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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 5:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It's hard for the forces that are working towards that to keep it going, when Hamas keeps launching rockets and other attacks with no response from the governing forces within Gaza. It is a viscous cycle that has to stop, and the Israeli's are going to protect the citizens that aren't firing the rockets.


You are assigning responsibility where it does not reside. Power is about responsibility. Each side can say whatever event started from whatever narrative they choose - that discussion is circular and pointless, as you indicated. Rockets or no rockets, the Palestinians do not have the power to end the settlement activity.


If power is about responsibility, then you are going to be ok with the IDF taking over Gaza right? The rockets from Gaza were launched as a terrorist attack due to domestic unrest and riots in Jerusalem. The courts and international pressure could have handled that.

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


Those are selective mentions - you didn’t include Mandela or Chiang Kai-shek, both of whom used combined legal maneuvers and violence to stave off oppression by a larger power.

Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 5:25 pm

[quote="casinterest"]
It's hard for the forces that are working towards that to keep it going, when Hamas keeps launching rockets and other attacks with no response from the governing forces within Gaza.[quote]
Is this a claim that Hamas is not the ruling authority in the Gaza strip, I thought they were elected and once done they ran the PA out, what did I miss?
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 5:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.

...which is / was not created by Israel and they are not going out there putting the UN up as a fair arbitrator of anything, they are however saying that their court system is, so, sometimes it helps to play others games and see the result. We have seen some Palestinian victories in the court system, but at the end of the day, those in the ME are going to have to settle the issue, not those wo reside outside and want to place our values and interpretations on the situation, we still preach turn the other check right, that does not play over there.
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 5:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


Fatah has controlled the PA in the West Bank all along. Hasn't stopped settlement expansion a bit.

And that's leaving aside how Israel nurtured Hamas from the beginning to undermine support from mostly secular Arafat.


Looking at it from one side ignores the realities of a lot of items that occurred over many decades and even centuries. However as stated, there are both sides that have factions that want to destroy the other side.


You don't need to go that far back when Israel was actively promoting Hamas to have a go at Arafat, and now they complain that a fundamentalist group does fundamentalist things.

Who would have thought that.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 5:57 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

You are assigning responsibility where it does not reside. Power is about responsibility. Each side can say whatever event started from whatever narrative they choose - that discussion is circular and pointless, as you indicated. Rockets or no rockets, the Palestinians do not have the power to end the settlement activity.


If power is about responsibility, then you are going to be ok with the IDF taking over Gaza right? The rockets from Gaza were launched as a terrorist attack due to domestic unrest and riots in Jerusalem. The courts and international pressure could have handled that.

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


Those are selective mentions - you didn’t include Mandela or Chiang Kai-shek, both of whom used combined legal maneuvers and violence to stave off oppression by a larger power.

Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.


We have already determined that violence hasn't and will not work for the Palestinians. They need to trust the institutions, otherwise they will wind up with the IDF all over Gaza again.

Maybe the real fix is for the UN to send peacekeepers.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
bennett123
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 6:03 pm

Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 6:10 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'


Then you have to have some serious discussions, and it will take the US to help push it. Either way, this new conflict has solidified Bibi again,

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... kud-talks/
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
art
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 6:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular.


Israel is like Iran - a vigorously religious state. Religious states are not known for law based on simple reason. The job of a judiciary is to apply whatever law exists in the state concerned, however unreasonable that law may be,
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 6:29 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

If power is about responsibility, then you are going to be ok with the IDF taking over Gaza right? The rockets from Gaza were launched as a terrorist attack due to domestic unrest and riots in Jerusalem. The courts and international pressure could have handled that.

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


Those are selective mentions - you didn’t include Mandela or Chiang Kai-shek, both of whom used combined legal maneuvers and violence to stave off oppression by a larger power.

Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.


We have already determined that violence hasn't and will not work for the Palestinians. They need to trust the institutions, otherwise they will wind up with the IDF all over Gaza again.

Maybe the real fix is for the UN to send peacekeepers.


The PA would take an international force controlling their borders and even as an internal peacekeeping force rather than the IDF.

It's Israel who won't allow that because they have so many votes sunk into settlers that any government trying that would last all of 5 minutes in office.

It's in Israel's economic and social interest to keep the status quo for an indefinite time, unless they can magically grow some promised land elsewhere (preferably coming with their own water sources, another hot issue right now).
 
