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Revelation
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Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 4:25 pm

Early in the pandemic, when vaccines for the coronavirus were still just a glimmer on the horizon, the term "herd immunity" came to signify the endgame: the point when enough Americans would be protected from the virus so we could be rid of the pathogen and reclaim our lives. Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable -- at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever. Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.

Ref: https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/0 ... ow-believe

So, it seems we'll get to the point where those that care to take the vaccine will have to keep up on boosters that can take out some but not all of the mutations, and the rest will deal with getting infected and hopefully not dying or having their health impacted too much.

I guess this represents a recalibration of our outlook on the disease, but as one willing to take and fortunate enough to get the vaccine, so be it.
 
johns624
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 4:35 pm

I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 4:38 pm

It’s both ironic and mind-numbingly stupid. Everyone who has been griping about their lives being upended who won’t get the vaccine are now prolonging matters while sitting back and watching everyone else make the effort to recover. :sarcastic:
 
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Revelation
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 4:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.

True.

Seems we're just going to deal with a background level of this stuff taking people out from time to time, while with a bit of minimal effort to take something that is free at least in the US we could be done with it.

Sucks for me, I have a few anti-vaxxers in my family, and they have young kids they will never let get vaccinated. Yeah, freedom. Hope they're OK with their choice if they or their kids end up with a tube shoved down their throats struggling to stay alive, or if they end up spreading it to someone else who gets taken out by the virus.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 5:26 pm

These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 5:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.

There was an evangelical epidemiologist from Baylor interviewed on the radio yesterday--she's trying to make inroads into the evangelical community and encourage them to wear masks, get the vaccine, etc..

She now has to have additional security for her house and family due to the threats.

#blessed
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 5:45 pm

Very sad to think the anti science crowd will stop us from returning to normal. They are taking the freedoms away of people who listen to science and experts.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 5:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.

True.

Seems we're just going to deal with a background level of this stuff taking people out from time to time, while with a bit of minimal effort to take something that is free at least in the US we could be done with it.

Sucks for me, I have a few anti-vaxxers in my family, and they have young kids they will never let get vaccinated. Yeah, freedom. Hope they're OK with their choice if they or their kids end up with a tube shoved down their throats struggling to stay alive, or if they end up spreading it to someone else who gets taken out by the virus.


I’ve always believed that if parents won’t immunise there children this children should be excluded from school.

The NZ Customs service last week declined to renew contracts for 9 front line workers who refused to take the vaccine. I think it is perfectly acceptable for an employer to do this.
 
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mad99
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 6:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Revelation wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.

True.

Seems we're just going to deal with a background level of this stuff taking people out from time to time, while with a bit of minimal effort to take something that is free at least in the US we could be done with it.

Sucks for me, I have a few anti-vaxxers in my family, and they have young kids they will never let get vaccinated. Yeah, freedom. Hope they're OK with their choice if they or their kids end up with a tube shoved down their throats struggling to stay alive, or if they end up spreading it to someone else who gets taken out by the virus.


I’ve always believed that if parents won’t immunise there children this children should be excluded from school.

The NZ Customs service last week declined to renew contracts for 9 front line workers who refused to take the vaccine. I think it is perfectly acceptable for an employer to do this.


That’s the case here in Spain, get vaccinated and prove it or your excluded. From school that is
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 6:14 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.

There was an evangelical epidemiologist from Baylor interviewed on the radio yesterday--she's trying to make inroads into the evangelical community and encourage them to wear masks, get the vaccine, etc..

She now has to have additional security for her house and family due to the threats.

#blessed


Religion ruins everything.

I dont think herd immunity in the form of vaccinating 70% of the worlds population was ever really an option. Were just going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean the destruction of the social aspects of our lives or aviation. Eventually, this will end up being more benign but it will take time. Mutations are nothing to fear since viruses, overwhelmingly, mutate to become less harmful to hosts. HIV is the only one I can think of where they didnt really happen.

Even now were reporting the lowest in new cases since last summer in the US. The human body is remarkable. Its better to get the vaccine but post infection immunity is also a very real thing. Its not 100% of course, but it and the vaccine in combo is definitely providing a backstop.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 6:58 pm

Problem is this was politicized way too much. There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it. I got vaccinated but I won't get any more shots or boosters. They are not needed. Wear a mask indoors. Wash and sanitize and try to social distance as best you can. We will build immunity and the virus will continue to decline. After the fall if high risk people want to get more shots then so be it.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

I dont think herd immunity in the form of vaccinating 70% of the worlds population was ever really an option. Were just going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean the destruction of the social aspects of our lives or aviation. Eventually, this will end up being more benign but it will take time. Mutations are nothing to fear since viruses, overwhelmingly, mutate to become less harmful to hosts. HIV is the only one I can think of where they didnt really happen.

