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art
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China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 1:07 pm

Chinese military scientists discussed the weaponisation of SARS coronaviruses five years before the COVID-19 pandemic, outlining their ideas in a document that predicted a third world war would be fought with biological weapons.


Source is behind paywall: http://www.theaustralian.com

Story taken up by English newspaper dailymail (not known for its accuracy in reporting)

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-say.html
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 2:11 pm

art wrote:
Chinese military scientists discussed the weaponisation of SARS coronaviruses five years before the COVID-19 pandemic, outlining their ideas in a document that predicted a third world war would be fought with biological weapons.


Source is behind paywall: http://www.theaustralian.com

Story taken up by English newspaper dailymail (not known for its accuracy in reporting)

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-say.html


The Daily Mail is a right wing tabloid. The Australian is a right wing broadsheet. The story is only being picked up by other far right media like the Daily Wire, the rest of western media (which has an anti-China bias) isn't even touching it.

The author of that article is Sharri Markson, a right wing Murdoch employee who is promoting her new book. Using information from ASPI a think tank that is really pushing a hard anti-China line.

With that knowledge of obvious bias in mind we can see that it's just a Chinese document stating that viruses could be weaponised by any group in warfare, not that they had a plan to weaponise a virus.

I'm sure every half decent military or intelligence service in the world will have documents explaining how biological weapons could be used in warfare. That doesn't mean they have an active program to develop one. The US military is currently studying in laboratories the use of multiple biological agents in warfare, doesn't mean they are planning to use one.

The sources promoting this story all have a vested interest in pushing the "China developed Covid as a biological weapon" theory that most virologists have stated there's no hard evidence for.
 
DTVG
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 3:26 pm

 
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Francoflier
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 3:56 pm

How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.
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Newark727
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 4:09 pm

Francoflier wrote:
How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.


I guess you could do mass vaccinations ahead of time, but that's a big warning to your opponent as to what you're planning. You're also effectively attacking neutral populations as soon as the thing jumps national borders. Weaponizing viruses isn't a new idea, but I don't think it's ever caught on for this and other reasons.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 4:32 pm

DTVG wrote:


Whatever that was is no longer there.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
alfa164
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 4:32 pm

I can already the conspiracy theorists are going to be attracted like flies to this topic...

:roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
petertenthije
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 4:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DTVG wrote:


Whatever that was is no longer there.

It's still there for me? Maybe it's region blocked?
I did not read the full article, it's a stretch of text longer then the combined Harry Potter works.

It's final two sentences should give you an indication:
The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

And then let the reckoning begin.
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 4:43 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DTVG wrote:


Whatever that was is no longer there.

It's still there for me? Maybe it's region blocked?
I did not read the full article, it's a stretch of text longer then the combined Harry Potter works.

It's final two sentences should give you an indication:
The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

And then let the reckoning begin.


Oh brother, in that case, glad I didn’t have to read it :boggled:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
DTVG
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 5:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Whatever that was is no longer there.

It's still there for me? Maybe it's region blocked?
I did not read the full article, it's a stretch of text longer then the combined Harry Potter works.

It's final two sentences should give you an indication:
The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

And then let the reckoning begin.


Oh brother, in that case, glad I didn’t have to read it :boggled:


It’s actually quite factual and is definitely not a typical conspiracy theory article. Even if you totally disagree with the whole lab theory (which I more or less do), you can learn something new.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 6:20 pm

DTVG wrote:


That's a bunch of nonsense, and yes, I've read it. Mr. Wade has an axe to grind and clearly wants to assign blame to someone, so Peter Daszak is his target. The same Peter Daszak who has dedicated his career to preventing just this sort of event.

The fact is that SE Asia is crawling with sarbecoviruses and it was only a matter of time before another one spilled over into humans and started a new outbreak. I've been warning about this since 2002, Peter Daszak has been warning about this since 2002, and just about anyone who understands RNA viruses has been warning about this since 2002 (or before).