B717fan
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 6:47 pm

Rocket launches being reported from southern Lebanon.
https://twitter.com/newsisrael13/status ... 7586749443
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 13, 2021 11:33 pm

JJJ wrote:
The PA would take an international force controlling their borders and even as an internal peacekeeping force rather than the IDF.

It's Israel who won't allow that because they have so many votes sunk into settlers that any government trying that would last all of 5 minutes in office.

It's in Israel's economic and social interest to keep the status quo for an indefinite time, unless they can magically grow some promised land elsewhere (preferably coming with their own water sources, another hot issue right now).

Thought the UN peace keeping force was for the Gaza strip, Israel pulled their settlements years ago, replaced with a fence. Egypt mans one border, Israel would continue to man theirs, how would the force prevent the occasional rocket fire, that would have to be their mission, no way the UN would get countries to pony up the police forces for such an operation.
At least my opinion.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:48 am

bennett123 wrote:
Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'


It's not Israel that is the problem - they are not a permanent member of the UNSC. A resolution would be needed, and it is unlikely the US would vote yes. Even if there is a majority of votes on the UNSC, a 'no' from any permanent member tanks the resolution. This is a fundamental problem with the UNSC - the P5 are often at the center of these issues.
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c933103
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

If power is about responsibility, then you are going to be ok with the IDF taking over Gaza right? The rockets from Gaza were launched as a terrorist attack due to domestic unrest and riots in Jerusalem. The courts and international pressure could have handled that.

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


Those are selective mentions - you didn’t include Mandela or Chiang Kai-shek, both of whom used combined legal maneuvers and violence to stave off oppression by a larger power.

Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.


We have already determined that violence hasn't and will not work for the Palestinians. They need to trust the institutions, otherwise they will wind up with the IDF all over Gaza again.

Maybe the real fix is for the UN to send peacekeepers.

But have more peaceful ways worked anywhere else? The existence of UN and Israel is already 3/4 a century old.
Civil disobedience as observed in like India or American minority only works when one is part of another country's society and that country value keeping their society running, obviously there are no such direct relationship between Israel and Gaza
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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santi319
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 4:12 am

casinterest wrote:

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


You mean peaceful like the West Bank? While losing everyday land and evicting everyone? Because thats working?

Seriously its surreal how wrong and blind the supporters of the Israeli Government can be. Borderline embarassing. The irony is they can’t control what gets out anymore and the tide is definetly turning. They need to be sanctioned (Shouldve been decades ago but here we are).
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 7:01 am

casinterest wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:

Stop illegally kicking people out of their own homes and land then. And none of this, they were not a people to begin with, or they are gods people. Jews were wrongly, badly perscuted for well, almost forever. But they are now doing to others what happened to them. I just don't get it.

No the palestinians don't help themselves, but how can they? If you' re a kid and your friend or parent is shot in the head by an Israeli sniper, or a tank plows through your neighbourhood or your home is taken over by another country..you going to grow up hating them. If you have no life chances, and you get told or paid by Hamas to fight you're going to do it. This is perpetual.


:checkmark: What else does one have to live for at that point? If you have no point in living, you sure will die for something.

This is why BDS proved to be a thorn in their side that they swiftly countered. There should be an embargo on this country, land, sea, and air. Cut off their international financial remittances through SWIFT/BIS. We would see them cower at their knees and quickly form a peaceful solution. A two-state solution seems preferable, with strong protections for minority populations in both states, and free travel between states.


Overly simplistic. If the Israeli's have something to live for they will fight to keep it. The BDS ignores the fact that Israel has to fight back against the rocket attacks. And for those trying to gloss it over, these aren't Molotov cocktails coming in from the Gaza strip these are 15-20 foot long 18 inch diameter rockets being launched into Israel right now. Launched from neighborhoods, instead of open fields. Where is the war crime calls against Hamas for launching attacks from populated areas towards populated areas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tZ5Mp3TK0


The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


All of this was muddled up good due to the approach the UN and US had under the last administration, and it will take years of diplomacy to get anywhere.


