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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:35 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And crap you’re speaking! Individualism that decry is the exact opposite of fascism. If you’ve decided personal liberty is all about what’s for dinner or what school kids are going to, you’re the one that’s lost the plot. By the way, how much school choice do you stand for? Vouchers?


I don't support my public tax money going back to private individuals for their private school choice. Would you support the US Government going out and using US Tax Dollars to fund private companies like Amazon to provide themselves a private militia?

The constitution is a document that binds the Individuals into a country, not split it up into a bunch of islands of Individualism. Self determination will always meet with the constitutional balances. You can't cry about losing individual freedoms when your choices cost everyone there freedoms to life. liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The mask mandates were made because we have individuals in this country that are so malignantly narcissistically self centered that they do not think of anything but themselves. We still have that same group of dishonorable folks so wound up in ignorance that they can't make rational choices. We lost more people to Covid than we lost to WW2, and there were tons of sacrifices for that war.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 2:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And crap you’re speaking! Individualism that decry is the exact opposite of fascism. If you’ve decided personal liberty is all about what’s for dinner or what school kids are going to, you’re the one that’s lost the plot. By the way, how much school choice do you stand for? Vouchers?


This is what I mean - emotionally balanced and mature adults are not ruled by their feelings on masks in this manner.

https://twitter.com/wutangkids/status/1 ... 05089?s=21
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 2:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.


My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.


If everyone were doing their part as you are, we could have reopened months ago. So idiotic.


The guy in that video is outside with no one next to him. There’s no reason for him to be wearing a mask.

The problem is that no one can really agree on what it means to “do your part”. I got vaccinated after having survived Covid. To me, that’s “my part”. I wear masks where they’re required with no protest, but don’t where they aren’t. The science shows I’m no longer a threat so I’ve done “my part”. What I absolutely refuse at this point is giving up human contact. I see as many of my friends as often as I can and I do it maskless. My friends are almost all vaccinated too.

I’ve tried to thread the needle between fear and denial from the get go and I still try to do that.
 
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par13del
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I agree with all that.

I am not an alarmist but I don't bank on others' opinions (including experts) when it comes to my family health. I will do anything and everything possible to mitigate any remote risk. If it sounds like an alarmist, so be it.


Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.


My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.

So has anyone complained to you about you wearing your mask or practicing social distancing?

I recall after the initial SAR's outbreak years ago, Asians were the only one's I saw walking around some USA airports wearing mask, folks just looked and left them alone.
Unfortunately, so much fear mongering has been raised about Covid-19 that many persons now see it as their civic duty to ensure that everyone does what they are doing.
Scary part here is if they ever decide to latch on to something else......
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:43 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.


If everyone were doing their part as you are, we could have reopened months ago. So idiotic.


The guy in that video is outside with no one next to him. There’s no reason for him to be wearing a mask.

The problem is that no one can really agree on what it means to “do your part”. I got vaccinated after having survived Covid. To me, that’s “my part”. I wear masks where they’re required with no protest, but don’t where they aren’t. The science shows I’m no longer a threat so I’ve done “my part”. What I absolutely refuse at this point is giving up human contact. I see as many of my friends as often as I can and I do it maskless. My friends are almost all vaccinated too.

I’ve tried to thread the needle between fear and denial from the get go and I still try to do that.


Negative, that was after he was denied entry to the store because he violated their policy. He then proceeded to warn off other customers from entering and they told him to leave, and that's when he really blew a gasket. Grown ass men behaving like six year-olds because they have a six year old's understanding of freedom.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

If everyone were doing their part as you are, we could have reopened months ago. So idiotic.


The guy in that video is outside with no one next to him. There’s no reason for him to be wearing a mask.

The problem is that no one can really agree on what it means to “do your part”. I got vaccinated after having survived Covid. To me, that’s “my part”. I wear masks where they’re required with no protest, but don’t where they aren’t. The science shows I’m no longer a threat so I’ve done “my part”. What I absolutely refuse at this point is giving up human contact. I see as many of my friends as often as I can and I do it maskless. My friends are almost all vaccinated too.

I’ve tried to thread the needle between fear and denial from the get go and I still try to do that.


Negative, that was after he was denied entry to the store because he violated their policy. He then proceeded to warn off other customers from entering and they told him to leave, and that's when he really blew a gasket. Grown ass men behaving like six year-olds because they have a six year old's understanding of freedom.


