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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 1:25 am

entdoc wrote:
From a Times of Israel article today about the recent conflict.

“It’s not like it was in Vietnam and elsewhere, where things ended up with negotiations. This is just one of a [series] of wars, and a war will come when we negotiate with them [i.e., the Jews] about the end of their occupation and their leaving of Palestine,” Abu Marzouk said, according to a translation by MEMRI.

There would be no compromises allowing Israel to continue existing or the Jews to remain in the land, he assured. “Israel will come to an end just like it began, and our Palestinian people will return to their homes because injustice cannot last and people must get what is rightly theirs.”

Says it all. And why there will never be peace till one side eliminates the other utterly and totally. Sorry for not being PC.


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Many young Palestinians do not subscribe to such extreme views, just as many young Israelis don’t subscribe to Orthodox pronouncements on the land and ‘settler rights’. It is those voices that will have to eventually push out the ones with heels dug in over religious zealotry. The ‘elimination’ argument only feeds extremist self-rationalization and is completely toxic. There’s nothing Jewish about it.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 4:46 am

Too bad such young Palestinians as you say do not take to the streets and show this side of their people. As do all the protesters on the Israeli side protesting in both directions. I am quite doubtful that such a camp even exists on the Palestine side.
Seems this is doomed to go on forever as in the Star Trek episode “let that be your last battlefield “.


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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 5:09 am

entdoc wrote:
Too bad such young Palestinians as you say do not take to the streets and show this side of their people. As do all the protesters on the Israeli side protesting in both directions. I am quite doubtful that such a camp even exists on the Palestine side.
Seems this is doomed to go on forever as in the Star Trek episode “let that be your last battlefield “.

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It is obvious they exist if you talk to young Palestinians or hear what they have to say online. It seems you are unaware of the difference of environment. In Gaza, for example, it would be rather dangerous to express such views, particularly amongst Hamas militants. Israel has a basic recognition of right to speech in its basic law, and the nearest authorities are not going to come bash a student's face in for saying government policy or settlements are wrong.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 5:42 am

So as hamas rules with such an iron fist as you say, and they do,
And they are obviously NOT changing their charter,
There are only a handful of possibilities

1-Total annihilation of hamas which comes with a heavy price tag but then maybe some future hope for the regular folk
2-Revolution from within also with a heavy price tag and possibly same future hope but far less likely than 1.
3- Bele and Lokai.


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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 5:57 am

entdoc wrote:
So as hamas rules with such an iron fist as you say, and they do,
And they are obviously NOT changing their charter,
There are only a handful of possibilities

1-Total annihilation of hamas which comes with a heavy price tag but then maybe some future hope for the regular folk
2-Revolution from within also with a heavy price tag and possibly same future hope but far less likely than 1.
3- Bele and Lokai.


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Strange response given that one post ago you were saying you doubted any such camp on the Palestinian side existed. :scratchchin:

Also it would really behoove you to learn how to use the quote function.
 
Newark727
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 6:04 am

Total annihilation of Hamas will absolutely not happen. The hardliners in Israel need them, just like Hamas needs the settlers and the Israeli bombings. They feed off each other. The real threat to ethnic nationalists and religious extremists is never the radicals - it's the moderates.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 6:10 am

Newark727 wrote:
Total annihilation of Hamas will absolutely not happen. The hardliners in Israel need them, just like Hamas needs the settlers and the Israeli bombings. They feed off each other. The real threat to ethnic nationalists and religious extremists is never the radicals - it's the moderates.


Precisely - this is all about power, moreso than any other parameter.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 6:44 am

Newark727 wrote:
Total annihilation of Hamas will absolutely not happen. The hardliners in Israel need them, just like Hamas needs the settlers and the Israeli bombings. They feed off each other. The real threat to ethnic nationalists and religious extremists is never the radicals - it's the moderates.