When it's a Nipah or Hendra variant next time, who are they going to blame? What about if a MERS variant with an Ro >1 pops out?

If you want to implicate the Wuhan Institute, then you need positive proof, not just the fact that there's an institute for virology in the city where the outbreak was first recognized. That's just begging the question.
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DTVG
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 6:45 pm

Ok, as I said I’m not a big fan of the whole lab theory, but I found the article interesting.

What is your opinion about the subsection “Comparing the Rival Scenarios of SARS2 Origin” in the article?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun May 09, 2021 10:50 pm

DTVG wrote:
Ok, as I said I’m not a big fan of the whole lab theory, but I found the article interesting.

What is your opinion about the subsection “Comparing the Rival Scenarios of SARS2 Origin” in the article?


Nicholas Wade only has an Arts degree in Natural Science, not any specific disease or virology training. He’s spent no time in actual scientific research, just writing articles for the New York Times. Some of his works have been radical to say the least. He’s written books promoting scientific racism and the “race IQ” theory that have been denounced by scientists but promoted by white supremacists like Stefan Molyneaux and David Duke.

The target of his criticism, Peter Daszak, is one of the world’s leading experts on disease ecology, specifically how infectious diseases jump form animals to humans.

I know who I trust and it ain’t Wade......
 
acecrackshot
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 12:32 am

Francoflier wrote:
How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.


Or, you are willing to accept the collateral damage.

See also, theoretical use of tactical nuclear weapons in Germany, 1946-1990.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 12:37 am

DocLightning wrote:
If you want to implicate the Wuhan Institute, then you need positive proof, not just the fact that there's an institute for virology in the city where the outbreak was first recognized. That's just begging the question.


Or, shaving with Occams Razor.

When there was an outbreak of mailed anthrax within 30 miles of Fort Deatrick, suspicions rightly turned on to Fort Deatrick.

However, in this case, the standard of reasonable suspicion seems closer to absolute proof.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 am

acecrackshot wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
If you want to implicate the Wuhan Institute, then you need positive proof, not just the fact that there's an institute for virology in the city where the outbreak was first recognized. That's just begging the question.


Or, shaving with Occams Razor.

When there was an outbreak of mailed anthrax within 30 miles of Fort Deatrick, suspicions rightly turned on to Fort Deatrick.

However, in this case, the standard of reasonable suspicion seems closer to absolute proof.


Fort Detrick*, fixed that for you.

And anyway, Occam’s razor only applies in situations where a simple causal relationship is sought. Epidemiology deals with complex scenarios - human activity and interaction with environment do not come close to simple relationships.

‘Proof’ is proof, regardless of what one wants to believe. ‘Reasonable suspicion’ is nonsense without multiple correlated data points. “Oh! there’s a lab there” is one. “Oh there’s a shady authoritarian government there!” is two. And that’s it. Junk conclusion.

If you want to use Occam, apply it to Doc’s statement about SE Asia being the most warned-about region for two decades.
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 1:36 am

art wrote:
Chinese military scientists discussed the weaponisation of SARS coronaviruses five years before the COVID-19 pandemic, outlining their ideas in a document that predicted a third world war would be fought with biological weapons.


Source is behind paywall: http://www.theaustralian.com

Story taken up by English newspaper dailymail (not known for its accuracy in reporting)

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-say.html

That the australian link does not lead to specific story?
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 1:57 am

acecrackshot wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
If you want to implicate the Wuhan Institute, then you need positive proof, not just the fact that there's an institute for virology in the city where the outbreak was first recognized. That's just begging the question.


Or, shaving with Occams Razor.

When there was an outbreak of mailed anthrax within 30 miles of Fort Deatrick, suspicions rightly turned on to Fort Deatrick.

However, in this case, the standard of reasonable suspicion seems closer to absolute proof.


