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pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:27 am

Putting blame on the Chinese Govt. is the easiest thing to do. As I had shared earlier when the Nipah outbreak happened in the state of Kerala, India again the justification was sought to be that it is China which has somehow weaponized it. As had shared, when it was discovered that it was a guy who was helping a young fruit bat by taking it and putting it back in the forest, the young had secreted the virus as its defence mechanism. That whole thing when shared was thrown aside or not commented as it does not suit the scenario.

Even when shared that UK missed doing what is required (Exercise Cygnus) and didn't do what is needed, Again quietly ignored. Is this the first virus to jump from animal to human ? No. Would this be the last virus to jump from animal to human ? Again no. As shared by another poster, the more we go into animal habitat, the more would be possibility of such animal-to-human transmission. This is not the first, not it would be the last. And sane people have been warning about Nipah, again but it is again falling on deaf ears. That is as much as can be done. Even if you do take this idea that the Chinese did something, it is for Governments to save their people. It is their responsibility to act fast and save their people. That is called leadership.

That is the precisely the reason I shared that documentary by Germany which showed instead of using science to guide us and be better, we are using all the tools just to confuse ourselves and abdicate ourselves of any responsibility. I had shared how my Govt. acted irresponsibly in identifying the threat. I am sure even in U.S. there were people who said the opposite. I believe there was a whole cache of leaked e-mails which told how the scientists were concerned between November 2019 - February 2020 (think it was in Washington Post or some other publication) but Mr. Trump would not hear any of it. He chose to believe, what he chose to believe from TV.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:18 am

I'm curious as to whether China has done anything about the wet food markets. If, as they claim, it came from one, surely they would have all been closed down?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:38 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I'm curious as to whether China has done anything about the wet food markets. If, as they claim, it came from one, surely they would have all been closed down?


Are you kidding? The CCP knows if they closed these markets down they'd have a real citizen mutiny on their hands. Can't shut down something so indelible in the culture.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Are you kidding? The CCP knows if they closed these markets down they'd have a real citizen mutiny on their hands. Can't shut down something so indelible in the culture.

Or, possibly, the wet markets were not the source of the outbreak. If they were, surely they would have had to improve or regulate them. Funny, one of the things that surprised me about Beijing was the quality and standard of the street food. Yet you go to the wet markets and they are another world altogether.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:31 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Are you kidding? The CCP knows if they closed these markets down they'd have a real citizen mutiny on their hands. Can't shut down something so indelible in the culture.

Or, possibly, the wet markets were not the source of the outbreak. If they were, surely they would have had to improve or regulate them. Funny, one of the things that surprised me about Beijing was the quality and standard of the street food. Yet you go to the wet markets and they are another world altogether.


It's where the working class gets their food supplies - not much to really be done other than more inspection when you're serving a market of 500+ million. As I said, shutting down entirely is not an option.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It's where the working class gets their food supplies - not much to really be done other than more inspection when you're serving a market of 500+ million. As I said, shutting down entirely is not an option.

Really? At the risk of shutting down the country -- or the world -- again?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:32 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It's where the working class gets their food supplies - not much to really be done other than more inspection when you're serving a market of 500+ million. As I said, shutting down entirely is not an option.

Really? At the risk of shutting down the country -- or the world -- again?


By our standards, yeah, that's a logical concern. But their cultural values are obviously different. This is why epidemiologists have had a keen eye on East/SE Asia and West Africa for years with very high likelihood something would emerge from these wet markets.
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:39 pm

pune wrote:
Putting blame on the Chinese Govt. is the easiest thing to do. As I had shared earlier when the Nipah outbreak happened in the state of Kerala, India again the justification was sought to be that it is China which has somehow weaponized it. As had shared, when it was discovered that it was a guy who was helping a young fruit bat by taking it and putting it back in the forest, the young had secreted the virus as its defence mechanism. That whole thing when shared was thrown aside or not commented as it does not suit the scenario.

Some politicians like to find excuse and blàme others, doesn't mean the scenario isn't actually possible, and there are many more than politicians discussing it now.
Not to mention, even if laboratories weren't involved in initial infection and distribution of the virus, Chinese government would still be responsible for the cover up during the initial outbreak.
Even when shared that UK missed doing what is required (Exercise Cygnus) and didn't do what is needed, Again quietly ignored. Is this the first virus to jump from animal to human ? No. Would this be the last virus to jump from animal to human ? Again no. As shared by another poster, the more we go into animal habitat, the more would be possibility of such animal-to-human transmission. This is not the first, not it would be the last. And sane people have been warning about Nipah, again but it is again falling on deaf ears. That is as much as can be done.

It is only natural for virus to jump from animal to human. Doesn't mean that is the only way, and even such prposed theory of lab leak doesn't rule out the virus naturally jump from animal to human, although it involved additional medium.
Even if you do take this idea that the Chinese did something, it is for Governments to save their people. It is their responsibility to act fast and save their people. That is called leadership.

I disagree with this as well.
For a regularly circulating virus, I think the government responsibility ends where the Public Health system ends, in preventing the spread and treating the patients.
Pandemic is special in its highly infective nature, higher rate of fatal outcone, and its negative impact on the nedical system as well as functioning of the wider society, hence the governments needs to response to it using various means from quarantine to mask mandate to lock down to mass vaccination campaign, to prevent them from infecting more citizens, killing them, and disrupt the society.
For things that are fatal yet non-infective, like excess use of sugar, or alcohol, government doesn't really have much plave in saving the people's life from them.
Hence, governments' role in such pandemic is to ensure safety of society and citizens from the transmissive nature of the pandemic pathogen, and to treat citizens through the public health system.
There are no one but god who can guarantee sick people after reciving proper treatment can be saved.
Observably, some country governments have failed such role in preventing the spread of pandemic and failed to minimize impact of it on their society snd their people, and some like China even used the pandemic as a chance to sabotage against it people and its society and result in great damages by information manipulation and further enforcement of society control tools, with many of the life lost to the pandemic, but I don't think it can be ssid that government failed to save them which government isn't in a position to, but instead governments failed to inform and enact measures appropriately to protect the public.

But, if it is an action intended by authority of certain states, then the circumstances would be quite different as it is a matter of national defense, and as thus responsibility of governments, including thise who are not China, would become much heavier as defending the people from foreign aggression is obviously a government function. And the questioning of responsibility would need to start from why those governments failed to be alerted by such threat.