Even now were reporting the lowest in new cases since last summer in the US. The human body is remarkable. Its better to get the vaccine but post infection immunity is also a very real thing. Its not 100% of course, but it and the vaccine in combo is definitely providing a backstop.


:checkmark:
 
VSMUT
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:11 pm

johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.


Aren't they generally also the same people who used to ridicule "millennials" for having psychological issues, yet now insist that quarantine and lockdown gives them psychological trauma?
 
Concierge
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:21 pm

The term Herd Immunity dates to the 1930s. It wasn't coined recently, and not by Dr. Fauci.
 
luckyone
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:21 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Problem is this was politicized way too much. There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it. I got vaccinated but I won't get any more shots or boosters. They are not needed. Wear a mask indoors. Wash and sanitize and try to social distance as best you can. We will build immunity and the virus will continue to decline. After the fall if high risk people want to get more shots then so be it.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

I dont think herd immunity in the form of vaccinating 70% of the worlds population was ever really an option. Were just going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean the destruction of the social aspects of our lives or aviation. Eventually, this will end up being more benign but it will take time. Mutations are nothing to fear since viruses, overwhelmingly, mutate to become less harmful to hosts. HIV is the only one I can think of where they didnt really happen.

Even now were reporting the lowest in new cases since last summer in the US. The human body is remarkable. Its better to get the vaccine but post infection immunity is also a very real thing. Its not 100% of course, but it and the vaccine in combo is definitely providing a backstop.


:checkmark:

1. Herd immunity is a legitimate event. Fauci did not invent the term.
2. Not getting a booster minimizes your immunity to variants. Which is why we get a flu shot every season and not just once. Boosting immunity is also why the HepB vaccine is a series of shots, and why you get a Tdap every ten years or so.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it.


I was certain I'd herd :) of the phrase before. Wikipedia suggests it was first coined almost 100 years ago.
 
Concierge
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:26 pm

The term Herd Immunity goes back many decades. It's not a new term, not fake, and not coined by Dr. Fauci.

Me: 36 years in Occupational Safety and Health.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.


Not everyone who declines the vaccines is an anti-vaxer. I am the farthest thing from an anti-vaxer and even I almost backed out while waiting in line to get my vaccine. I have and still have questions about this vaccine that no one has answers for. This vaccine is NOT FDA approved it has been released on an EUA emergency use authorization. It is new technology relatively speaking and we do not know how long the immunity lasts or the long term effects if any of mRNA . Not to mention what NIK just said this has been politicized by both sides. In the end I personally chose to get it because I know enough people who contracted COVID and some did not fair well. However, most did but I have too many co-morbidities to take the chance. It is about weighing your risk. I do not fault anyone who chooses not to get it.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:53 pm

Title is not clear but 70% in the US is easily achievable. If I recall 51% adults at least had one dose.

General eligibility started on May 1, and on May 3 saying we will not reach herd immunity is being pessimistic.

My county of 1.28MM administered 1MM doses plus 200K thru City of Detroit and FEMA mass vaccination campaigns. That is decent IMO.

It is premature to hit the panic button too soon. Also Fauci scaring people is not going reduce hesitancy, there should be local push through primacy care physicians. People trust their own doctor.

Also mRNA vaccines should combine third booster with second, which is relatively easy compared to other types of vaccines. Imagine doing this all over in six months.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Mon May 03, 2021 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:54 pm

I don't see much reason to worry about any of this (in the USA).

People who want vaccine can get vaccinated in the USA now.

If people choose not to vaccinate, they may die, but that is their choice.

Yes, understand that immune-compromised people will face risk if they cannot be vaccinated. That's sad. Sometimes, human life has sad situations, and that is definitely an example. Universal mandatory vaccination is one answer for that, but I am not sure I support that. It is not a good precedent. I think we are in a good situation in the US now, and we should do our best to help vaccinate fellow people all over the world.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 7:58 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I don't see much reason to worry about any of this (in the USA).

People who want vaccine can get vaccinated in the USA now.

If people choose not to vaccinate, they may die, but that is their choice.

Yes, understand that immune-compromised people will face risk if they cannot be vaccinated. That's sad. Sometimes, human life has sad situations, and that is definitely an example. Universal mandatory vaccination is one answer for that, but I am not sure I support that. It is not a good precedent. I think we are in a good situation in the US now, and we should do our best to help vaccinate fellow people all over the world.

I agree, but being the last person to die from COVID feels really sad, kinda like the guy who gets killed on the last day of a war.
 
luckyone
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:01 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I don't see much reason to worry about any of this (in the USA).

People who want vaccine can get vaccinated in the USA now.

If people choose not to vaccinate, they may die, but that is their choice.