Pretty much. The quotes for some of the parties in Netanyahu's sphere (present or past) could be cut & pasted into Hamas', just with reversed roles. The "From the river to the sea" quote that seems to irk some posters here is quite present there, too.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 24, 2021 7:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
entdoc wrote:
So as hamas rules with such an iron fist as you say, and they do,
And they are obviously NOT changing their charter,
There are only a handful of possibilities

1-Total annihilation of hamas which comes with a heavy price tag but then maybe some future hope for the regular folk
2-Revolution from within also with a heavy price tag and possibly same future hope but far less likely than 1.
3- Bele and Lokai.


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Strange response given that one post ago you were saying you doubted any such camp on the Palestinian side existed. :scratchchin:

Also it would really behoove you to learn how to use the quote function.

Well I tried the quote.
I do doubt such a camp exists in Gaza.
But logically number 2 is a possibility at least theoretically.
I also do not expect number 1 will transpire.
Leaves number 3. Bele and Lokai.
For those unaware look up the Star Trek episode. Starred the great Frank Gorshin.


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Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 2:37 am

par13del wrote:
I k now you have broken this down to a simplistic point, so to follow suit, the religious folks were quite content to throw stones, march and play the "civilized" court game, they were doing so for a couple weeks until to show support and solidarity, another party decided to get involve and make an ultimatum, hence wash rinse repeat.

I'm sure if I understand you.
Palestinians throw stones. But they don't play court games.
The other party giving the ultimatum must be the Hamas demanding withdrawal of security forces from the temple Mount.
The following violence is "wash, rinse, repeat".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Isra ... ine_crisis
 
Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 3:49 am

casinterest wrote:
In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.

And that's why the world still takes Israel's side.
I myself met Palestinian Israelis. They studied in Germany. Haven't met any other Arab students in Germany. They told me half of Palestinian Israelis vote for radicals no Jew is willing to speak with.

Is it the Palestinians' own fault then? After all they are the lucky ones. Which other Arabs, leave alone Palestinians, have their quality of life?

Or one can see it the other way round. What is so upsetting to them that their heart is so closed with hatred?

-Somewhere I saw that roads with Palestinians in Jerusalem get much worse municipal service than ones with Jews.

-Water supply distribution for agriculture.

-"Israel's laws allow Jews to file claims over land in the East Jerusalem which they owned prior to 1948, but reject Palestinian claims over land in Israel which they owned. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Ja ... ty_dispute

In my opinion these are all unnecessary conflicts. Israel is a rich society. It can import food. Why to quarrel with backward Palestinians for water?

Israel's Jerusalem policy indicates to me that the government is run by Taliban minded people. Yes, Jews need their own country. But this is not about security. It's about Weltanschauung. The Palestinians are right to feel illtreated. The Israeli right has no sense of justice.

How do the Orthodox get the liberals to do their work and finance their living after ruining all chances for peace?

Can somebody explain to me what are the different motivations for Israeli Jews to vote for the right? Hard to imagine that religious motivation crosses 20%. Is it mostly fear turned hatred? Is is a concern that the left is too utopian to guarantee security? I also distrust people with ethics of ultimate end. Makes me wonder whom I would vote for.

Somehow I have a feeling that lot of Israelis vote against their own interest, both Jews as well as Palestinians.
Reminds me of India.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 4:07 am

Sokes wrote:
Israel's Jerusalem policy indicates to me that the government is run by Taliban minded people. Yes, Jews need their own country. But this is not about security. It's about Weltanschauung. The Palestinians are right to feel illtreated. The Israeli right has no sense of justice.

How do the Orthodox get the liberals to do their work and finance their living after ruining all chances for peace?


It's an important question. If the Orthodox are as pious as they claim, then justice should be an overruling concern. But of course it isn't really about theological values for the Israeli right - just power. Moderate parties don't have a chance because they don't hype up the dangers of neighbors and they don't vibrate the right emotional strings with immigrants from Russia, who have fueled much of the Israeli right's growth since the 1990s. Young people naturally mostly just want the economy to grow and enjoy stability, unless they happen to be very religious. But as you say, that's becoming exceptional.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 5:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Moderate parties don't have a chance because they don't hype up the dangers of neighbors and they don't vibrate the right emotional strings with immigrants from Russia, who have fueled much of the Israeli right's growth since the 1990s. Young people naturally mostly just want the economy to grow and enjoy stability, unless they happen to be very religious. But as you say, that's becoming exceptional.

