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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 8:58 am

c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Hamas and the PA long ago abandoned the “two-state” solution—Every administration from Clinton to Obama considered the two-state solution as baseline requirement, the Palestinians have rejected it repeatedly. Trump went in another direction, admitting reality that Jerusalem was the capital, the rejectionist Palestinians weren’t agreeable to ANY solution and assisted in the Abraham Agreement. The Arabs have even given up on a two-state solution.

What’s Biden have to do with it? Hamas is finding out if they can get him to abandon the Israelis. They dont have a prayer without that division and the deep state Arabists in the Democratic Party are likely prove Hamas right.


Why does the US have to support Israel, it provides no benefit to them apart from GOP getting the fundamentalist pro Israel vote. The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel, all we need to do is enforce an embargo. If the US can embargo Cuba for no valid reason, slapping one on Israel is a no brainer.

The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel?


Did you not notice how few countries took the opportunity to move embassies to Jerusalem in 2018? Most have not come back since Israel's 1980 edict.
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c933103
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 10:23 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Why does the US have to support Israel, it provides no benefit to them apart from GOP getting the fundamentalist pro Israel vote. The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel, all we need to do is enforce an embargo. If the US can embargo Cuba for no valid reason, slapping one on Israel is a no brainer.

The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel?


Did you not notice how few countries took the opportunity to move embassies to Jerusalem in 2018? Most have not come back since Israel's 1980 edict.

The minimal number of countries followed US's move of embassy to Jerusalem, seems to represent the weight of US's option at the time being lacking more than countries' individual position on Israel
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 11:22 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel?


Did you not notice how few countries took the opportunity to move embassies to Jerusalem in 2018? Most have not come back since Israel's 1980 edict.

The minimal number of countries followed US's move of embassy to Jerusalem, seems to represent the weight of US's option at the time being lacking more than countries' individual position on Israel


Perhaps you also did not notice the results of UNSC resolution 2334 then, in 2016. The world has certainly taken note of Israel's continued violations of the Geneva convention.
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But Hamas didn't attack first though.

Anyone who has followed the violence in the ME between Israel and the Palestinians knows that this is irrelevant.
If the Israelis shoot a Palestinian, rockets will fly, if Palestinians fire a rocket, bombs will fall. As the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, we all know that if one side shoots the other will respond in kind.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 12:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Then please explain how Biden has anything to do with a Palestinian Election and an upcoming Israeli court case? Because Time Hacks make no sense in your partisan US government attacks on a foreign issue. Unless you want to admit that the Fraudster Trump and his SIL basically abandoned a two state solution.


Hamas and the PA long ago abandoned the “two-state” solution—Every administration from Clinton to Obama considered the two-state solution as baseline requirement, the Palestinians have rejected it repeatedly. Trump went in another direction, admitting reality that Jerusalem was the capital, the rejectionist Palestinians weren’t agreeable to ANY solution and assisted in the Abraham Agreement. The Arabs have even given up on a two-state solution.

What’s Biden have to do with it? Hamas is finding out if they can get him to abandon the Israelis. They dont have a prayer without that division and the deep state Arabists in the Democratic Party are likely prove Hamas right.


Why does the US have to support Israel, it provides no benefit to them apart from GOP getting the fundamentalist pro Israel vote. The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel, all we need to do is enforce an embargo. If the US can embargo Cuba for no valid reason, slapping one on Israel is a no brainer.



Israel is still a democracy, a flawed one, but still a democracy. The Palestinians for all their support around the world. are still like crack addicts when Iran , Hezbollah or Hamas want to pull the strings. This escalation will stop as soon as the Palestinians put pressure back on Hamas to end the rocket attacks. An embargo on Israel does no accomplish what everyone wants.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 1:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Hamas and the PA long ago abandoned the “two-state” solution—Every administration from Clinton to Obama considered the two-state solution as baseline requirement, the Palestinians have rejected it repeatedly. Trump went in another direction, admitting reality that Jerusalem was the capital, the rejectionist Palestinians weren’t agreeable to ANY solution and assisted in the Abraham Agreement. The Arabs have even given up on a two-state solution.

What’s Biden have to do with it? Hamas is finding out if they can get him to abandon the Israelis. They dont have a prayer without that division and the deep state Arabists in the Democratic Party are likely prove Hamas right.


Why does the US have to support Israel, it provides no benefit to them apart from GOP getting the fundamentalist pro Israel vote. The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel, all we need to do is enforce an embargo. If the US can embargo Cuba for no valid reason, slapping one on Israel is a no brainer.



Israel is still a democracy, a flawed one, but still a democracy. The Palestinians for all their support around the world. are still like crack addicts when Iran , Hezbollah or Hamas want to pull the strings. This escalation will stop as soon as the Palestinians put pressure back on Hamas to end the rocket attacks. An embargo on Israel does no accomplish what everyone wants.


An embargo on Israel puts them on notice. Israel is far from being even remotely self sufficient. Israel doesn't have anywhere near the resources South Africa had, .
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 1:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Why does the US have to support Israel, it provides no benefit to them apart from GOP getting the fundamentalist pro Israel vote. The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel, all we need to do is enforce an embargo. If the US can embargo Cuba for no valid reason, slapping one on Israel is a no brainer.



Israel is still a democracy, a flawed one, but still a democracy. The Palestinians for all their support around the world. are still like crack addicts when Iran , Hezbollah or Hamas want to pull the strings. This escalation will stop as soon as the Palestinians put pressure back on Hamas to end the rocket attacks. An embargo on Israel does no accomplish what everyone wants.