Yes, understand that immune-compromised people will face risk if they cannot be vaccinated. That's sad. Sometimes, human life has sad situations, and that is definitely an example. Universal mandatory vaccination is one answer for that, but I am not sure I support that. It is not a good precedent. I think we are in a good situation in the US now, and we should do our best to help vaccinate fellow people all over the world.

I, personally, have a problem with this some of this line of thought, particularly when it comes from conservatives. "Some people are going to die," and though certainly not universal but there were a few folks saying "old folks should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good." Ten or so years ago, during the big Obamacare debate, the cacophony coming from conservatives was "THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO FORM A DEATH SQUAD AND DECIDE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE!"
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:12 pm

luckyone wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I don't see much reason to worry about any of this (in the USA).

People who want vaccine can get vaccinated in the USA now.

If people choose not to vaccinate, they may die, but that is their choice.

Yes, understand that immune-compromised people will face risk if they cannot be vaccinated. That's sad. Sometimes, human life has sad situations, and that is definitely an example. Universal mandatory vaccination is one answer for that, but I am not sure I support that. It is not a good precedent. I think we are in a good situation in the US now, and we should do our best to help vaccinate fellow people all over the world.

I, personally, have a problem with this some of this line of thought, particularly when it comes from conservatives. "Some people are going to die," and though certainly not universal but there were a few folks saying "old folks should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good." Ten or so years ago, during the big Obamacare debate, the cacophony coming from conservatives was "THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO FORM A DEATH SQUAD AND DECIDE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE!"


??? It is everyone's choice now. The availability of vaccine totally changes the moral calculus. The vaccine works. There is no longer a reason to shut things down in the US.

Places like NY are opening pretty much immediately. It's over.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it. I got vaccinated but I won't get any more shots or boosters.


Fauci didn't invent herd immunity. The term is decades old. I learned about it in middle school. As for your refusal to get more shots or boosters, I believe that's your choice. I also don't believe that these choices should come completely free from consequences. Your choice might severely curtail your opportunities for future travel, especially outside the USA.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:31 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
luckyone wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I don't see much reason to worry about any of this (in the USA).

People who want vaccine can get vaccinated in the USA now.

If people choose not to vaccinate, they may die, but that is their choice.

Yes, understand that immune-compromised people will face risk if they cannot be vaccinated. That's sad. Sometimes, human life has sad situations, and that is definitely an example. Universal mandatory vaccination is one answer for that, but I am not sure I support that. It is not a good precedent. I think we are in a good situation in the US now, and we should do our best to help vaccinate fellow people all over the world.

I, personally, have a problem with this some of this line of thought, particularly when it comes from conservatives. "Some people are going to die," and though certainly not universal but there were a few folks saying "old folks should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good." Ten or so years ago, during the big Obamacare debate, the cacophony coming from conservatives was "THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO FORM A DEATH SQUAD AND DECIDE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE!"


??? It is everyone's choice now. The availability of vaccine totally changes the moral calculus. The vaccine works. There is no longer a reason to shut things down in the US.

Places like NY are opening pretty much immediately. It's over.


This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:35 pm

The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.
 
Newark727
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.


Some states and companies are trying to incentivize it at least a little. IIRC West Virginia was straight up cutting you a check? Meanwhile here in Southern California you can get discounted Dodger tickets or a free Krispy Kreme donut. I sort of doubt any of that will make it worth it to someone who doesn't want the vaccine already, though.
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 8:56 pm

stratosphere wrote:
This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.

Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.

I guess you and stratosphere really don't understand what vaccines are or what they do or how disease spreads.

Vaccines protect YOU from getting a virus.

The incentive is to not end up with a tube shoved down your throat in an IR bed with people sending you 'thoughts and prayers' on Twitter.

Masks protect OTHERS from you spreading the virus, which you can still pick up and carry around with you even though you are vaccinated.

Pretend you are an adult, show a little patience, wear your mask and get vaccinated, and soon enough things will return to normal.

Stop being a child and making it about ME ME ME ME! and What do I get? I want it NOW NOW NOW!

Looks like the greatest generation is gone, and it's been replaced by the 'me' generation.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 9:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.

Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.

I guess you and stratosphere really don't understand what vaccines are or what they do or how disease spreads.

Vaccines protect YOU from getting a virus.

The incentive is to not end up with a tube shoved down your throat in an IR bed with people sending you 'thoughts and prayers' on Twitter.

Masks protect OTHERS from you spreading the virus, which you can still pick up and carry around with you even though you are vaccinated.

Pretend you are an adult, show a little patience, wear your mask and get vaccinated, and soon enough things will return to normal.

Stop being a child and making it about ME ME ME ME! and What do I get? I want it NOW NOW NOW!