You mean to say stability becomes exceptional?

I conclude it is fear why many people vote right. In this case the left has to shift right. Even I feel Israel can't give away the West Bank. But I don't see how this is related to treating Palestinians nice or not nice or who should settle there.

The British in India after 1919 and seriously after the 1937 election (Government of India act 1935) had dualism. Indians ruled in the provinces over schools, irrigation, health... But foreign policy, defense, taxes... remained with the British at the center. One can't know how this experiment would have worked out. In 1939 WW2 started and enormous resourced were used for the war effort. And since Churchill starved a few million Bengalis to death at the threat of Japanese invasion the British themselves found it inappropriate after the war to stay longer. I wonder if Israel could try this. Foreign policy, defense, police and judiciary would have to stay with Israel.

Why are Russian Jews mostly hardliners? Do they admire authority? Did they face lot of antisemitism in Russia? Do they have inferiority complex which they try to compensate by group achievements and dominance over others?

The last point by the way may explain why dealing with Palestinians in Gaza/ West Bank is
/ will be difficult. Of course, that's pure speculation.

Would Israeli liberals agree to the sentence
"Only Nixon could go to China." ?
Last edited by Sokes on Tue May 25, 2021 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 5:07 am

Sokes wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Moderate parties don't have a chance because they don't hype up the dangers of neighbors and they don't vibrate the right emotional strings with immigrants from Russia, who have fueled much of the Israeli right's growth since the 1990s. Young people naturally mostly just want the economy to grow and enjoy stability, unless they happen to be very religious. But as you say, that's becoming exceptional.

You mean to say stability becomes exceptional?

I conclude it is fear why many people vote right. In this case the left has to shift right. Even I feel Israel can't give away the West Bank. But I don't see how this is related to treating Palestinians nice or not nice or who should settle there.

The British in India after 1919 and seriously after the 1937 election (Government of India act 1935) had dualism. Indians ruled in the provinces over schools, irrigation, health... But foreign policy, defense, taxes... remained with the British at the center. One can't know how this experiment would have worked out. In 1939 WW2 started and enormous resourced were used for the war effort. And since Churchill starved a few million Bengalis to death at the threat of Japanese invasion the British themselves found it inappropriate after the war to stay longer. I wonder if Israel could try this. Defense, police and judiciary would have to stay with Israel.

Why are Russian Jews mostly hardliners? Do they admire authority? Did they face lot of antisemitism in Russia? Do they have inferiority complex which they try to compensate by group achievements and dominance over others?

The last point by the way may explain why dealing with Palestinians in Gaza/ West Bank is
/ will be difficult. Of course, that's pure speculation.

Would Israeli liberals agree to the sentence
"Only Nixon could go to China." ?


Sorry no, I meant that very religious young people are becoming exceptional.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 4:09 pm

Sokes wrote:
Re: Rocket attacks in Israel
by Sokes » 24 May 2021 23:49

casinterest wrote:
In Israel I saw plenty of peace rallies. I didn't see much out of Gaza in terms of turning out to put down Hamas.

And that's why the world still takes Israel's side.
I myself met Palestinian Israelis. They studied in Germany. Haven't met any other Arab students in Germany. They told me half of Palestinian Israelis vote for radicals no Jew is willing to speak with.

Is it the Palestinians' own fault then? After all they are the lucky ones. Which other Arabs, leave alone Palestinians, have their quality of life?

Or one can see it the other way round. What is so upsetting to them that their heart is so closed with hatred?

-Somewhere I saw that roads with Palestinians in Jerusalem get much worse municipal service than ones with Jews.

-Water supply distribution for agriculture.

