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entdoc
Posts: 164
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 12:50 pm

Palestinian sovereigntly exists as long as you don't count border controls, property rights, and anything that can remotely be traced to some vague interpretation of security.

Sure and if they weren’t shooting rockets from Gaza or rock throwing etc in WB- if they would try to build Israel’s trust instead of repeatedly destroying any trust things might ease up.

As long as Mexico isn’t trying to missile the USA the USA doesn’t have to go crazy about what enters Mexico from the USA….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14162
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 12:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The status quo in South Africa didn't result in terrorist attacks and neighboring countries pushing open terrorism with weapons supplies.


Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf


Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.

It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.



No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 1:14 pm

Hamas ruling Gaza is the brain child of "export democracy" policy. Hamas and Netanyahu are in a symbiotic relationship, Israelis and Palestinians are paying the price.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4118
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 2:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf


Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.

It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.


No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.

Repeating it over and over won't make it true.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 2:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Aye yai yai, Americans know so little about what happened there - that is just not so. Fortunately I have been there and have SA colleagues who opened my eyes. Please at least educate yourself on why there are more parallels than you have been led to believe. The ANC's MK was basically a less well funded analogue to the PLO:

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/um ... wesizwe-mk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... africa.pdf


Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.

It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.



No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Well I proved your claims about no terror in SA to be incorrect, and factually pointed out the various analogues between Israeli and SA ethnonationalist policies. I can't do much about the absolutism in the 2nd sentence of that last post though. Perhaps you should see what the people over there actually say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRI0XvpFz90
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 3:47 pm

JJJ wrote:
par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Israel collects about 75% of tax revenue of the PA authority (import, payroll, and other assorted taxes). And because imports are forcefully routed through Israel (the PA doesn't control their own borders) it's not like they can do it some other way.

I thought that Israel remitted a lot of those taxes to the PLO, I recall a few years ago the UN and other raising a hissy fit when Israel with held some funds, is that agreement still in place?


Sure. But is your tax money really yours if they're collected by someone else and depend on being in good terms with them to actually get them? Plus Israel gets their cut, too. Or "administrative fee" using their term.

Are you really a self-governing territory if 60% of it is off-limits for "security" reasons and under direct military occupation of a foreign power?

At best you're a Bantustan, or a native reservation.

I won't draw parallels to the Brexit debate, but will only say that such is not resulting in rockets and bombs falling, so in some quarters, it is a start of a civil dialog.
However, since we cannot separate the West Bank from Gaza.....
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 4:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.

It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.



No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Well I proved your claims about no terror in SA to be incorrect, and factually pointed out the various analogues between Israeli and SA ethnonationalist policies. I can't do much about the absolutism in the 2nd sentence of that last post though. Perhaps you should see what the people over there actually say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRI0XvpFz90


It still doesn't refute the point that it was a minority government in a country that practiced racism. It is not the same as the Palestinians that REFUSE to become Israeli citizens, and can't form their own government that doesn't want to annihilate Israel.

As for your last post, it ignores the overwhelming majority of religious zealots on both sides. It is like asking Republicans to actually refute trump.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 4:34 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Not only that. There really wasn't that much of a difference between the PLO and the early political-military factions (Irgun, Lehi and even Haganah) that went on to become the Israeli establishment.

It's the old terrorist/freedom fighter duality.


No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.

Repeating it over and over won't make it true.



You don't understand what Government is do you?
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 4:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.

Repeating it over and over won't make it true.


You don't understand what Government is do you?


Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?

Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 4:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


No, there is a huge difference. The Palestinians continue to work towards annihilation, and want all the land back. That is how they choose their leaders and take their funding . To even get both sides to sit and talk will take years of no fire between the sides.


Well I proved your claims about no terror in SA to be incorrect, and factually pointed out the various analogues between Israeli and SA ethnonationalist policies. I can't do much about the absolutism in the 2nd sentence of that last post though. Perhaps you should see what the people over there actually say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRI0XvpFz90


It still doesn't refute the point that it was a minority government in a country that practiced racism. It is not the same as the Palestinians that REFUSE to become Israeli citizens, and can't form their own government that doesn't want to annihilate Israel.


