luckyone wrote:

readytotaxi wrote:

Aesma wrote:

You have to admit COVID-19 is absolutely useless as a weapon. Young people (hint : soldiers) are the least affected by it !

I think there is an arguement for COVID-19 as an economic weapon, it ties up so much manpower and resources and impacts public morale.

I think that's a rather tenuous argument because once the genie is out of the bottle they had no medical methods of managing it any better than anybody else, and the data surrounding their vaccines is not earth shattering. They took an economic hit last year too. What the Chinese do have is an authoritarian central government that provided them the ability to seriously lock down and they implemented quarantine protocols that are not feasible in Western societies that had the potential to snuff out transmission much faster.

And Xi believe authoritarianism is China's advantage over Western countries democratic system. So something like this that can showcase the strength of authoritarianism fit what he want. It also help establish doubt against democratic system in Western countries.
https://qz.com/1225347/xi-jinping-says- ... the-world/

About the vaccines done by the Chinese, Priyanka Pulla shared the following -

https://www.livemint.com/science/news/h ... 60541.html (this is insanely good and insanely long read. )

As far as China is concerned there is also a read about how they did put untested vaccines on their public, which is also happening in India, which probably doesn't happen in Western Societies as well -

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/26/busi ... ccine.html

She did link that both Russia and China, the way they want about the vaccines were also controversial as they pushed without trial 3 data. That is around 2/3rd of the article.

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Well, even St. Fauci is coming around on this being a Chinese lab accident...

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/26/chin ... index.html

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

"No evidence" being broadcasted as message of "It wouldn't be" is a problem in translating scientific wordings to mass media, but then many times "no evidence" is also the wording being used to deny possibility of something

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

"No evidence" being broadcasted as message of "It wouldn't be" is a problem in translating scientific wordings to mass media, but then many times "no evidence" is also the wording being used to deny possibility of something

Scientific illiteracy among the media is probably a bigger problem than the wording used by scientists themselves.

luckyone wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

"No evidence" being broadcasted as message of "It wouldn't be" is a problem in translating scientific wordings to mass media, but then many times "no evidence" is also the wording being used to deny possibility of something

Scientific illiteracy among the media is probably a bigger problem than the wording used by scientists themselves.

Perhaps the lesson to be learned here was one most of us learned in pre school from The Boy Who Cried Wolf, or the old adage of a blind squirrel and acorns should this turn out to be a lab accident. It’s not like anybody pointed it out or anything, but Trump’s habit of constantly running his mouth and inconsistent messaging cost his credibility when it may have absolutely mattered most. He had a chance to handle COVID well, and he out and out blew it on the front end in spite of his administration doing some things well on the back end. But he just could not keep his mouth shut and had to act like he was the final word in all matters. He’s no different from any other politician in that regard—what propelled him to success was also ultimately his biggest weakness.

I don't think you can count this on Trump when Trump didn't even really speak that much about whether the virus is not from natural source or what, compares to other sources that have been published on the matter

luckyone wrote:

c933103 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Perhaps the lesson to be learned here was one most of us learned in pre school from The Boy Who Cried Wolf, or the old adage of a blind squirrel and acorns should this turn out to be a lab accident. It’s not like anybody pointed it out or anything, but Trump’s habit of constantly running his mouth and inconsistent messaging cost his credibility when it may have absolutely mattered most. He had a chance to handle COVID well, and he out and out blew it on the front end in spite of his administration doing some things well on the back end. But he just could not keep his mouth shut and had to act like he was the final word in all matters. He’s no different from any other politician in that regard—what propelled him to success was also ultimately his biggest weakness.

I don't think you can count this on Trump when Trump didn't even really speak that much about whether the virus is not from natural source or what, compares to other sources that have been published on the matter

Regardless of specific source, Trump’s rhetoric regarding the Chinese origin of SARS-CoV2 left little to the imagination as to the point he was suggesting.

Is there anyone who disagree with the virus being originated from China?
Are those people also going to disagree with 1+1=2 if Trump said 1+1=2?

c933103 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

c933103 wrote:

I don't think you can count this on Trump when Trump didn't even really speak that much about whether the virus is not from natural source or what, compares to other sources that have been published on the matter

Regardless of specific source, Trump’s rhetoric regarding the Chinese origin of SARS-CoV2 left little to the imagination as to the point he was suggesting.

Is there anyone who disagree with the virus being originated from China?
Are those people also going to disagree with 1+1=2 if Trump said 1+1=2?

No, the issue is credibility. Usually POTUS speaks for the government based on expert counsel and advice - on this topic and others, the opinions were coming from his favorite TV shows instead.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Regardless of specific source, Trump’s rhetoric regarding the Chinese origin of SARS-CoV2 left little to the imagination as to the point he was suggesting.

Is there anyone who disagree with the virus being originated from China?
Are those people also going to disagree with 1+1=2 if Trump said 1+1=2?

No, the issue is credibility. Usually POTUS speaks for the government based on expert counsel and advice - on this topic and others, the opinions were coming from his favorite TV shows instead.