Well private businesses can demand the terms they wish to enter the store. So if he went into a private business and didnt abide by the rules they set forth, then he was right to be kicked out.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 4:14 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

The guy in that video is outside with no one next to him. There’s no reason for him to be wearing a mask.

The problem is that no one can really agree on what it means to “do your part”. I got vaccinated after having survived Covid. To me, that’s “my part”. I wear masks where they’re required with no protest, but don’t where they aren’t. The science shows I’m no longer a threat so I’ve done “my part”. What I absolutely refuse at this point is giving up human contact. I see as many of my friends as often as I can and I do it maskless. My friends are almost all vaccinated too.

I’ve tried to thread the needle between fear and denial from the get go and I still try to do that.


Negative, that was after he was denied entry to the store because he violated their policy. He then proceeded to warn off other customers from entering and they told him to leave, and that's when he really blew a gasket. Grown ass men behaving like six year-olds because they have a six year old's understanding of freedom.


Well private businesses can demand the terms they wish to enter the store. So if he went into a private business and didnt abide by the rules they set forth, then he was right to be kicked out.


Precisamente.
 
travelin man
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 5:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.


I don’t know about you, but not getting sick or dying from COVID seems like a pretty big freaking incentive to get the vaccine to me.
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 6:06 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to think the anti science crowd will stop us from returning to normal. They are taking the freedoms away of people who listen to science and experts.

It seems like the narrative has shifted. Before, the focus was on staying home and wearing your mask, but now the shamers are turning their attention to those who aren't getting vaccinated. Me, I got the vaccine back in January, and I never really had any doubts about its benefits. However, if someone else doesn't want to get it then that's their business and I'm not going to throw a hissyfit about it. What bothers me is that it seems like there's this notion to view everyone who doesn't want to get the vaccine as some fool or crazy anti-vaxxer. I studied biology in college and now I'm in medical school, so I'd like to think I have pretty firm understanding about disease, vaccines, and how all of it works. Then consider my friend who got a degree in marketing. He got sick right before the pandemic blew up and when he went to the ER he tested positive for influenza A, but in his mind he's convinced that he actually had COVID instead. He also thinks the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines change your body's DNA. He still got the vaccine by the way, and he's a liberal (if that matters). The point is that not everyone is able to completely understand all of this stuff, so when people hear about how these vaccines were made in record time and how they use new technology then its understandable why some might have honest concerns. And what about African Americans who don't want to get the vaccine because of Tuskegee? Is that reasoning going to be frowned upon also? Because obviously I don't think anyone believes something similarly nefarious is going on now with the COVID vaccines.

Concierge wrote:
The term Herd Immunity dates to the 1930s. It wasn't coined recently, and not by Dr. Fauci.

Do we absolutely NEED herd immunity though? My understanding is that herd immunity means that there is so much immunity in a population that there are very few people getting sick at all, like how it is with the measles (I know there has been a slight resurgence in recent years). This seems more in line with a zero-COVID strategy. Yes, it would be great if we can keep more people from dying, but as long as a decent chunk of the population gets vaccinated, especially the older folks, shouldn't we be able to go back to normal? At that point COVID should only have a mild effect on the health care system, similar to the flu.
Last edited by mke717spotter on Wed May 05, 2021 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 6:11 am

travelin man wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.


I don’t know about you, but not getting sick or dying from COVID seems like a pretty big freaking incentive to get the vaccine to me.


If almost everyone gets vaccinated, they get the benefit, too.

That's why, so far, anti-vaxxers have kept this attitude of "see, I was right it wasn't such a big deal" but above a certain threshold of hesitancy suddenly the vulnerable population will be exposed as seen in the several measles outbreaks over the last decade.

A few years back the 5 year old son of an anti-vax couple (of the hippy "we don't trust chemicals, we don't trust big pharma" type) died of diphtheria the parents were prominently featured in media as being "misled" by the anti-vax movement. A few antivax family doctors were publicly named and it was estimated that vaccine hesitancy went down by a few points immediately.

Allowing misinformation in the name of personal freedom is dangerous.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 6:45 am

mke717spotter wrote:
Concierge wrote:
The term Herd Immunity dates to the 1930s. It wasn't coined recently, and not by Dr. Fauci.