Suspicions did not rightly turn on Ft. Detrick until the bacteria was analyzed and determined to be a pathogenic Ames-strain Ft. Detrick USAMRIID was working with. People had all kinds of weird theories out there. Do not reinvent history.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 2:04 am

Pellegrine wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
If you want to implicate the Wuhan Institute, then you need positive proof, not just the fact that there's an institute for virology in the city where the outbreak was first recognized. That's just begging the question.


Or, shaving with Occams Razor.

When there was an outbreak of mailed anthrax within 30 miles of Fort Deatrick, suspicions rightly turned on to Fort Deatrick.

However, in this case, the standard of reasonable suspicion seems closer to absolute proof.


Suspicions did not rightly turn on Ft. Detrick until the bacteria was analyzed and determined to be a pathogenic Ames-strain Ft. Detrick USAMRIID was working with. People had all kinds of weird theories out there. Do not reinvent history.


You mean hard science was the key to the puzzle? Why, I never! :lol:
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon May 10, 2021 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pellegrine
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 2:13 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

Or, shaving with Occams Razor.

When there was an outbreak of mailed anthrax within 30 miles of Fort Deatrick, suspicions rightly turned on to Fort Deatrick.

However, in this case, the standard of reasonable suspicion seems closer to absolute proof.


Suspicions did not rightly turn on Ft. Detrick until the bacteria was analyzed and determined to be a pathogenic Ames-strain Ft. Detrick USAMRIID was working with. People had all kinds of weird theories out there. Do not reinvent history.


You mean hard science was the key to puzzle? Why, I never! :lol:


It was some special super-secret Vektor Soviet stuff they tried out in Uzbekistan in 1986 on Vozrozhdeniya Island with an anti-flocculant agent. Ken Alibek can sell you that story, but there were actually more interesting (and dangerous) things they were working on. Like genetically modifying Ebola and Marburg, I think 2 scientists died since the 80s from finger pricks, but none of that ever got out. There's 2 infamous cases that did though, one flu and one anthrax.

(half joke, half true)
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 am

DTVG wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
It's still there for me? Maybe it's region blocked?
I did not read the full article, it's a stretch of text longer then the combined Harry Potter works.

It's final two sentences should give you an indication:


Oh brother, in that case, glad I didn’t have to read it :boggled:


It’s actually quite factual and is definitely not a typical conspiracy theory article. Even if you totally disagree with the whole lab theory (which I more or less do), you can learn something new.


Its completely a typical conspiracy theory article, its a bunch of the normal conspiracy claims strung together with no substance.
 
Sokes
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 6:22 am

Fun fact:
McCarthy died 48 years old of acute hepatitis.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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DocLightning
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 3:08 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:

Nicholas Wade only has an Arts degree in Natural Science, not any specific disease or virology training.


I just want to point out that between Mr. Wade and myself, only one of us has ever done a plaque assay. Only one of us has manipulated a viral gene. Only one of us has loaded a gel. Only one of us has actually worked with RNA (a finicky and fragile process that makes surgery look positively filthy).

And it's not Mr. Wade.
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wingman
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm

What about the line of thought that the CV-19 wasn't made made but was being studied at the local viral research center and "got loose"? Has that been completely debunked? I remember the story from a few months back about the WHO visiting Wuhan and being paraded around like show ponies before confirming that the virus wasn't man-made. But they never got anywhere near that lab to verify whether it might've been carried out due to shoddy practices. I'm not saying I believe this, but that whole Wuhan WHO charade smelled might fishy. Normally I praise the Chinese government for its honesty and transparency.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Tue May 11, 2021 1:13 am

wingman wrote:
What about the line of thought that the CV-19 wasn't made made but was being studied at the local viral research center and "got loose"? Has that been completely debunked?


Yes. Had a logical think. There are about a quadrillion quadrillion viruses in the world, 10 with 36 zeros behind it. Do you think Chinese scientists somewhat captured the one specific virus that causes Covid out in the wild, started studying it in a lab and allowed to to leak, rather than that virus infecting one of the 1 to 7 million people worldwide each year who get infected with a bat coronavirus?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-pandemic

I remember the story from a few months back about the WHO visiting Wuhan and being paraded around like show ponies before confirming that the virus wasn't man-made. But they never got anywhere near that lab to verify whether it might've been carried out due to shoddy practices.