An embargo on Israel puts them on notice. Israel is far from being even remotely self sufficient. Israel doesn't have anywhere near the resources South Africa had, .


Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 1:44 pm

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Israel is still a democracy, a flawed one, but still a democracy. The Palestinians for all their support around the world. are still like crack addicts when Iran , Hezbollah or Hamas want to pull the strings. This escalation will stop as soon as the Palestinians put pressure back on Hamas to end the rocket attacks. An embargo on Israel does no accomplish what everyone wants.


An embargo on Israel puts them on notice. Israel is far from being even remotely self sufficient. Israel doesn't have anywhere near the resources South Africa had, .


Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


They'd 'need to defend themselves' a lot less if they became far more for the Palestinians than Hamas or Fatah could ever be. But no, their ruling coalition prefers flogging dead horses, endless UNSC violations, massive walls, and forced evictions. It's a tragedy for any young people on either side of the fence to have that for a future.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

An embargo on Israel puts them on notice. Israel is far from being even remotely self sufficient. Israel doesn't have anywhere near the resources South Africa had, .


Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


They'd 'need to defend themselves' a lot less if they became far more for the Palestinians than Hamas or Fatah could ever be. But no, their ruling coalition prefers flogging dead horses, endless UNSC violations, massive walls, and forced evictions. It's a tragedy for any young people on either side of the fence to have that for a future.


Israel's policies have their issues, but the Palestinians have not helped their cause by falling for Hamas' terrorist carrots that resulted in the walls and evections. There are many within Israel that are working to change things on the inside, but every time Hamas starts launching rockets, those voices are silenced for months.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 1:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


They'd 'need to defend themselves' a lot less if they became far more for the Palestinians than Hamas or Fatah could ever be. But no, their ruling coalition prefers flogging dead horses, endless UNSC violations, massive walls, and forced evictions. It's a tragedy for any young people on either side of the fence to have that for a future.


Israel's policies have their issues, but the Palestinians have not helped their cause by falling for Hamas' terrorist carrots that resulted in the walls and evections. There are many within Israel that are working to change things on the inside, but every time Hamas starts launching rockets, those voices are silenced for months.


Israel's policies have resulted in the poverty that encourages Palestinians to make terrible political decisions...when they even have a chance to vote. Where in the developing world do the poor make good leadership decisions? Its been awhile since I could name a place.

If Israel revamped hospitals/schools, invested in infrastructure, and rebuilt Gaza into the thriving seaport it should be - and ended the asinine settlements for the Orthodox bloc who don't work or pay taxes, you'd see Hamas's influence dwindle to nothing. The status quo is very good for both Likud and Hamas.
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Aesma
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 2:20 pm

Plenty of Americans on this site talk about the second amendment, the right to rebel against government, etc. But of course if they were living in Gaza they would want to be nice with Israel and sign deals ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:05 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Then please explain how Biden has anything to do with a Palestinian Election and an upcoming Israeli court case? Because Time Hacks make no sense in your partisan US government attacks on a foreign issue. Unless you want to admit that the Fraudster Trump and his SIL basically abandoned a two state solution.


Hamas and the PA long ago abandoned the “two-state” solution—Every administration from Clinton to Obama considered the two-state solution as baseline requirement, the Palestinians have rejected it repeatedly. Trump went in another direction, admitting reality that Jerusalem was the capital, the rejectionist Palestinians weren’t agreeable to ANY solution and assisted in the Abraham Agreement. The Arabs have even given up on a two-state solution.


So Trump and yourself are advocating racism and nationalism correct?

Yes. Always. No matter the question or situation. That's one of the few guiding principles of conservatism now.

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Going nowhere good - as predicted. More Israeli airstrikes on residential areas in Gaza, followed by rocket attacks on suburbs of TLV. Now Hamas saying further airstrikes will be met with more rockets. Israel just hit a large apartment building in Gaza. Around and around we go.



The airstrikes generally go for where the leadership is, and where the rockets were launched from. The rockets are mostly being taken out by The IDF. It does make one wonder how much Iran is pushing this latest unrest to prop up Hamas.


Then tit-for-tat gives them the unrest they want to see. Asinine.

Is that all they really want? They have less than a snowball chance's in hell of much else.

Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Arab countries recognized Israel. That was peace. In many ways still is as it ensures communication to end the current issues.

My whole life we waited for the Arab countries to recognize Israel. That finally happened. This open conflict during Covid-19 will only increase the misery.

I'll support democracy.

Lightsaber


Trump's Abraham accords were blown out of proportion. Only Bahrain, Sudan, UAE and Morocco normalised relations. Most of them had diplomatic contact well before Trump came to power, and they had also never fired a shot at each other or were threatening to go to war so the accords in no wat increased the level of peace. If anything it was more about Israelis and these Arab states being able to co-operate militarily against Iran so in the long run they'll probably decrease the chances of peace rather than increase it.

The vast majority of Arab and Islamic states still do not diplomatically recognise Israel and Trump's son in law's pathetic attempts did not change that.


Very accurate analysis. As many editorials from around the ME indicated, all the Abraham accord did was codify existing diplomatic contacts to enhance financial and strategic ties - most importantly, without upsetting home populations in the named countries too much. Any diplomacy is good, but the achievement narrative was OTT, basically a PR exercise by Kushner and the UAE’s bin Zahyed al Nahyan.