At what point have Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza offered Israeli citizenship? (East Jerusalem is a different case)

Hell, residents from Gaza and the West bank are explicitly subject to a special law which makes them ineligible for automatic citizenship if they marry an Israeli.

Seriously, try to understand the facts on the ground first before making broad assumptions that don't pass the most basic sniff test. Reality is much more complicated than the simple black & white situation you are trying to paint.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 5:12 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Again with "Palestinians". Again with pretending Hamas ruling Gaza is representative of all Palestinians.

Repeating it over and over won't make it true.


You don't understand what Government is do you?


Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?

Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.



Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 6:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

You don't understand what Government is do you?


Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?

Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.


Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.


Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.

Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.

Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.

The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 7:13 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Do you understand that the PA (the closest thing Palestinians have to an internationally recognized government and who recognizes and is recognized by Israel) doesn't control Gaza since 2006?

Gaza and the West Bank are de facto separate entities since the split. Separate entieies with separate governments.


Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.


Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.

Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.

Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.

The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).


See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.

Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 7:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.


Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.

Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.

Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.

The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).


See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.

Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.


Kinda one-sided analysis there. Are we forgetting about the zealot who assassinated Rabin on the eve of a deal? Against the backdrop of pro-Bibi rallies depicting Rabin in SS garb, I might add :crazy:
 
T4thH
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 7:59 pm

Breaking News in Germany: Cease fire has been agreed between Israel and Hamas, starting Friday morning.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Israel-und-Hamas-beschliessen-Waffenruhe-article22567773.html
In German, use the implemented Google Translator.
 
T4thH
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 8:34 pm

T4thH wrote:
Breaking News in Germany: Cease fire has been agreed between Israel and Hamas, starting Friday morning.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Israel-und-Hamas-beschliessen-Waffenruhe-article22567773.html
In German, use the implemented Google Translator.

Seems to be confirmed by both sites now.
German news (German national TV)
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien/israel-waffenstillstand-palaestinenser-101.html
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 8:51 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.

Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.

Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.

The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).


See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.

Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.


Kinda one-sided analysis there. Are we forgetting about the zealot who assassinated Rabin on the eve of a deal? Against the backdrop of pro-Bibi rallies depicting Rabin in SS garb, I might add :crazy:



Not forgetting, I have been consistent that their are religious zealots on both sides.
 
Cadet985
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 9:37 pm

Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 9:41 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?


Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.
 
T4thH
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 10:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?


Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.

Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 20, 2021 10:04 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?


Who is good and who is bad aside, Irondome = $40,000, Qassam = $800
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 12:23 am

T4thH wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Why does Israel always have to initiate ceasefires? Why can’t Hamas ever stop their crap so Israel doesn’t have to defend itself in the first place?


Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.

Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.



This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .
 
T4thH
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 12:36 am

casinterest wrote:
T4thH wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Hamas doesn't give a flip about innocent lives in their territories or in Israel. They see it as a win in their battle against Fatah and Israel.

Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.



This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .

The conflict has started in Jerusalem, in the eastern part. The whole story is not so easy. No site is unguilty. Netanjahu has successfully wagging the dog for his own political benefit, so for the next election. Issue was only, the wagging of the dog was more successfully than expected....that at least the Hamas started to participate in his game was un-expepected.

10 or 20 layers of light soaking black grey...and as said, I am not sure, which site is this with 10 or 20 layers.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 4:49 am

T4thH wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Breaking News in Germany: Cease fire has been agreed between Israel and Hamas, starting Friday morning.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Israel-und-Hamas-beschliessen-Waffenruhe-article22567773.html
In German, use the implemented Google Translator.

Seems to be confirmed by both sites now.
German news (German national TV)
https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/asien/israel-waffenstillstand-palaestinenser-101.html


As good news as we're going to get, for now. Unfortunately it's back to the same 'ol status quo.
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 6:07 am

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Exactly, and they voted for HAMAS in Gaza, and in the West Bank they can't make peace because they worry about losing to Hamas. They have separate entities, but they both are infighting. The PA/Fatah wants Hamas weakened and discredited because they can't go for peace without Hamas being weakened.