Totally incorrect. A scientist on the investigation team wrote this and confirmed they had been allowed to inspect the lab, received full co-operation from their Chinese colleagues and found no evidence to suggest a “lab leak”.

https://theconversation.com/amp/i-was-t ... rus-155554
 
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moo
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Tue May 11, 2021 3:20 am

wingman wrote:
What about the line of thought that the CV-19 wasn't made made but was being studied at the local viral research center and "got loose"? Has that been completely debunked? I remember the story from a few months back about the WHO visiting Wuhan and being paraded around like show ponies before confirming that the virus wasn't man-made. But they never got anywhere near that lab to verify whether it might've been carried out due to shoddy practices. I'm not saying I believe this, but that whole Wuhan WHO charade smelled might fishy. Normally I praise the Chinese government for its honesty and transparency.


It hasn't been debunked because you can't prove that something didn't happen (seriously, how do you prove a virus didn't escape from a lab?), so theres nothing at all thats actually going to shut up the conspiracy nuts out there.

Same way you can't prove the Royals aren't lizard people.

No one seems to care that there wasn't a lab anywhere near the MERS outbreak, or the first SARS outbreaks decades ago, or bird flu, or hamthrax (swine flu) or that there are plenty of other viruses that have been shown to jump the species barrier all around the world - but *this* one, *this* time around simply *has* to be the responsibility of the Chinese government because .... well, we are supposed to hate the Chinese aren't we and this gives us a reason to?
 
wingman
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Tue May 11, 2021 2:08 pm

moo wrote:
No one seems to care that there wasn't a lab anywhere near the MERS outbreak, or the first SARS outbreaks decades ago, or bird flu, or hamthrax (swine flu) or that there are plenty of other viruses that have been shown to jump the species barrier all around the world - but *this* one, *this* time around simply *has* to be the responsibility of the Chinese government because .... well, we are supposed to hate the Chinese aren't we and this gives us a reason to?


I was only asking. I work in Financial Services and have zero training in viral research, sorry. But you're right, this theory has been debunked by nearly all professionally trained experts. Interestingly, the Chinese government is pushing an alternative theory that COVID was started by tainted frozen imported from outside the country, possibly the US. The story is below:
https://apnews.com/article/pandemics-be ... 76a6bc4077

I'm just one person asking a question. China is a whole country hiding, deflecting, and pushing bullshit theories. That must really piss you off.
 
wingman
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Tue May 25, 2021 6:22 pm

This story is back in the news and gaining traction even amongst trained virologists. I wonder what the world would think of China’s coverup if it were to be proven that the virus accidentally escaped the lab.
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Tue May 25, 2021 6:39 pm

moo wrote:
wingman wrote:
What about the line of thought that the CV-19 wasn't made made but was being studied at the local viral research center and "got loose"? Has that been completely debunked? I remember the story from a few months back about the WHO visiting Wuhan and being paraded around like show ponies before confirming that the virus wasn't man-made. But they never got anywhere near that lab to verify whether it might've been carried out due to shoddy practices. I'm not saying I believe this, but that whole Wuhan WHO charade smelled might fishy. Normally I praise the Chinese government for its honesty and transparency.


It hasn't been debunked because you can't prove that something didn't happen (seriously, how do you prove a virus didn't escape from a lab?), so theres nothing at all thats actually going to shut up the conspiracy nuts out there.

Same way you can't prove the Royals aren't lizard people.

No one seems to care that there wasn't a lab anywhere near the MERS outbreak, or the first SARS outbreaks decades ago, or bird flu, or hamthrax (swine flu) or that there are plenty of other viruses that have been shown to jump the species barrier all around the world - but *this* one, *this* time around simply *has* to be the responsibility of the Chinese government because .... well, we are supposed to hate the Chinese aren't we and this gives us a reason to?