As for "leadership", I don't think "leadership" is the most important function of a government. Instead a government's role should be guarding and regulating the peace and grow of its society.
That is the precisely the reason I shared that documentary by Germany which showed instead of using science to guide us and be better, we are using all the tools just to confuse ourselves and abdicate ourselves of any responsibility. I had shared how my Govt. acted irresponsibly in identifying the threat. I am sure even in U.S. there were people who said the opposite. I believe there was a whole cache of leaked e-mails which told how the scientists were concerned between November 2019 - February 2020 (think it was in Washington Post or some other publication) but Mr. Trump would not hear any of it. He chose to believe, what he chose to believe from TV.

As shared above, I think such inability in identifying the threat is a greater responsibility for governments around the world to bear, if it is product of foreign governments than if it is naturally occurring.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
By our standards, yeah, that's a logical concern. But their cultural values are obviously different. This is why epidemiologists have had a keen eye on East/SE Asia and West Africa for years with very high likelihood something would emerge from these wet markets.

Sure our standards are different, but compared to, say forty or even thirty years ago China has come a very differenct country. It's now the second largest economy in the world and undoubtedly they want to become the largest. So, like the rest of the world, they are going to learn a lot of valuble lessons from this pandemic. No country wants to go through this again. If the markets were responsible do you really think they could adopt such a laissez-fair attitude to them?
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:33 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
By our standards, yeah, that's a logical concern. But their cultural values are obviously different. This is why epidemiologists have had a keen eye on East/SE Asia and West Africa for years with very high likelihood something would emerge from these wet markets.

Sure our standards are different, but compared to, say forty or even thirty years ago China has come a very differenct country. It's now the second largest economy in the world and undoubtedly they want to become the largest. So, like the rest of the world, they are going to learn a lot of valuble lessons from this pandemic. No country wants to go through this again. If the markets were responsible do you really think they could adopt such a laissez-fair attitude to them?

The trading of wide variety of living wild life in the Wuhan Huanan market was illegal to begin with, according to my understanding, but they just keep existing and government doesn't seems to enforce the law.

But then, according to China official report, they claim there are cases before the cluster at Wuhan Huanan Seafood Market form, hence unless there are further cover up, the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Market is unlikely to be the original source of the outbreak.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It's where the working class gets their food supplies - not much to really be done other than more inspection when you're serving a market of 500+ million. As I said, shutting down entirely is not an option.


“Wet” markets are just selling unrefrigerated food or food slaughtered on purchase. They are actually the main source of food for those in the third world. India, Indonesia, Vietnam, plenty of Asian nations use wet markets at a higher rate than China. Even notoriously clean Singapore uses wet markets. Africa, Latin America use wet markets. Calling for closing down “wet” markets in China is silly as by applying this worldwide it would mean a majority of the world’s population would not be able to purchase food

As China quickly develops and modernises consumers there are rapidly turning away from wet markets to western style grocery stores with refrigerated meat.

Of course it’s all a moot point as the wet market wasn’t the source of the virus:

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-di ... arket.html

But then, according to China official report, they claim there are cases before the cluster at Wuhan Huanan Seafood Market form, hence unless there are further cover up, the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Market is unlikely to be the original source of the outbreak.


Also debunking this are the scientific studies showing SARS-COV-2 antibodies in people in Italy in September 2019:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1620974755

Or the discovery of SARS-COV-2 particles in sewage in Spain in March 2019:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text

Or studies showing France’s first case may have been in November 2019:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text

There’s also studies showing positive cases in early and mid December in the USA in those who had no links to anyone with travel to Asia, indicating it was probably widespread by then.

All these studies show the claim the virus jumped from a bat to a pangolin or something to a human at a Wuhan wet market in late Nov/early Dec is false. Just as false as the claim it leaked accidentally or deliberately leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in late November and caused non specific symptoms in 3 scientists at the WIV as “proof” of a lab leak.

This is why scientists took about 15 years to publish papers fully identifying the origin of SARS. Science isn’t done in the 24hr news cycle to be popular at election time.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:44 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
By our standards, yeah, that's a logical concern. But their cultural values are obviously different. This is why epidemiologists have had a keen eye on East/SE Asia and West Africa for years with very high likelihood something would emerge from these wet markets.

Sure our standards are different, but compared to, say forty or even thirty years ago China has come a very differenct country. It's now the second largest economy in the world and undoubtedly they want to become the largest. So, like the rest of the world, they are going to learn a lot of valuble lessons from this pandemic. No country wants to go through this again. If the markets were responsible do you really think they could adopt such a laissez-fair attitude to them?


Yeah this is an interesting topic (I have some basic info). China is transitioning from a medieval food system to a modern, "food safety inspected" food system, like we have in the US. The US is a giant modern country, so they sometimes study our method. The USDA inspection service and FDA are crowning achievements in our civilization. The US demonstrates how the government can inspect all meat, even at colossal scale. We have been there done that.

China Govt has an accurate understanding that they need to modernize their food system in order to save lives and avoid random plagues and food poisonings. Still, the Chinese have their ways they love to get their food and traditional medicine. It is not so easy to make people change their culture at their prized tribal roots. Maybe 500m Chinese people live a fairly modern lifestyle, but this still leaves 1 billion living the old way! And they are not going to like Hamburger Helper!
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:58 pm

LCDFlight wrote:

The USDA inspection service and FDA are crowning achievements in our civilization. The US demonstrates how the government can inspect all meat, even at colossal scale. We have been there done that.


Really?

Overuse of antibiotics in farm animals (inc the US) is the main driver of antibiotic resistance. Poor sanitation causes the growth of bacteria and fungus. The US has a “shockingly high” level of foodborne illness. Growth hormones that have been linked to higher cancer rates have been banned by other nations but not in the US.

https://truthout.org/articles/factory-f ... eople-too/

Like I’ve been saying throughout this thread the likely cause of this virus is the way our global human population is exploiting the natural world for resources, ever increasing use of poor farming practices that stimulate new disease growth (swine flu), destruction of natural habitats which forces animals to come more into contact with humans.

It’s far more convenient to say “all China’s fault because it came out of a lab!” than admit the way all humans live on this planet is rapidly becoming unsustainable.

And I haven’t even mentioned climate change yet. It’s been put on the back burner while Covid happened but intensity to take real action on that issue will be back very soon.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:50 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

The USDA inspection service and FDA are crowning achievements in our civilization. The US demonstrates how the government can inspect all meat, even at colossal scale. We have been there done that.