-"Israel's laws allow Jews to file claims over land in the East Jerusalem which they owned prior to 1948, but reject Palestinian claims over land in Israel which they owned. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Ja ... ty_dispute

In my opinion these are all unnecessary conflicts. Israel is a rich society. It can import food. Why to quarrel with backward Palestinians for water?

Israel's Jerusalem policy indicates to me that the government is run by Taliban minded people. Yes, Jews need their own country. But this is not about security. It's about Weltanschauung. The Palestinians are right to feel illtreated. The Israeli right has no sense of justice.

How do the Orthodox get the liberals to do their work and finance their living after ruining all chances for peace?

Can somebody explain to me what are the different motivations for Israeli Jews to vote for the right? Hard to imagine that religious motivation crosses 20%. Is it mostly fear turned hatred? Is is a concern that the left is too utopian to guarantee security? I also distrust people with ethics of ultimate end. Makes me wonder whom I would vote for.

Somehow I have a feeling that lot of Israelis vote against their own interest, both Jews as well as Palestinians.
Reminds me of India.


There are decades and centuries of issues throughout Israel. However the issues with Palestine will not be resolved by continuing to fund terrorist efforts.

there are currently plans underway to help Gaza rebuild, but the issue is how to keep the supplies out of the hands of Hamas?

Winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinians should be a goal for all ,but there are political and religious issues standing in the way from all sides.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 4:22 pm

casinterest wrote:

Winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinians should be a goal for all ,but there are political and religious issues standing in the way from all sides.


We can certainly agree on that! :yes:
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 5:25 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Total annihilation of Hamas will absolutely not happen. The hardliners in Israel need them, just like Hamas needs the settlers and the Israeli bombings. They feed off each other. The real threat to ethnic nationalists and religious extremists is never the radicals - it's the moderates.


Why not? Total annihilation of Hamas is not going to harm Israel by any means. Because Israel anyways has its sympathy and recognition from the world community, like Europe, USA, Australia and many other countries of the world including India. Israel is not going to be punished or sanctioned by any countries if they go for an all-out war against the Hamas. So, Israel should fix up a timeline and destroy Hamas completely.

Hamas is anyways fighting a battle they can never win and inturn are destroying their own people's lives slowly.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 6:09 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-co- ... dium=email

Read the article.
Nuff said.
Can you say forever? Cuz that’s how long this will go on for….


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MaverickM11
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 25, 2021 10:35 pm

I thought this was interesting--evangelicals are really the only reason the GOP cares about Israel; without them the America First crew would drop Israel like a bad habit:

Support for Israel among young US evangelical Christians drops sharply — survey
Since 2018, backing for Israel dropped from 75% to 33%; nearly half of evangelicals aged 18-29 say they favor establishment of Palestinian state, voted for Biden over Trump
https://www.timesofisrael.com/support-f ... ly-survey/
 
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Aesma
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 27, 2021 11:23 am

OK I'm no expert but when talking about "Orthodox" in Israel there are plenty of factions aren't there ? Aren't many of them actually anti zionists and not at all involved in colonies etc. ? But instead just spending their days reading the Torah and the night making babies ?

entdoc : Israel does exist and realpolitik says it will continue to exist. However it's "right to exist" is indeed dubious. Land given by people it wasn't in their right to give. The UN recognizes the right of self determination, to the point of calling parts of my country "colonies" even though the people living there actually want to stay French (so the UN isn't actually listening to the people), yet Israel wasn't created with the self determination of people living there in mind.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 27, 2021 11:59 am

Aesma wrote:
entdoc : Israel does exist and realpolitik says it will continue to exist.


Yup, and again the whole right to exist stuff cuts both ways. Golda Meir famously claimed that there was no such thing as Palestinian people. Key politicians in Israel openly oppose the creation of a Palestinian state, ever, and continue to call for the creeping annexation of all (or just the nice bits) of the West Bank.