After the initial wave of SARS outbreak there are confirmed and officially admitted lab leak of SARS virus causing some additional infection. So a repeat wouldn't be too surprising.
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 2:21 am

wingman wrote:
This story is back in the news and gaining traction even amongst trained virologists. I wonder what the world would think of China’s coverup if it were to be proven that the virus accidentally escaped the lab.


Ummmm...they would think it's par for the PRC course?
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sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 3:03 am

wingman wrote:
This story is back in the news and gaining traction even amongst trained virologists. I wonder what the world would think of China’s coverup if it were to be proven that the virus accidentally escaped the lab.


Not amongst the virologists who’ve actually been studying the virus origin, are you referring to people like Luc Montagnier who are now anti vax conspiracy theorists?

The latest “gaining traction” is a report from the US Intelligence community (warning flag there) leaked to a right wing Murdoch owned paper (second warning flag) that 3 scientists at the WIV came down with symptoms of Covid in November 2019. Except what most media don’t put in the headline is the fact they came down with symptoms of Covid or any other common seasonal respiratory illness like the cold or flu in the city in late Autumn.

So it’s just a circumstantial talking point that has an easy explanation.
 
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 3:53 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
wingman wrote:
This story is back in the news and gaining traction even amongst trained virologists. I wonder what the world would think of China’s coverup if it were to be proven that the virus accidentally escaped the lab.


Not amongst the virologists who’ve actually been studying the virus origin, are you referring to people like Luc Montagnier who are now anti vax conspiracy theorists?

The latest “gaining traction” is a report from the US Intelligence community (warning flag there) leaked to a right wing Murdoch owned paper (second warning flag) that 3 scientists at the WIV came down with symptoms of Covid in November 2019. Except what most media don’t put in the headline is the fact they came down with symptoms of Covid or any other common seasonal respiratory illness like the cold or flu in the city in late Autumn.

So it’s just a circumstantial talking point that has an easy explanation.


It does...but the more and more I read what is going on, the more and more convinced I am that COVID is a case of Gain of Function research gone bad. I do not believe there was any intent of malice on the part of the CCP in this. But what I believe happened was there was Gain of Function research going on in this Wuhan lab, trying to prevent another SARS outbreak, and the function created a mutated SARS which became Covid and this got leaked out of the lab. I read in a ten year period, there were a total of over 1000 viruses that escaped from the Lab during this Gain of Function research. Without trying to sound too political, Obama tried to put an end to this research during his administration. However, Trump reinstated funding for it during his time in office. (Probably due to lobby by Fauci, who is a proponent of this research) Rand Paul today got an amendment to end funding for this research approved by Voice Vote in the senate. (If something gets passed by voice vote these days, you know its right)

The CCP is stonewalling this investigation in my opinion because I think they fear the truth will make them look bad. I don't agree with this stance. If this was truly the result of Gain of Function research, we need to know it, not for political reasons but for scientific reasons so we can prevent this from happening again. Finding the root cause will actually be good for the CCP long term because they are in the best position to quickly end this, and seek other methods of research to prevent pandemics in the future. And I think the WHO and other countries need to insist on a more thorough investigation. This will take some serious diplomacy given the fragile nature of China's relationships with many western powers at the moment. But I think we will all benefit from this in the long run. And the WHO needs to step up more as well. I believe the WHO and Fauci are involved in a CYA mentality themselves because they feel they will be implicated if this was truly GOF research gone bad. Fauci's testimony before the senate last week unfortunately sounded more like that of a Lawyer than a scientist. And that is not what we need from our health experts right now.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 4:45 am

There’s no evidence WIV was performing gain of function study.

There’s absolutely no hard evidence the virus leaked from the lab

The world’s top virologists have stated this clearly and are fairly sure it came from nature, although they say can’t be certain 100%.