Really?

Overuse of antibiotics in farm animals (inc the US) is the main driver of antibiotic resistance. Poor sanitation causes the growth of bacteria and fungus. The US has a “shockingly high” level of foodborne illness. Growth hormones that have been linked to higher cancer rates have been banned by other nations but not in the US.

https://truthout.org/articles/factory-f ... eople-too/

Like I’ve been saying throughout this thread the likely cause of this virus is the way our global human population is exploiting the natural world for resources, ever increasing use of poor farming practices that stimulate new disease growth (swine flu), destruction of natural habitats which forces animals to come more into contact with humans.

It’s far more convenient to say “all China’s fault because it came out of a lab!” than admit the way all humans live on this planet is rapidly becoming unsustainable.

And I haven’t even mentioned climate change yet. It’s been put on the back burner while Covid happened but intensity to take real action on that issue will be back very soon.


Processed food and weird hormones are certainly problems. But at least we have the infrastructure to accurately test for those things if / when USDA and FDA are convinced by public health people (or Congress) that they should do so. At least we have meat thermometers across the supply chain. The government inspects this.

I understand you see no value in this. In your experience, E. coli was at least searched for, milk was pasteurized, water was fluoridated. It just happened automatically for you. Question, do you agree with sewage treatment? Do you drink raw river water? Why or why not? Anyway the point of my post was: in the US we would not have this wet market problem, because we do have nationwide inspectors and laboratories. China is a work in progress. Roughly the same story for lab safety, but that is for someone else to talk about
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:59 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

The USDA inspection service and FDA are crowning achievements in our civilization. The US demonstrates how the government can inspect all meat, even at colossal scale. We have been there done that.


Really?

Overuse of antibiotics in farm animals (inc the US) is the main driver of antibiotic resistance. Poor sanitation causes the growth of bacteria and fungus. The US has a “shockingly high” level of foodborne illness. Growth hormones that have been linked to higher cancer rates have been banned by other nations but not in the US.

https://truthout.org/articles/factory-f ... eople-too/

Like I’ve been saying throughout this thread the likely cause of this virus is the way our global human population is exploiting the natural world for resources, ever increasing use of poor farming practices that stimulate new disease growth (swine flu), destruction of natural habitats which forces animals to come more into contact with humans.

It’s far more convenient to say “all China’s fault because it came out of a lab!” than admit the way all humans live on this planet is rapidly becoming unsustainable.

And I haven’t even mentioned climate change yet. It’s been put on the back burner while Covid happened but intensity to take real action on that issue will be back very soon.


To be fair, from a systems perspective, foodborne illness in the US likely has less to do with inspection, and more to do with distances food travels, and variance in restaurant/supermarket management competence and oversight.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:38 am

Did anybody see Dark Waters -

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9071322/

I was amazed to learn about PFA's which were made by them.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles ... -chemicals

Another wet market which was not shared is Africa. The point is it can be from anywhere. And as shared before, this jump from animal to human or animal - animal - human or any such chains are easy. Can we tell the whole world to be vegetarian, even though it arguably might be better for the environment and sustainable, no. When we cannot, then we would have to bear costs. Can each portion of meat or whatever go through dozens of inspections to see whether some bacteria or something or the other is there or not, sure but that will raise costs.

As far as US compared to other countries, as far as Europe is concerned, they come up quite short -

https://www.focusforhealth.org/the-amer ... nsumption/

So even this idea that America is the 'best' is not really the thing as far as food is concerned.
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:47 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It's where the working class gets their food supplies - not much to really be done other than more inspection when you're serving a market of 500+ million. As I said, shutting down entirely is not an option.


“Wet” markets are just selling unrefrigerated food or food slaughtered on purchase. They are actually the main source of food for those in the third world. India, Indonesia, Vietnam, plenty of Asian nations use wet markets at a higher rate than China. Even notoriously clean Singapore uses wet markets. Africa, Latin America use wet markets. Calling for closing down “wet” markets in China is silly as by applying this worldwide it would mean a majority of the world’s population would not be able to purchase food

As China quickly develops and modernises consumers there are rapidly turning away from wet markets to western style grocery stores with refrigerated meat.

Of course it’s all a moot point as the wet market wasn’t the source of the virus:

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-di ... arket.html

Another thing is, such traditional way of selling meats provide employment opportunity to many along the logistical chain pf distribution, forced reform could trigger resistance from them.

Also debunking this are the scientific studies showing SARS-COV-2 antibodies in people in Italy in September 2019:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/1 ... 1620974755

Or the discovery of SARS-COV-2 particles in sewage in Spain in March 2019:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text

Or studies showing France’s first case may have been in November 2019:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text

There’s also studies showing positive cases in early and mid December in the USA in those who had no links to anyone with travel to Asia, indicating it was probably widespread by then.

All these studies show the claim the virus jumped from a bat to a pangolin or something to a human at a Wuhan wet market in late Nov/early Dec is false. Just as false as the claim it leaked accidentally or deliberately leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in late November and caused non specific symptoms in 3 scientists at the WIV as “proof” of a lab leak.

This is why scientists took about 15 years to publish papers fully identifying the origin of SARS. Science isn’t done in the 24hr news cycle to be popular at election time.

According to experts in Hong Kong, many of those sewage analysis could be wrong because of low accuracy rate. The Hong Kong government have also tried to implemebt assault-type lockdown on various area after discovering coronavirus resoonse from sewage, but discovered zero cases after testing every single individual in the premise.
It is also unimaginable how a pandemic-causing virus can went undetected in human population without any prevention measure for up to a year before actually causing a global pandemic, when we have already see how quickly it cab transmit after introduction of just a single case.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:22 am

c933103 wrote:
According to experts in Hong Kong, many of those sewage analysis could be wrong because of low accuracy rate. The Hong Kong government have also tried to implemebt assault-type lockdown on various area after discovering coronavirus resoonse from sewage, but discovered zero cases after testing every single individual in the premise.
It is also unimaginable how a pandemic-causing virus can went undetected in human population without any prevention measure for up to a year before actually causing a global pandemic, when we have already see how quickly it cab transmit after introduction of just a single case.