If I were one of them I'd be one of them picking up rocks. Don't come in my neighborhood and start it when you've already taken my home, my childhood, my cousins, my culture, etc. There is no need for peace until you stop shooting. Rocks =/= tanks, F-16s, and bombs. Until kingdom come I would fight you. Until my own death I would fight you. You have caused the problem you sought not to. And killed thousands of Palestinians to do it, and displaced millions.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 7:05 am

B717fan wrote:
Rocket launches being reported from southern Lebanon.
https://twitter.com/newsisrael13/status ... 7586749443


Let this escalate into full on war and let the fight be on two fronts.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 8:29 am

It's well and truely time for the UN to do something. It's silence as an institution is telling (and therefore shows you these days it's effectively irrellevant). The US and other permanent members have seen to that.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am

Pellegrine wrote:
B717fan wrote:
Rocket launches being reported from southern Lebanon.
https://twitter.com/newsisrael13/status ... 7586749443


Let this escalate into full on war and let the fight be on two fronts.


Netanyahu will be corking out the champagne when that happens.

They just bought themselves a couple decades or so of abuse justification. And that pesky opposition speaking about maybe possibly treat Palestinians a little bit better won't get a shot at winning an election for more or less the same time.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am

JJJ wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
B717fan wrote:
Rocket launches being reported from southern Lebanon.
https://twitter.com/newsisrael13/status ... 7586749443


Let this escalate into full on war and let the fight be on two fronts.


Netanyahu will be corking out the champagne when that happens.

They just bought themselves a couple decades or so of abuse justification. And that pesky opposition speaking about maybe possibly treat Palestinians a little bit better won't get a shot at winning an election for more or less the same time.


If he bought that, he's bought a whole new Intifada. Not that he cares. He cares about power above lives.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 10:00 am

Reinhardt wrote:
It's well and truely time for the UN to do something. It's silence as an institution is telling (and therefore shows you these days it's effectively irrellevant). The US and other permanent members have seen to that.


The UN never takes any action to prevent the continuation of conflict if one of two combatants is a close ally of a member of the Security Council. IMO the term 'Security Council' is a sad misnomer when used to describe a body that prolongs insecurity rather than promoting security in war-torn lands.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 11:32 am

Aaron747 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'


It's not Israel that is the problem - they are not a permanent member of the UNSC. A resolution would be needed, and it is unlikely the US would vote yes. Even if there is a majority of votes on the UNSC, a 'no' from any permanent member tanks the resolution. This is a fundamental problem with the UNSC - the P5 are often at the center of these issues.


What's the point of the UNSC if the P5 are going to use their veto power for any resolution that they don't like.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 11:37 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'


It's not Israel that is the problem - they are not a permanent member of the UNSC. A resolution would be needed, and it is unlikely the US would vote yes. Even if there is a majority of votes on the UNSC, a 'no' from any permanent member tanks the resolution. This is a fundamental problem with the UNSC - the P5 are often at the center of these issues.


What's the point of the UNSC if the P5 are going to use their veto power for any resolution that they don't like.


I really don't know - it's ridiculous. At the very least, the US, PRC, and Russia have zero credibility as members in today's world.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:05 pm

Well if you look at the history of the UN, the UNSC P5 has avoided many a problem that the General Assembly would have created, imagine the chaos when the Soviet Bloc was a thing, the non-aligned movement, third world bloc etc etc where the majority are more influenced by wanting to make political points, following the leader or just doing what they were told versus what is / was in the best interest of the world. We oft times have this opinion that the majority are pure and driven by "worthy goals" versus the actual reality.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Well if you look at the history of the UN, the UNSC P5 has avoided many a problem that the General Assembly would have created, imagine the chaos when the Soviet Bloc was a thing, the non-aligned movement, third world bloc etc etc where the majority are more influenced by wanting to make political points, following the leader or just doing what they were told versus what is / was in the best interest of the world. We oft times have this opinion that the majority are pure and driven by "worthy goals" versus the actual reality.


I don’t disagree - realpolitik is what it is. But as you say, this arrangement had its place in the Cold War. In the current era, not so much. It would be better to have nations with a history of neutrality in the P5.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:51 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

:checkmark: What else does one have to live for at that point? If you have no point in living, you sure will die for something.

This is why BDS proved to be a thorn in their side that they swiftly countered. There should be an embargo on this country, land, sea, and air. Cut off their international financial remittances through SWIFT/BIS. We would see them cower at their knees and quickly form a peaceful solution. A two-state solution seems preferable, with strong protections for minority populations in both states, and free travel between states.


Overly simplistic. If the Israeli's have something to live for they will fight to keep it. The BDS ignores the fact that Israel has to fight back against the rocket attacks. And for those trying to gloss it over, these aren't Molotov cocktails coming in from the Gaza strip these are 15-20 foot long 18 inch diameter rockets being launched into Israel right now. Launched from neighborhoods, instead of open fields. Where is the war crime calls against Hamas for launching attacks from populated areas towards populated areas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tZ5Mp3TK0


The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


All of this was muddled up good due to the approach the UN and US had under the last administration, and it will take years of diplomacy to get anywhere.