My chain of thought is,
- I didn't recall Trump spending too much of time on saying the virus got leaked from Chinese lab, there are other more major proponents of such theory, that the credibility of Trump shouldn't made much difference since he isn't the one presenting the puzzles and information
- Then the other user claim Trump matters because Trump keep the virus coming from China
- But the virus coming from China isn't really something being disagreed?

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Is there anyone who disagree with the virus being originated from China?
Are those people also going to disagree with 1+1=2 if Trump said 1+1=2?

No, the issue is credibility. Usually POTUS speaks for the government based on expert counsel and advice - on this topic and others, the opinions were coming from his favorite TV shows instead.

My chain of thought is,
- I didn't recall Trump spending too much of time on saying the virus got leaked from Chinese lab, there are other more major proponents of such theory, that the credibility of Trump shouldn't made much difference since he isn't the one presenting the puzzles and information
- Then the other user claim Trump matters because Trump keep the virus coming from China
- But the virus coming from China isn't really something being disagreed?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098

At any rate, POTUS is the chief mouthpiece for the US government - whether aware of its total activities or not. This is why the position requires being careful with words, and he was not. That was a major credibility issue, no matter who may have been talking about COVID origins in the US government or not.

Some things to remember are:

-If a lab were involved (say Wuhan Virology Institute), they could have gotten the SARS-Cov-2 virus from nature. People are speculating about that cave in southern China. Just because it possibly came from a lab does not mean it came from nature first. People are still confused about ebolavirus-Reston, and why it did not infect humans.

-Bio-engineering a virus like this is very, very unlikely. It is not impossible, but no one has specifically detected or observed in literature artificial bio-engineering of viruses to this degree. It would present a world of headache. See Fmr. Gen. Ken Alibek's claims of the Soviet Union bio-engineering ebolavirus & marburg with smallpox at Vektor.

Personally I think it's totally possible it escaped from the lab, but indeed it was most likely simply sampled in nature by the scientists there, not made in the lab. We know they weren't really following best practices (partly because they refused the training that was supposed to happen from France, who helped China set up the lab).

Sadly, we may never figure out or know the truth of the source of Covid-19 but for sure it has created massive international numbers of hospitalizations, deaths, economic hardship and ruin, social and political upheaval we have not seen since WW II. It is human nature to want to find simple explanations for complex events, find someone or place to blame, in this case China due to long held political beliefs, especially in the USA.

Those who supported Trump are using the possible scenarios that China has covered up research, there was a leak of the virus from the Wuhan lab, China was trying to 'weaponize' it to hurt the world for their benefit, to absolve Trump of his horrible initial handling of it and hurt Democrats. Sadly the worst damage from Covid-19 will be a collapse of trust in science, another 'cold war' of hostility worldwide, serious damage to social and political order in the USA and elsewhere.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

No, the issue is credibility. Usually POTUS speaks for the government based on expert counsel and advice - on this topic and others, the opinions were coming from his favorite TV shows instead.

My chain of thought is,
- I didn't recall Trump spending too much of time on saying the virus got leaked from Chinese lab, there are other more major proponents of such theory, that the credibility of Trump shouldn't made much difference since he isn't the one presenting the puzzles and information
- Then the other user claim Trump matters because Trump keep the virus coming from China
- But the virus coming from China isn't really something being disagreed?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098

At any rate, POTUS is the chief mouthpiece for the US government - whether aware of its total activities or not. This is why the position requires being careful with words, and he was not. That was a major credibility issue, no matter who may have been talking about COVID origins in the US government or not.

Thing is there are a number of others other than the government of the United States around the world talking about it too according to my understanding?

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

My chain of thought is,
- I didn't recall Trump spending too much of time on saying the virus got leaked from Chinese lab, there are other more major proponents of such theory, that the credibility of Trump shouldn't made much difference since he isn't the one presenting the puzzles and information
- Then the other user claim Trump matters because Trump keep the virus coming from China
- But the virus coming from China isn't really something being disagreed?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098

At any rate, POTUS is the chief mouthpiece for the US government - whether aware of its total activities or not. This is why the position requires being careful with words, and he was not. That was a major credibility issue, no matter who may have been talking about COVID origins in the US government or not.

Thing is there are a number of others other than the government of the United States around the world talking about it too according to my understanding?

You replied to a post about POTUS crying wolf to the US public, so that was the context - not the rest of the world.

Aaron747 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098

At any rate, POTUS is the chief mouthpiece for the US government - whether aware of its total activities or not. This is why the position requires being careful with words, and he was not. That was a major credibility issue, no matter who may have been talking about COVID origins in the US government or not.

Thing is there are a number of others other than the government of the United States around the world talking about it too according to my understanding?

You replied to a post about POTUS crying wolf to the US public, so that was the context - not the rest of the world.

My question is why "PORUS crying wolf" or anything he said would cause other similar from around the world being ignored. That seems like influencers are intentionally ignoring anything happening outside the US.

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Do you guys even read linked sources? He didn't say he believes that's the case - he expressed the scientifically valid opinion that based on reported information, it's a possibility. Saying something might warrant further investigation does not imply causation. Very odd logic used by some.