It's not just sewage, there's confirmed blood samples from the latter months of 2019 showing persons with antibodies to the virus far away from China.
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:43 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
According to experts in Hong Kong, many of those sewage analysis could be wrong because of low accuracy rate. The Hong Kong government have also tried to implemebt assault-type lockdown on various area after discovering coronavirus resoonse from sewage, but discovered zero cases after testing every single individual in the premise.
It is also unimaginable how a pandemic-causing virus can went undetected in human population without any prevention measure for up to a year before actually causing a global pandemic, when we have already see how quickly it cab transmit after introduction of just a single case.


It's not just sewage, there's confirmed blood samples from the latter months of 2019 showing persons with antibodies to the virus far away from China.

Well question is how late are we talking about? It's not like China have publicize any of these testing result for comparison either to be able to establish timeline if the point is to show "faraway from China". Furthermore the genetic tree of variants also showed the initial emergence in China then spreaded to Europe and thirdly to North America before summer 2020
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:16 pm

At the end of the day, however you try to do it, unless all the 200 odd countries don't put pressure on China, it is all mere words if you think they are the culprit. Now that is the bar that you would have to cross. Not to mention that China is an influential vote in many international platforms. This is also to be understood. And perhaps that is the reason that many countries including U.S. are not doing much about it. U.S'es own diplomatic clout which was something around 20-30 years ago has been waning, if nothing else then the above itself shows that. If today, U.S. declares a war against any country, how many countries will join ? It is an open question.
 
WIederling
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:31 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.


Or, you are willing to accept the collateral damage.

See also, theoretical use of tactical nuclear weapons in Germany, 1946-1990.


There is an operative around on the globe well known for not looking into consequences beyond direct effects.
( blowback like things are invariable unexpected and unfair :-)

Why was the resident liaison person at the Wuhan institute from the US withdrawn ahead of the Covid19 outbreak?
( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21C3N5 )
assume that such acts and the press around them have a strong "Newspeak" vector.
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:06 pm

pune wrote:
At the end of the day, however you try to do it, unless all the 200 odd countries don't put pressure on China, it is all mere words if you think they are the culprit. Now that is the bar that you would have to cross. Not to mention that China is an influential vote in many international platforms. This is also to be understood. And perhaps that is the reason that many countries including U.S. are not doing much about it. U.S'es own diplomatic clout which was something around 20-30 years ago has been waning, if nothing else then the above itself shows that. If today, U.S. declares a war against any country, how many countries will join ? It is an open question.

Is truth eternally meaningness if we have no currently actionable force?
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
How do you weaponise a virus without it eventually infecting your own population?

One of the defining feature of a weapon is that you can aim it.


Or, you are willing to accept the collateral damage.

See also, theoretical use of tactical nuclear weapons in Germany, 1946-1990.


There is an operative around on the globe well known for not looking into consequences beyond direct effects.
( blowback like things are invariable unexpected and unfair :-)

Why was the resident liaison person at the Wuhan institute from the US withdrawn ahead of the Covid19 outbreak?
( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21C3N5 )
assume that such acts and the press around them have a strong "Newspeak" vector.

Are you trying to suggest US infiltrated and turned the entire Chinese national institute into its own organ, and complied the ruling party of China into help covering up the event until Janueay?
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:56 pm

If somebody other from America had said it, it could be looked into, the problem is U.S. has been guilty of doing all sorts of mischief -

https://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/pen ... the-world/

If it itself does one thing and says another, then they have no right to say anything to any other country.

Also, if you actually look into it, the holy grail of biological warfare is simple, have such bacteria or virus which kills a huge number of population and then the virus itself dies out. That would be the perfect weapon. Now whether China 'intentionally' did it or unintentionally escaped from a lab. does nothing. Over period of time, it would be scientifically proven from where it came, whether China or elsewhere. But as far as the idea of a weapon goes, it just doesn't work as supposed to. Any virus that I as a country would push, I would have the best vaccine, the best anti-dote for my people as well as people who are willing to pay my price. I haven't seen or read anywhere that the Chinese vaccines are better than the American or the European counterparts. Now, this again begs the question, why would I do that ?

And this is right when China itself is grappling with its own less population and aging problem.

https://www.rt.com/news/525257-china-al ... ird-child/

Now try putting a rectangular block into a circle or vice-versa :(
 
pune
Posts: 833
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:04 pm

c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

Or, you are willing to accept the collateral damage.

See also, theoretical use of tactical nuclear weapons in Germany, 1946-1990.


There is an operative around on the globe well known for not looking into consequences beyond direct effects.
( blowback like things are invariable unexpected and unfair :-)

Why was the resident liaison person at the Wuhan institute from the US withdrawn ahead of the Covid19 outbreak?
( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21C3N5 )
assume that such acts and the press around them have a strong "Newspeak" vector.

Are you trying to suggest US infiltrated and turned the entire Chinese national institute into its own organ, and complied the ruling party of China into help covering up the event until January?


There, fixed it.

What he means is simply this, if you are from America and you think that China is an enemy and you have the chance to observe the enemy, what would you rationally do. Would you be putting more resources in China or any other country to keep an eye on them or would you cut back the funding and take your people back. Most strategists would do the reverse of what Mr. Trump did.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5814
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:46 am

pune wrote:
If somebody other from America had said it, it could be looked into, the problem is U.S. has been guilty of doing all sorts of mischief -

https://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/pen ... the-world/

If it itself does one thing and says another, then they have no right to say anything to any other country.

Tons of people outside the US have shared their opinion on the matter who are you blinding yourself from?
Also, if you actually look into it, the holy grail of biological warfare is simple, have such bacteria or virus which kills a huge number of population and then the virus itself dies out. That would be the perfect weapon.

Not all "biological warfare" need to be a weapon of mass destruction
Now whether China 'intentionally' did it or unintentionally escaped from a lab. does nothing. Over period of time, it would be scientifically proven from where it came, whether China or elsewhere. But as far as the idea of a weapon goes, it just doesn't work as supposed to.

People aren't necessarily saying it's a weapon when they said it could be from a laboratory in China
Any virus that I as a country would push, I would have the best vaccine, the best anti-dote for my people as well as people who are willing to pay my price. I haven't seen or read anywhere that the Chinese vaccines are better than the American or the European counterparts. Now, this again begs the question, why would I do that ?

Again you are assuming someone developing a virus can only habe a single intention of killing others. Not even movies work like this.
And this is right when China itself is grappling with its own less population and aging problem.

https://www.rt.com/news/525257-china-al ... ird-child/

Conspiracy could say the virus damage the elders and the weak prominently could be thus desirable in help solving the aging population issue of China although I do not agree
pune wrote:
What he means is simply this, if you are from America and you think that China is an enemy and you have the chance to observe the enemy, what would you rationally do. Would you be putting more resources in China or any other country to keep an eye on them or would you cut back the funding and take your people back. Most strategists would do the reverse of what Mr. Trump did.

