only 5% are even hospitalized.

Or are you playing with a Glock.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue May 04, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
While true that vaccination does not necessarily stop contraction of the virus thus the potential of transmission if you aren't getting sick then your viral load is lower to the point where transmission is far less and that means less replication and subsequent generations of the virus slowing mutation. Mutations happen through the amount of reproductive generations and if that is reduced then mutations are slowed as they are random.


Mutation is just a replication error. Every single time virus replicates, it can mutate. There is no correlation between viral load size and mutation opportunities.

You are assuming vaccines cover wide range of mutations, but pharma PR and reality(Israel data) seems to differ.

If you want to be safe and end pandemic sooner than later, get vaccine and keep mask on.


The amount of mutation in biology depends the amount of reproductive generations there are. The higher amount of generations the more mutations happen and the higher the odds of one happening that if favorable to an organisms environment. We are seeing this with covid now as it adapts to the human body from zoonotic origins

Vaccines will curb viral replication in hosts which is by many factors as those who are vaccinated are not getting seriously sick or hospitalized as that virus isn't spreading into the lower respiratory tract or throughout the body . This means that the chances of mutations emerging that evade vaccinations are limited because replications are reduced and there are less generations of virions to mutate.

None of our previous vaccines prevent infection, there is still some degree of viral replication that occurs before the immune system attacks the pathogen. There hasn't been any mutations in other viruses that curb vaccine efficacy and some of those vaccines have been around for a long time and the infections aren't gone by any means.

Revelation wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people.

How are people supposed to know everyone around them is vaccinated? Trust 'em, because no one lies? Or maybe just wear a mask, it isn't that much of an inconvenience... .


That's fine but in the video DC followed what the CDC said and some people were outraged and they reversed the outdoor mask mandate. They did because liberals were outraged about it not because local public health official disagreed with the CDC.
I personally think an outdoor mask mandate makes no sense whatsoever. Indoors I get it but with wind and sunlight viral particles cannot get very far at all.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Point to the study from Israel that shows vaccines dont work against variants.


Pharma may say highly effective in a lab setting, less effective in real-world. Always side with caution.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas ... 43da235888

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/doz ... -1.9758121

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-b ... es-effect/


5 million Israelis are fully vaccinated, your post says 4 were shown to be positive for COVID, literally less 1 in a million.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Point to the study from Israel that shows vaccines dont work against variants.


Pharma may say highly effective in a lab setting, less effective in real-world. Always side with caution.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas ... 43da235888

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/doz ... -1.9758121

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-b ... es-effect/


Lets take it link by link. In this well see that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate media bias and politics from this pandemic as it fuels perception too much.

First off, its a lot of scary headlines to say things that arent scary.

Im not surprised by the Forbes article. Its from William Hastline who is very much an alarmist. Ive read a lot of his stuff in Forbes and hes wrong almost every single time since the summer. I actually went to the link of the study hes referencing and he should frankly be ashamed of himself for writing that. The study itself claims that the infection rate of the South African variant among fully vaccinated people is very small. What it did say is that, among vaccinated people who got re-infected, the South African variant had the highest numbers. But Dr. Hastline doesnt mention that. He doesnt say that less than a fraction of 1% of people in the real world have been vaccinated and infected with the South African variant because then people wont read his fear porn. Not only that, but NOT ONE of the people vaccinated people that got infected did so after two weeks of the second dose. Not only that, but the study only contained 8 people because, in all the people vaccinated, they were only able to find 8 that had been re-infected with the SA variant. Here is a more responsible article on what that study actually showed:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 021-04-18/

Another study of 800 people in South Africa showed that the vaccine was 91% effective against the SA variant. But instead of saying "The efficacy dropped from 95% to 91%" they say "Vaccines are not as effective against the variant". They know that people dont read further than the clicks they get on their website.

The article about the from Haaretz, is there to say that 4 people who got vaccinated got the Indian variant. No word on how sick they were or if they even had symptoms, just that they tested positive for it. That is statically meaningless. Also of note in this article is that it isnt the Indian variant thats causing chaos in India, its the UK one.

The Times of Israel article is just about travel bans from countries that have high infection rates. Thats hardly earth shattering.