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

Call it an evolution in his thinking, call it a change, call it a flip flop, I don’t care - the fact of the matter is he’d all but ruled it out before and now, within the past few weeks, he’s not only pivoting to acknowledge a leak is a possible source, but he’s no longer convinced it was a natural development.

Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

https://www.newsweek.com/what-fauci-sai ... ow-1595346

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-virus- ... 1622066808

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

Call it an evolution in his thinking, call it a change, call it a flip flop, I don’t care - the fact of the matter is he’d all but ruled it out before and now, within the past few weeks, he’s not only pivoting to acknowledge a leak is a possible source, but he’s no longer convinced it was a natural development.

Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

https://www.newsweek.com/what-fauci-sai ... ow-1595346

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-virus- ... 1622066808

How do you get flip flop ? He is stating that he isn't convinced and wants more info. The evidence he had at the start leans toward not being artificially or deliberately manipulated. But being "not convinced" is not much of a change without more evidence from China.

Fauci said a deeper investigation into the origin of COVID-19 is needed, according to CNN.

“Certainly, the people who investigated it say it likely was the emergence from an animal reservoir that then infected individuals, but it could have been something else, and we need to find that out. So, you know, that’s the reason why I said I’m perfectly in favor of any investigation that looks into the origin of the virus,” Fauci added, according to Fox News.
RELATED

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... s-dr-fauci

EA CO AS wrote:

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

So, based on the evidence available, he erred strongly on the side of COVID-19 being of natural origin. Seems reasonable.

EA CO AS wrote:

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

So, instead of holding to an opinion based on incomplete evidence, he would like to reconsider his position when complete evidence is made available (exactly what happened). Seems reasonable.

What's the problem here?

art wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

So, based on the evidence available, he erred strongly on the side of COVID-19 being of natural origin. Seems reasonable.

EA CO AS wrote:

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

So, instead of holding to an opinion based on incomplete evidence, he would like to reconsider his position when complete evidence is made available (exactly what happened). Seems reasonable.

What's the problem here?

As have been discussed before, problem is incomplete evidence doesn't mean something being impossible, but many influencers, media, platforms, and ordinary individuals, are treating them as is. The different between the two was also not being communicated clearly.

EA CO AS wrote:

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

Call it an evolution in his thinking, call it a change, call it a flip flop, I don’t care - the fact of the matter is he’d all but ruled it out before and now, within the past few weeks, he’s not only pivoting to acknowledge a leak is a possible source, but he’s no longer convinced it was a natural development.

Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

https://www.newsweek.com/what-fauci-sai ... ow-1595346

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-virus- ... 1622066808

Scientists change their beliefs based on new possibilities, facts and evidence all the time. I would contrast this with 53% of Republicans that stand tall on the bullshit claim of a stolen election despite being presented with new evidence and facts on a widely repeated basis. Fauci, in comparison, is the height of logical reasoning, intelligence and honesty. It's not a stretch to understand why so many dismissed Trump's early comments about the Wuhan Lab because in those very same idiotic comments he was talking about shit like Kung Flu and how it would all just go away if people didn't wear masks. It's not easy to pick out a rare comment with some potential from a sea of utter garbage.

Some scientific articles containing science that debunk the lab leak theory, or at least showing it’s highly unlikely compared to a natural occurance:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoNscience/s ... 1651742724

https://massivesci.com/articles/sars-co ... ypothesis/

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/91932

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Oh stop it, you know perfectly well that moving away from the previous position of "NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE" to acknowledging that it's a possibility is a BIG deal. "Coming around on this" is perfectly valid language to convey that.

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

Call it an evolution in his thinking, call it a change, call it a flip flop, I don’t care - the fact of the matter is he’d all but ruled it out before and now, within the past few weeks, he’s not only pivoting to acknowledge a leak is a possible source, but he’s no longer convinced it was a natural development.

Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

https://www.newsweek.com/what-fauci-sai ... ow-1595346

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-virus- ... 1622066808

Inferred condescension is also an emotional invective. I’m not the one choosing to be emotional about Fauci. All I stated was an objective look at his position then and now clearly shows he has seen new data and his position has therefore changed. That’s a normal day for a career scientific researcher. Probably a good idea not to get your science analysis from media talking heads.

There is also something to be said for looking into something you are 95% sure is not the case to see if you can push that to 100% sure.
Fauci specifically said "I’m perfectly in favor of any investigation that looks into the origin of the virus"
That includes ruling out potential origins.
It doesn't mean he's going back on his word. Clearly with the vaccine roll-out in full swing, he has a bit more time to step back and take stock of the situation. 6 months to a year ago, the origin made no difference since people were dying by the hundreds of thousands! Now that things are more under control, we are shifting to "Ok, lets learn ALL we can from this so we can apply the lessons for next time"

meecrob wrote:

There is also something to be said for looking into something you are 95% sure is not the case to see if you can push that to 100% sure.
Fauci specifically said "I’m perfectly in favor of any investigation that looks into the origin of the virus"
That includes ruling out potential origins.
It doesn't mean he's going back on his word. Clearly with the vaccine roll-out in full swing, he has a bit more time to step back and take stock of the situation. 6 months to a year ago, the origin made no difference since people were dying by the hundreds of thousands! Now that things are more under control, we are shifting to "Ok, lets learn ALL we can from this so we can apply the lessons for next time"

Yes, that too. People are making a lot of hay out of things that are not unusual in professional public health circles. But as our friend from Taiwan suggested, poor communication over the last year is partly to blame for how its being taken.