If I were one of them I'd be one of them picking up rocks. Don't come in my neighborhood and start it when you've already taken my home, my childhood, my cousins, my culture, etc. There is no need for peace until you stop shooting. Rocks =/= tanks, F-16s, and bombs. Until kingdom come I would fight you. Until my own death I would fight you. You have caused the problem you sought not to. And killed thousands of Palestinians to do it, and displaced millions.

You are confusing the legal issue in Jerusalem, and riots that resulted, with the rocket attacks from Hamas. if you are willing to fight for your own life, then go for it. Just make sure you aren't aiming missiles at innocent people in other countries with better weapons.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Overly simplistic. If the Israeli's have something to live for they will fight to keep it. The BDS ignores the fact that Israel has to fight back against the rocket attacks. And for those trying to gloss it over, these aren't Molotov cocktails coming in from the Gaza strip these are 15-20 foot long 18 inch diameter rockets being launched into Israel right now. Launched from neighborhoods, instead of open fields. Where is the war crime calls against Hamas for launching attacks from populated areas towards populated areas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tZ5Mp3TK0


The fighting has to stop and negotiations have to occur, but until the Palestinians actually sit at the table to work out a real two state solution, it won't happen. Israel has to as well ,but with Hamas leading the charge, the Palestinians are still pushing for their own one state solution.


All of this was muddled up good due to the approach the UN and US had under the last administration, and it will take years of diplomacy to get anywhere.


If I were one of them I'd be one of them picking up rocks. Don't come in my neighborhood and start it when you've already taken my home, my childhood, my cousins, my culture, etc. There is no need for peace until you stop shooting. Rocks =/= tanks, F-16s, and bombs. Until kingdom come I would fight you. Until my own death I would fight you. You have caused the problem you sought not to. And killed thousands of Palestinians to do it, and displaced millions.

You are confusing the legal issue in Jerusalem, and riots that resulted, with the rocket attacks from Hamas. if you are willing to fight for your own life, then go for it. Just make sure you aren't aiming missiles at innocent people in other countries with better weapons.


It's not a mere 'legal' issue - that's pretty dismissive to the victims of it. It's progressive annexation by an occupying power - that was never agreed to.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri May 14, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:56 pm

santi319 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


You mean peaceful like the West Bank? While losing everyday land and evicting everyone? Because thats working?

Seriously its surreal how wrong and blind the supporters of the Israeli Government can be. Borderline embarassing. The irony is they can’t control what gets out anymore and the tide is definetly turning. They need to be sanctioned (Shouldve been decades ago but here we are).

And the tide has turned again in Israel. These attacks only served to strengthen Netanyahu and the hardliners stance. Zionism is slowly losing strength over time, but these indiscriminate rocket attacks keep stretching it out. What went on in Jerusalem was a legal and police issue with legitimate grievances about the court case. However with indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza, the hardliners will be under pressure to reinvade Gaza to protect the citizens of Israel, many of whom believe in seeking peaceful solutions.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 1:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

If I were one of them I'd be one of them picking up rocks. Don't come in my neighborhood and start it when you've already taken my home, my childhood, my cousins, my culture, etc. There is no need for peace until you stop shooting. Rocks =/= tanks, F-16s, and bombs. Until kingdom come I would fight you. Until my own death I would fight you. You have caused the problem you sought not to. And killed thousands of Palestinians to do it, and displaced millions.

You are confusing the legal issue in Jerusalem, and riots that resulted, with the rocket attacks from Hamas. if you are willing to fight for your own life, then go for it. Just make sure you aren't aiming missiles at innocent people in other countries with better weapons.


It's not a mere 'legal' issue - that's pretty dismissive to the victims of it. It's progressive gradual annexation by an occupying power.


It is though, just as the ones we have in the US. Ones which have years of racism, oppression , and inconsistencies behind it. It was still winding through the court system. The riots that resulted were horrible, but they were a police matter and legal matter and the UN and others could work to pointing out the issues there.