Looks like the greatest generation is gone, and it's been replaced by the 'me' generation.


Considering the variety of pronouncements on masks and their effectiveness by one Doctor Fauci alone, it’s hard to believe their value especially when there’s a wide variety of masks cleanliness, wearing protocols and the like.

Second, there’s a lot of evidence that the vaccines reduce viral load and transmissions from vaccinated persons. You’re just continuing the fear porn. 66 million fully vaccinated people, 5800 breakout infections all minor. Accept that vaccinated are not a threat and protected OR just wear a mask forever because this ain’t away. It’s about odds, not absolutes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z

I’m probably older than you, it’s not “me, me, me”, it’s about being reasonable. I’m adult, lots of community and years of military service, stop typecasting based on nothing.

Last I read, public health experts don’t run the country, elected officials do.

You might watch this about corrupted science and technocracy.

https://youtu.be/2oro0ttU2_A
 
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 10:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Considering the variety of pronouncements on masks and their effectiveness by one Doctor Fauci alone, it’s hard to believe their value especially when there’s a wide variety of masks cleanliness, wearing protocols and the like.

Second, there’s a lot of evidence that the vaccines reduce viral load and transmissions from vaccinated persons. You’re just continuing the fear porn. 66 million fully vaccinated people, 5800 breakout infections all minor. Accept that vaccinated are not a threat and protected OR just wear a mask forever because this ain’t away. It’s about odds, not absolutes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z

I’m probably older than you, it’s not “me, me, me”, it’s about being reasonable. I’m adult, lots of community and years of military service, stop typecasting based on nothing.

What's unreasonable about asking someone to wear a mask? I get it, it's annoying, but certainly not unreasonable.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Last I read, public health experts don’t run the country, elected officials do.

That's not very reassuring. Do you want elected officials deciding they know better than aviation experts and deciding ATC is no longer necessary?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You might watch this about corrupted science and technocracy.

https://youtu.be/2oro0ttU2_A

Who's fear mongering now?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 10:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
This is where they lost people too. The Democrats it's obvious want to drag out this crisis they are getting things they never would have gotten otherwise. A lot of conservative people see this and how the goalposts keep changing and gives conservatives more reason to distrust what is being said and mandated and encouraged vaccines being only one of them. Now the Democrats have figured out that by keeping these draconian measures in place with people who are fully vaccinated has backfired big time. You can't get people on board with getting this vaccine if they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What is the point of getting a vaccine if you're gonna make me wear a mask and keep away from others anyway.

Dems are just following the advice of the vast majority of medical professionals and treating this as a public health issue, which is what it is.

GOP are the ones making it a political issue.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.

I guess you and stratosphere really don't understand what vaccines are or what they do or how disease spreads.

Vaccines protect YOU from getting a virus.

The incentive is to not end up with a tube shoved down your throat in an IR bed with people sending you 'thoughts and prayers' on Twitter.

Masks protect OTHERS from you spreading the virus, which you can still pick up and carry around with you even though you are vaccinated.

Pretend you are an adult, show a little patience, wear your mask and get vaccinated, and soon enough things will return to normal.

Stop being a child and making it about ME ME ME ME! and What do I get? I want it NOW NOW NOW!

Looks like the greatest generation is gone, and it's been replaced by the 'me' generation.


Considering the variety of pronouncements on masks and their effectiveness by one Doctor Fauci alone, it’s hard to believe their value especially when there’s a wide variety of masks cleanliness, wearing protocols and the like.

Second, there’s a lot of evidence that the vaccines reduce viral load and transmissions from vaccinated persons. You’re just continuing the fear porn. 66 million fully vaccinated people, 5800 breakout infections all minor. Accept that vaccinated are not a threat and protected OR just wear a mask forever because this ain’t away. It’s about odds, not absolutes.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z

I’m probably older than you, it’s not “me, me, me”, it’s about being reasonable. I’m adult, lots of community and years of military service, stop typecasting based on nothing.

Last I read, public health experts don’t run the country, elected officials do.

You might watch this about corrupted science and technocracy.

https://youtu.be/2oro0ttU2_A


Translation: I know more than health experts who collectively have decades in a field with rigorous research and reporting protocols. As one conservative commentator said recently, this attitude is simply arrogant narcissism. Having it abounds in society makes it malignant narcissism.

Masks are not a difficult ask, full stop. As Rev said, the greatest generation we are not.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 10:55 pm

From a country which has eliminated the virus circulating in the community, the refusal to wear masks, restrict travel and undertake simple hygiene measure seems to be a case of wide-scale insanity.

Until he was vaccinated, my brother in law in the NE was double masking everywhere outside the house, assuming (quite reasonably) that there would be at least one infectious but undiagnosed person at the supermarket every single time. My sister in law almost entirely stayed at home with my young nephew.