Paper over someone else's work, sell it as something revolutionary and new, and then watch it immediately collapse into sh!t? How unusual for Kushner/Trump

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The rest of the world is slowly turning against Israel?


Did you not notice how few countries took the opportunity to move embassies to Jerusalem in 2018? Most have not come back since Israel's 1980 edict.

The minimal number of countries followed US's move of embassy to Jerusalem, seems to represent the weight of US's option at the time being lacking more than countries' individual position on Israel

I think that ship sailed long ago. For better or worse, the US is unique in its unwavering support for Israel, largely due to evangelicals

Aesma wrote:
Plenty of Americans on this site talk about the second amendment, the right to rebel against government, etc. But of course if they were living in Gaza they would want to be nice with Israel and sign deals ?

I don't think those Americans even see those people as human to be honest.
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

They'd 'need to defend themselves' a lot less if they became far more for the Palestinians than Hamas or Fatah could ever be. But no, their ruling coalition prefers flogging dead horses, endless UNSC violations, massive walls, and forced evictions. It's a tragedy for any young people on either side of the fence to have that for a future.


Israel's policies have their issues, but the Palestinians have not helped their cause by falling for Hamas' terrorist carrots that resulted in the walls and evections. There are many within Israel that are working to change things on the inside, but every time Hamas starts launching rockets, those voices are silenced for months.


Israel's policies have resulted in the poverty that encourages Palestinians to make terrible political decisions...when they even have a chance to vote. Where in the developing world do the poor make good leadership decisions? Its been awhile since I could name a place.

If Israel revamped hospitals/schools, invested in infrastructure, and rebuilt Gaza into the thriving seaport it should be - and ended the asinine settlements for the Orthodox bloc who don't work or pay taxes, you'd see Hamas's influence dwindle to nothing. The status quo is very good for both Likud and Hamas.


Well let's be clear here. the Palestinians have owned this as well by continuing to launch rockets at Israel whenever they see fit. I am not going into my neighbor's yard, when they are throwing Molotov cocktails.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:19 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Israel's policies have their issues, but the Palestinians have not helped their cause by falling for Hamas' terrorist carrots that resulted in the walls and evections. There are many within Israel that are working to change things on the inside, but every time Hamas starts launching rockets, those voices are silenced for months.


Israel's policies have resulted in the poverty that encourages Palestinians to make terrible political decisions...when they even have a chance to vote. Where in the developing world do the poor make good leadership decisions? Its been awhile since I could name a place.

If Israel revamped hospitals/schools, invested in infrastructure, and rebuilt Gaza into the thriving seaport it should be - and ended the asinine settlements for the Orthodox bloc who don't work or pay taxes, you'd see Hamas's influence dwindle to nothing. The status quo is very good for both Likud and Hamas.


Well let's be clear here. the Palestinians have owned this as well by continuing to launch rockets at Israel whenever they see fit. I am not going into my neighbor's yard, when they are throwing Molotov cocktails.


Hamas, you mean. Not Palestinians as a bloc. That would be like lumping all Israelis in with the Orthodox extremists or crazy parties like Yisrael Beiteinu.

They are officially occupiers under the 4th Geneva convention, so they can do everything I mentioned - just a matter of logistics and getting money to the right local aid organizations.
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Aesma
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:30 pm

Of course the Evangelicals are raging antisemites that don't see Jews as humans either, just pigs to get slaughtered when the rapture happens...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Israel's policies have resulted in the poverty that encourages Palestinians to make terrible political decisions...when they even have a chance to vote. Where in the developing world do the poor make good leadership decisions? Its been awhile since I could name a place.

If Israel revamped hospitals/schools, invested in infrastructure, and rebuilt Gaza into the thriving seaport it should be - and ended the asinine settlements for the Orthodox bloc who don't work or pay taxes, you'd see Hamas's influence dwindle to nothing. The status quo is very good for both Likud and Hamas.


Well let's be clear here. the Palestinians have owned this as well by continuing to launch rockets at Israel whenever they see fit. I am not going into my neighbor's yard, when they are throwing Molotov cocktails.


Hamas, you mean. Not Palestinians as a bloc. That would be like lumping all Israelis in with the Orthodox extremists or crazy parties like Yisrael Beiteinu.

They are officially occupiers under the 4th Geneva convention, so they can do everything I mentioned - just a matter of logistics and getting money to the right local aid organizations.


To be fair here, the Palestinians are allowing Hamas to operate with pretty magnificent leeway. So far though Israel has worked hard to allow humanitarian aid through. The issue is that due to Hamas's influence many supplies are suppressed due to the propensity of war materials.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 3:53 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Well let's be clear here. the Palestinians have owned this as well by continuing to launch rockets at Israel whenever they see fit. I am not going into my neighbor's yard, when they are throwing Molotov cocktails.


Hamas, you mean. Not Palestinians as a bloc. That would be like lumping all Israelis in with the Orthodox extremists or crazy parties like Yisrael Beiteinu.

They are officially occupiers under the 4th Geneva convention, so they can do everything I mentioned - just a matter of logistics and getting money to the right local aid organizations.


To be fair here, the Palestinians are allowing Hamas to operate with pretty magnificent leeway. So far though Israel has worked hard to allow humanitarian aid through. The issue is that due to Hamas's influence many supplies are suppressed due to the propensity of war materials.