The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM. Some would say it s a war, but if so, then don't expect Israel not to respond.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
santi319 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

If the Palestinians have the ability to allow Hamas to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, who is to say Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately take land in court cases? To fix the direction of the discussion, the attitudes must change by those being oppressed. We all remember how Ghandi got it, we all remember how minority Americans had to fight for it. It didn't involve fighting. It involved civil disobedience. The Palestinians need to stop giving Hamas the ability to keep them in this viscous cycle.


You mean peaceful like the West Bank? While losing everyday land and evicting everyone? Because thats working?

Seriously its surreal how wrong and blind the supporters of the Israeli Government can be. Borderline embarassing. The irony is they can’t control what gets out anymore and the tide is definetly turning. They need to be sanctioned (Shouldve been decades ago but here we are).

And the tide has turned again in Israel. These attacks only served to strengthen Netanyahu and the hardliners stance. Zionism is slowly losing strength over time, but these indiscriminate rocket attacks keep stretching it out. What went on in Jerusalem was a legal and police issue with legitimate grievances about the court case. However with indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza, the hardliners will be under pressure to reinvade Gaza to protect the citizens of Israel, many of whom believe in seeking peaceful solutions.


Not everyone's buying Bibi's bullshit. I have 25-30 Israeli friends and acquaintances in my FB feed, and 80% of them are doing things like sharing peace memes, social justice passages from Torah, and fighting with hardliners on J-Post articles.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:04 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
santi319 wrote:

You mean peaceful like the West Bank? While losing everyday land and evicting everyone? Because thats working?

Seriously its surreal how wrong and blind the supporters of the Israeli Government can be. Borderline embarassing. The irony is they can’t control what gets out anymore and the tide is definetly turning. They need to be sanctioned (Shouldve been decades ago but here we are).

And the tide has turned again in Israel. These attacks only served to strengthen Netanyahu and the hardliners stance. Zionism is slowly losing strength over time, but these indiscriminate rocket attacks keep stretching it out. What went on in Jerusalem was a legal and police issue with legitimate grievances about the court case. However with indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza, the hardliners will be under pressure to reinvade Gaza to protect the citizens of Israel, many of whom believe in seeking peaceful solutions.


Not everyone's buying Bibi's bullshit. I have 25-30 Israeli friends and acquaintances in my FB feed, and 80% of them are doing things like sharing peace memes, social justice passages from Torah, and fighting with hardliners on J-Post articles.


Where did I say that?

I will quote from below.

casinterest wrote:
Re: Rocket attacks in Israel
by casinterest » 13 May 2021 14:10

bennett123 wrote:
Would a Security Council resolution be needed to send in peacekeepers.

What if Israel says 'no'


Then you have to have some serious discussions, and it will take the US to help push it. Either way, this new conflict has solidified Bibi again,

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... kud-talks/
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
You are confusing the legal issue in Jerusalem, and riots that resulted, with the rocket attacks from Hamas. if you are willing to fight for your own life, then go for it. Just make sure you aren't aiming missiles at innocent people in other countries with better weapons.


It's not a mere 'legal' issue - that's pretty dismissive to the victims of it. It's progressive gradual annexation by an occupying power.


It is though, just as the ones we have in the US. Ones which have years of racism, oppression , and inconsistencies behind it. It was still winding through the court system. The riots that resulted were horrible, but they were a police matter and legal matter and the UN and others could work to pointing out the issues there.

The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM. Some would say it s a war, but if so, then don't expect Israel not to respond.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group - everyone knows that. What are they acting for now, though? Have you asked that question? Palestinian protesters were shot in multiple locations in the week prior - and at the Al Aqsa mosque protest, there were nearly 100 people hospitalized with just six Jerusalem police injured. Still not seeing the big picture. As I said before, you can move the timeline here or there, any narrative can be made to fit. In that context, it's a matter of which power has the responsibility here - in this case, it's the occupiers. In the 1980s were you calling for Mandela to be imprisoned indefinitely because he was a terrorist?
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:14 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's not a mere 'legal' issue - that's pretty dismissive to the victims of it. It's progressive gradual annexation by an occupying power.


It is though, just as the ones we have in the US. Ones which have years of racism, oppression , and inconsistencies behind it. It was still winding through the court system. The riots that resulted were horrible, but they were a police matter and legal matter and the UN and others could work to pointing out the issues there.