Let's leave it that you clearly don't know much about Palestinian politics. Or Israeli for that matter.

Hamas is where it is because, first of all, it was propped to it's current position by Israel. And second because Fatah strategy of recognizing and negotiating with Israel has not given Palestinians a single tangible benefit.

Israel keeps evicting Palestinians to make room for settlers, keeps a stronghold on Palestinian economy, keeps preventing Palestinians from moving, even between Palestinian areas and so on.

The choice for Israel is simple. Either incorporate Palestinians as full citizens or give back the settled territory (or an equivalent part elsewhere) to a sovereign Palestinian state. Gaza would take all of 10 minutes to boot Hamas out (or more likely they would try to portray as a result of their holy struggle, if there's anything Hamas loves is a good photo-op).


See you keep forgetting how everyone keeps propping up the terrorists' in Palestine, and 40 years of negotiations have not solved it. It isn't a magic fix, because every single time Palestine gets close to the peace table, the fundamentalists keep running up and jumping to undermine it.


Are forgetting it was Israel who supported the fundamentalists against the PLO when it came the time to talk? How Rabin was assassinated by their own? The group of parties Netanyahu has surrounded himself who call of a Jewish-only state in Judea and Samaria (i.e. the West Bank, Gaza is a dump, no one wants it), the harassment and lynchings of Arab-Israelis in Israel proper.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu ... ent-blocs/

42% of Israelis support annexation of the West Bank (27% for full annexation + 15% for annexation of Area C which is 60% of the territory).

If you think Palestinians are bad faith negotiators scratch a little under the surface of Israel's position.

Israel isn't evicting settlers at this point. They are evicting non paying renters from homes owned by others. The issue that will need to be resolved in the peace talks are the settlements that keep getting built on land that would go to Palestine under a new two state solution.


Jerusalem is just one piece in the puzzle.

Bedouin villages keep being demolished:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210 ... 86th-time/

Israeli settlements in the West Bank keep being expanded.
https://www.un.org/press/en/2020/sc14360.doc.htm

Palestinian people still find it impossible to navigate building permits (just another source of tax revenue for Israel)
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.8403807

And the reason is still the same:

Trend to limit Palestinian development over the past three years correlates with expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank


Just because it doesn't make the news in the US it doesn't mean it's not happening. Hop on a flight and see for yourself, talk to people on both sides and you'll fix your black&white idea of the situation.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 7:55 am

At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."

These people know inequality exists.

Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.

So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.

Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx

And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk

"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 8:22 am

Pellegrine wrote:
At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."

These people know inequality exists.

Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.

So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.

Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx

And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk

"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."


Masterful post. That's a great way of framing the issue - would *you* accept the level of rights/treatment X has?
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 11:53 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."

These people know inequality exists.

Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.

So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.

Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx

And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk

"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."


Masterful post. That's a great way of framing the issue - would *you* accept the level of rights/treatment X has?

Of course you are also going to add the caveat that if such acceptance allows the implementation of your stated goals?
How many people in the world today are rioting over the removal of their civil rights during this pandemic? As with everything with this conflict, it is not that simple.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 12:07 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."


Young Americans are calling out bad treatment of anybody, I would presume the same with young Israelis (and Palestinians).

Strongmen of the world are struggling for their survival. To make themselves relevant they will go to war, even have a deal with enemy. Anything to stay in power.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 1:28 pm

T4thH wrote:
casinterest wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Sorry, but in this conflict, there in no withe or black, only grey...10 or 20 layer of light soaking black-grey....
And I am not so sure, which site is this one, with the 10 layers or the 20 layers of light soaking black-grey.
And there are of course the civilians on both sites, who are harmed most.



This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .

The conflict has started in Jerusalem, in the eastern part. The whole story is not so easy. No site is unguilty. Netanjahu has successfully wagging the dog for his own political benefit, so for the next election. Issue was only, the wagging of the dog was more successfully than expected....that at least the Hamas started to participate in his game was un-expepected.

10 or 20 layers of light soaking black grey...and as said, I am not sure, which site is this with 10 or 20 layers.


Jerusalem was a police and court issue that was no resolved yet. Hamas and Gaza was a terrorist attack. The not so easy part is trying to disseminate Terrorism from domestic issues. Unless you are really saying Hamas already owns the west bank?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 21, 2021 2:04 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."

These people know inequality exists.

Ask them the reverse question. Would you like to be treated like "x". They would always say no.

So, why does the world accept treatment for Palestinians like that? Every Palestinian is not a terrorist proxy, they are victims of circumstance.

Everyone is deserving of human rights. They are inalienable rights and universal, no matter who the person.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/pages/w ... ights.aspx

And whoever says anything against them, I have Nelson Mandela on my side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcGTjAFGjk

"One political mistake, that their analysts make, is that their enemies should be our enemies."
"For anybody who is changing their principals depending on with whom they are dealing, that is no one who can lead a nation."


Masterful post. That's a great way of framing the issue - would *you* accept the level of rights/treatment X has?

Of course you are also going to add the caveat that if such acceptance allows the implementation of your stated goals?
How many people in the world today are rioting over the removal of their civil rights during this pandemic? As with everything with this conflict, it is not that simple.


That's a pretty stark red herring - loss of rights in the pandemic is largely a perception, perhaps with the exception of moving about after curfew hours. In any case handling of a public health crisis is not an analogue of annexations across borders.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 3:59 am

casinterest wrote:
This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .

I learnt "eye for an eye" is meant to limit escalation. So if somebody pokes out my eye I may either demand compensation (the usual solution) or at the most poke out his eye. But I'm not allowed to poke out two eyes.
Is that interpretation correct?
If yes, where are the orthodox Jews demanding an immediate ceasefire by Israel until the victim numbers equalise?

I find it amazing that the discussion focuses so much on the attacks by Hamas. Strengthens my prejudice that people who think in pictures are unable to think in proportionality.

Truth being told, I myself don't always believe in proportionality. But then I don't spend my life studying religious scriptures.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 4:40 am

@Aaron:
You are a nice guy. I feel touched how you as a Jew show empathy to the Palestinians. And I believe you are representative for probably the majority of Jews.
But you are wasting your energy on a fight you can't win.
As a German I tried to figure for more than half my life what explains the Holocaust. And I finally settled on one sentence.
"Good people don't kill bad people. "

Therefore 90% liberals can't win against 10% of people with Weltanschauung.
The right wins the election. Liberals don't like it. But after all, they are democrats. So if the government tells a soldier from a liberal house to close the mosque, he obeys against better judgement.
But if somebody like Rabin gets elected, somebody with Weltanschauung will kill him. Here the left gets sad and mourns and does nothing.
If liberals on the day Rabin was killed had to slaughter 300 hardliner politicians Israel would look different today. But you didn't. Nor would liberals do it in future. So any hope is useless. Stop wasting your time.

Whom I really admire are US soldiers of the Vietnam War. Why did Germany not have such soldiers when it invaded Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 5:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
That's a pretty stark red herring - loss of rights in the pandemic is largely a perception.....

Exactly, and as with all perceptions, it is usually up to the individual. Palestinians on the West Bank are somehow being regarded as different from those in Gaza because we keep saying Gaza is ruled by Hamas, do those on the ground make that distinction or just those of us on the outside looking in?

At the end of this - now that a cease fire is in place - just as the last time a few years ago, Hamas and those in Gaza will say that they stood up to Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians in Jerusalem, and they did so with blood and missiles, while those Palestinians on the West Bank did........the debate about which side was more effective can be endless.