An in depth look at the issues around the virus, the lab and the more accepted theory;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktSL5kL3ZI

One take away I learned, of the 260 known human virus's two thirds have originated from a species jump.
As for China being seen as less than co-operative, that's how the PRC roll, with everything.
So will raise suspicion.

Then there’s this. Not saying I believe it or disbelieve, but simply arguing as Dr. Fauci has that we cannot yet rule things in or out and far more transparency is needed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... laims.html

EA CO AS wrote:

Then there’s this. Not saying I believe it or disbelieve, but simply arguing as Dr. Fauci has that we cannot yet rule things in or out and far more transparency is needed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... laims.html

Their findings will be peer reviewed, and substantiated or disproven through further inquiry, just like any other paper that gets published. Science is about solving puzzles, not making the jigsaw pieces.

EA CO AS wrote:

Then there’s this. Not saying I believe it or disbelieve, but simply arguing as Dr. Fauci has that we cannot yet rule things in or out and far more transparency is needed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... laims.html

1. The "study" was exclusively leaked to......the Daily Mail. That should be enough to prove that it's bonkers. If it was truly showing the virus came from a laboratory then it would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries of the century, and would definitely be published pre print in a reputable scientific journal. Instead it was leaked to the Daily Mail.........
2. The UK doctor attached to the report is a former UKIP candidate with far right political views.
3. The study, which they claim is a "breaking new exclusive" was actually written in.....June last year and was openly published.
4. The study actually doesn't say the virus has hallmarks of being man made, as the "evidence" of what they claim makes it lab made actually happens in nature too: https://fullfact.org/health/richard-dea ... us-claims/
5. I can't see any discussion about this in any reputable scientific publication, only tabloid news like the Daily Mail and conspiracy theorist websites like Zero Hedge.

All it is is the Daily Mail cashing in on the latest "it's all China's fault" media hype.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Then there’s this. Not saying I believe it or disbelieve, but simply arguing as Dr. Fauci has that we cannot yet rule things in or out and far more transparency is needed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... laims.html

1. The "study" was exclusively leaked to......the Daily Mail. That should be enough to prove that it's bonkers. If it was truly showing the virus came from a laboratory then it would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries of the century, and would definitely be published pre print in a reputable scientific journal. Instead it was leaked to the Daily Mail.........
2. The UK doctor attached to the report is a former UKIP candidate with far right political views.
3. The study, which they claim is a "breaking new exclusive" was actually written in.....June last year and was openly published.
4. The study actually doesn't say the virus has hallmarks of being man made, as the "evidence" of what they claim makes it lab made actually happens in nature too: https://fullfact.org/health/richard-dea ... us-claims/
5. I can't see any discussion about this in any reputable scientific publication, only tabloid news like the Daily Mail and conspiracy theorist websites like Zero Hedge.

All it is is the Daily Mail cashing in on the latest "it's all China's fault" media hype.

Yes! This. And put in a logical manner that anyone with is familiar with the UK Tabloid press and the Daily Mail in particular will recognise.
And without the violent expletives I would have used in talking about the Mail.
It's fake news and in their own line edition, an unhealthy obsession with female celebs including near upskirt pics and those approaching or just past 'the legal age'.

You in the States have Fox News, their even more wackjob/racist spin offs, our own boil on our national media backside are the tabloids.

GDB wrote:

Yes! This. And put in a logical manner that anyone with is familiar with the UK Tabloid press and the Daily Mail in particular will recognise.
And without the violent expletives I would have used in talking about the Mail.
It's fake news and in their own line edition, an unhealthy obsession with female celebs including near upskirt pics and those approaching or just past 'the legal age'.

You in the States have Fox News, their even more wackjob/racist spin offs, our own boil on our national media backside are the tabloids.

Although being printed in the Daily Mail exclusively is enough to show a report is bonkers, the main reason is that actual scientists who work in the field aren't agreeing with these theories.

The basic science they're using is either wrong or actually doesn't prove it came from a lab (and I include accidental release from a lab as well designed virus because even an accidentally released virus would show evidence of having been in a scientific laboratory.)

I'll repost the links I posted earlier in this thread where scientists using actual science debunk these theories.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoNscience/s ... 1651742724

https://massivesci.com/articles/sars-co ... ypothesis/

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/91932

Yes, they're long and take time to read through but that's the nature of scientific evidence. It doesn't happen in a tabloid Daily Mail article with a few emotional words and lots of pictures dispersed amongst all the Celeb gossip stories. Are we really going to believe the exclusivity of this report when it's published on a website who's front page includes other stories like the latest gossip from reality TV show Love Island, Liam Gallagher's boozy birthday party and the Friends TV show reunion? (All those stories on the DM front page right now alongside this "bombshell" report).