That's a bit of an oversimplification, considering the results so far of the Fatah/Hamas coalition and that no functional democracy exists. There is simply no choice but to follow along, if the man on the street knows what's good for him:

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2021/04/23/ha ... -pub-84383

Palestine is now an authoritarian regime, according to the Economist’s 2020 democracy index. Its score has declined year on year since 2006, when it was deemed a flawed democracy. Aside from the obvious lack of elections, the executive controls the judiciary, the president effectively suspended the parliament in 2007 and instead rules by decree, and Palestinian authorities have been cracking down on opposition and civil society....

...Some voices from Palestinian civil society say that no meaningful democracy is possible under occupation and that the international community should not push for elections. There are indeed serious limitations, but elections could provide some democratic rejuvenation and lay the groundwork for a national reconciliation process. Most importantly, the majority of Palestinians—76 percent of them, according to a March 2021 poll—want elections.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Israel is still a democracy, a flawed one, but still a democracy. The Palestinians for all their support around the world. are still like crack addicts when Iran , Hezbollah or Hamas want to pull the strings. This escalation will stop as soon as the Palestinians put pressure back on Hamas to end the rocket attacks. An embargo on Israel does no accomplish what everyone wants.


An embargo on Israel puts them on notice. Israel is far from being even remotely self sufficient. Israel doesn't have anywhere near the resources South Africa had, .


Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


Israeli is the primary oppressor and is an aggressive rogue regime which needs to be punished. The problem is the country who should be giving them a real slapping won't due to domestic politics.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:07 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Israel's policies have their issues, but the Palestinians have not helped their cause by falling for Hamas' terrorist carrots that resulted in the walls and evections. There are many within Israel that are working to change things on the inside, but every time Hamas starts launching rockets, those voices are silenced for months.


Israel's policies have resulted in the poverty that encourages Palestinians to make terrible political decisions...when they even have a chance to vote. Where in the developing world do the poor make good leadership decisions? Its been awhile since I could name a place.

If Israel revamped hospitals/schools, invested in infrastructure, and rebuilt Gaza into the thriving seaport it should be - and ended the asinine settlements for the Orthodox bloc who don't work or pay taxes, you'd see Hamas's influence dwindle to nothing. The status quo is very good for both Likud and Hamas.


Well let's be clear here. the Palestinians have owned this as well by continuing to launch rockets at Israel whenever they see fit. I am not going into my neighbor's yard, when they are throwing Molotov cocktails.


You probably would if your neighbour kept on steeling pieces of your yard and built accommodation for his children on your property, then walled it off and called it his. Then next year did the same, and every year after took a little more until he finally took the keys to your home and kicked you out onto the street.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:10 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Hamas, you mean. Not Palestinians as a bloc. That would be like lumping all Israelis in with the Orthodox extremists or crazy parties like Yisrael Beiteinu.

They are officially occupiers under the 4th Geneva convention, so they can do everything I mentioned - just a matter of logistics and getting money to the right local aid organizations.


To be fair here, the Palestinians are allowing Hamas to operate with pretty magnificent leeway. So far though Israel has worked hard to allow humanitarian aid through. The issue is that due to Hamas's influence many supplies are suppressed due to the propensity of war materials.


That's a bit of an oversimplification, considering the results so far of the Fatah/Hamas coalition and that no functional democracy exists. There is simply no choice but to follow along, if the man on the street knows what's good for him:

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2021/04/23/ha ... -pub-84383

Palestine is now an authoritarian regime, according to the Economist’s 2020 democracy index. Its score has declined year on year since 2006, when it was deemed a flawed democracy. Aside from the obvious lack of elections, the executive controls the judiciary, the president effectively suspended the parliament in 2007 and instead rules by decree, and Palestinian authorities have been cracking down on opposition and civil society....

...Some voices from Palestinian civil society say that no meaningful democracy is possible under occupation and that the international community should not push for elections. There are indeed serious limitations, but elections could provide some democratic rejuvenation and lay the groundwork for a national reconciliation process. Most importantly, the majority of Palestinians—76 percent of them, according to a March 2021 poll—want elections.


That's all well and good, but if you don't live in a functional democracy, are you going to welcome hamas, or the Israeli's ? The Palestinians have chosen Hamas time and time again.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:12 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

To be fair here, the Palestinians are allowing Hamas to operate with pretty magnificent leeway. So far though Israel has worked hard to allow humanitarian aid through. The issue is that due to Hamas's influence many supplies are suppressed due to the propensity of war materials.


That's a bit of an oversimplification, considering the results so far of the Fatah/Hamas coalition and that no functional democracy exists. There is simply no choice but to follow along, if the man on the street knows what's good for him:

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2021/04/23/ha ... -pub-84383

Palestine is now an authoritarian regime, according to the Economist’s 2020 democracy index. Its score has declined year on year since 2006, when it was deemed a flawed democracy. Aside from the obvious lack of elections, the executive controls the judiciary, the president effectively suspended the parliament in 2007 and instead rules by decree, and Palestinian authorities have been cracking down on opposition and civil society....

...Some voices from Palestinian civil society say that no meaningful democracy is possible under occupation and that the international community should not push for elections. There are indeed serious limitations, but elections could provide some democratic rejuvenation and lay the groundwork for a national reconciliation process. Most importantly, the majority of Palestinians—76 percent of them, according to a March 2021 poll—want elections.