I am pretty sure American funding in Chinese scientific research wasn't intended to monitor them. One can also see government investment from pther countries like Japam retreating from China as they see China no longer need help from foreign nations in developing itself and amid rising tension.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:56 am

That is a very naive take. The idea that you do funding and not keep an eye. Even a simple businessman would keep an eye on how his investments are being take care of if it's in another country and here we are talking about viral medical research, where both countries have strategic interests. And of course U.S. also did use on occasion even though it was within their own country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

And we don't have to go far as to how U.S. behaved with the Japanese -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha

There are loads of literature where the Atomic bomb survivors were used by Americans to study the after-effects of the bomb but did not help medically at all.

It is only a decade or so later when the Japanese Govt. putting up efforts in helping them. America does what they think is good for them, nobody else.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:02 am

And btw, the whole idea of biological warfare is to win the battle without firing a single bullet. The Chinese are modelling and doing. You should look up the Chinese Anti-Access/Area technologies that they have developed and are developing. That fits right into this. One has to understand this, the Chinese are working on their 100 year marathon plan. I dunno if you have read it or not. If not, read it. https://thehundredyearmarathon.com/ Would give you some idea.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:08 am

There is also this https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Picks/ ... with-twist and currently from what I have seen U.S. has thought better and kept silent about the whole thing. There is another point to note, the 'leftover men' that I shared, many of them are around 30 years of age and while I agree that human trafficking is a huge problem but all countries next to China have kept silent about it. That is also to be understood.
 
avier
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:49 am

c933103 wrote:
Not all "biological warfare" need to be a weapon of mass destruction

Very true. Most have an understanding that biological warfare, in this day and age, is to do with having a high death rate. I'd say look at the economic destruction it has caused. That is the most important target today amongst rival countries; not killing people but their economies. And this pandemic certainly has destroyed world economies. China though held up very well and their gdp infact grew over the last fiscal.
Two of the worst affected countries were, ironically, China's biggest rivals ; US & India, and has pushed those countries back by a few years.
23cr (230million) in Indian were pushed further into poverty in the pandemic.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... this-study

So if one had to see it from the lens of it being a biological warfare perpetrated by one country to wreck anothers economy, then they have certainly won.
 
WIederling
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:44 am

c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

Or, you are willing to accept the collateral damage.

See also, theoretical use of tactical nuclear weapons in Germany, 1946-1990.


There is an operative around on the globe well known for not looking into consequences beyond direct effects.
( blowback like things are invariable unexpected and unfair :-)

Why was the resident liaison person at the Wuhan institute from the US withdrawn ahead of the Covid19 outbreak?
( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21C3N5 )
assume that such acts and the press around them have a strong "Newspeak" vector.

Are you trying to suggest US infiltrated and turned the entire Chinese national institute into its own organ, and complied the ruling party of China into help covering up the event until Janueay?


Your grave error is to assume that the US allegation of controlled and concerted misdirection by the Chinese administration is true.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:49 am

pune wrote:
What he means is simply this, if you are from America and you think that China is an enemy and you have the chance to observe the enemy, what would you rationally do. Would you be putting more resources in China or any other country to keep an eye on them or would you cut back the funding and take your people back. Most strategists would do the reverse of what Mr. Trump did.


good observation. but..
What if the dispatched operator had finished his job of influencing, spying or gained the information desired?

"Damage is done, things will develop as desired. come home!"
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:18 am

WIederling wrote:
pune wrote:
What he means is simply this, if you are from America and you think that China is an enemy and you have the chance to observe the enemy, what would you rationally do. Would you be putting more resources in China or any other country to keep an eye on them or would you cut back the funding and take your people back. Most strategists would do the reverse of what Mr. Trump did.


good observation. but..
What if the dispatched operator had finished his job of influencing, spying or gained the information desired?

"Damage is done, things will develop as desired. come home!"


This does not work with China or for that matter any other country. You can take out one or two people, but a whole team, never. Remember, China does it strategy not in days, months but years and decades. And that is known by military strategists of U.S. You should read some of the white papers which your military experts and intelligence officials put in public domain. Even if it is all smoke and mirrors, some things do come through.

What Mr. Trump did was not just in China, but also for his own country.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... defund-cd/

Now you only tell me, why did Mr. Trump did what he did. And this is in heart of U.S. not China.
 
wingman
Posts: 4193
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:23 pm

pune wrote:
America does what they think is good for them, nobody else.


As critical as I am of my own country I will always defend its record of lifting up so many allies and defeated enemies after WWII. I don't think any other country in history can lay claim to helping lead the creation of so much wealth for so many people, and not just its own. Who else has ever accomplished such a thing? What you describe there is actually the perfect description of China today. Everything it does is for the sole and exclusive benefit of itself. Its ambition is so naked that it's only saved by its spending and consumption. It has no internal opposition, no public dissent, no impartial system of justice and no investigative journalism. There are absolutely zero checks and balances. How many times did European countries stand up to the US over the decades? How many times did we stand up to ourselves? That's the most important difference of all. Even Trump with his army of 70M conspiracy-driven lunatics got checked. A lot of people thrived economically with the freedom to express themselves and continue to do so today. A lot of people thrive thanks to China's economic might too, but the day we all stop caring about how important that balancing feature is is the day we all cave into the China 100 year model. Imagine if the US has been the source of a virus that killed 3.5M+ people in 12 months. This country would've been eviscerated by itself, its allies and enemies alike. But here we are debating about how condescending and hypocritical it is for the world to demand the truth from China. It's fascinating how people are so willing to criticize the US but are so fearful and timid when it comes to China. It's because they don't tolerate the criticism and mete out economic punishment with severity and alacrity. I can only imagine how much worse they'll become if we all cave in now. 3.5M dead and the destruction of so many lives and livelihoods around the world is worth the effort to find out the damned truth.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:03 pm

wingman wrote:
pune wrote:
America does what they think is good for them, nobody else.