Rebuilding on both sides is starting again, just as with the last time, nothing fundamental has changed to make me believe that there won't be a repeat in a few years time, based on the situation on the ground, there will always be something that can be used as a trigger. Let's see how much tolerance each has for skirmishes going forward, after the last Gaza battle, incidents at the border were a daily protest item - usually after prayers, rock throwing and the occasional return shots, then an occasional missile falling short or intercepted, the next couple weeks will shape how daily life will progress.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 9:54 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
At the end of the day, how many Israelis or Zionists would stand up and say I would like to be treated like a Palestinian. None. Just like in America how no white people would stand up and say, "I would like to be treated like a Black person today."


Young Americans are calling out bad treatment of anybody, I would presume the same with young Israelis (and Palestinians).

Strongmen of the world are struggling for their survival. To make themselves relevant they will go to war, even have a deal with enemy. Anything to stay in power.


I like the young generation. I see them doing the good work. I hope they will not be poisoned by the past and past generations hate for each other.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 11:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
aerosreenivas wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


What makes you think that Israel actually want the Palestinians to have any land ?


I don't think either the current government or the future Israel Government, both left or right, are ever going to allot Palestinian's any land.

But things can change if the US decides to pressure Israel to achieve the 'Two State Solution' in an effective way.

For this to become a reality, Hamas has to disarm their weapons and accept Israel has a 'Soverign Country'. If they don't then it is the duty of PLO to ensure Israel that none of their territory will be used as a platform to attack Israel.


Depends on which Israelis are being asked. As this excellent video clearly shows, it largely depends on whether they are secular or religious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOFRNGlEB6k


Saw this video. It is excellent. Thanks for sharing.
Like in any religion 'Othodox Or Fundamentalists' are totally against 'Secularism' for the fear of 'Loosing Their Identity'.

In a Democracy, everyone should understand that God has created all equal. None of them need to worry about being 'Overthrown By Another Religious Group' from their birthplace.

I'm a 'Libertarian'. I believe that so long as a person of another faith is seeking an opportunity to build a new life in that country and is abiding by the 'Rules Laid Down By The Elected Government', he definitely deserves to own a property, run a business and right to vote. He should only ensure that he doesn't break any law.

So, in the case of Israel, there is definitely a room for 'Co-Existence' for both Jews and Muslims to live together with mutual respect shown to each other.

And the 'Ruling Government' should not play any politics by favouring only the majority community and ignoring the legitimate rights of the minorities.

This principle is applicable even to the 'Islamic Countries'. Even there the 'Ruling Regime' should allow the 'Practice Of Other Religions' as well without any discrimination.

Because if the 'Islamic World' is expecting the Isrealis to show respect to Palestinian Muslims, then they should also reciprocate the same to the 'Jews And Christians' as well.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 12:18 pm

Without seeing a 'Real Path-Breaking Resolution' in the Palestinian - Israel Conflict, a 'Cease Fire' is just a 'Interval Period' to get both the sides 'Prepared For Another Clash' to 'Witness More Dead People In Installments' on both sides.

This time we saw approx 200 people from Gaza side and 12 or so from Israel side loosing their lives so soon. In the next battle who knows, it could be more.

Neither Hamas or the Israel Government is winning in this never-ending battle. For the sake of people's lives let Hamas surrender their arms and ammunitions. They know very well that they are no-match to Israel's 'Military Power'.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sat May 22, 2021 12:59 pm

aerosreenivas wrote:
This principle is applicable even to the 'Islamic Countries'. Even there the 'Ruling Regime' should allow the 'Practice Of Other Religions' as well without any discrimination.