Do we absolutely NEED herd immunity though? .


That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

best regards
Thomas
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 10:27 am

travelin man wrote:
I don’t know about you, but not getting sick or dying from COVID seems like a pretty big freaking incentive to get the vaccine to me.


Same. I also think that coming together to fight a common cause/enemy is one of the most patriotic things one can do as an American.

And tbh, I think that's where a good majority of Americans are at. The media (traditional and social) are good at showing us the extremes because it drives traffic. We lap up videos of plate-breaking toddlers and mask scolds far more than boring-a$$ stories about overhauling HVAC systems. It's just how we're wired.
 
Sokes
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 11:52 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
There was an evangelical epidemiologist from Baylor interviewed on the radio yesterday--she's trying to make inroads into the evangelical community and encourage them to wear masks, get the vaccine, etc..

She now has to have additional security for her house and family due to the threats.

#blessed

Has she no faith?
https://youtu.be/0JPRvxTjfOk&t=42s
 
ltbewr
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 11:55 am

One subgroup of persons saying no to the Covid-19 vaccines seem to be the so-called religious including evangelical Christians and some Ultra-Orthodox Jewish. For them their reasoning included that 'God will protect me' as a 'good religious person', that 'it is God's will' if I get the disease or not, deep anti-science and anti-government beliefs part of their history.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 12:55 pm

par13del wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Life is not risk-free, you’re reacting rather than assessing risk.


My risk assessment calls for mask wearing. I am not demanding others to wear mask, I am wearing mask.

I am exercising my freedom to wear mask at my will.
I am trying to be responsible by not contracting/spreading and not becoming a burden on hospital system.

I don't see any problem with my approach.

So has anyone complained to you about you wearing your mask or practicing social distancing?

I recall after the initial SAR's outbreak years ago, Asians were the only one's I saw walking around some USA airports wearing mask, folks just looked and left them alone.
Unfortunately, so much fear mongering has been raised about Covid-19 that many persons now see it as their civic duty to ensure that everyone does what they are doing.
Scary part here is if they ever decide to latch on to something else......


Never had any problem. IMHO, most are doing their best to follow guidelines. CDC guidelines are so vague and based on politically convenient scientific studies, assumes only wild variant in existence. CDC still assumes only droplets, where as everyone including WHO accept this as airborne with aerosols floating around in the air beyond 6 ft for long term.

People are deciding on their own.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/opinions ... index.html
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 1:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
mke717spotter wrote:
Concierge wrote:
The term Herd Immunity dates to the 1930s. It wasn't coined recently, and not by Dr. Fauci.

Do we absolutely NEED herd immunity though? .


That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

best regards
Thomas


It would be exceptionally unlikely that a virus would mutate to the point where the existing vaccine dont protect at all. Reduced efficacy, yes. No protection whatsoever, no. But the more people who get the vaccine, the less reduced efficacy becomes an issue.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity
 
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Aesma
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 2:16 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One subgroup of persons saying no to the Covid-19 vaccines seem to be the so-called religious including evangelical Christians and some Ultra-Orthodox Jewish. For them their reasoning included that 'God will protect me' as a 'good religious person', that 'it is God's will' if I get the disease or not, deep anti-science and anti-government beliefs part of their history.


If they don't eat, will god nourish them ?

If they don't drink, will god hydrate them ?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 2:27 pm

This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 2:37 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That's as dumb as the science denial on the right - same thing really, feelings before the facts. But the difference is far lefties walking around in silly safety gowns isn't holding up the country from progressing toward the 70%-vaccinated threshold and reopening faster.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:00 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That's as dumb as the science denial on the right - same thing really, feelings before the facts. But the difference is far lefties walking around in silly safety gowns isn't holding up the country from progressing toward the 70%-vaccinated threshold and reopening faster.


It isnt keeping anyone from being vaccinated but it is holding up societal progression. For example, there is guidance about how to open up schools. However, these yahoos are fighting tooth and nail to keep their communities from doing so and in many cases being successful.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:22 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That's as dumb as the science denial on the right - same thing really, feelings before the facts. But the difference is far lefties walking around in silly safety gowns isn't holding up the country from progressing toward the 70%-vaccinated threshold and reopening faster.