People want someone to blame and the DM and other media have jumped on a well known target. Is it too hard to accept this virus jumped from animal to human like to between 1 and 7 million animal to human viral infections per year on average? This is a consequence of the ever increasing encroaching of humanity upon nature, and it's a lot more convenient for Western minds to assign blame to "evil Chinese Government scientists releasing this accidentally or deliberately from a lab", rather than make changes to our global society's ever increasing destruction of native wilderness displacing animals from their habitats and consumption of animal resources that is pushing our planet to the brink? In a way it's like climate change deniers looking for an excuse for blame increasing disasters on something else rather than acknowledge the true cause being ourselves:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... n-recovery

casinterest wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Nah you just don’t understand what it’s like to have science glasses on. He moved from ‘there is no data to support that theory’ to ‘now there may be some data to support that theory’. You’re injecting an emotional invective where there isn’t one.

How predictably condescending. Again, Dr. Fauci had previously stated “(the evidence) is very very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated,"

Now, he’s saying he was "not convinced" that COVID-19 had developed naturally, and that authorities needed to continue to find out "exactly what happened."

Call it an evolution in his thinking, call it a change, call it a flip flop, I don’t care - the fact of the matter is he’d all but ruled it out before and now, within the past few weeks, he’s not only pivoting to acknowledge a leak is a possible source, but he’s no longer convinced it was a natural development.

Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

https://www.newsweek.com/what-fauci-sai ... ow-1595346

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-virus- ... 1622066808

How do you get flip flop ? He is stating that he isn't convinced and wants more info. The evidence he had at the start leans toward not being artificially or deliberately manipulated. But being "not convinced" is not much of a change without more evidence from China.

It doesn't matter. Conservatives just want someone to blame. There isn't a hill small and dumb enough they won't die on, if it means shifting focus from the 600,000+ lives they could not have cared less about, and the Trump administration's total abdication of responsibility.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

People want someone to blame and the DM and other media have jumped on a well known target. Is it too hard to accept this virus jumped from animal to human like to between 1 and 7 million animal to human viral infections per year on average? This is a consequence of the ever increasing encroaching of humanity upon nature, and it's a lot more convenient for Western minds to assign blame to "evil Chinese Government scientists releasing this accidentally or deliberately from a lab", rather than make changes to our global society's ever increasing destruction of native wilderness displacing animals from their habitats and consumption of animal resources that is pushing our planet to the brink? In a way it's like climate change deniers looking for an excuse for blame increasing disasters on something else rather than acknowledge the true cause being ourselves:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... n-recovery

Exactly. It's never the underlying science of climate change, or the every day affects, but that one of the scientists drove an SUV one time and therefore it's all bunk.

Facebook will no longer ban posts that assert Covid-19 was man-made.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/2 ... ade-491053

"Facebook will no longer take down posts claiming that Covid-19 was man-made or manufactured, a company spokesperson told POLITICO on Wednesday, a move that acknowledges the renewed debate about the virus’ origins.

Facebook’s policy tweak arrives as support surges in Washington for a fuller investigation into the origins of Covid-19 after the Wall Street Journal reported that three scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized in late 2019 with symptoms consistent with the virus. The findings have reinvigorated the debate about the so-called Wuhan lab-leak theory, once dismissed as a fringe conspiracy theory."

mke717spotter wrote:

Facebook will no longer take down posts claiming that Covid-19 was man-made or manufactured, a company spokesperson told POLITICO on Wednesday, a move that acknowledges the renewed debate about the virus’ origins.

Zuckerberg isn’t a scientist but is in tune to US political thought and has been known to

after the Wall Street Journal reported that three scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized in late 2019 with symptoms consistent with the virus.

Incorrect and misleading. One, they had symptoms of any common respiratory illness like a cold or flu, not specifically Covid. Second, even though being “hospitalised” makes it sound as if it was serious the way healthcare works in China is people don’t really use doctor’s clinics if they have a cold or flu, they go to a hospital. It’s common and doesn’t indicate they had serious symptoms.

Still no hard scientific evidence it came from lab, accidentally or deliberately, and this “news” all coming from the US intelligence agencies, who brought you Iraq WMDs.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

mke717spotter wrote:

Facebook will no longer take down posts claiming that Covid-19 was man-made or manufactured, a company spokesperson told POLITICO on Wednesday, a move that acknowledges the renewed debate about the virus’ origins.

Zuckerberg isn’t a scientist but is in tune to US political thought and has been known to

after the Wall Street Journal reported that three scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were hospitalized in late 2019 with symptoms consistent with the virus.

Incorrect and misleading. One, they had symptoms of any common respiratory illness like a cold or flu, not specifically Covid. Second, even though being “hospitalised” makes it sound as if it was serious the way healthcare works in China is people don’t really use doctor’s clinics if they have a cold or flu, they go to a hospital. It’s common and doesn’t indicate they had serious symptoms.