Bottom line, read the studies directly and forget clickbait that passes for journalism. Studies show I dont have to wear a mask outside so Im not going to. I wear them when I go out to eat until I sit at the table or when I fly and Im not eating or wherever the place Im going has it as a requirement. Ive been vaccinated and Ive had Covid. The data is overwhelming that there is little risk anyone would have to me.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 9:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
...


BTW, B1617 is already in MI, TX, MN, NJ? and CA.


If they were going to cause massive spikes here, they would have done so already. Its been 6 weeks.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 10:20 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Lets take it link by link. In this well see that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate media bias and politics from this pandemic as it fuels perception too much.
.


I agree with all that.

I am not an alarmist but I don't bank on others' opinions (including experts) when it comes to my family health. I will do anything and everything possible to mitigate any remote risk. If it sounds like an alarmist, so be it.
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 10:42 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Lets take it link by link. In this well see that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate media bias and politics from this pandemic as it fuels perception too much.
.


I agree with all that.

I am not an alarmist but I don't bank on others' opinions (including experts) when it comes to my family health. I will do anything and everything possible to mitigate any remote risk. If it sounds like an alarmist, so be it.


Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Here is an example of liberals making it political. Keeping mask mandates when the CDC says fully vaccinated people don't have to wear masks under when around other vaccinated people.

How are people supposed to know everyone around them is vaccinated? Trust 'em, because no one lies? Or maybe just wear a mask, it isn't that much of an inconvenience...

Francoflier wrote:
The trick is to decide what that acceptable level of risk is, and opinions seem to differ widely depending on who you ask.

The problem is one person with a high risk tolerance has a decent chance of impacting the health of someone else, quite possibly someone they care about.

We used to have a social agreement that said we'd all do what we could do to help protect everyone's health around them.

Now, it's all about me, me, me.

It's not even that, we see people wearing masks getting called all kinds of names, even though they are doing what is best for themselves and others.

Most of the people jeering identify as Christian and law abiding. Funny, that.


Funny that, lots of people NOT wearing masks in my NE area are getting jeered at by.... law-abiding progressives. It’s a two-way and BOTH sides aren’t playing by your ideals.

I’ve been in this country for 68 years, not yet seen the social agreement you think of and most of those years are in Blue States which are heavily populated by the “rich, liberal elites” who plainly don’t give a damn. There never was such social compact in the US, we’re a highly individualistic country, based on individual responsibility. Flu vaccines are only accepted by 50% of the population. You’re living in a dream world version of the US.

Neither of those people “identify” as anything. They are Christians, they are law-abiding. At one time, in the progressive Democratic world, dissent was a patriotic duty. Now, it’s about submission to authority. No room for questioning that authority.


That may all be true in part but that doesn’t make the non-maskers or vaxxers any less narcissist. Believing one ‘knows better’ or can ‘assess’ the situation over official health official expertise is pure arrogance - uninformed arrogance, at that. That would be like a commissary officer trying to proclaim online that C-5 maintenance procedures are defective and everyone should listen, because me me me is right right right.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:53 pm

Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply. Shutting down a society, restricting liberty held by convention as part of the social compact are political, not technical questions. What you’re saying is we’re to be ruled by unelected, unaccountable health officials who happen to belong to the “in” political party, that dissent, inquiry will not be allowed.

https://youtu.be/5lXAA7ZOROc
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply.


No, that is simply not happening - that’s the response of a teenager. There can still be rules in the home while one charts their own future, chooses their own hobbies/friends, and manages their own time. Like adolescence, a public health crisis is a temporary situation. One that ends more quickly if people heed professional advice.

No tangible freedom is lost over being asked to wear masks in public places. The claim is so emotional its beyond ridiculous.

Public health and other scientific disciplines operate by consensus. The most agreed upon conclusions rule the roost. When they are wrong, or information changes, they are updated. Ya’ll act like there is no dissent - have you seen a scientific meeting? Constant debate from start to finish. Just more arrogance claiming things operate in a way they actually don’t.
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply. Shutting down a society, restricting liberty held by convention as part of the social compact are political, not technical questions. What you’re saying is we’re to be ruled by unelected, unaccountable health officials who happen to belong to the “in” political party, that dissent, inquiry will not be allowed.

https://youtu.be/5lXAA7ZOROc



You have never read the constitution have you?. It starts with "We the People". Not "I the individual" .