It isnt keeping anyone from being vaccinated but it is holding up societal progression. For example, there is guidance about how to open up schools. However, these yahoos are fighting tooth and nail to keep their communities from doing so and in many cases being successful.


That has more to do with the power of teachers' unions and is for performative value to demonstrate the union's effectiveness.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That's as dumb as the science denial on the right - same thing really, feelings before the facts. But the difference is far lefties walking around in silly safety gowns isn't holding up the country from progressing toward the 70%-vaccinated threshold and reopening faster.


It isnt keeping anyone from being vaccinated but it is holding up societal progression. For example, there is guidance about how to open up schools. However, these yahoos are fighting tooth and nail to keep their communities from doing so and in many cases being successful.


That has more to do with the power of teachers' unions and is for performative value to demonstrate the union's effectiveness.


Did you read the article?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:47 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That is based on the assumption every CDC guidance is based on pure science, which is not.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 3:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That is based on the assumption every CDC guidance is based on pure science, which is not.


Its not pure science no. Its political just like every other group in the US.

But at least it has a science background. Ive been critical of some of their moves, but at least they have some studies to back it up.

In the end, there are just so many different views on what to do and every single one of us will just choose what we want to do in the first place and then go find a Dr. or opinion that fits what they already wanted.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 4:22 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
This is what Im talking about when even liberals make this political.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... wn/618780/

Its becoming an expression of political philosophy and a middle finger to Trump to behave this way.


That is based on the assumption every CDC guidance is based on pure science, which is not.


Its not pure science no. Its political just like every other group in the US.

But at least it has a science background. Ive been critical of some of their moves, but at least they have some studies to back it up.

In the end, there are just so many different views on what to do and every single one of us will just choose what we want to do in the first place and then go find a Dr. or opinion that fits what they already wanted.


It has only one unattainable goal of motivating anti-vaxxers to get a jab. In the process they are reducing the chance of ending pandemic soon.

Lets hope we will get to 70% by July 4 and may be 80 by Fall.

We have four groups, Pro-maskers, Pro-vaxxers, Anti-vaxxers and Anti-mask. Anti-maskers didn't help with early stages of pandemic, anti-vaxxers are not helping now, CDC is moving pro-vaxxer to anti-maskers group. Irrevocable damage IMHO.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 4:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Why bother with ATC enforcing airways, you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual pilot. Risk of collision be damned. Totalitarian future in the form of ATC is here.

Aaron747 wrote:
On this topic, two scientific minds could not have been more prophetic. Carl Sagan, writing in 1995 on the impact of celebrating ignorance:

We’ve arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

https://www.openculture.com/2017/01/car ... erica.html

And Isaac Asimov, writing about the arrogant assertion of ignorance in 1980: The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/10/isa ... tates.html

Standing for sovereignty and agency should not automatically coincide with doubting rules and me-me-me insistence that all the experts are wrong.

The pilot flying the plane is taking my individual autonomy, decision making, and sovereignty away. Who cares if he/she has years of training and experience, my ignorance is just as good as their knowledge! Time to storm the cockpit and assert my freedom!
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 5:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That is based on the assumption every CDC guidance is based on pure science, which is not.


Its not pure science no. Its political just like every other group in the US.

But at least it has a science background. Ive been critical of some of their moves, but at least they have some studies to back it up.

In the end, there are just so many different views on what to do and every single one of us will just choose what we want to do in the first place and then go find a Dr. or opinion that fits what they already wanted.


It has only one unattainable goal of motivating anti-vaxxers to get a jab. In the process they are reducing the chance of ending pandemic soon.

Lets hope we will get to 70% by July 4 and may be 80 by Fall.

We have four groups, Pro-maskers, Pro-vaxxers, Anti-vaxxers and Anti-mask. Anti-maskers didn't help with early stages of pandemic, anti-vaxxers are not helping now, CDC is moving pro-vaxxer to anti-maskers group. Irrevocable damage IMHO.


That’s making it too simple.

I’m not anti mask, but I’ll only wear it where it’s required now. I’ve been vaccinated and I believe in it. Wearing a mask outside is pretty much a political signal at this point. Only exception is if there are lots of people around.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 5:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Why bother with ATC enforcing airways, you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual pilot. Risk of collision be damned. Totalitarian future in the form of ATC is here.