The deniers are not producing any evidence it came from a lab, only complaints about China not being “open” enough. That’s not evidence. They are mostly people who have are part of mainstream virology.

It took 15 years to fully investigate SARS, that’s too long for the modern media and they want a bad guy now. And what better to make the bad guy the emerging threat to US dominance. This is all political
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 7:15 am

Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 8:11 am

There’s so much doubt that it should be fully investigated. Also if China had nothing to hide, why did they wait over a year before they let WHO experts in?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 8:28 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...


Nowhere does Fauci say he’s “coming around” to that. He even admits the likely outcome as defined by virologists (which he admits he’s not one and they are the experts) is that it’s a natural origin. He doesn’t provide any tangible evidence to back up your claim.

Here’s a good tweet thread on how this type of conspiracy theory becomes mainstream without any substantive evidence backing it up:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoNscience/s ... 1651742724
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 8:33 am

Francoflier wrote:
How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.


How did Tom Clancy do in his book Executive Decision? That's how.
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 8:49 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html


Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.
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sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 8:53 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

How did Tom Clancy do in his book Executive Decision? That's how.


Bad 90s media confused just like those who’ve confused Covid for an engineered bio weapon.

Executive Decision is a bad 90s action movie starring Kurt Russell and Steven Seagal where the US Military saves the day against evildoers.

Executive Orders is the bad overblown 90s “techno thriller” novel by Tom Clancy where the US military saves the day against evildoers. Clancy is an insurance salesman by trade. He writes about Iran using an airborne version of Ebola and the US military justifiably punishing them as revenge. Of course to him US=perfect any of America’s enemies=pure evil.

And just to point out real scientists don’t use overly long bad 90s novels as scientific theory.

For a bit of Aviation content Executive Decision is also the movie where a dozen soldiers somehow hide in an F-117 and sneak onto a 747 inflight at 30,000ft, and then somehow pre solo student pilot Kurt Russell manages to land a 747 on a municipal airport. I guess it’s as accurate with regards to aviation as Executive Orders is to biological warfare.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 9:52 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

How did Tom Clancy do in his book Executive Decision? That's how.


Bad 90s media confused just like those who’ve confused Covid for an engineered bio weapon.

Executive Decision is a bad 90s action movie starring Kurt Russell and Steven Seagal where the US Military saves the day against evildoers.

Executive Orders is the bad overblown 90s “techno thriller” novel by Tom Clancy where the US military saves the day against evildoers. Clancy is an insurance salesman by trade. He writes about Iran using an airborne version of Ebola and the US military justifiably punishing them as revenge. Of course to him US=perfect any of America’s enemies=pure evil.

And just to point out real scientists don’t use overly long bad 90s novels as scientific theory.

For a bit of Aviation content Executive Decision is also the movie where a dozen soldiers somehow hide in an F-117 and sneak onto a 747 inflight at 30,000ft, and then somehow pre solo student pilot Kurt Russell manages to land a 747 on a municipal airport. I guess it’s as accurate with regards to aviation as Executive Orders is to biological warfare.


Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction...
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art
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 10:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html


Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.


Unless China is entirely open about what actually happened (and that is not the CCP way of doing things), the rest of the world will be prevented from knowing what actually happened. Fertile situation for the growth of theories that can neither be proved nor disproved.

To me the damage occasioned by the CCP control of information is that knowledge of how COVID-19 originated and began being transmitted is being denied to the rest of the world by China. Knowing what happened to bring this virus into existence, what mistakes were made initially in dealing with its appearance in humans is of great importance tothe world's understanding of how to react to another novel virus in the future.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 10:45 am

art wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html


Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.


Unless China is entirely open about what actually happened (and that is not the CCP way of doing things), the rest of the world will be prevented from knowing what actually happened. Fertile situation for the growth of theories that can neither be proved nor disproved.

To me the damage occasioned by the CCP control of information is that knowledge of how COVID-19 originated and began being transmitted is being denied to the rest of the world by China. Knowing what happened to bring this virus into existence, what mistakes were made initially in dealing with its appearance in humans is of great importance tothe world's understanding of how to react to another novel virus in the future.