And even then they struggle with the fact of the international travel restrictions my country has in place to allow (mostly) freedom form virus based restrictions domestically.
 
LMP737
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 11:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.


NO incentive to be vaccinated in this country? If that's the case it just shows what bunch of selfish, self centered jerks this nation has become.

How's this for incentive to be vaccinated. Not spreading disease to your fellow countrymen. Like those who have decided not to get it for whatever reason, ignorance usually. Or those who cannot because they have compromised immune systems. How about giving health care workers in this country a break from being overwhelmed by this disaster. There's something Dr. Fauci said regarding this virus, it cannot mutate if it cannot replicate. That should be good enough reason for anybody. Last thing we need is for this to turn into something nastier down the road because people didn't have enough "incentive" to get the shot.

Sadly, too many people in this country are more worried about having to wear a mask and how it affects THEM. Me, me, me, me.
 
LMP737
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 11:15 pm

stratosphere wrote:
I have and still have questions about this vaccine that no one has answers for. This vaccine is NOT FDA approved it has been released on an EUA emergency use authorization. It is new technology relatively speaking and we do not know how long the immunity lasts or the long term effects if any of mRNA . t.


The answers are out there, you're just not looking hard enough.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 11:15 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.

There was an evangelical epidemiologist from Baylor interviewed on the radio yesterday--she's trying to make inroads into the evangelical community and encourage them to wear masks, get the vaccine, etc..

She now has to have additional security for her house and family due to the threats.

#blessed


Religion ruins everything.

I dont think herd immunity in the form of vaccinating 70% of the worlds population was ever really an option. Were just going to have to live with it but that doesnt mean the destruction of the social aspects of our lives or aviation. Eventually, this will end up being more benign but it will take time. Mutations are nothing to fear since viruses, overwhelmingly, mutate to become less harmful to hosts. HIV is the only one I can think of where they didnt really happen.

Even now were reporting the lowest in new cases since last summer in the US. The human body is remarkable. Its better to get the vaccine but post infection immunity is also a very real thing. Its not 100% of course, but it and the vaccine in combo is definitely providing a backstop.


Herd immunity doesn't mean the virus is gone. It means that it runs into immune people more often to the point where the virus can no longer infect at an exponential rate, this is the biggest threat. If the infection rate is stable the virus can be dealt with in the community.

luckyone wrote:
2. Not getting a booster minimizes your immunity to variants. Which is why we get a flu shot every season and not just once. Boosting immunity is also why the HepB vaccine is a series of shots, and why you get a Tdap every ten years or so.


Coronaviruses don't mutate at the rate influenza does. IIRC the flu virus has so much more circulation within humans that you kind of have to guess the prevalent strains each year.

We might need 1 booster but as long as the vaccine reduces hospitalization and death its fine. Furthermore antivirals are coming so that will be a huge benefit as well.

As far as I know no one who is fully vaccinated has been hospitalized or died from Covid. You actually want this virus to become endemic because constant exposure keeps your immune system remembering it. If existing immunity provides no protection, you have a new virus. With the flu occasionally you get pandemic influenza like the H1N1 that caused the 2009 Swine flu pandemic and the Spanish Flu. It has yet to be determined if coronaviruses do this.

Even the flu shot does a good job a reducing severity and keeps people out of the hospital and that vaccine is 40% effective.

stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.


Not everyone who declines the vaccines is an anti-vaxer. I am the farthest thing from an anti-vaxer and even I almost backed out while waiting in line to get my vaccine. I have and still have questions about this vaccine that no one has answers for. This vaccine is NOT FDA approved it has been released on an EUA emergency use authorization. It is new technology relatively speaking and we do not know how long the immunity lasts or the long term effects if any of mRNA . Not to mention what NIK just said this has been politicized by both sides. In the end I personally chose to get it because I know enough people who contracted COVID and some did not fair well. However, most did but I have too many co-morbidities to take the chance. It is about weighing your risk. I do not fault anyone who chooses not to get it.


mRNA vaccines are incredibly simple.

Your body uses mRNA to create proteins already, it does this all the time.
A covid mRNA vaccine uses mRNA to instruct cells to manufacture the covid spike protein and the body will see these as an foreign invader and respond accordingly with antibodies, T cells to take them out and B cells to remember the pathogen. The spike protein by itself is harmless. If you encounter Covid in the future then the body remembers the protein and attacks it before you get sick or you get a mild illness.

Coronaviruses in nature appear to have an ability to thwart memory responses that leave people somewhat vulnerable once antibodies are gone but the vaccines create a strong memory response which is a positive sign that long term immunity is likely.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The biggest deterrent to more vaccinations is there presently is NO incentive to be vaccinated. You get vaccinated, a nice CDC form signed saying you’re vaccinated on xx date. Two weeks later, it gets you ZERO—Fauci is still saying wear masks, TSA still mask rules, towns in my state are overruling the relaxation of mask requirements, even requiring them outdoors, which has always been stupid and still the Fear Show goes on.