Still no hard scientific evidence it came from lab, accidentally or deliberately, and this “news” all coming from the US intelligence agencies, who brought you Iraq WMDs.

With suspicion raised, it can only be addressed if China can show sufficient evidences to debunk them other than simply trying to claim it is usually this way or it is unlikely to be that way, which cannot fully convince people the situation is the other way round. And as China is actively rejecting international independent investigation, they will have to prove it themselves with their own authority, and I can only wish them good luck to have people listening to what they say with the secretiveness they operate even if they are really trying to tell the full picture of truth, under the big assumption that they will ever be allowed to do so, given that the delay in treating the pandemic in December and early January is already something the Chinese government want to rewrite the history to cover as much as possible. In such condition I cannot imagine how they will be able to credibly deny suspicion.

Here’s a tweet thread showing the inconsistencies and lack of solid statements in the WSJ “exclusive”.

https://mobile.twitter.com/pwnallthethi ... 4730833920

This addresses how the supposed “hard intelligence” actually isn’t, it’s just innuendo and rumour that can be debunked and how it probably came from US intelligence sources from the last days of the Trump admin or from leftovers from the Trump admin, who love to spread lies and have a well known anti-China bias with a desire to make China the enemy.

c933103 wrote:

With suspicion raised, it can only be addressed if China can show sufficient evidences to debunk them other than simply trying to claim it is usually this way or it is unlikely to be that way, which cannot fully convince people the situation is the other way round.

Anti-China types will never have enough evidence. There was a team of the world’s most prominent virologists who said China gave them the info they needed and they didn’t see any evidence for lab leak.

And as China is actively rejecting international independent investigation,

Who chooses who would be on this “independent” team. There’s one recognised global body for world health, the WHO. They sent their recognised best virologists to Wuhan. Any other group will not be as independent.

given that the delay in treating the pandemic in December and early January is already something the Chinese government want to rewrite the history to cover as much as possible.

Funny, I remember China locking Wuhan down after only a few hundred cases were confirmed. At the time anti-China critics said this was an example of China’s “brutal authoritarian government”. When the pandemic started hitting Western countries months later anti-China types were suddenly like “China should have locked down sooner!”. Hypocrits.

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare for the possibility of the pandemic reaching them. Most nations, America especially, failed to prepare. After hundreds of thousands of cases hit the US they still never went into full lockdown but still had the gall to criticise China for not going into lockdown when there were a dozen cases in Wuhan. Hypocrits. It’s all just a reason to blame China instead of admitting their own country’s response was inadequate.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

With suspicion raised, it can only be addressed if China can show sufficient evidences to debunk them other than simply trying to claim it is usually this way or it is unlikely to be that way, which cannot fully convince people the situation is the other way round.

Anti-China types will never have enough evidence. There was a team of the world’s most prominent virologists who said China gave them the info they needed and they didn’t see any evidence for lab leak.

maybe you should reread what they said and stop saying everyone in the world eho don't buy Chinese interpretation of situation as "Anti-China types"

And as China is actively rejecting international independent investigation,

Who chooses who would be on this “independent” team. There’s one recognised global body for world health, the WHO. They sent their recognised best virologists to Wuhan. Any other group will not be as independent.

Hahaha WHO investigation team being independent

given that the delay in treating the pandemic in December and early January is already something the Chinese government want to rewrite the history to cover as much as possible.

Funny, I remember China locking Wuhan down after only a few hundred cases were confirmed. At the time anti-China critics said this was an example of China’s “brutal authoritarian government”. When the pandemic started hitting Western countries months later anti-China types were suddenly like “China should have locked down sooner!”. Hypocrits.

LOL
If when China performed lockdown, there were really onlt a few hundred cases, then the brutal authoritarian government criticism is absolutely correct.
Since there were obviously more cases, it make sense to criticize the Chinese government reaction speed
Even if they can fool foreign observers they won't be able to fool the Chinese public.

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare for the possibility of the pandemic reaching them. Most nations, America especially, failed to prepare. After hundreds of thousands of cases hit the US they still never went into full lockdown but still had the gall to criticise China for not going into lockdown when there were a dozen cases in Wuhan. Hypocrits. It’s all just a reason to blame China instead of admitting their own country’s response was inadequate.

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare with false information on method and speed of the pandemic transmission, false information on effect and consequences of different pandemic prevention measures, false curve of infection case increase speed, false information on extent of the virus have been spreading insidr and thus the potential risk to outside of the country.
And you dare to claim the West failed to prepare after observing all these fake information delivered by the Chinese government to the world? And call other Hypocrits? Ha

c933103 wrote:

Hahaha WHO investigation team being independent

The WHO is the world’s pre eminent health body, and the team included some of the world’s top virologists. Who do you propose be put on an “independent” body? I hope you don’t say the “scientists” from the Daily Mail article.

LOL
If when China performed lockdown, there were really onlt a few hundred cases, then the brutal authoritarian government criticism is absolutely correct.
Since there were obviously more cases, it make sense to criticize the Chinese government reaction speed
Even if they can fool foreign observers they won't be able to fool the Chinese public.