That's all well and good, but if you don't live in a functional democracy, are you going to welcome hamas, or the Israeli's ? The Palestinians have chosen Hamas time and time again.


It’s not a matter of ‘welcoming’ anyone - it’s who keeps the lights on and keeps schools open for kids. That’s what poverty is like - you choose whatever provides the bare essentials. You’re making it sound like Gazans have tons of choices. There are slightly more choices in the WB, but again, your land can be snatched whenever, and by force.

Not sure you’re seeing the big picture of the power imbalance here.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed May 12, 2021 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reinhardt
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:13 pm

casinterest wrote:

Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


Stop illegally kicking people out of their own homes and land then. And none of this, they were not a people to begin with, or they are gods people. Jews were wrongly, badly perscuted for well, almost forever. But they are now doing to others what happened to them. I just don't get it.

No the palestinians don't help themselves, but how can they? If you' re a kid and your friend or parent is shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, or a tank plows through your neighbourhood or your home is taken over by another country..you going to grow up hating them. If you have no life chances, and you get told or paid by Hamas to fight you're going to do it. This is perpetual.
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That's a bit of an oversimplification, considering the results so far of the Fatah/Hamas coalition and that no functional democracy exists. There is simply no choice but to follow along, if the man on the street knows what's good for him:

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2021/04/23/ha ... -pub-84383

Palestine is now an authoritarian regime, according to the Economist’s 2020 democracy index. Its score has declined year on year since 2006, when it was deemed a flawed democracy. Aside from the obvious lack of elections, the executive controls the judiciary, the president effectively suspended the parliament in 2007 and instead rules by decree, and Palestinian authorities have been cracking down on opposition and civil society....

...Some voices from Palestinian civil society say that no meaningful democracy is possible under occupation and that the international community should not push for elections. There are indeed serious limitations, but elections could provide some democratic rejuvenation and lay the groundwork for a national reconciliation process. Most importantly, the majority of Palestinians—76 percent of them, according to a March 2021 poll—want elections.


That's all well and good, but if you don't live in a functional democracy, are you going to welcome hamas, or the Israeli's ? The Palestinians have chosen Hamas time and time again.


It’s not a matter of ‘welcoming’ anyone - it’s who keeps the lights on and keeps schools open for kids. That’s what poverty is like - you choose whatever provides the bare essentials. You’re making it sound like Gazans have tons of choices. There are slightly more choices in the WB, but again, your land can be snatched whenever, and by force.

Not sure you’re seeing the big picture of the power imbalance here.


I see the power imbalance, but much like the poverty imbalance you brought up earlier. The police can be called, but when the battered citizens avoid them and run to the gangs, no one wants to go in and fix it up when they don't see a hand on the other side helping.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:34 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

That's all well and good, but if you don't live in a functional democracy, are you going to welcome hamas, or the Israeli's ? The Palestinians have chosen Hamas time and time again.


It’s not a matter of ‘welcoming’ anyone - it’s who keeps the lights on and keeps schools open for kids. That’s what poverty is like - you choose whatever provides the bare essentials. You’re making it sound like Gazans have tons of choices. There are slightly more choices in the WB, but again, your land can be snatched whenever, and by force.

Not sure you’re seeing the big picture of the power imbalance here.


I see the power imbalance, but much like the poverty imbalance you brought up earlier. The police can be called, but when the battered citizens avoid them and run to the gangs, no one wants to go in and fix it up when they don't see a hand on the other side helping.


Irrelevant in consideration of Israel as an occupying power. The 4th Geneva convention prohibits allowing poverty-like conditions, requires occupying states to provide for education and welfare of all children in occupied territories, and forbids destruction of private property or forcible relocation of people except for military operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ge ... erritories

Israel is signatory to the above, as of 1951.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 4:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It’s not a matter of ‘welcoming’ anyone - it’s who keeps the lights on and keeps schools open for kids. That’s what poverty is like - you choose whatever provides the bare essentials. You’re making it sound like Gazans have tons of choices. There are slightly more choices in the WB, but again, your land can be snatched whenever, and by force.

Not sure you’re seeing the big picture of the power imbalance here.


I see the power imbalance, but much like the poverty imbalance you brought up earlier. The police can be called, but when the battered citizens avoid them and run to the gangs, no one wants to go in and fix it up when they don't see a hand on the other side helping.


Irrelevant in consideration of Israel as an occupying power. The 4th Geneva convention prohibits allowing poverty-like conditions, requires occupying states to provide for education and welfare of all children in occupied territories, and forbids destruction of private property or forcible relocation of people except for military operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ge ... erritories

Israel is signatory to the above, as of 1951.


See, but that ignores that the Palestinians took full Control for Governing Gaza in 2005, and then handed it over to Hamas.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 5:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I see the power imbalance, but much like the poverty imbalance you brought up earlier. The police can be called, but when the battered citizens avoid them and run to the gangs, no one wants to go in and fix it up when they don't see a hand on the other side helping.


Irrelevant in consideration of Israel as an occupying power. The 4th Geneva convention prohibits allowing poverty-like conditions, requires occupying states to provide for education and welfare of all children in occupied territories, and forbids destruction of private property or forcible relocation of people except for military operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ge ... erritories

Israel is signatory to the above, as of 1951.


See, but that ignores that the Palestinians took full Control for Governing Gaza in 2005, and then handed it over to Hamas.