Aaron747 wrote:
On this topic, two scientific minds could not have been more prophetic. Carl Sagan, writing in 1995 on the impact of celebrating ignorance:

We’ve arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

https://www.openculture.com/2017/01/car ... erica.html

And Isaac Asimov, writing about the arrogant assertion of ignorance in 1980: The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/10/isa ... tates.html

Standing for sovereignty and agency should not automatically coincide with doubting rules and me-me-me insistence that all the experts are wrong.

The pilot flying the plane is taking my individual autonomy, decision making, and sovereignty away. Who cares if he/she has years of training and experience, my ignorance is just as good as their knowledge! Time to storm the cockpit and assert my freedom!


That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane. I don’t understand those who refuse the jab, but I would be 100% against making it mandatory.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 5:32 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane.

No one forces you into a restaurant or a grocery store either, but around here you better be wearing a mask or you'll be refused service. You're still free to use a delivery service if this bothers you too much. Hopefully we're only a few weeks away from mandates ending, but till then, try to show some respect for others and wear a mask.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 6:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane.

No one forces you into a restaurant or a grocery store either, but around here you better be wearing a mask or you'll be refused service. You're still free to use a delivery service if this bothers you too much. Hopefully we're only a few weeks away from mandates ending, but till then, try to show some respect for others and wear a mask.


Actual side effect of this political era and Trumpism: I don’t have to show respect to others. I have agency to be an a-hole to my heart’s content. It’s about me and mine, nothing and nobody else. Only the weak apologize, show respect, and admit when wrong.
 
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seb146
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 6:18 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual. We’re a country based, if nothing else, on self-government, that the individual has the ability and agency to decide for him or herself. Totalitarian future is here.

Why bother with ATC enforcing airways, you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual pilot. Risk of collision be damned. Totalitarian future in the form of ATC is here.

Aaron747 wrote:
On this topic, two scientific minds could not have been more prophetic. Carl Sagan, writing in 1995 on the impact of celebrating ignorance:

We’ve arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

https://www.openculture.com/2017/01/car ... erica.html

And Isaac Asimov, writing about the arrogant assertion of ignorance in 1980: The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/10/isa ... tates.html

Standing for sovereignty and agency should not automatically coincide with doubting rules and me-me-me insistence that all the experts are wrong.

The pilot flying the plane is taking my individual autonomy, decision making, and sovereignty away. Who cares if he/she has years of training and experience, my ignorance is just as good as their knowledge! Time to storm the cockpit and assert my freedom!


That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane. I don’t understand those who refuse the jab, but I would be 100% against making it mandatory.


What I find interesting is that people refuse to get vaccinated (in general) but then demand public assistance when they or their family members get sick with something that could have been prevented from a vaccine. I know the whole "my body, my choice" thing only applies to this vaccine so maybe save up your own money to pay all medical expenses for when you get sick.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 8:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Why bother with ATC enforcing airways, you’re taking all autonomy, decision making, sovereignty away from the individual pilot. Risk of collision be damned. Totalitarian future in the form of ATC is here.


The pilot flying the plane is taking my individual autonomy, decision making, and sovereignty away. Who cares if he/she has years of training and experience, my ignorance is just as good as their knowledge! Time to storm the cockpit and assert my freedom!


That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane. I don’t understand those who refuse the jab, but I would be 100% against making it mandatory.


What I find interesting is that people refuse to get vaccinated (in general) but then demand public assistance when they or their family members get sick with something that could have been prevented from a vaccine. I know the whole "my body, my choice" thing only applies to this vaccine so maybe save up your own money to pay all medical expenses for when you get sick.


I totally agree with that. I dont understand the anti-vax point of view and I encourage everyone I know who hasnt gotten one to get one.

But I also could never be in favor of forced vaccinations on a governmental level. Even though I think people should get one, if a government can force you to get a vaccine, there is a lot more they can force you to do and who knows where that would end up.

Private businesses are different. If a business wants you to have a vaccine to work or patronize with/for them, more power to them.

But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 8:26 pm

Getting back on thread...
Next week my older child will be signed up for a vaccine. Eventually my younger child. Once everyone in my family is vaccinated, the Unvaccinated can go take responsibility for themselves.

Birds of a feather flock together. Everyone at work from one community refuses to vaccinate. Since we continue to have a slow burn just under 50,000 cases/day, the virus will find its way into that community and will propogate like wildfire.