We are told in some versions of Islam, non-Muslims are infidels and until they are converted.....
Religious tolerance in western religions that we see today was not always the case, we also know that it is not indicative of other religions.
In the ME Christianity is minor, all other religions that dominate the region are not tolerant of other faiths to allow open worship, are there any non-secular nations in the region?
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 4:44 am

FWIW we have an office pool for date of next rocket and next incendiary balloon.
Winner take all.
Until hamas accepts that Israel is there to stay and negotiate in good faith to build trust (ha ha ha)
this will simply be the match with no limit on rounds. And go on forever.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 6:23 am

entdoc wrote:
FWIW we have an office pool for date of next rocket and next incendiary balloon.
Winner take all.
Until hamas accepts that Israel is there to stay and negotiate in good faith to build trust (ha ha ha)
this will simply be the match with no limit on rounds. And go on forever.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


The same can be said of Israel pursuing security policies that do not ensure said result. Something has to be done about the living conditions in Gaza and WB, and Israel has the ability to do that. Otherwise, people will continue opting for whatever bad leaders snow them over.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 7:06 am

Well if hamas would accept that Israel is here to stay sop attacks and build trust then Israel could likely tone down it’s security policies.
If Israel toned down first hamas would jump on the sign of weakness and keep attacking civilians.
Certain parties in the ME see certain actions by the other party as a severe sign of weakness ……


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Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 9:06 am

entdoc wrote:
Well if hamas would accept that Israel is here to stay sop attacks and build trust then Israel could likely tone down it’s security policies.
If Israel toned down first hamas would jump on the sign of weakness and keep attacking civilians.
Certain parties in the ME see certain actions by the other party as a severe sign of weakness ……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have to agree with you. I also believe that "dominance and submission" is the name of the game. I also don't believe that Palestinians are fit to rule themselves. I even agree with Netanyahu that Israel needs the West Bank for security and can't give it away for a Palestinian state.
But do you mean to say that Jews have to quarrel over some plots in Jerusalem to teach Hamas a lesson? Same is true for distribution of water.

I can even understand if Jews are frightened of more and more Palestinians to get the vote.
There is no need for vote if the Israeli government gives Palestinians preferential treatment instead. Is this the case? Has it ever been the case anywhere that people without vote got preference?
If no, I guess Palestinians need the vote.

This can never be a sincere discussion. There will be a point supporters of Netanyahu can't agree, for it contradicts their Weltanschauung.

If religious people want to kill each other over some plot, so be it. But why to include secular people in it that just want to go along with their lives?
The Orthodox want these plots. Let them fight it out. Why to send late adolescent drafted soldiers in such a rubbish quarrel?
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 12:32 pm

Sokes wrote:
If religious people want to kill each other over some plot, so be it. But why to include secular people in it that just want to go along with their lives?
The Orthodox want these plots. Let them fight it out. Why to send late adolescent drafted soldiers in such a rubbish quarrel?

I know you have broken this down to a simplistic point, so to follow suit, the religious folks were quite content to throw stones, march and play the "civilized" court game, they were doing so for a couple weeks until to show support and solidarity, another party decided to get involve and make an ultimatum, hence wash rinse repeat.

I accept that we would like to see the issue in simple terms for easy resolutions, so far that has not been the case the world over, including if we believe that this all started in 1948....
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 3:50 pm

Sokes wrote:
casinterest wrote:
This conflict was started by Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately. There is a very dark shade of Grey there, that is very black. Israel was in their rights to retaliate .

I learnt "eye for an eye" is meant to limit escalation. So if somebody pokes out my eye I may either demand compensation (the usual solution) or at the most poke out his eye. But I'm not allowed to poke out two eyes.
Is that interpretation correct?
If yes, where are the orthodox Jews demanding an immediate ceasefire by Israel until the victim numbers equalise?

I find it amazing that the discussion focuses so much on the attacks by Hamas. Strengthens my prejudice that people who think in pictures are unable to think in proportionality.

Truth being told, I myself don't always believe in proportionality. But then I don't spend my life studying religious scriptures.



It is not a matter of proportionality. Did Israel fire 3300 missiles into Gaza? Everyone whines about Israel defending themselves, but then they run out and coddle those that won't even stand up to the terrorists putting their homes at risk in Gaza. In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 4:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
It is not a matter of proportionality. Did Israel fire 3300 missiles into Gaza? Everyone whines about Israel defending themselves, but then they run out and coddle those that won't even stand up to the terrorists putting their homes at risk in Gaza. In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.