Chinese people are quite happy with their government’s pandemic response:

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/comme ... e-covid-19

In fact most of the world I thinks China did a better job than the US on pandemic response:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23M1LE

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare with false information on method and speed of the pandemic transmission, false information on effect and consequences of different pandemic prevention measures, false curve of infection case increase speed, false information on extent of the virus have been spreading insidr and thus the potential risk to outside of the country.

Actually scientists praised China for accurately sequencing the DNA sequence of the virus and sharing it with the world very early on in the crisis:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01 ... a-outbreak

Do you have any verified information from a credible source that China deliberately passed false info about virus R0 or transmission speed or the effectiveness of lockdowns to the West? If so post it here please.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Hahaha WHO investigation team being independent

The WHO is the world’s pre eminent health body, and the team included some of the world’s top virologists. Who do you propose be put on an “independent” body? I hope you don’t say the “scientists” from the Daily Mail article.

Decisions in WHO are obviously manipulated by China and exampled by its exclusion of Taiwan

LOL
If when China performed lockdown, there were really onlt a few hundred cases, then the brutal authoritarian government criticism is absolutely correct.
Since there were obviously more cases, it make sense to criticize the Chinese government reaction speed
Even if they can fool foreign observers they won't be able to fool the Chinese public.

Chinese people are quite happy with their government’s pandemic response:

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/comme ... e-covid-19

Under the premise of nationalism, it is unlikely for Chinese citizens to reveal their true feeling to foreign survey conductors.

In fact most of the world I thinks China did a better job than the US on pandemic response:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23M1LE

Haven't you saw the report that Chinese government is now influencing worldwide report on China positively through the pandemic? No doubt that is paying off

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare with false information on method and speed of the pandemic transmission, false information on effect and consequences of different pandemic prevention measures, false curve of infection case increase speed, false information on extent of the virus have been spreading insidr and thus the potential risk to outside of the country.

Actually scientists praised China for accurately sequencing the DNA sequence of the virus and sharing it with the world very early on in the crisis:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01 ... a-outbreak

And you isn't going to mention the lab releasing the DNA sequence did so defying government order and was forced to shut down after releasing such DNA sequence?

Do you have any verified information from a credible source that China deliberately passed false info about virus R0 or transmission speed or the effectiveness of lockdowns to the West? If so post it here please.

Read any Chinese media official reports from January to February 2020 and you'll see it.

I can't believe people are still at it. Out of 200 nations that WTO recognizes and all the nations are hit, and big countries and small. I hardly see China doing something like this in any way. Aaand this whole idea that it is China and Chinese Govt. responsibility is an attempt to deflect responsibility from countries who didn't take it seriously in the first place. My own country, India and our PM Mr. Modi made same/similar statements to Mr. Trump even when the Opposition leader. Mr. Rahul Gandhi was sharing it is much more deadlier which GOI claimed as fear-mongering -

https://twitter.com/65thakursahab/statu ... 0450442241

This is when Italy had started to dump bodies in graveyard one after other as their health systems had collapsed.
Interestingly, apparently UK had done wargaming for similar scenaios and had found that their health systems would also collapse but didn't do anything to make it better.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... id-it-find

If one really wants to introspect, then the introspection should start at how the country's own health systems are and what can be done to improve those systems. Assigning blame to any other country is not going to solve the problem.

A parallel example is of an attack that is known that happened on American soil. The cyber attack which happened on an oil pipeline. Now whether Russia did or China did, is that going to make any difference. What would make a difference is America putting resources both in pre-empting such attacks and also having more of a reaction speed. These are things which are under American control for sure.

As far as Trump is concerned, this also tells its own tales -

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... defund-cd/

My own view is very simple, all the countries concerned need to take lessons from this and have federated as well as good science emerge. Have more virology labs in various states and give them power. Also consider embracing Open Source pharma. Also designing medical systems which cater to vulnerable groups, marginalized groups. Somebody did share the rural/urban divide. That same thing is happening in my own country. There is literally no medical systems in most villages in my country, other than a quack doctor or general practitioner (at the best of times) and a dispensary at the most. Again, in India nobody gives a shit right now, if it had been say 3 years from now on, hospitals would be made on super-quick feet as the present ruling party would want to win again in elections.

The patents to vaccines are not going to help anyone either in the short-term or long-term, till we are not all vaccinated, none of us are safe. I also saw the complete silence on the various mutations that the virus has gone through. And each time it mutates, it is going to be harder and harder for the same vaccines to work and give relief. This again does not serve any Chinese ends as they too can be easily infected. -

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2241 ... strazeneca

sierrakilo44 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Hahaha WHO investigation team being independent

The WHO is the world’s pre eminent health body, and the team included some of the world’s top virologists. Who do you propose be put on an “independent” body? I hope you don’t say the “scientists” from the Daily Mail article.

LOL
If when China performed lockdown, there were really onlt a few hundred cases, then the brutal authoritarian government criticism is absolutely correct.
Since there were obviously more cases, it make sense to criticize the Chinese government reaction speed
Even if they can fool foreign observers they won't be able to fool the Chinese public.