“Vaccinated, Sir, step right this way, take off the mask and order from the waitstaff, proceed to the gate, whatever”.


:checkmark: :checkmark:

This is the biggest deterrent to vaccination and thankfully the US in many places is not taking this anymore.
 
LMP737
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 11:22 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Problem is this was politicized way too much. There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it. I got vaccinated but I won't get any more shots or boosters. They are not needed. Wear a mask indoors. Wash and sanitize and try to social distance as best you can. We will build immunity and the virus will continue to decline. After the fall if high risk people want to get more shots then so be it.:


Here immunity is the reason you don't have to worry about things like small pox or polio. To say there's no such thing is just plain foolish.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Mon May 03, 2021 11:59 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Problem is this was politicized way too much. There is no such thing as "herd immunity" Fauci took the real term "immunity" and added "herd" to it.

Wut. Do you just make things up? Herd immunity is a well defined concept that has been around for a century. And it was the strategy of the last administration since containment, contact tracing, or literally doing anything was too much for them to handle.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 12:13 am

To the silly Greatest Generation meme,

The Greatest Generation sacrificed their lives after surviving the Depression to protect our freedoms while today’s generation are sacrificing their freedoms after surviving the best economy in a century to merely reduce their risks to lives. Worst of all, it was members of the Greatest Generation who suffered the most deaths due to COVID, mostly in states where government’s specifically directed their return to known high-risk infection care facilities. Shameful.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 12:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
To the silly Greatest Generation meme,

The Greatest Generation sacrificed their lives after surviving the Depression to protect our freedoms while today’s generation are sacrificing their freedoms after surviving the best economy in a century to merely reduce their risks to lives. Worst of all, it was members of the Greatest Generation who suffered the most deaths due to COVID, mostly in states where government’s specifically directed their return to known high-risk infection care facilities. Shameful.


As someone wise said a few months ago, conflating masks with our freedoms demonstrates a six year old’s understanding of freedom. Mature adults do not respond via kicking and screaming to reasonable policies with everyone’s interest in mind. Like, ever.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 12:47 am

stratosphere wrote:
casinterest wrote:
These folks and their "individual freedoms " are usually the same folks that argue that a woman can't get an abortion. It's the usual hypocrisy I see in the circles of anti-vaxers around here.

We will be headed for a long term issue, but hopefully articles like this will convince the individual freedoms folks that their freedom to be stupid has real costs for everyone.


Not everyone who declines the vaccines is an anti-vaxer. I am the farthest thing from an anti-vaxer and even I almost backed out while waiting in line to get my vaccine. I have and still have questions about this vaccine that no one has answers for. This vaccine is NOT FDA approved it has been released on an EUA emergency use authorization. It is new technology relatively speaking and we do not know how long the immunity lasts or the long term effects if any of mRNA . Not to mention what NIK just said this has been politicized by both sides. In the end I personally chose to get it because I know enough people who contracted COVID and some did not fair well. However, most did but I have too many co-morbidities to take the chance. It is about weighing your risk. I do not fault anyone who chooses not to get it.



95% are anti vaxer/anti intelligent. End of story. 5% are genuine immune compromised people that depend on everyone getting vaccinated The questions I have heard from folks that haven't gotten vaccinated have already been answered. They just choose to ignore the answers. The vaccines are FDA approved for emergency use, and it is about as good as you are going to get for a solution.
The issue with folks not taking the vaccine is that everyone has to live with Covid for far longer than we want.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 12:52 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
To the silly Greatest Generation meme,

The Greatest Generation sacrificed their lives after surviving the Depression to protect our freedoms while today’s generation are sacrificing their freedoms after surviving the best economy in a century to merely reduce their risks to lives. Worst of all, it was members of the Greatest Generation who suffered the most deaths due to COVID, mostly in states where government’s specifically directed their return to known high-risk infection care facilities. Shameful.


As someone wise said a few months ago, conflating masks with our freedoms demonstrates a six year old’s understanding of freedom. Mature adults do not respond via kicking and screaming to reasonable policies with everyone’s interest in mind. Like, ever.



Especially when he wants to confuse reported deaths with actually causing the deaths. The Greatest Generation would be disappointed in everyone that watches Fox news. Those folks are who we had to fight in Europe. Uninformed fascists'.
 
Derico
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 12:59 am

Revelation wrote:
Early in the pandemic, when vaccines for the coronavirus were still just a glimmer on the horizon, the term "herd immunity" came to signify the endgame: the point when enough Americans would be protected from the virus so we could be rid of the pathogen and reclaim our lives. Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable -- at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever. Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.