They have never had full control - not sure where you get such information. The blockade has been in effect continuously, and Gaza has zero authority over its own borders. Translation: occupied

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=e

If I drew a line around your neighborhood and told you when and what could come in and out, would you call your area sovereign? Don't think so.
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 5:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Irrelevant in consideration of Israel as an occupying power. The 4th Geneva convention prohibits allowing poverty-like conditions, requires occupying states to provide for education and welfare of all children in occupied territories, and forbids destruction of private property or forcible relocation of people except for military operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ge ... erritories

Israel is signatory to the above, as of 1951.


See, but that ignores that the Palestinians took full Control for Governing Gaza in 2005, and then handed it over to Hamas.


They have never had full control - not sure where you get such information. The blockade has been in effect continuously, and Gaza has zero authority over its own borders. Translation: occupied

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=e

If I drew a line around your neighborhood and told you when and what could come in and out, would you call your area sovereign? Don't think so.


Gaza had it, and thy won't go back to the tables. The UN won't step in because they don't want to be in charge and manage it all. And Israel has a hard time recognizing a neighbor that lobs rockets for political points from Iran.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 5:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

See, but that ignores that the Palestinians took full Control for Governing Gaza in 2005, and then handed it over to Hamas.


They have never had full control - not sure where you get such information. The blockade has been in effect continuously, and Gaza has zero authority over its own borders. Translation: occupied

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=e

If I drew a line around your neighborhood and told you when and what could come in and out, would you call your area sovereign? Don't think so.


Gaza had it, and thy won't go back to the tables. The UN won't step in because they don't want to be in charge and manage it all. And Israel has a hard time recognizing a neighbor that lobs rockets for political points from Iran.


Another oversimplification - the UN cannot step in because the US is on the UNSC and would never vote for that.

Now back to that question about your neighborhood?
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 5:27 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

They have never had full control - not sure where you get such information. The blockade has been in effect continuously, and Gaza has zero authority over its own borders. Translation: occupied

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=e

If I drew a line around your neighborhood and told you when and what could come in and out, would you call your area sovereign? Don't think so.


Gaza had it, and thy won't go back to the tables. The UN won't step in because they don't want to be in charge and manage it all. And Israel has a hard time recognizing a neighbor that lobs rockets for political points from Iran.


Another oversimplification - the UN cannot step in because the US is on the UNSC and would never vote for that.

Now back to that question about your neighborhood?


You complain about oversimplifications and go back to simplifications :)

This issue is complex. Not the leas because of weapons, religious extremism, money, fraud, racism, nationalism, and the fact that some countries will always not vote for genocide in either direction,

Blaming it all on Israel, ignores the UN and others responsibility for what got it all started., and it ignores the factors that prevent a solution on all sides.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 8:37 pm

Lol at the thread called Rocket Attacks In Israel, while most have missed entire decades of Israel stealing land, breaking Oslo Accords, Breaking UN Solutions, practicing Apartheid etc.. all well documented by official organizations, but yes, by all means “Rockets In Israel” is your story here.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed May 12, 2021 11:07 pm

santi319 wrote:
Lol at the thread called Rocket Attacks In Israel, while most have missed entire decades of Israel stealing land, breaking Oslo Accords, Breaking UN Solutions, practicing Apartheid etc.. all well documented by official organizations, but yes, by all means “Rockets In Israel” is your story here.


It was not the original title - must have been changed due to the situation. My original title was ‘Another powderkeg in Israel’ and referred to the fact this was all about to go off again over the illegal evictions.
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WIederling
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 7:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Easy solution:
Sterilize all orthodox Jews and Palestinians after the first child. After 40 years one can relax it to two children.


Orthodox dogma encourages large families. The official rabbinate and religious courts will never allow your proposal.


Stop allimentation of the "busy with reproduction, can't work" groups.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 8:18 am

Reinhardt wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


Stop illegally kicking people out of their own homes and land then. And none of this, they were not a people to begin with, or they are gods people. Jews were wrongly, badly perscuted for well, almost forever. But they are now doing to others what happened to them. I just don't get it.

No the palestinians don't help themselves, but how can they? If you' re a kid and your friend or parent is shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, or a tank plows through your neighbourhood or your home is taken over by another country..you going to grow up hating them. If you have no life chances, and you get told or paid by Hamas to fight you're going to do it. This is perpetual.


:checkmark: What else does one have to live for at that point? If you have no point in living, you sure will die for something.

This is why BDS proved to be a thorn in their side that they swiftly countered. There should be an embargo on this country, land, sea, and air. Cut off their international financial remittances through SWIFT/BIS. We would see them cower at their knees and quickly form a peaceful solution. A two-state solution seems preferable, with strong protections for minority populations in both states, and free travel between states.
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 10:14 am