The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM. Some would say it s a war, but if so, then don't expect Israel not to respond.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group - everyone knows that. What are they acting for now, though? Have you asked that question? Palestinian protesters were shot in multiple locations in the week prior - and at the Al Aqsa mosque protest, there were nearly 100 people hospitalized with just six Jerusalem police injured. Still not seeing the big picture. As I said before, you can move the timeline here or there, any narrative can be made to fit. In that context, it's a matter of which power has the responsibility here - in this case, it's the occupiers. In the 1980s were you calling for Mandela to be imprisoned indefinitely because he was a terrorist?


Hamas are terrorists. That is why they are acting out now. They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better. They are not making a plan to win the "struggle". They are looking to hurt others. So don't complain about Israel's Responsibilities to legal issues of displacing families and land grabs , when they have to protect everyone from missiles raining down indiscriminately from terrorists in Gaza.

If Hamas has a plan to "win" they sure are not showing it now.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It is though, just as the ones we have in the US. Ones which have years of racism, oppression , and inconsistencies behind it. It was still winding through the court system. The riots that resulted were horrible, but they were a police matter and legal matter and the UN and others could work to pointing out the issues there.

The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM. Some would say it s a war, but if so, then don't expect Israel not to respond.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group - everyone knows that. What are they acting for now, though? Have you asked that question? Palestinian protesters were shot in multiple locations in the week prior - and at the Al Aqsa mosque protest, there were nearly 100 people hospitalized with just six Jerusalem police injured. Still not seeing the big picture. As I said before, you can move the timeline here or there, any narrative can be made to fit. In that context, it's a matter of which power has the responsibility here - in this case, it's the occupiers. In the 1980s were you calling for Mandela to be imprisoned indefinitely because he was a terrorist?


Hamas are terrorists. That is why they are acting out now. They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better. They are not making a plan to win the "struggle". They are looking to hurt others. So don't complain about Israel's Responsibilities to legal issues of displacing families and land grabs , when they have to protect everyone from missiles raining down indiscriminately from terrorists in Gaza.

If Hamas has a plan to "win" they sure are not showing it now.


Yes, but how did they get there? The people of Gaza are barely clinging to anything resembling hope. Perhaps some perspective on what things are like there may help you understand how people can regard Hamas as their government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkh3BJ4d2bQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJ3UiGTQio

And even if you are not a resident there, it can still affect your life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYS6Gf3hgY

Curious that you did not answer the Mandela question, since there are a lot of political power / socioeconomic parallels to the townships of pre-94 ZA.
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petertenthije
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM.
Fixed that for you.

Anyway, why are the rockets from Gaza terrorism, and the rockets from Israel not?

Is it the delivery system? A (semi-)improvised rocket is terrorism? A laser guided bomb is not?
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:27 pm

petertenthije wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The rocket attacks from Gaza, are nothing short of PURE,COMPLETE and unprovoked TERRORISM.
Fixed that for you.

Anyway, why are the rockets from Gaza terrorism, and the rockets from Israel not?

Is it the delivery system? A (semi-)improvised rocket is terrorism? A laser guided bomb is not?


All Terrorism is Unprovoked, Otherwise it would be an act of war. Is Gaza ready to fight a war?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group - everyone knows that. What are they acting for now, though? Have you asked that question? Palestinian protesters were shot in multiple locations in the week prior - and at the Al Aqsa mosque protest, there were nearly 100 people hospitalized with just six Jerusalem police injured. Still not seeing the big picture. As I said before, you can move the timeline here or there, any narrative can be made to fit. In that context, it's a matter of which power has the responsibility here - in this case, it's the occupiers. In the 1980s were you calling for Mandela to be imprisoned indefinitely because he was a terrorist?


Hamas are terrorists. That is why they are acting out now. They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better. They are not making a plan to win the "struggle". They are looking to hurt others. So don't complain about Israel's Responsibilities to legal issues of displacing families and land grabs , when they have to protect everyone from missiles raining down indiscriminately from terrorists in Gaza.

If Hamas has a plan to "win" they sure are not showing it now.


Yes, but how did they get there? The people of Gaza are barely clinging to anything resembling hope. Perhaps some perspective on what things are like there may help you understand how people can regard Hamas as their government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkh3BJ4d2bQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJ3UiGTQio

And even if you are not a resident there, it can still affect your life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYS6Gf3hgY

Curious that you did not answer the Mandela question, since there are a lot of political power / socioeconomic parallels to the townships of pre-94 ZA.