We are not done. This is a winter virus. It amazes me people want to be unvaccinated. I do analytical modeling for work and fun. When I model this virus, it can transmit coast to coast until vaccination creeps above 65%.

I'm not going to worry about the unvaccinated. Ironically, at work it is not the group the media lambasts at all...
:scratchchin:

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 8:30 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

That’s not a good analogy. No one forces you to get on an airplane. I don’t understand those who refuse the jab, but I would be 100% against making it mandatory.


What I find interesting is that people refuse to get vaccinated (in general) but then demand public assistance when they or their family members get sick with something that could have been prevented from a vaccine. I know the whole "my body, my choice" thing only applies to this vaccine so maybe save up your own money to pay all medical expenses for when you get sick.


I totally agree with that. I dont understand the anti-vax point of view and I encourage everyone I know who hasnt gotten one to get one.

But I also could never be in favor of forced vaccinations on a governmental level. Even though I think people should get one, if a government can force you to get a vaccine, there is a lot more they can force you to do and who knows where that would end up.

Private businesses are different. If a business wants you to have a vaccine to work or patronize with/for them, more power to them.

But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.

I miss when moderates dominated.
.I 100% agree on no forced vaccines. Schools can require, but not "emergency" vaccines.

At this point, any adult without an appointment is avoiding the vaccine. Appointment are super easy and most sites take walk ins in California.

Lightsaber
 
Alias1024
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 10:27 pm

lightsaber wrote:

At this point, any adult without an appointment is avoiding the vaccine. Appointment are super easy and most sites take walk ins in California.


At least where I live there’s a delay in Pfizer second round. I’ll get mine 31 days after the first instead of 21. Seems to have been caused by the state prioritizing first injections for 16-18 year olds, who are only authorized for Pfizer, and some appointments getting reallocated to healthy, young adults while J&J was suspended. I can’t fault the logic on the state’s part as getting first doses administered will reduce spread more than second doses.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Wed May 05, 2021 10:34 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html

Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn


LAXdude1023 wrote:
Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.

It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 3:26 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html

Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn


LAXdude1023 wrote:
Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.

It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.


It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.
 
alfa164
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 3:39 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html
Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.

It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.

It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.


"His parents have pre-existing health conditions and his sister has a newborn, and he wants to keep them safe. Also, federal health officials have said vaccinated people can still get and spread coronavirus as long as there's community transmission."

Any thinking person could see that he has every reason to wear a mask - and take any precautions he can.

Non-thinking people... they may disagree...

:roll:



https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 3:45 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
But there is a flip side to this coin: clinging to practices that we now know are useless for the sake of making your politics known. Thats whats happening in the Atlantic article in one of my previous posts. That itself is also keeping society from moving forward.

That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html

Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn


LAXdude1023 wrote:
Long story short: the far-right and far-left really are ruining everything.

It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.


It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.


There's different levels of irrational fear.
Wanting to wear a mask even if one's risk is low is overabundance of caution. Given that wearing a mask is only a slight discomfort, that is a small price to pay for peace of mind for those who need it. This kind of 'excessive' (though it may not be in some cases) safety measure should not be called out, mocked or discouraged. There is nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution.

Those who refuse to wear masks where needed, on the other hand, or refuse to get vaccinated for no good reason, very much should get singled out, if only to remind them that we live in a society where we all bear a little bit of responsibility to everyone around us.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 3:45 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
mke717spotter wrote:
Do we absolutely NEED herd immunity though? .


That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

best regards
Thomas


It would be exceptionally unlikely that a virus would mutate to the point where the existing vaccine dont protect at all. Reduced efficacy, yes. No protection whatsoever, no. But the more people who get the vaccine, the less reduced efficacy becomes an issue.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity


If the virus mutates to the point where the vaccine has no effect then its a new virus.
Even the 40% effective flu shot has some protection in those people who get it that helps reduce severity.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 4:03 am

StarAC17 wrote:
If the virus mutates to the point where the vaccine has no effect then its a new virus.
Even the 40% effective flu shot has some protection in those people who get it that helps reduce severity.