Chinese people are quite happy with their government’s pandemic response:

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/comme ... e-covid-19

In fact most of the world I thinks China did a better job than the US on pandemic response:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN23M1LE

China gave the West 6 weeks to prepare with false information on method and speed of the pandemic transmission, false information on effect and consequences of different pandemic prevention measures, false curve of infection case increase speed, false information on extent of the virus have been spreading insidr and thus the potential risk to outside of the country.

Actually scientists praised China for accurately sequencing the DNA sequence of the virus and sharing it with the world very early on in the crisis:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01 ... a-outbreak

Do you have any verified information from a credible source that China deliberately passed false info about virus R0 or transmission speed or the effectiveness of lockdowns to the West? If so post it here please.

Just the way the Chinese deflected attention away from that lab including when the WHO came in to do their sham investigation they were allowed to go anywhere except the Wuhan lab. I said right from the start that this came out of this lab. I never thought it was engineered as a bio weapon I thought more like a research experiment gone bad or like what probably happened a worker got sick and then left the lab and exposed others. But not only Trumps attitude but the liberals and the Democrats and the media would never even entertain that this could have possibly came out of that lab especially if Trump said it. The liberals wanted the anger to be focused on Trump and not China where the anger needed to be directed at. As the days go on there will be more evidence it came out of that lab but so much time has gone by and China certainly isn't going to entertain any investigation. That right there proves their guilt to me.

An interesting documentary by Germany which tells what the core issues are -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5UPnuSTRjA

pune wrote:

I can't believe people are still at it. Out of 200 nations that WTO recognizes and all the nations are hit, and big countries and small. I hardly see China doing something like this in any way. Aaand this whole idea that it is China and Chinese Govt. responsibility is an attempt to deflect responsibility from countries who didn't take it seriously in the first place. My own country, India and our PM Mr. Modi made same/similar statements to Mr. Trump even when the Opposition leader. Mr. Rahul Gandhi was sharing it is much more deadlier which GOI claimed as fear-mongering -

https://twitter.com/65thakursahab/statu ... 0450442241

This is when Italy had started to dump bodies in graveyard one after other as their health systems had collapsed.
Interestingly, apparently UK had done wargaming for similar scenaios and had found that their health systems would also collapse but didn't do anything to make it better.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... id-it-find

If one really wants to introspect, then the introspection should start at how the country's own health systems are and what can be done to improve those systems. Assigning blame to any other country is not going to solve the problem.

Sorry I cannot follow your logic
You think you cannot believe the idea that the virus might came out of laboratory, because those countries handled the situation poorly?
Given that countries handling of their domestic outbreak situation neither precede the time virus start infecting human, nor is there any cause and effect relationship between countries handling of virus and the place where the virus start infecting human, how can you be sure about it is not the environment where it have occurred based on countries poor response to the pandemic?

A parallel example is of an attack that is known that happened on American soil. The cyber attack which happened on an oil pipeline. Now whether Russia did or China did, is that going to make any difference. What would make a difference is America putting resources both in pre-empting such attacks and also having more of a reaction speed. These are things which are under American control for sure.

The difference is that, if it is an act by another country, then it could be treat as an act of aggression, and thus national governments can response to them to hopefully stop the actors from taking advantage of it down into future.

As far as Trump is concerned, this also tells its own tales -

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... defund-cd/

How is it related to Trump?

My own view is very simple, all the countries concerned need to take lessons from this and have federated as well as good science emerge. Have more virology labs in various states and give them power. Also consider embracing Open Source pharma. Also designing medical systems which cater to vulnerable groups, marginalized groups. Somebody did share the rural/urban divide. That same thing is happening in my own country. There is literally no medical systems in most villages in my country, other than a quack doctor or general practitioner (at the best of times) and a dispensary at the most. Again, in India nobody gives a shit right now, if it had been say 3 years from now on, hospitals would be made on super-quick feet as the present ruling party would want to win again in elections.

Similar advise have been said times and times again to China from Avian flu to SARS to African Swine Flu to various other smaller outbreak of disease or symptoms caused by chemical or animal bound vectors or many other situations until the current pandemic but the Chinese government action and response in 2020 was even worse than 2003 in informing and revealing information it have on pandemic or even the admitting and acknowledging the existence of the virus itself or its transmission property until it was late in the January. Their wrongdoing in such handling at such stage can be established no matter the virus come from natural environment or not, and there are also no way the mishandling of pandemic in other countries can "cancel out" Chinese government's mishandling since they adds on each other.

The patents to vaccines are not going to help anyone either in the short-term or long-term, till we are not all vaccinated, none of us are safe. I also saw the complete silence on the various mutations that the virus has gone through. And each time it mutates, it is going to be harder and harder for the same vaccines to work and give relief. This again does not serve any Chinese ends as they too can be easily infected. -

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2241 ... strazeneca

The patent of vaccine is a completely different topic from virus origin which I think is better for another thread, but I fail to see how patent waiver is going to give any short or long term help to anyone when pharmaceuticals are already securing production lines from across the globe for producing the vaccines.