The rest as follows. from
https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... n/preamble

"of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.:

How is the the covid response outside of the constitutional boundaries?

I think the Cult of Trump has truly forgotten what America is, and have substituted blind allegiance to fascist ideas.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
phluser
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:31 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
And yes the Democrats have made this every bit as political as Republicans.


When I compare Democrats to Republicans and vice versa, it's via political leaders- the President (Biden vs. Trump), D Senators to R Senators, House members and Governors. Not CNN vs Fox News, even if Democrat voters happen to make up CNN's audience

For this, I'd say the Democrat leaders have erred on caution, including mask wearing and following CDC guidelines even if imperfect. Republicans have politicized mask wearing from the get go with a populist President.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:43 am

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply. Shutting down a society, restricting liberty held by convention as part of the social compact are political, not technical questions. What you’re saying is we’re to be ruled by unelected, unaccountable health officials who happen to belong to the “in” political party, that dissent, inquiry will not be allowed.

https://youtu.be/5lXAA7ZOROc



You have never read the constitution have you?. It starts with "We the People". Not "I the individual" .

The rest as follows. from
https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... n/preamble

"of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.:

How is the the covid response outside of the constitutional boundaries?

I think the Cult of Trump has truly forgotten what America is, and have substituted blind allegiance to fascist ideas.


“We, the People”, never got a vote as everyone deferred to Dr Fauci who originally told us not to wear masks and said COVID was little to worry about. The Preamble isn’t governing, look to Section 8 for powers given the Congress. In any case, it is states that possess “police power” over their citizens and were properly differed to. Texas, 60 days after removing the mask mandates, still has lower cases and deaths per 100k than NY or MA.

The fascist ideas are being promoted by Democrats who are ever enlarging the scope and grasp of centralized government. The “Cult of Trump” deregulated parts of the economy, reduced the tax burdens on individuals and businesses meaning devolving government NOT increasing by confiscating money from citizens.

You’re projecting.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Wed May 05, 2021 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:43 am

On this topic, two scientific minds could not have been more prophetic. Carl Sagan, writing in 1995 on the impact of celebrating ignorance:

We’ve arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

https://www.openculture.com/2017/01/car ... erica.html

And Isaac Asimov, writing about the arrogant assertion of ignorance in 1980: The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/10/isa ... tates.html

Standing for sovereignty and agency should not automatically coincide with doubting rules and me-me-me insistence that all the experts are wrong.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:49 am

Yes, you have the perfect distillation of totalitarianism—no one can think for themselves, no one has agency, government will rule you in every detail. That’s fascism or communism, pretty much the same think total control over citizens.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:51 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply. Shutting down a society, restricting liberty held by convention as part of the social compact are political, not technical questions. What you’re saying is we’re to be ruled by unelected, unaccountable health officials who happen to belong to the “in” political party, that dissent, inquiry will not be allowed.

https://youtu.be/5lXAA7ZOROc



You have never read the constitution have you?. It starts with "We the People". Not "I the individual" .

The rest as follows. from
https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... n/preamble

"of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.:

How is the the covid response outside of the constitutional boundaries?

I think the Cult of Trump has truly forgotten what America is, and have substituted blind allegiance to fascist ideas.


“We, the People”, never got a vote as everyone deferred to Dr Fauci who originally told us not to wear masks and said COVID was little to worry about. The Preamble isn’t governing, look to Section 8 for powers given the Congress. In any case, it is states that possess “police power” over their citizens and were properly differed to. Texas, 60 days after removing the mask mandates, still has lower cases and deaths per 100k than NY or MA.

The fascist ideas are being promoted by Democrats who are ever enlarging the scope and grasp of centralized government. The “Cult of Trump” deregulated parts of the economy, reduced the tax burdens on individuals and businesses meaning devolving government NOT increasing by confiscating money from citizens.

You’re projecting.


