Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
JJJ wrote:Aaron747 wrote:casinterest wrote:
The status quo in South Africa didn't result in terrorist attacks and neighboring countries pushing open terrorism with weapons supplies.
Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:
https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf
Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.
It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:Aaron747 wrote:
Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:
https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf
Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.
It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:Aaron747 wrote:
Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:
https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf
Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.
It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
JJJ wrote:par13del wrote:JJJ wrote:
Israel collects about 75% of tax revenue of the PA authority (import, payroll, and other assorted taxes). And because imports are forcefully routed through Israel (the PA doesn't control their own borders) it's not like they can do it some other way.
I thought that Israel remitted a lot of those taxes to the PLO, I recall a few years ago the UN and other raising a hissy fit when Israel with held some funds, is that agreement still in place?
Sure. But is your tax money really yours if they're collected by someone else and depend on being in good terms with them to actually get them? Plus Israel gets their cut, too. Or "administrative fee" using their term.
Are you really a self-governing territory if 60% of it is off-limits for "security" reasons and under direct military occupation of a foreign power?
At best you're a Bantustan, or a native reservation.
Aaron747 wrote:casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:
Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.
It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
Well I proved your claims about no terror in SA to be incorrect, and factually pointed out the various analogues between Israeli and SA ethnonationalist policies. I can't do much about the absolutism in the 2nd sentence of that last post though. Perhaps you should see what the people over there actually say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRI0XvpFz90
JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:
Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.
It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.
Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.
Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
You don't understand what Government is do you?
casinterest wrote:Aaron747 wrote:casinterest wrote:
No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
Well I proved your claims about no terror in SA to be incorrect, and factually pointed out the various analogues between Israeli and SA ethnonationalist policies. I can't do much about the absolutism in the 2nd sentence of that last post though. Perhaps you should see what the people over there actually say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRI0XvpFz90
It still doesn't refute the point that it was a minority government in a country that practiced racism. It is not the same as the Palestinians that REFUSE to become Israeli citizens, and can't form their own government that doesn't want to annihilate Israel.
JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:
Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.
Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
You don't understand what Government is do you?
Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?
Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:
You don't understand what Government is do you?
Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?
Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.
Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.
JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:
Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?
Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.
Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.
Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.
Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.
Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.
The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:
Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.
Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.
Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.
Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.
The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).
See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.
Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.
T4thH wrote:Breaking News in Germany: Cease fire has been agreed between Israel and Hamas, starting Friday morning.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Israel-und-Hamas-beschliessen-Waffenruhe-article22567773.html
In German, use the implemented Google Translator.
Aaron747 wrote:casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:
Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.
Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.
Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.
The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).
See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.
Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.
Kinda one-sided analysis there. Are we forgetting about the zealot who assassinated Rabin on the eve of a deal? Against the backdrop of pro-Bibi rallies depicting Rabin in SS garb, I might add
Cadet985 wrote:Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?
casinterest wrote:Cadet985 wrote:Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?
Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.
Cadet985 wrote:Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?
T4thH wrote:casinterest wrote:Cadet985 wrote:Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?
Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.
Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.
casinterest wrote:T4thH wrote:casinterest wrote:
Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.
Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.
This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .
T4thH wrote:T4thH wrote:Breaking News in Germany: Cease fire has been agreed between Israel and Hamas, starting Friday morning.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Israel-und-Hamas-beschliessen-Waffenruhe-article22567773.html
In German, use the implemented Google Translator.
Seems to be confirmed by both sites now.
German news (German national TV)
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien/israel-waffenstillstand-palaestinenser-101.html
casinterest wrote:JJJ wrote:casinterest wrote:
Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.
Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.
Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.
Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.
The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).
See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.
Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.
Trend to limit Palestinian development over the past three years correlates with expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank
Pellegrine wrote:At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."
These people know inequality exists.
Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.
So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.
Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx
And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk
"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."
Aaron747 wrote:Pellegrine wrote:At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."
These people know inequality exists.
Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.
So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.
Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx
And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk
"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."
Masterful post. That's a great way of framing the issue - would *you* accept the level of rights/treatment X has?
Pellegrine wrote:At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."
T4thH wrote:casinterest wrote:T4thH wrote:Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.
This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .
The conflict has started in Jerusalem, in the eastern part. The whole story is not so easy. No site is unguilty. Netanjahu has successfully wagging the dog for his own political benefit, so for the next election. Issue was only, the wagging of the dog was more successfully than expected....that at least the Hamas started to participate in his game was un-expepected.
10 or 20 layers of light soaking black grey...and as said, I am not sure, which site is this with 10 or 20 layers.
par13del wrote:Aaron747 wrote:Pellegrine wrote:At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."
These people know inequality exists.
Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.
So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.
Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx
And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk
"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."