Well, technically, not a new virus, just a new strain...
But a valid point. lack of vaccination or caution may well allow it to get around our defenses and undermine every effort we've made so far.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 5:39 am

tommy1808 wrote:
That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

The benchmark of getting enough people vaccinated just seems awfully arbitrary to me and it'd be pretty easy for them to move the goalposts again. Obviously not everyone is going to get vaccinated so Fauci and the rest of them might never be satisfied with the level of immunity. And what happens when a booster shot comes out in the fall? Now we've got to wait until enough people have had the booster before the mask and social distancing rules can go?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I’ve been vaccinated and I believe in it. Wearing a mask outside is pretty much a political signal at this point. Only exception is if there are lots of people around.

Even the folks over at CNN think the jig is up.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/jake-tapper ... k-wearing/

CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen said on Friday that President Joe Biden seems “overly cautious” about masks and advised, “I think over-caution also has a price and that masks somehow become a performative act rather than a life-saving act when it’s really needed, and also, it’s really underselling the power of the vaccine.”

On State of the Union, Tapper reviewed the newest CDC mask guidelines and said Biden “doesn’t seem to be following” them.

“Should the president start following these guidelines,” he asked, “and stop wearing a mask outdoors, stop wearing a mask indoors when with small groups of other vaccinated Americans, to show the American people there is a benefit to getting the vaccine, you can take the mask off?”


dtw2hyd wrote:
Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things

What about that "impending doom" she warned us about a month ago? When is that supposed to hit?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 6:13 am

mke717spotter wrote:
The benchmark of getting enough people vaccinated just seems awfully arbitrary to me and it'd be pretty easy for them to move the goalposts again. Obviously not everyone is going to get vaccinated so Fauci and the rest of them might never be satisfied with the level of immunity.


It may seem arbitrary to you, but the epidemiologists I follow regularly state that their field is constantly evaluating, adjusting forecasting, and responding to emergent data trends. Perhaps in med school you may have only done surface coursework in that particular field, but it also seems presumptuous to dismissively term what they’re doing as ‘moving goalposts’.

I say we give experts in public heath and epidemiology the latitude to do their thing and trust that they know what they’re talking about.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 7:21 am

mke717spotter wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

The benchmark of getting enough people vaccinated just seems awfully arbitrary to me and it'd be pretty easy for them to move the goalposts again.


More infectious variants require more people to get vaccinated. I see no point in leaving that at "voluntary" and are pretty happy to live in a country where mandatory vaccinations are legal.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Aesma
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 8:25 am

StarAC17 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

best regards
Thomas


It would be exceptionally unlikely that a virus would mutate to the point where the existing vaccine dont protect at all. Reduced efficacy, yes. No protection whatsoever, no. But the more people who get the vaccine, the less reduced efficacy becomes an issue.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity


If the virus mutates to the point where the vaccine has no effect then its a new virus.
Even the 40% effective flu shot has some protection in those people who get it that helps reduce severity.


Vaccines target specific parts of a virus so if these parts only change, is it still a new virus ? The flu shot actually targets several strains of the flu virus, and usually from one year to the next there is overlap in the strains, that's why it has always some efficacy.

Future COVID19 vaccines will probably have a similar approach, targeting various strains.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 1:26 pm

alfa164 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html
Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn

It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.

It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.


"His parents have pre-existing health conditions and his sister has a newborn, and he wants to keep them safe. Also, federal health officials have said vaccinated people can still get and spread coronavirus as long as there's community transmission."

Any thinking person could see that he has every reason to wear a mask - and take any precautions he can.

Non-thinking people... they may disagree...

:roll:



https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html


We KNOW that there is little risk to being outdoors and catching the virus. The only exception (as Ive said repeatedly here) is being in large crowds. So yes, wearing a mask outdoors when youre not in a crowd is not based on science, but emotion. If you want to do it, fine. You just cant claim its for a factual reason.

"When you're outside, fresh air is constantly moving, dispersing these droplets. So you're less likely to breathe in enough of the respiratory droplets containing the virus that causes COVID-19 to become infected. And if you’re fully vaccinated, you can be outside without wearing a mask unless you’re somewhere that has a high risk of COVID-19 transmission, such as at a crowded event."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... t-20489385
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 1:31 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

That depends on how much breeding ground you want the Virus to have to stumble on a mutation that the vaccines don´t protect against and start all over, lock down and all.
Measles don´t mutate, at least not without becoming ineffective, the Corona virus does, and there are strains that make vaccines less efficient.

best regards
Thomas


It would be exceptionally unlikely that a virus would mutate to the point where the existing vaccine dont protect at all. Reduced efficacy, yes. No protection whatsoever, no. But the more people who get the vaccine, the less reduced efficacy becomes an issue.