How did they get there? years and years of terrorism, and hate. Mandela still had to depend on overwhelming numbers to implement violence.
You seem to forger all the years that Israel had open borders before the infitahs, where they tried to get everyone to work and live together.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:50 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Hamas are terrorists. That is why they are acting out now. They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better. They are not making a plan to win the "struggle". They are looking to hurt others. So don't complain about Israel's Responsibilities to legal issues of displacing families and land grabs , when they have to protect everyone from missiles raining down indiscriminately from terrorists in Gaza.

If Hamas has a plan to "win" they sure are not showing it now.


Yes, but how did they get there? The people of Gaza are barely clinging to anything resembling hope. Perhaps some perspective on what things are like there may help you understand how people can regard Hamas as their government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkh3BJ4d2bQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJ3UiGTQio

And even if you are not a resident there, it can still affect your life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYS6Gf3hgY

Curious that you did not answer the Mandela question, since there are a lot of political power / socioeconomic parallels to the townships of pre-94 ZA.


How did they get there? years and years of terrorism, and hate. Mandela still had to depend on overwhelming numbers to implement violence.
You seem to forger all the years that Israel had open borders before the infitahs, where they tried to get everyone to work and live together.


This is just not an accurate reading of history - on both counts. The settlement activity in its current form dates back to occupation of the WB and Gaza in 1967. Look at aerial photos of Jerusalem suburbs then and now if you want to grasp the impact. The intifadas in part resulted from frustration at not getting anywhere with the annexations. And Mandela did not depend on overwhelming numbers - the ANC was a mostly nonviolent organization. Mandela pleaded guilty to attacks on Afrikaners and publicly supported car bombings - he cleverly depended on the ZA government acting worse every time, and got the justifications he sought.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 2:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, but how did they get there? The people of Gaza are barely clinging to anything resembling hope. Perhaps some perspective on what things are like there may help you understand how people can regard Hamas as their government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkh3BJ4d2bQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJ3UiGTQio

And even if you are not a resident there, it can still affect your life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYS6Gf3hgY

Curious that you did not answer the Mandela question, since there are a lot of political power / socioeconomic parallels to the townships of pre-94 ZA.


How did they get there? years and years of terrorism, and hate. Mandela still had to depend on overwhelming numbers to implement violence.
You seem to forger all the years that Israel had open borders before the infitahs, where they tried to get everyone to work and live together.




This is just not an accurate reading of history - on both counts. The settlement activity in its current form dates back to occupation of the WB and Gaza in 1967. Look at aerial photos of Jerusalem suburbs then and now if you want to grasp the impact. The intifadas in part resulted from frustration at not getting anywhere with the annexations. And Mandela did not depend on overwhelming numbers - the ANC was a mostly nonviolent organization. Mandela pleaded guilty to attacks on Afrikaners and publicly supported car bombings - he cleverly depended on the ZA government acting worse every time, and got the justifications he sought.


We can go back as far as we want on this ,but 1947, 1967 are all 50+ years ago. There are 30-40 something year olds who were kids when Saddam Hussein decided to launch rockets from iraq under the threat of chemical warfare, that all have families now that bought homes in neighborhoods far separated from what occurred earlier.
South Africa was a battle fought over racial injustices within the country, and Mandela faces repercussions for what he did.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 3:11 pm

Funny Trump cut off funding to the Palestinians and it seemed to be pretty quiet over there. Biden kicks them 200 million and all of a sudden they can afford rockets to shoot over to Israel. But you know Orange man = BAD. Senile old man = GOOD.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 3:16 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Funny Trump cut off funding to the Palestinians and it seemed to be pretty quiet over there. Biden kicks them 200 million and all of a sudden they can afford rockets to shoot over to Israel. But you know Orange man = BAD. Senile old man = GOOD.


I was there in 2019 during the rocket attacks. Where was your cowardly savior then?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 3:29 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Funny Trump cut off funding to the Palestinians and it seemed to be pretty quiet over there. Biden kicks them 200 million and all of a sudden they can afford rockets to shoot over to Israel. But you know Orange man = BAD. Senile old man = GOOD.


Huh? They have been actively stockpiling (and building their own) this generation of rockets since 2006. Or did you forget about those tunnels to Egypt? Ridiculous.
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bennett123
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 3:30 pm

What legitimate options do the Palestinians have?.

Can they rely on the Israeli courts?.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 4:39 pm

bennett123 wrote:
What legitimate options do the Palestinians have?.

Can they rely on the Israeli courts?.