Agreed - science is never well served by political interference - or status quo, as it were.
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casinterest
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 12:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
art wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.


Unless China is entirely open about what actually happened (and that is not the CCP way of doing things), the rest of the world will be prevented from knowing what actually happened. Fertile situation for the growth of theories that can neither be proved nor disproved.

To me the damage occasioned by the CCP control of information is that knowledge of how COVID-19 originated and began being transmitted is being denied to the rest of the world by China. Knowing what happened to bring this virus into existence, what mistakes were made initially in dealing with its appearance in humans is of great importance tothe world's understanding of how to react to another novel virus in the future.


Agreed - science is never well served by political interference - or status quo, as it were.


China is not being forthcoming. We might never know how this virus got into the open, but China is leaving all possibilities on the table by not being forthcoming in letting everyone review the data.

Maybe the November cases of researchers were just bad cases of seasonal flu. We won't know without more data from China.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aesma
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 1:51 pm

You have to admit COVID-19 is absolutely useless as a weapon. Young people (hint : soldiers) are the least affected by it !
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casinterest
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 2:15 pm

Aesma wrote:
You have to admit COVID-19 is absolutely useless as a weapon. Young people (hint : soldiers) are the least affected by it !


Death wise yes, but in theory making the enemy sick and distracted/overwhelmed with a domestic health crisis is economically and politically viable for those willing to make the sacrifice. I was watching SW:Rebels with my Kid, and this is the point Thrawn(Grand Admiral of the Empire) makes to Ezra( jedi ) in a scene where Ezra is trying to save lives.

It takes a cold hearted look at what you can do to your enemy, but in the military, peace and comfort are usually not on the planning table for the mission.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
wingman
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 4:12 pm

Aesma wrote:
You have to admit COVID-19 is absolutely useless as a weapon. Young people (hint : soldiers) are the least affected by it !


Seeing how it turned Americans against each other over scientific facts tells me a virus is about the most elegant weapon there is. When half a nation's population is ready to chuck logic and truth in favor of third-rate demagoguery a virus becomes the perfect alternative to carpet bombing.
 
afcjets
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 5:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.


No it's not, the Washington Post debunked this fringe conspiracy theory over a year ago :roll:

"Tom Cotton keeps repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked."

Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) repeated a fringe theory suggesting that the ongoing spread of a coronavirus is connected to research in the disease-ravaged epicenter of Wuhan, China.

Cotton referenced a laboratory in the city, the Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory, in an interview on Fox News’s “Sunday Morning Futures.” He said the lab was near a market some scientists initially thought was a starting point for the virus’s spread.

“We don’t know where it originated, and we have to get to the bottom of that,” Cotton said. “We also know that just a few miles away from that food market is China’s only biosafety level 4 super laboratory that researches human infectious diseases.”

The latest on the coronavirus: curfews, recession fears and Americans evacuated
With no end in sight of the outbreak, 300 Americans quarantined for two weeks on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship were flown home on Feb. 16. (Reuters)
Yet Cotton acknowledged there is no evidence that the disease originated at the lab. Instead, he suggested it’s necessary to ask Chinese authorities about the possibility, fanning the embers of a conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly debunked by experts.

“Now, we don’t have evidence that this disease originated there, but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says,” Cotton said. “And China right now is not giving any evidence on that question at all.”

Cotton is referring to a well-known lab in Wuhan, a “Cellular Level Biosafety Level 4” facility with a high level of operational security that works on researching dangerous pathogens.

In response to Cotton’s remarks, as well as in previous interviews with The Washington Post, numerous experts dismissed the possibility the coronavirus may be man-made.

“There’s absolutely nothing in the genome sequence of this virus that indicates the virus was engineered,” said Richard Ebright, a professor of chemical biology at Rutgers University. “The possibility this was a deliberately released bioweapon can be firmly excluded.”