Sadly this is just another battle in the war that has been going on in the region for over 75 years. Neither side has the high moral ground. Israel has been taking homes and land by police and military force since its creation to provide housing for 'their' people. The Palestinians never had the support of the USA or Europe due to acts of terrorism in Israel, Europe as well as upon USA citizens especially in the late 1960's to the 1980's. Of course, the USA takes Israel's side, selling them weapons, giving them money, so to get evangelical Christian and Jewish voters. Europe encouraged the creation of Israel to 'take care of their Jewish problem'. European Jews wanted to end the anti-Semitic acts to them by creating their biblical homeland. Both 'sides' want a One-State solution that would wipe out the other. Clearly factions of the Palestinians like conflict, they deny the existence of Israel and commit acts that hurt non-combatants in Israel. There are no simple answers to this conflict but for Israel to stop seizing property of Palestinians by violence or threat of it.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 10:53 am

ltbewr wrote:
Sadly this is just another battle in the war that has been going on in the region for over 75 years. Neither side has the high moral ground. Israel has been taking homes and land by police and military force since its creation to provide housing for 'their' people. The Palestinians never had the support of the USA or Europe due to acts of terrorism in Israel, Europe as well as upon USA citizens especially in the late 1960's to the 1980's. Of course, the USA takes Israel's side, selling them weapons, giving them money, so to get evangelical Christian and Jewish voters. Europe encouraged the creation of Israel to 'take care of their Jewish problem'. European Jews wanted to end the anti-Semitic acts to them by creating their biblical homeland. Both 'sides' want a One-State solution that would wipe out the other. Clearly factions of the Palestinians like conflict, they deny the existence of Israel and commit acts that hurt non-combatants in Israel. There are no simple answers to this conflict but for Israel to stop seizing property of Palestinians by violence or threat of it.


The last sentence especially - is everything. It's the only way to change up the game (not to mention comply with Geneva). Any Israeli politician not pursuing that policy is an idiot.
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 11:10 am

What is happening on the West Bank, why is Israel not dropping bombs there and getting troops ready to invade, is this only restricted to the Gaza strip and if so why, where is Hezbollah in all this?
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 11:21 am

par13del wrote:
What is happening on the West Bank, why is Israel not dropping bombs there and getting troops ready to invade, is this only restricted to the Gaza strip and if so why, where is Hezbollah in all this?


Israel doesn't need to invade the West Bank, it's already surrounded and intersected by IDF bases and posts as well as Israeli settlements.

Hezbollah is in Lebanon, the political forces in Gaza and the WB are mainly Hamas and Fatah.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 12:11 pm

par13del wrote:
What is happening on the West Bank, why is Israel not dropping bombs there and getting troops ready to invade, is this only restricted to the Gaza strip and if so why, where is Hezbollah in all this?


This may help you get up to speed:

https://merip.org/palestine-israel-primer/
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 12:40 pm

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
What is happening on the West Bank, why is Israel not dropping bombs there and getting troops ready to invade, is this only restricted to the Gaza strip and if so why, where is Hezbollah in all this?


Israel doesn't need to invade the West Bank, it's already surrounded and intersected by IDF bases and posts as well as Israeli settlements.

Hezbollah is in Lebanon, the political forces in Gaza and the WB are mainly Hamas and Fatah.

Trying to understand the logic in a number of post, if Palestinians in the Gaza strip are willing to give their lives because they have no hope, why is the same not happening in the West Bank, do those Palestinians surrounded and occupied by Israel have hope, or are they just under more forceful control, what does the PA do?
Other posters say it is all because of a land grab by Israel, not sure I have seen many Palestinians willing to accept the first land grab that created Israel by the British, so what's the difference? If it is all about land grab, now is the time for Israel to establish more control over the West Bank during a war and forget about any court cases, or are folks willing to accept that the issue is much more complex?
We are once again in the Wash, Rinse Repeat cycle, and as in all past, the arguments being put forth have not changed. No one was shocked or surprised when Israel responded to rocket fire from Gaza, funny thing is, rocket fire from Gaza has never stopped just as Israel land grabs have never stopped, its just that there are levels that both sides tolerate, and when one goes over the limit or other forces get involved, we kick off the cycle again.
Its the Daily Mail so take it for what it is, but I do recall during the Intifada that suicide bus bombings was a weapon of choice, and I also recall how that came to an end, so I accept that the story below is plausible.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lised.html
 
bennett123
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 12:44 pm

IMO, a big part of the problem is Law of Return;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

If non Israeli Jews continue to return, Israel will need to build new settlements.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 2:05 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
What is happening on the West Bank, why is Israel not dropping bombs there and getting troops ready to invade, is this only restricted to the Gaza strip and if so why, where is Hezbollah in all this?


Israel doesn't need to invade the West Bank, it's already surrounded and intersected by IDF bases and posts as well as Israeli settlements.

Hezbollah is in Lebanon, the political forces in Gaza and the WB are mainly Hamas and Fatah.

Trying to understand the logic in a number of post, if Palestinians in the Gaza strip are willing to give their lives because they have no hope, why is the same not happening in the West Bank, do those Palestinians surrounded and occupied by Israel have hope, or are they just under more forceful control, what does the PA do?


Short story is Palestinians generaly have it better on the West Bank than Gaza. They have something more resembling of a functioning economy and as a result they haven't thrown themselves unconditionally into the arms of Hamas.

You don't want to delve on the black hole that is the long version.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 2:44 pm

Meanwhile, in Crazytown (Newsmax TV), one of their hosts has American Jews in a ruckus over his insinuation that Israel is our 'home country' and we must oppose Biden's response to the situation. How about...no? Jewish is not a nationality.

https://www.mediamatters.org/grant-stin ... ans?page=0
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 2:49 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Why embargo a country that has to defend itself from outside countries promoting rocket attacks?


Stop illegally kicking people out of their own homes and land then. And none of this, they were not a people to begin with, or they are gods people. Jews were wrongly, badly perscuted for well, almost forever. But they are now doing to others what happened to them. I just don't get it.