That’s a silly canard since Dr. Fauci works at NIH, one of the foremost public health instutions on the planet. NIH has been routinely funded and supported by Congress and both parties, decade after decade. Clearly if ‘we the people’ thought NIH was a useless agency by strong majority, it would have been disbanded by now.
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Your silly analogy does not apply. Shutting down a society, restricting liberty held by convention as part of the social compact are political, not technical questions. What you’re saying is we’re to be ruled by unelected, unaccountable health officials who happen to belong to the “in” political party, that dissent, inquiry will not be allowed.

https://youtu.be/5lXAA7ZOROc



You have never read the constitution have you?. It starts with "We the People". Not "I the individual" .

The rest as follows. from
https://constitutioncenter.org/interact ... n/preamble

"of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.:

How is the the covid response outside of the constitutional boundaries?

I think the Cult of Trump has truly forgotten what America is, and have substituted blind allegiance to fascist ideas.


“We, the People”, never got a vote as everyone deferred to Dr Fauci who originally told us not to wear masks and said COVID was little to worry about. The Preamble isn’t governing, look to Section 8 for powers given the Congress. In any case, it is states that possess “police power” over their citizens and were properly differed to. Texas, 60 days after removing the mask mandates, still has lower cases and deaths per 100k than NY or MA.

The fascist ideas are being promoted by Democrats who are ever enlarging the scope and grasp of centralized government. The “Cult of Trump” deregulated parts of the economy, reduced the tax burdens on individuals and businesses meaning devolving government NOT increasing by confiscating money from citizens.

You’re projecting.



How in the constitution was Fauci in charge ? Please show me that organizational chart? Please also explain to me the scientific theory ? When the evidence changes, the Theory will change.

The Preamble is everything the constitution stands for. Powers given to "Congress" in article 8 are powers for Congress. Not the executive branch.

The mask mandate was there to save lives, and it has. Just look at India for proof of that, Christmas in the US and the initial devastating wave in the US for that proof. Standing behind the disgraceful and dishonorable leadership in Texas are real citizens that do still wear masks because they aren't as dumb as their leaders.


Do not start about the democrats. The island of cult you stand on is currently promoting nothing but lies, and punishing those that step outside of it.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, you have the perfect distillation of totalitarianism—no one can think for themselves, no one has agency, government will rule you in every detail. That’s fascism or communism, pretty much the same think total control over citizens.


If you want lamb instead of chicken tomorrow, the gub’mint is going to stop you? If your grandkids opt for private instead of public university, the gub’mint is going to stop them? The gub’mint is going to prevent my nephew from becoming a musician because the party office decided he looks like a machine press operator? You can’t move to another town/city/state if you have the money and inclination to do so? Fear mongering, plain and simple. Emotionally balanced and rational adults don’t buy that crap.
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hbernal1
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:08 am

To veer away from the political/partisan side of the discussion, I came across an interesting article about paying unvaccinated people to get the COVID-19 vaccine: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/upsh ... iment.html

It's something that West Virginia is trying now with giving young people $100 bonds for getting the shot. If you ask me, I say it's worth the money if it can lead to a full reopening of the economy sooner.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:19 am

hbernal1 wrote:
To veer away from the political/partisan side of the discussion, I came across an interesting article about paying unvaccinated people to get the COVID-19 vaccine: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/upsh ... iment.html

It's something that West Virginia is trying now with giving young people $100 bonds for getting the shot. If you ask me, I say it's worth the money if it can lead to a full reopening of the economy sooner.


You can see how the economics of this would work out.

It also says quite a bit culturally that this is seen as a necessary Government proposal. The cult of individualism which shows no care for fellow man strikes me as insane in our close clustered modern communities.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Lets take it link by link. In this well see that it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate media bias and politics from this pandemic as it fuels perception too much.
.


I agree with all that.

I am not an alarmist but I don't bank on others' opinions (including experts) when it comes to my family health. I will do anything and everything possible to mitigate any remote risk. If it sounds like an alarmist, so be it.


Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.


My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:29 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I agree with all that.

I am not an alarmist but I don't bank on others' opinions (including experts) when it comes to my family health. I will do anything and everything possible to mitigate any remote risk. If it sounds like an alarmist, so be it.


Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.


My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.


If everyone were doing their part as you are, we could have reopened months ago. So idiotic.
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