Israel did not fire 3.300 missiles, but it does not need to do so. If they fire a missile, they are pretty much guaranteed to take out whatever the missile is aimed it. Regardless whether they are going for a civilian, military or para-military target. The same does not apply to Hamas since Israel is relativey save behind their Iron Dome system.

That's not to say Hamas are justified at lobbing missiles in the thousands. Or indeed even single missiles!

Besides, casualty figures are 12 in Israel and at least 243 in Gaza. Your cries for proportionality fall flat when looking at the results instead of means.

(casualty figures from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57205968)
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 4:21 pm

petertenthije wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It is not a matter of proportionality. Did Israel fire 3300 missiles into Gaza? Everyone whines about Israel defending themselves, but then they run out and coddle those that won't even stand up to the terrorists putting their homes at risk in Gaza. In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.

Israel did not fire 3.300 missiles, but it does not need to do so. If they fire a missile, they are pretty much guaranteed to take out whatever the missile is aimed it. Regardless whether they are going for a civilian, military or para-military target. The same does not apply to Hamas since Israel is relativey save behind their Iron Dome system.

That's not to say Hamas are justified at lobbing missiles in the thousands. Or indeed even single missiles!

Besides, casualty figures are 12 in Israel and at least 243 in Gaza. Your cries for proportionality fall flat when looking at the results instead of means.

(casualty figures from the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57205968)



And how many died in Gaza because their rockets failed? It is known that 10-20% of Hamas rockets never leave Gaza. I am sure proportionality of deaths and what caused it isn't big on the Hamas side of the things. The same as actually not stopping the firing of rockets. There is a serious lack of accountability in Gaza that is not being addressed. In Israel., the citizens depend on the Iron dome, but they have also built shelters and work hard to warn their citizens of what is occurring. The fact that 255 people are dead is directly attributable to the lack of accountability in Gaza for themselves and for others. They are making themselves political pawns for terrorists.

The other alternative is that Israel or the UN takes over Gaza again and runs security and patrols.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 5:46 pm

A question, when did proportionality become a principle for mankind to live by, after WWII?
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 7:14 pm

From a Times of Israel article today about the recent conflict.

“It’s not like it was in Vietnam and elsewhere, where things ended up with negotiations. This is just one of a [series] of wars, and a war will come when we negotiate with them [i.e., the Jews] about the end of their occupation and their leaving of Palestine,” Abu Marzouk said, according to a translation by MEMRI.

There would be no compromises allowing Israel to continue existing or the Jews to remain in the land, he assured. “Israel will come to an end just like it began, and our Palestinian people will return to their homes because injustice cannot last and people must get what is rightly theirs.”

Says it all. And why there will never be peace till one side eliminates the other utterly and totally. Sorry for not being PC.


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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 7:14 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamass-fo ... dium=email


Link to above


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AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 147
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 23, 2021 8:55 pm

entdoc wrote:
From a Times of Israel article today about the recent conflict.

“It’s not like it was in Vietnam and elsewhere, where things ended up with negotiations. This is just one of a [series] of wars, and a war will come when we negotiate with them [i.e., the Jews] about the end of their occupation and their leaving of Palestine,” Abu Marzouk said, according to a translation by MEMRI.

There would be no compromises allowing Israel to continue existing or the Jews to remain in the land, he assured. “Israel will come to an end just like it began, and our Palestinian people will return to their homes because injustice cannot last and people must get what is rightly theirs.”

Says it all. And why there will never be peace till one side eliminates the other utterly and totally. Sorry for not being PC.


I think most in the US and Europe that are on the pro Palestinian side, also are on the side of those that say that Jewish people have the right to live there.

While for extremists on both sides, sharing the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan is not wanted, I believe that most people want to live in peace and prosperity and that Israelis and Palistinians are no different from the rest of the world. Or in other words, I'm more opimistic than you.

It is not for me to say how Palistinians and Israelis must live together, since the only solutions that might work are the ones BOTH agree to.
I have my opinions on solutions but I'm not interested in discussing them in a thread were the main raison d'être seems to throw blame around.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
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