No the palestinians don't help themselves, but how can they? If you' re a kid and your friend or parent is shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, or a tank plows through your neighbourhood or your home is taken over by another country..you going to grow up hating them. If you have no life chances, and you get told or paid by Hamas to fight you're going to do it. This is perpetual.


:checkmark: What else does one have to live for at that point? If you have no point in living, you sure will die for something.

This is why BDS proved to be a thorn in their side that they swiftly countered. There should be an embargo on this country, land, sea, and air. Cut off their international financial remittances through SWIFT/BIS. We would see them cower at their knees and quickly form a peaceful solution. A two-state solution seems preferable, with strong protections for minority populations in both states, and free travel between states.


Overly simplistic. If the Israeli's have something to live for they will fight to keep it. The BDS ignores the fact that Israel has to fight back against the rocket attacks. And for those trying to gloss it over, these aren't Molotov cocktails coming in from the Gaza strip these are 15-20 foot long 18 inch diameter rockets being launched into Israel right now. Launched from neighborhoods, instead of open fields. Where is the war crime calls against Hamas for launching attacks from populated areas towards populated areas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tZ5Mp3TK0


The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


All of this was muddled up good due to the approach the UN and US had under the last administration, and it will take years of diplomacy to get anywhere.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 2:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
It has been an eventful month in Jerusalem, with continued police actions against uprising by Palestinians who are being forcibly evicted from East Jerusalem.


Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me, pure and simple. Indefensible. Not so different to what happened to the Jewish community in Germany 80 or so years ago.
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 3:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


Fatah has controlled the PA in the West Bank all along. Hasn't stopped settlement expansion a bit.

And that's leaving aside how Israel nurtured Hamas from the beginning to undermine support from mostly secular Arafat.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 4:02 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


Fatah has controlled the PA in the West Bank all along. Hasn't stopped settlement expansion a bit.

And that's leaving aside how Israel nurtured Hamas from the beginning to undermine support from mostly secular Arafat.


Looking at it from one side ignores the realities of a lot of items that occurred over many decades and even centuries. However as stated, there are both sides that have factions that want to destroy the other side.
We took a big step backwards in the last 4 years when the US foreign policy backed Netanyahu's expansion.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 4:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


Fatah has controlled the PA in the West Bank all along. Hasn't stopped settlement expansion a bit.

And that's leaving aside how Israel nurtured Hamas from the beginning to undermine support from mostly secular Arafat.


Looking at it from one side ignores the realities of a lot of items that occurred over many decades and even centuries. However as stated, there are both sides that have factions that want to destroy the other side.
We took a big step backwards in the last 4 years when the US foreign policy backed Netanyahu's expansion.


Of course - the settlements are the primary influence on the current power dynamic. One party has the power to make them cease/continue, the other does not. As the more powerful party, it is Israel's responsibility to change that policy.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 4:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Fatah has controlled the PA in the West Bank all along. Hasn't stopped settlement expansion a bit.

And that's leaving aside how Israel nurtured Hamas from the beginning to undermine support from mostly secular Arafat.


Looking at it from one side ignores the realities of a lot of items that occurred over many decades and even centuries. However as stated, there are both sides that have factions that want to destroy the other side.
We took a big step backwards in the last 4 years when the US foreign policy backed Netanyahu's expansion.


Of course - the settlements are the primary influence on the current power dynamic. One party has the power to make them cease/continue, the other does not. As the more powerful party, it is Israel's responsibility to change that policy.


It's hard for the forces that are working towards that to keep it going, when Hamas keeps launching rockets and other attacks with no response from the governing forces within Gaza. It is a viscous cycle that has to stop, and the Israeli's are going to protect the citizens that aren't firing the rockets.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 4:37 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Looking at it from one side ignores the realities of a lot of items that occurred over many decades and even centuries. However as stated, there are both sides that have factions that want to destroy the other side.
We took a big step backwards in the last 4 years when the US foreign policy backed Netanyahu's expansion.


Of course - the settlements are the primary influence on the current power dynamic. One party has the power to make them cease/continue, the other does not. As the more powerful party, it is Israel's responsibility to change that policy.


It's hard for the forces that are working towards that to keep it going, when Hamas keeps launching rockets and other attacks with no response from the governing forces within Gaza. It is a viscous cycle that has to stop, and the Israeli's are going to protect the citizens that aren't firing the rockets.


You are assigning responsibility where it does not reside. Power is about responsibility. Each side can say whatever event started from whatever narrative they choose - that discussion is circular and pointless, as you indicated. Rockets or no rockets, the Palestinians do not have the power to end the settlement activity.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 4:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Of course - the settlements are the primary influence on the current power dynamic. One party has the power to make them cease/continue, the other does not. As the more powerful party, it is Israel's responsibility to change that policy.


It's hard for the forces that are working towards that to keep it going, when Hamas keeps launching rockets and other attacks with no response from the governing forces within Gaza. It is a viscous cycle that has to stop, and the Israeli's are going to protect the citizens that aren't firing the rockets.


You are assigning responsibility where it does not reside. Power is about responsibility. Each side can say whatever event started from whatever narrative they choose - that discussion is circular and pointless, as you indicated. Rockets or no rockets, the Palestinians do not have the power to end the settlement activity.


If power is about responsibility, then you are going to be ok with the IDF taking over Gaza right? The rockets from Gaza were launched as a terrorist attack due to domestic unrest and riots in Jerusalem. The courts and international pressure could have handled that.

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
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