Vipin Narang, an associate professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said it is “highly unlikely” the general population was exposed to a virus through an accident at a lab.

“We don’t have any evidence for that,” said Narang, a political science professor with a background in chemical engineering.

“It’s a skip in logic to say it’s a bioweapon that the Chinese developed and intentionally deployed, or even unintentionally deployed,” Narang said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... onspiracy/
 
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casinterest
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 5:30 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.


No it's not, the Washington Post debunked this fringe conspiracy theory over a year ago :roll:

"Tom Cotton keeps repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked."

Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) repeated a fringe theory suggesting that the ongoing spread of a coronavirus is connected to research in the disease-ravaged epicenter of Wuhan, China.

Cotton referenced a laboratory in the city, the Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory, in an interview on Fox News’s “Sunday Morning Futures.” He said the lab was near a market some scientists initially thought was a starting point for the virus’s spread.

Support our journalism. Subscribe today.
“We don’t know where it originated, and we have to get to the bottom of that,” Cotton said. “We also know that just a few miles away from that food market is China’s only biosafety level 4 super laboratory that researches human infectious diseases.”

The latest on the coronavirus: curfews, recession fears and Americans evacuated
With no end in sight of the outbreak, 300 Americans quarantined for two weeks on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship were flown home on Feb. 16. (Reuters)
Yet Cotton acknowledged there is no evidence that the disease originated at the lab. Instead, he suggested it’s necessary to ask Chinese authorities about the possibility, fanning the embers of a conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly debunked by experts.

“Now, we don’t have evidence that this disease originated there, but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says,” Cotton said. “And China right now is not giving any evidence on that question at all.”

Cotton is referring to a well-known lab in Wuhan, a “Cellular Level Biosafety Level 4” facility with a high level of operational security that works on researching dangerous pathogens.

In response to Cotton’s remarks, as well as in previous interviews with The Washington Post, numerous experts dismissed the possibility the coronavirus may be man-made.

“There’s absolutely nothing in the genome sequence of this virus that indicates the virus was engineered,” said Richard Ebright, a professor of chemical biology at Rutgers University. “The possibility this was a deliberately released bioweapon can be firmly excluded.”

Vipin Narang, an associate professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said it is “highly unlikely” the general population was exposed to a virus through an accident at a lab.

“We don’t have any evidence for that,” said Narang, a political science professor with a background in chemical engineering.

“It’s a skip in logic to say it’s a bioweapon that the Chinese developed and intentionally deployed, or even unintentionally deployed,” Narang said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... onspiracy/



What is your point? That you have faith in people that make wild lying claims and then try to get facts to fit their unsupported logic?
or that Fauci is saying it is a possibility in order to pressure China to release more information on what they know?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 5:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
You have to admit COVID-19 is absolutely useless as a weapon. Young people (hint : soldiers) are the least affected by it !

I think there is an arguement for COVID-19 as an economic weapon, it ties up so much manpower and resources and impacts public morale.
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pune
Posts: 552
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Wed May 26, 2021 5:58 pm

FWIW, while many do believe the same there is no evidence. Kerala had an outbreak of Nipah and even that was supposed to be a bioengineered by China. And even without the vaccine with only 21 deaths Kerala was able to control the same.

https://www.livemint.com/science/health ... 03936.html

Later, it was found out that patient 0 (from whom the virus came) was an adventure and wildlife photographer who used to go biking in Kerala. Once on a bike trip, he came across an injured small bat which he removed from the road to a tree. Apparently, the virus got transferred to him from that bat. The small/child bat uses it as a defence mechanism. Later he died but infected all those around him.

And till date, there is no vaccine against Nipah.

And there have been warnings against Nipah outbreaks

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 738edd5e12

And if one really wants to be in a conspiracy theory model than why not use the 1% idea. Apparently, the 1% a few years ago were thinking ways to depopulate the planet. It could be as valid idea as everything else.
Last edited by pune on Wed May 26, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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