Ref: https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/0 ... ow-believe

So, it seems we'll get to the point where those that care to take the vaccine will have to keep up on boosters that can take out some but not all of the mutations, and the rest will deal with getting infected and hopefully not dying or having their health impacted too much.

I guess this represents a recalibration of our outlook on the disease, but as one willing to take and fortunate enough to get the vaccine, so be it.


With all due respect to "science", but did I need MIT, Oxford, Max Planck, the Russian Academy, the WHO, or anyone else to tell me this?

I have been on record saying this since March last year. I am 100% convinced I am no Einstein and that millions more knew where this was headed all the way back then. But probably most of those millions were holding out hope or just refusing reality.

Respiratory viruses are by their nature, impossible to eradicate. Especially when they have a quick enough rate of mutation. Anyone on this planet who thought the vaccines would put the fragrance sprayed all over the house back in the spray bottle was just in denial or utterly misinformed.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:22 am

Derico wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Early in the pandemic, when vaccines for the coronavirus were still just a glimmer on the horizon, the term "herd immunity" came to signify the endgame: the point when enough Americans would be protected from the virus so we could be rid of the pathogen and reclaim our lives. Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable -- at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever. Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.

Ref: https://science.slashdot.org/story/21/0 ... ow-believe

So, it seems we'll get to the point where those that care to take the vaccine will have to keep up on boosters that can take out some but not all of the mutations, and the rest will deal with getting infected and hopefully not dying or having their health impacted too much.

I guess this represents a recalibration of our outlook on the disease, but as one willing to take and fortunate enough to get the vaccine, so be it.


With all due respect to "science", but did I need MIT, Oxford, Max Planck, the Russian Academy, the WHO, or anyone else to tell me this?

I have been on record saying this since March last year. I am 100% convinced I am no Einstein and that millions more knew where this was headed all the way back then. But probably most of those millions were holding out hope or just refusing reality.

Respiratory viruses are by their nature, impossible to eradicate. Especially when they have a quick enough rate of mutation. Anyone on this planet who thought the vaccines would put the fragrance sprayed all over the house back in the spray bottle was just in denial or utterly misinformed.


However with a wildly available vaccine, we can start to nail these. Especially now that we know mRNA vaccines work.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:25 am

I'm a bit more optimistic for you guys. Obviously it's disappointing to see the rollout drop towards 2m/day, but there's reasons to be positive. You've got 55.8% of your adults vaccinated (first dose) with only just starting to use measures to encourage vaccination. So incentives like beer(! NJ iirc) and $100 in some state. It's clear some states - Hawaii seem keenest - will be giving some benefits to travellers who have been vaccinated. And even if this benefits can be had with a recent PCR test, it's still a hassle people will want to avoid. Same with some employers and colleges - though I know some red states have moved to legislate against discrimination on vaccine grounds.

But most of all time. The hardcore will never have the vaccine, but I'm sure there's a huge cohort who just aren't that comfortable just yet, and with the passage of time demonstrating the safety of the vaccines, and as it has become something you can do on an impulse, at a walk in centre or a pharmacy, people who were previously hesitant will trickle in. It's interesting to see that the number of over 65's has crept up to 82.6% which is good news.

So how do you get from 55.8% to the 85% of adults you will probably need (along with a good chunk of under 18's)? While the national picture may suggest a slowing down due to hesitancy at a state level it looks like a good half are still using their allocation. Those states are going to drive it. But it seems to me there are other options. Obviously immunity from infection will play a part. But there's also boosters. What I mean, is the various calculations on how many people do you need to be vaccinated for herd immunity, make assumptions about vaccine efficacy for example. So, per the NYT article, the old figures for herd immunity were 60-70%, but more transmissible variants have driven that up to 80%. But boosters, particularly of a different vaccine, and especially one tailored to the more transmissible variants could drive that number down again. Israel is looking to give 4 vaccine doses to its population this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the US doesn't do similar, or at least one in autumn and another in winter/spring.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:33 am

johns624 wrote:
I find it ironic that those who 6 months ago were talking about herd immunity now won't get the vaccine, keeping society from getting immunity.

That's because they didn't talk about "herd immunity" but rather "herd mentality"...and it shows...like cattle. One says no, they all say no. One person posts on Facebook, they're suddenly the expert.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:37 am

BaconButty wrote:
I'm a bit more optimistic for you guys. Obviously it's disappointing to see the rollout drop towards 2m/day, but there's reasons to be positive. You've got 55.8% of your adults vaccinated (first dose) with only just starting to use measures to encourage vaccination. So incentives like beer(! NJ iirc) and $100 in some state. It's clear some states - Hawaii seem keenest - will be giving some benefits to travellers who have been vaccinated. And even if this benefits can be had with a recent PCR test, it's still a hassle people will want to avoid. Same with some employers and colleges - though I know some red states have moved to legislate against discrimination on vaccine grounds.