As critical as I am of my own country I will always defend its record of lifting up so many allies and defeated enemies after WWII. I don't think any other country in history can lay claim to helping lead the creation of so much wealth for so many people, and not just its own. Who else has ever accomplished such a thing? What you describe there is actually the perfect description of China today. Everything it does is for the sole and exclusive benefit of itself. Its ambition is so naked that it's only saved by its spending and consumption. It has no internal opposition, no public dissent, no impartial system of justice and no investigative journalism. There are absolutely zero checks and balances. How many times did European countries stand up to the US over the decades? How many times did we stand up to ourselves? That's the most important difference of all. Even Trump with his army of 70M conspiracy-driven lunatics got checked. A lot of people thrived economically with the freedom to express themselves and continue to do so today. A lot of people thrive thanks to China's economic might too, but the day we all stop caring about how important that balancing feature is is the day we all cave into the China 100 year model. Imagine if the US has been the source of a virus that killed 3.5M+ people in 12 months. This country would've been eviscerated by itself, its allies and enemies alike. But here we are debating about how condescending and hypocritical it is for the world to demand the truth from China. It's fascinating how people are so willing to criticize the US but are so fearful and timid when it comes to China. It's because they don't tolerate the criticism and mete out economic punishment with severity and alacrity. I can only imagine how much worse they'll become if we all cave in now. 3.5M dead and the destruction of so many lives and livelihoods around the world is worth the effort to find out the damned truth.


Let me first talk about the science and then we can go on the politicking side of things.

Figuring out the source of the outbreak is no easy task. An example we can take is the Ebola outbreak which happened between 2013-2016 but till date we don't have a definite origin. It spread to so many countries and none of the countries are powerful but still nothing is conclusive till date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_A ... s_epidemic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_A ... c#Virology

As you can see from the language, all the sentences start with a doubt, nothing definite, 'it is likely', 'possibly'. Now one uses those words when one is uncertain. And I completely understand that it is going to take time. It may even take a decade or it may be inconclusive and that is how science progresses.

Now I didn't want to go there but you opened up how U.S. is good and proper hence the need to correct.

Now as far as your contention about U.S. is concerned. Should I start with your own history or the work that U.S. did along with IMF which made rich countries richer and poor countries poorer.

America became rich on two counts, first the import of African slaves from Africa and taking land from the original descendants of the country, the various Indian tribes. See in the following humorous video about the Lakhota people, but this has been the same of all tribes which were there in U.S. You make an agreement, and it's not worth the paper it is written on. Of course, it is your country, and it's up to you to do whatever you wish, but it does say something about you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX4s1ZLW_PI

Now, India too suffered from IMF loans where the conditions given were given with atrocious conditions. How our people paid those loans back is known only by us or are forefathers/foremothers. I saw the time when in 1991 we had to pledge our gold as the whole of the earlier decade has been gone through paying twice-thrice the amount whatever loans India had taken. Of course, it did make U.S. and its friend rich.

How can we also forget how India was forced to go through humiliation in the 60's to eat PL480 wheat -

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/s ... n/645168/1 - Would urge you to read the whole thing.

Then from 1950's onwards U.S. was always in a war every decade and it became rich by war economy. It's isn't just like that U.S. is known as a war economy and military-industry complex.

In the 1970's after the oil shocks, you make sure that chip fabrication technology will not be shared with anybody, including allies. That is the reason why, even today India cannot fabricate chips below 45nm while you are are working on 2nm. And this has been for decades.

To add fuel to the fire, you had TRIPS and TRIPS+ which again protected the richer countries became richer while other countries (specifically global south) and Latin America. As I shared U.S. always looks after itself.

Even in IPR regime, if one looks at history, the first patent understanding scheme is by Vienna 1474

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Patent_Statute

U.S. disregarded both patents and copyrights whether it was Statue of Anne or Licensing of the Press Act 1662 both of which were passed in UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licensing ... s_Act_1662

It continued with piracy on books and inventions till 1790 when it made its first limited copyright law.

Now it has become full-blown rent-seeking business for U.s.

We are supposed to be allies but Mr. Trump threatened us.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 1bVQJ.html

This is all history. I personally have no axe to grind whether it is U.S. or China for that matter. The way I see it, whether it is U.S. or China or even India, all are bad. All of the countries take reactive decisions
 
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c933103
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:28 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

There is an operative around on the globe well known for not looking into consequences beyond direct effects.
( blowback like things are invariable unexpected and unfair :-)

Why was the resident liaison person at the Wuhan institute from the US withdrawn ahead of the Covid19 outbreak?
( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21C3N5 )
assume that such acts and the press around them have a strong "Newspeak" vector.

Are you trying to suggest US infiltrated and turned the entire Chinese national institute into its own organ, and complied the ruling party of China into help covering up the event until Janueay?


Your grave error is to assume that the US allegation of controlled and concerted misdirection by the Chinese administration is true.

One don't need the US telling them to see what Chinese government have been pushing inside and outside China
 
wingman
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:06 pm

pune wrote:
This is all history. I personally have no axe to grind whether it is U.S. or China for that matter. The way I see it, whether it is U.S. or China or even India, all are bad. All of the countries take reactive decisions


I'd argue that 3.5M dead should be an exception to your rule that all past behavior excuses future behavior. But China's ability to deflect and refocus blame on others works powerfully on some. Oh well, I have faith that the theory of relativity will bear out yet again.

And if you think my support of the US as "good and proper" is unconditional then you have read many of my posts here.
 
pune
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:41 am

wingman wrote:
pune wrote:
This is all history. I personally have no axe to grind whether it is U.S. or China for that matter. The way I see it, whether it is U.S. or China or even India, all are bad. All of the countries take reactive decisions


I'd argue that 3.5M dead should be an exception to your rule that all past behavior excuses future behavior. But China's ability to deflect and refocus blame on others works powerfully on some. Oh well, I have faith that the theory of relativity will bear out yet again.

And if you think my support of the US as "good and proper" is unconditional then you have read many of my posts here.


First, I don't need to see your other posts and nor I have checked what you said about your support to U.S. is good or not. I took your statement in good-faith. And anyhow, we both are using pseudonyms as nick handles, so let's not get into that.

Now, just as I shared above, it is going to be hard to pin it on them. Of course, people are mad because they have lost their near and dear ones and need a villain, so make it China. I did see however that you didn't bother to even attempt to explain the past wrong doings of U.S.

Please see -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVH3GKmQy8

The first couple of slides itself sets the tone and tells what's what. Today more than ever the ones who are being killed are not as much as to the virus as much as to non-availability of the vaccine.