Of course not. The whole judicial rationale for eviction that Jews have right to return to land they owned decades ago is as biased as it gets because that would never work the other way.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 5:08 pm

Here is a good article on where this is going.

https://news.yahoo.com/analysis-israel- ... 44107.html

Either way, there seems no end in sight to Hamas' rule in Gaza or the blockade Israel says is needed to contain it.

“Ground offensive or no ground offensive, ultimately it does not matter," analyst Baconi said.

“The broader strategy is going to remain one which Israelis call mowing the lawn,” he said. That means maintaining the status quo, and “every time Gaza becomes a bit too powerful, hit it.”

Why it all happens and keeps happening.

Last month, President Mahmoud Abbas called off the first Palestinian elections in 15 years amid signs his splintering Fatah party would suffer an embarrassing defeat to Hamas. The militant group's stature has only grown since then, with Abbas largely sidelined by the conflict.

Israel, meanwhile, derives certain advantages from maintaining the status quo that prevailed in Gaza before the latest fighting.

It routinely blames the failure of the peace process on Hamas, which does not recognize the country's right to exist and is considered a terrorist group by Israel and Western nations.


As long as Hamas is in power, they grow stronger, but they keep peace from happening as well.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 5:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

It's not Israel that is the problem - they are not a permanent member of the UNSC. A resolution would be needed, and it is unlikely the US would vote yes. Even if there is a majority of votes on the UNSC, a 'no' from any permanent member tanks the resolution. This is a fundamental problem with the UNSC - the P5 are often at the center of these issues.


Totally agree - the UNSC is hampered in doing anything in many situations because one of the "big" 5 permanent members will veto in line with domestic and / or international policies. It is long overdue a change in both membership and how it operates.

The issue was discussed by the UN back in 2018 https://www.un.org/press/en/2018/ga12091.doc.htm but did not seem to get anywhere - any change to the status quo on the UNSC is likley to need to the backing of the current 5 permanent members - and they are not likley to vote to remove the unbalanced amount of power they hold - it would be like turkey's voting for christmas.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 14, 2021 8:18 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Israeli courts are generally not considered to be fully secular. It seems dubious at best to suggest Palestinians should simply trust such institutions to be fair arbiters when Israel already disregards both multiple UN resolutions and int’l law.

...which is / was not created by Israel and they are not going out there putting the UN up as a fair arbitrator of anything, they are however saying that their court system is, so, sometimes it helps to play others games and see the result. We have seen some Palestinian victories in the court system, but at the end of the day, those in the ME are going to have to settle the issue, not those wo reside outside and want to place our values and interpretations on the situation, we still preach turn the other check right, that does not play over there.


Well that right there is my main problem with Israel. Israel is a country made by Europeans in the Middle East. An European colony there, if you prefer. And Israel plays the card of having our values to claim the moral high ground. There may well be a "Middle Eastern" way of solving the issue, but Israel isn't really part of the Middle East.

That's precisely why it has support from the US, of course.

If you think matters should be settled between local people, then stop supporting Israel, let them live in their chosen place, and really deal with that choice without outside help.
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art
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Sat May 15, 2021 4:47 am

casinterest wrote:
Hamas are terrorists. That is why they are acting out now. They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better. They are not making a plan to win the "struggle". They are looking to hurt others. So don't complain about Israel's Responsibilities to legal issues of displacing families and land grabs , when they have to protect everyone from missiles raining down indiscriminately from terrorists in Gaza.


'Terrorist' is often misused to label armed opponents to regimes with a pejorative term.

Your words of criticism 'They are not diplomats. They are not caring about families, or futures, or how to make the situation better.' could apply equally to both warring factions here.

Now, let's suppose that one faction decided to confiscate the land in east Jerusalem for its own use. Would any sane person expect those living in east Jerusalem not to resort to violence to try to stop that happening?

Now, let's suppose that one faction decided to confiscate the land in west Jerusalem for its own use. Would any sane person expect those living in west Jerusalem not to resort to violence to try to stop that happening?
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 15, 2021 5:11 am

Why the hell is the US involved in this conflict
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art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 15, 2021 5:44 am

stl07 wrote:
Why the hell is the US involved in this conflict


If you are American, you are in a better position to know than the rest of us. I follow that the US supports Israel. I don't follow the absence of US reaction to Israeli ethnic cleansing.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 15, 2021 6:57 am

stl07 wrote:
Why the hell is the US involved in this conflict


Some nonsense about Israel being the only democracy in the "Middle East", and why that is important.
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