But most of all time. The hardcore will never have the vaccine, but I'm sure there's a huge cohort who just aren't that comfortable just yet, and with the passage of time demonstrating the safety of the vaccines, and as it has become something you can do on an impulse, at a walk in centre or a pharmacy, people who were previously hesitant will trickle in. It's interesting to see that the number of over 65's has crept up to 82.6% which is good news.

So how do you get from 55.8% to the 85% of adults you will probably need (along with a good chunk of under 18's)? While the national picture may suggest a slowing down due to hesitancy at a state level it looks like a good half are still using their allocation. Those states are going to drive it. But it seems to me there are other options. Obviously immunity from infection will play a part. But there's also boosters. What I mean, is the various calculations on how many people do you need to be vaccinated for herd immunity, make assumptions about vaccine efficacy for example. So, per the NYT article, the old figures for herd immunity were 60-70%, but more transmissible variants have driven that up to 80%. But boosters, particularly of a different vaccine, and especially one tailored to the more transmissible variants could drive that number down again. Israel is looking to give 4 vaccine doses to its population this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the US doesn't do similar, or at least one in autumn and another in winter/spring.



Looking at Israel, they are having great success with their rollout. The cases are down to less than 100 per day. North Carolina is still averaging 1724 per day with only 50% more residents.

We need the herd immunity, and I am still hopeful we can get there by the mechanisms you have outlines. I have seen that Target, the local groceries, and other places now have walk up vaccine appointments. Hopefully we get there. But we need to keep the trend going.

At 80+% of seniors vaccinated we are getting closer to success as that is where most deaths came from, but it would be great to get to 90+%.

There is some hope that some of the unvaccinated already had it. There are studies suggesting there is less than an 20% chance of reinfection for those that have already survived it.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 1:42 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m probably older than you, it’s not “me, me, me”, it’s about being reasonable.


Yes, it is.
It is about grown adults like yourself throwing tantrums for having to go through the life-crippling inconvenience ( :sarcastic: ) of having to wear a mask once in a while and for a limited period of time or those refusing to get a shot while thousands die of a contagious disease.

I have been convinced for a while that we would never achieve herd immunity because of those adult-childs who refuse to care about all those that get seriously sick since 'it doesn't affect them'.
That's an unfortunate inevitability, but as the OP said, 'so be it' as long as the rest of the population has a decent way of protecting itself from these people. We have to move on.

But I will never entertain the argument that this is not, 100%, the result of selfishness.

I just hope that as many employers, businesses and institutions as possible make being vaccinated conditional for doing any sort of business with them.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:44 am

As a foreigner looking in I must say I find it sickening that people in countries that have hoarded the vaccines (which caused the supply chain to slow down for other countries) are choosing to listen to uneducated blowhards and choose not to vaccinate themselves.

Absolutely sickening. Imagine how many people would have lived if they had gotten the vaccine that these hideous anti-vaxxers have declined, especially in countries that are not as well off as these hoarder countries.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 6:59 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As a foreigner looking in I must say I find it sickening that people in countries that have hoarded the vaccines (which caused the supply chain to slow down for other countries) are choosing to listen to uneducated blowhards and choose not to vaccinate themselves.

Absolutely sickening. Imagine how many people would have lived if they had gotten the vaccine that these hideous anti-vaxxers have declined, especially in countries that are not as well off as these hoarder countries.


You have my sincere apologies. The selfishness in our midst is completely shameful.
 
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par13del
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:22 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As a foreigner looking in I must say I find it sickening that people in countries that have hoarded the vaccines (which caused the supply chain to slow down for other countries) are choosing to listen to uneducated blowhards and choose not to vaccinate themselves.

Absolutely sickening. Imagine how many people would have lived if they had gotten the vaccine that these hideous anti-vaxxers have declined, especially in countries that are not as well off as these hoarder countries.

In reality, the anit-vaxers are not the one's who hoarded the vaccines or prevented their export, that was done by the politicians. Now were they following the advise of the medical community, and if they were, how come the medical professionals who supposedly work in the community on a daily basis prior to COVID had no idea that there would be hesitancy?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Herd Immunity Losing Out To Vaccine Hesitation and Virus Mutation

Tue May 04, 2021 11:23 am

In hindsight, young people should have been vaccinated first. It would have reduced the spread rapidly. Isolating elderly is easier than young active population

From an ROI(yes, wrong way to look at that way) perspective, giving a dose to 18 year old is better than giving it to 98 year old.

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