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus ... d-immunity


If the virus mutates to the point where the vaccine has no effect then its a new virus.
Even the 40% effective flu shot has some protection in those people who get it that helps reduce severity.


Two things:

1) that is extremely unlikely to happen within a period of only a few years. Its literally never happened to a coronavirus in the history of immunology. There is a lot of talk of mutations and variants, but the virus isnt really mutating that fast. That doesnt mean it cant mutate to become more infectious or that it cant evade protections in some people, but on a mass scale its virtually impossible.
2) Comparisons to influenza are not good ones. Coronaviruses mutate slowly. Influenza mutates very fast. Therefore trying to inoculate against the flu and Covid are not comparable.

"Furthermore, the SARS-CoV-2 low mutation rate suggests that a vaccine, as well as the immunity developed in recovered patients, could provide long-lasting protection compared to vaccines against influenza, which are rendered obsolete as the virus mutates."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33064680/
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 1:33 pm

Francoflier wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
That is called Plan B, CDC lacks one, so people came up on their own.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/health/v ... index.html

Here Dr. Walensky's failed attempt to clear things
https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/ ... ay-vpx.cnn



It doesn't matter where one is on the spectrum, as long as not causing harm to public health.


It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.


There's different levels of irrational fear.
Wanting to wear a mask even if one's risk is low is overabundance of caution. Given that wearing a mask is only a slight discomfort, that is a small price to pay for peace of mind for those who need it. This kind of 'excessive' (though it may not be in some cases) safety measure should not be called out, mocked or discouraged. There is nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution.

Those who refuse to wear masks where needed, on the other hand, or refuse to get vaccinated for no good reason, very much should get singled out, if only to remind them that we live in a society where we all bear a little bit of responsibility to everyone around us.


I dont disagree with any of that. If you want to wear a mask when or where it isnt needed, go for it. Im just pushing back on the idea that its somehow based on fact or science. Its based on emotion.

And yes of course the group that refuses to get vaccinated is a much bigger problem.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 1:48 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

It’s people giving into fear irrationally. The guy In the first article is wrong, but he needs a security blanket.


There's different levels of irrational fear.
Wanting to wear a mask even if one's risk is low is overabundance of caution. Given that wearing a mask is only a slight discomfort, that is a small price to pay for peace of mind for those who need it. This kind of 'excessive' (though it may not be in some cases) safety measure should not be called out, mocked or discouraged. There is nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution.

Those who refuse to wear masks where needed, on the other hand, or refuse to get vaccinated for no good reason, very much should get singled out, if only to remind them that we live in a society where we all bear a little bit of responsibility to everyone around us.


I dont disagree with any of that. If you want to wear a mask when or where it isnt needed, go for it. Im just pushing back on the idea that its somehow based on fact or science. Its based on emotion.

And yes of course the group that refuses to get vaccinated is a much bigger problem.


Yeah, that was basically cleared up like 10-15 posts ago.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Thu May 06, 2021 2:02 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
We KNOW that there is little risk to being outdoors and catching the virus. The only exception (as Ive said repeatedly here) is being in large crowds. So yes, wearing a mask outdoors when youre not in a crowd is not based on science, but emotion. If you want to do it, fine. You just cant claim its for a factual reason.

"When you're outside, fresh air is constantly moving, dispersing these droplets. So you're less likely to breathe in enough of the respiratory droplets containing the virus that causes COVID-19 to become infected. And if you’re fully vaccinated, you can be outside without wearing a mask unless you’re somewhere that has a high risk of COVID-19 transmission, such as at a crowded event."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... t-20489385


That if you go by CDC's just droplet theory, ignoring aerosols. Public health is not a legal proceeding to selectively admit evidence.

There was a case in Canada two families of 6 spent two hours in the backyard, All 6 +ve one ICU.
Entire Indian second wave carnage started from outdoor events.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
And yes of course the group that refuses to get vaccinated is a much bigger problem.

What are you going to do? Complain on social media but gamble your own health. If a driver in opposite traffic jumps the median, your immediate reaction is to avoid, not to hold steering firm, even if it is not your fault.

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