And I know that U.S. has told it would give to some but how many countries 8-10 when we have 200 odd nations that U.N. recognizes. Should it all fall on U.S. shoulders, of course not but as one of the influential countries, it could use and have used its real-politicking prowess to nudge others and lead and share the technology with the rest of the world. Why can't the technology behind MNRA be simply made open-source. You do that and you will see lot of hacks which will come and people will use their creativity to make MNRA treatment more cheaper and yet more effective. But U.S. chose to go into a very 'narrow lane' where it will be highly selective.

Even Dr. Katalin Kariko used public money most of her life to carry on her research on MNRA and it took decades, now of course others are profiting from her work.

Even the whole 'IP Waiver' is nothing but sham. Most of the medical breakthroughs, vaccines and general medicine have come through tax-payer funded research which when it comes to fruition is sold/given to a commercial U.S. entity. Who wins in this, the 1% .

https://issues.org/drug-pricing-and-tax ... -research/

https://other98.com/taxpayers-fund-phar ... velopment/

Till the 1970's education in U.S. was free as it is in Germany today, but what changed. What changed was you had people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Thurgood Marshall and many others who came out and challenged all sorts of notions and power.

The idea of student loan was simply to discourage black, Latin and other minority students to not complete high-school or college. They should get into gangs and gang warfare and die and that is what happened. Today, we see more and more states having 'open carry' and more anti-abortion laws. Unionization still seems to be a bad word and are making new laws to prohibit the same. We just recently saw what happened at Amazon and others when people wanted to unionize and have 'living wages'. Many of your own economists themselves say that the minimum living wage should be $30 across the board and what you have is many states $10- $15 an hr. We did see in many threads in here as well as other places how farms having Mexican labor were not protected.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/1 ... ers-459845

Even the independent farmers have been disappearing since the 1970's but hardly anybody takes the notice.

https://time.com/5736789/small-american ... xtinction/

As shared in the last post it is your country so you know the best as to how to govern your country but it does say something about you.

Most of the gains made by the civil rights in the 70's and 80's seemed to be wiped off .

Even Elon Musk in SpaceX have been funded for billions by U.S. Govt, his own funding was just few millions and even in that there probably were loans and grants mixed from other places/sources.

I do not want to take anything away from Mr. Musk but the truth is the truth.

I could go on and on but it will be simply repeating the obvious. U.S. does as it wants. Of course, the way it kills is professional, make the conditions such that the person has to commit suicide and then nobody can call it murder.

I would share one theory which does have some rational basis but nobody has even bothered to check and probably because finding and punishing those will be hard.

Few years ago, the 1% had shared into many publication/periodicals that it would be good to de-populate the planet a little bit. We do that and many of the climate change issues will no longer be so important. In fact, Uk did a wargame scenario of precisely that just few years ago and they called it 'Exercise Cygnus'.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... id-it-find

In how many other countries were any similar war games with similar scenarios war-gammed. Nobody has even bothered to check if something like this was done by other countries around the same time. If even a few countries did, it might show up a pattern which possibly may disturb the ones who are sleeping peacefully.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5814
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:56 am

pune wrote:
wingman wrote:
pune wrote:
This is all history. I personally have no axe to grind whether it is U.S. or China for that matter. The way I see it, whether it is U.S. or China or even India, all are bad. All of the countries take reactive decisions


I'd argue that 3.5M dead should be an exception to your rule that all past behavior excuses future behavior. But China's ability to deflect and refocus blame on others works powerfully on some. Oh well, I have faith that the theory of relativity will bear out yet again.

And if you think my support of the US as "good and proper" is unconditional then you have read many of my posts here.


First, I don't need to see your other posts and nor I have checked what you said about your support to U.S. is good or not. I took your statement in good-faith. And anyhow, we both are using pseudonyms as nick handles, so let's not get into that.

Now, just as I shared above, it is going to be hard to pin it on them. Of course, people are mad because they have lost their near and dear ones and need a villain, so make it China. I did see however that you didn't bother to even attempt to explain the past wrong doings of U.S.

Please see -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyVH3GKmQy8

Except people have been calling it out even before rest of the world were being hit by the pandemic?
The first couple of slides itself sets the tone and tells what's what. Today more than ever the ones who are being killed are not as much as to the virus as much as to non-availability of the vaccine.

And I know that U.S. has told it would give to some but how many countries 8-10 when we have 200 odd nations that U.N. recognizes. Should it all fall on U.S. shoulders, of course not but as one of the influential countries, it could use and have used its real-politicking prowess to nudge others and lead and share the technology with the rest of the world. Why can't the technology behind MNRA be simply made open-source. You do that and you will see lot of hacks which will come and people will use their creativity to make MNRA treatment more cheaper and yet more effective. But U.S. chose to go into a very 'narrow lane' where it will be highly selective.

Even Dr. Katalin Kariko used public money most of her life to carry on her research on MNRA and it took decades, now of course others are profiting from her work.

Even the whole 'IP Waiver' is nothing but sham. Most of the medical breakthroughs, vaccines and general medicine have come through tax-payer funded research which when it comes to fruition is sold/given to a commercial U.S. entity. Who wins in this, the 1% .

https://issues.org/drug-pricing-and-tax ... -research/

https://other98.com/taxpayers-fund-phar ... velopment/

With the development funded by US taxpayers, why shouldn't the distribution and allocation of such products be pripritized to benefit US national and US industries the most?

Till the 1970's education in U.S. was free as it is in Germany today, but what changed. What changed was you had people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Thurgood Marshall and many others who came out and challenged all sorts of notions and power.

The idea of student loan was simply to discourage black, Latin and other minority students to not complete high-school or college. They should get into gangs and gang warfare and die and that is what happened. Today, we see more and more states having 'open carry' and more anti-abortion laws. Unionization still seems to be a bad word and are making new laws to prohibit the same. We just recently saw what happened at Amazon and others when people wanted to unionize and have 'living wages'. Many of your own economists themselves say that the minimum living wage should be $30 across the board and what you have is many states $10- $15 an hr. We did see in many threads in here as well as other places how farms having Mexican labor were not protected.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/1 ... ers-459845

Even the independent farmers have been disappearing since the 1970's but hardly anybody takes the notice.

https://time.com/5736789/small-american ... xtinction/

As shared in the last post it is your country so you know the best as to how to govern your country but it does say something about you.