Masterful post. That's a great way of framing the issue - would *you* accept the level of rights/treatment X has?
Of course you are also going to add the caveat that if such acceptance allows the implementation of your stated goals?
How many people in the world today are rioting over the removal of their civil rights during this pandemic? As with everything with this conflict, it is not that simple.
casinterest wrote:This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .
Aaron747 wrote:That's a pretty stark red herring - loss of rights in the pandemic is largely a perception.....
dtw2hyd wrote:Pellegrine wrote:At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."
Young Americans are calling out bad treatment of anybody, I would presume the same with young Israelis (and Palestinians).
Strongmen of the world are struggling for their survival. To make themselves relevant they will go to war, even have a deal with enemy. Anything to stay in power.
Aaron747 wrote:aerosreenivas wrote:Mortyman wrote:
What makes you think that Israel actually want the Palestinians to have any land ?
I don't think either the current government or the future Israel Government, both left or right, are ever going to allot Palestinian's any land.
But things can change if the US decides to pressure Israel to achieve the 'Two State Solution' in an effective way.
For this to become a reality, Hamas has to disarm their weapons and accept Israel has a 'Soverign Country'. If they don't then it is the duty of PLO to ensure Israel that none of their territory will be used as a platform to attack Israel.
Depends on which Israelis are being asked. As this excellent video clearly shows, it largely depends on whether they are secular or religious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOFRNGlEB6k
aerosreenivas wrote:This principle is applicable even to the 'Islamic Countries'. Even there the 'Ruling Regime' should allow the 'Practice Of Other Religions' as well without any discrimination.
entdoc wrote:FWIW we have an office pool for date of next rocket and next incendiary balloon.
Winner take all.
Until hamas accepts that Israel is there to stay and negotiate in good faith to build trust (ha ha ha)
this will simply be the match with no limit on rounds. And go on forever.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
entdoc wrote:Well if hamas would accept that Israel is here to stay sop attacks and build trust then Israel could likely tone down it’s security policies.
If Israel toned down first hamas would jump on the sign of weakness and keep attacking civilians.
Certain parties in the ME see certain actions by the other party as a severe sign of weakness ……
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Sokes wrote:If religious people want to kill each other over some plot, so be it. But why to include secular people in it that just want to go along with their lives?
The Orthodox want these plots. Let them fight it out. Why to send late adolescent drafted soldiers in such a rubbish quarrel?
Sokes wrote:casinterest wrote:This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .
I learnt "eye for an eye" is meant to limit escalation. So if somebody pokes out my eye I may either demand compensation (the usual solution) or at the most poke out his eye. But I'm not allowed to poke out two eyes.
Is that interpretation correct?
If yes, where are the orthodox Jews demanding an immediate ceasefire by Israel until the victim numbers equalise?
I find it amazing that the discussion focuses so much on the attacks by Hamas. Strengthens my prejudice that people who think in pictures are unable to think in proportionality.
Truth being told, I myself don't always believe in proportionality. But then I don't spend my life studying religious scriptures.
casinterest wrote:It is not a matter of proportionality. Did Israel fire 3300 missiles into Gaza? Everyone whines about Israel defending themselves, but then they run out and coddle those that won't even stand up to the terrorists putting their homes at risk in Gaza. In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.
petertenthije wrote:casinterest wrote:It is not a matter of proportionality. Did Israel fire 3300 missiles into Gaza? Everyone whines about Israel defending themselves, but then they run out and coddle those that won't even stand up to the terrorists putting their homes at risk in Gaza. In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.
Israel did not fire 3.300 missiles, but it does not need to do so. If they fire a missile, they are pretty much guaranteed to take out whatever the missile is aimed it. Regardless whether they are going for a civilian, military or para-military target. The same does not apply to Hamas since Israel is relativey save behind their Iron Dome system.
That's not to say Hamas are justified at lobbing missiles in the thousands. Or indeed even single missiles!
Besides, casualty figures are 12 in Israel and at least 243 in Gaza. Your cries for proportionality fall flat when looking at the results instead of means.
(casualty figures from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57205968)
entdoc wrote:From a Times of Israel article today about the recent conflict.
“It’s not like it was in Vietnam and elsewhere, where things ended up with negotiations. This is just one of a [series] of wars, and a war will come when we negotiate with them [i.e., the Jews] about the end of their occupation and their leaving of Palestine,” Abu Marzouk said, according to a translation by MEMRI.
There would be no compromises allowing Israel to continue existing or the Jews to remain in the land, he assured. “Israel will come to an end just like it began, and our Palestinian people will return to their homes because injustice cannot last and people must get what is rightly theirs.”
Says it all. And why there will never be peace till one side eliminates the other utterly and totally. Sorry for not being PC.