US have not been a country that would turn dream into policy ignoring consequences and that have proved to be sustainable unlike some other countries.
Most of the gains made by the civil rights in the 70's and 80's seemed to be wiped off .

????
Even Elon Musk in SpaceX have been funded for billions by U.S. Govt, his own funding was just few millions and even in that there probably were loans and grants mixed from other places/sources.

I do not want to take anything away from Mr. Musk but the truth is the truth.

I could go on and on but it will be simply repeating the obvious. U.S. does as it wants. Of course, the way it kills is professional, make the conditions such that the person has to commit suicide and then nobody can call it murder.

I would share one theory which does have some rational basis but nobody has even bothered to check and probably because finding and punishing those will be hard.

So you hate businesses and countries succeeding?
Few years ago, the 1% had shared into many publication/periodicals that it would be good to de-populate the planet a little bit. We do that and many of the climate change issues will no longer be so important. In fact, Uk did a wargame scenario of precisely that just few years ago and they called it 'Exercise Cygnus'.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... id-it-find

In how many other countries were any similar war games with similar scenarios war-gammed. Nobody has even bothered to check if something like this was done by other countries around the same time. If even a few countries did, it might show up a pattern which possibly may disturb the ones who are sleeping peacefully.

So are you saying you would support various countries release more coronavirus-like pathogen around.the world to improve the earth?
 
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STT757
Posts: 14573
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:41 am

 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:10 am

STT757 wrote:


Hardly. Like I said earlier in the thread science isn’t done in the opinion column section of a tabloid right wing paper. That’s where you publish something to influence political opinion.

If this was truly a significant breakthrough it would be published in peer reviewed scholarly article, instead this health industry CEO and physics (yes, physics) lecturer went to the New York Post.

Their central claim, that the virus has a genetic footprint that is unseen in naturally occurring viruses is just flat out incorrect:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6120304165

https://mobile.twitter.com/angie_rasmus ... 7910497283
(Molecular virologist)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 4ElSS1eulj

(And yes I’m aware I’ve just posted an opinion column from the Washington Post, but it’s one written by subject matter experts explaining their already published scientific research to a wider audience).
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:05 pm

WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Your grave error is to assume that the US allegation of controlled and concerted misdirection by the Chinese administration is true.


To loop this back to aviation, how would you explain Chinese internal control of movements in November and December while allowing international flights to continue into April 2020?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:10 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
c933103 wrote:


To loop this back to aviation, how would you explain Chinese internal control of movements in November and December while allowing international flights to continue into April 2020?


Economics.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:32 am

acecrackshot wrote:

To loop this back to aviation, how would you explain Chinese internal control of movements in November and December while allowing international flights to continue into April 2020?


Ahhhh the old “China banned domestic flights but allowed international flights out of Wuhan to deliberately spread the virus around the world” conspiracy theory......

.....that was totally debunked almost immediately as it appeared.

Truth is a blogger online misread flight schedule data. He thought that actual flights occurred out of Wuhan that were in fact stopovers that had their Wuhan leg cancelled, or codeshares that never departed, or they were empty re-positioning flights. Actual radar data showed no scheduled international passenger services out of Wuhan the same day domestic travel was stopped. This was acknowledged and corrected by the blogger that made that false claim, but Trump and right wing media had gotten hold of the theory and ran with it and it still persists to this day.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trump ... onspiracy/
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1365
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:32 am

Basically Trump was right. At the very least, this is a viable theory. It has gotta hurt to spend your life on science, get bullied into signing a conclusory statement that isn’t quite buttoned up, then having Trump’s scientific theory crush the conclusion you signed onto. It is one of those unforgettably shocking defeats. As an observer, I find it shocking.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:37 am

A professor of viral genomics, an evolutionary ecologist and 2 virologists quoted in an article in a conservative leaning UK paper state all the evidence points to a natural virus origin. Sorry to all the conspiracy theorists out there:


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ver-event/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:42 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Basically Trump was right. At the very least, this is a viable theory. It has gotta hurt to spend your life on science, get bullied into signing a conclusory statement that isn’t quite buttoned up, then having Trump’s scientific theory crush the conclusion you signed onto. It is one of those unforgettably shocking defeats. As an observer, I find it shocking.


There are a lot of viable theories - as to this one in particular being viable, even if so, that alone is hardly dispositive. What I find shocking is that anyone elevates a particular theory simply because Lord MAGA advocated it.
 
wingman
Posts: 4193
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Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:57 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Basically Trump was right. At the very least, this is a viable theory. It has gotta hurt to spend your life on science, get bullied into signing a conclusory statement that isn’t quite buttoned up, then having Trump’s scientific theory crush the conclusion you signed onto. It is one of those unforgettably shocking defeats. As an observer, I find it shocking.


Trump didn't have a scientific theory. He had a belief that science was false, that scientific study has zero value to humanity and that scientists are generally left-leaning fear mongering idiots. He frothed utter garbage from his pie hole for 4 years straight and turned out to just maybe saying something halfway accurate once in 1000 utterings. If my life depended on listening to Trump or the scientific community I would listen to science every single time. There is nothing shocking or embarrassing about anyone dispelling anything that has ever come out of a Trump mouth. You'd be right to 99.997% of the time. That's a scientific fact.
 
wingman
Posts: 4193
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:04 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
A professor of viral genomics, an evolutionary ecologist and 2 virologists quoted in an article in a conservative leaning UK paper state all the evidence points to a natural virus origin. Sorry to all the conspiracy theorists out there:


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... ver-event/


And yet none of these people are able to dismiss the idea that the jump happened naturally inside of the lab. A lot of animals were inside the lab being tested and China refuses to submit any paperwork related to this famous lady virus researcher. They had bats inside the lab and they had humans inside the lab and they were apparently researching exactly this type of virus. What is China hiding?
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: China and biological warfare story

Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:57 pm

wingman wrote:

And yet none of these people are able to dismiss the idea that the jump happened naturally inside of the lab.


They’re not talking about because statistically the probability is so low it’s now worth talking about it, despite what some sections of the media are now fantasising about. 1-7 million people per year are infected with viruses form animals due natural spillover. Just like how every previous pandemic came from a virus that naturally spilled from animals to humans. The chance that this came from one leak from a lab is therefore 1 in 1-7 million.

Scientists aren’t like crooked police, they aren’t going to decide that China is the culprit then only look for evidence that backs up their theory or obsess about them non stop. They are concentrating on looking in the natural environment in places like caves because it’s the emits likely source.

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