That can only happen by ethnic cleansing or keeping Palestinians as something less than citizens, which is the option that seems to be working so far.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 27, 2021 12:32 pm

entdoc : Israel does exist and realpolitik says it will continue to exist. However it's "right to exist" is indeed dubious. Land given by people it wasn't in their right to give. The UN recognizes the right of self determination, to the point of calling parts of my country "colonies" even though the people living there actually want to stay French (so the UN isn't actually listening to the people), yet Israel wasn't created with the self determination of people living there in mind.[/quote]

Could that not be said of pretty much the entire Middle East? Jordan Lebanon Syria Israel etc all carved out of various mandates by the UN. And those mandates had little to do with the indigenous peoples in all those lands. Was it the UNs right to create those countries??

BTW. There were Jews in today’s Israel dating back years. Not many but there were. Zefat Tiberias Jerusalem……and some local Arabs as well but also not that many.

Does the USA have the right to exist by that logic considering how it appropriated lands from natives Mexico etc? Yes the USA did buy Louisiana but……


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art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Thu May 27, 2021 7:34 pm

The lesson to be drawn from this historic analysis is that the post World War One Middle East mess is largely tthe fault of the Brits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu-s3xP32b0
 
Sokes
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 28, 2021 10:50 am

Before I watch that long video:
Aaron, can you recommend it?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 28, 2021 11:19 am

[*]
Sokes wrote:
Before I watch that long video:
Aaron, can you recommend it?


I’m not sure. I rather suggest checking out the channel I posted several links from with man on the street interviews on both sides:

https://youtube.com/c/CoreyGilShusterAskProject
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Fri May 28, 2021 6:33 pm

art wrote:
The lesson to be drawn from this historic analysis is that the post World War One Middle East mess is largely tthe fault of the Brits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu-s3xP32b0

Fascinating documentary, which explains the origins of the conflict in great detail. I suppose every state prioritises it's own self-interest, so this shouldn't be surprising. In fairness, it claims that the British needed the support of the French, Italians and Americans.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Sun May 30, 2021 9:39 pm

JJJ wrote:
. Key politicians in Israel openly oppose the creation of a Palestinian state, ever, and continue to call for the creeping annexation of all (or just the nice bits) of the West Bank.


At the time I wrote this I was mostly thinking about former Defence Minister Bennett.

Well, it increasingly looks like he's the next Prime Minister of Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-w ... id-sunday/

That the settler lobby has apparently managed to make their cause so central that they get a PM is the crystallisation of a long process. Peace was never an option.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:06 am

Bill Maher defends Israel’s Gaza operation on his HBO show

Host spends nearly 10 minutes discussing recent conflict, takes aim at celebrities such as Bella Hadid: ‘You can’t learn history from Instagram’

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bill-mahe ... -hbo-show/

I don't always listen to Bill Maher, but when I do, he's making some sense out of something.

Here's an interesting quote that I haven't heard recited on any liberal MSM outlets:

“I would submit that Israel did not steal anybody’s land,” Maher said. “This is another thing I’ve heard the last couple of weeks, words like ‘occupiers’ and ‘colonizers’ and ‘apartheid,’ which I don’t think people understand the history there. The Jews have been in that area of the world since about 1200 BC, way before the first Muslim or Arab walked the earth.”

He also showed the United Nations’ partition plan of 1947, which, had it not been rejected by the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors, he said, would have created two states, one for Palestinians and one for Israelis.


It's in the the anti-Zionists nations of the world interests to insure there is no "peace," as the conflict allows them, from afar, "to keep poking Israel in the eye." And if that's at the Palestinians expense, that's nothing to them. Their hatred for Israel far far exceeds their so-called "love" for Palestinians/Palestine.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:03 pm

JJJ wrote:
Golda Meir famously claimed that there was no such thing as Palestinian people.


"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Zuheir Mohsen, PLO


You are welcome.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:40 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Golda Meir famously claimed that there was no such thing as Palestinian people.


"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Zuheir Mohsen, PLO


You are welcome.


Mohsen was a panarabist like Nasser or Aflaq, and a member of the Baath party. Syria and Egypt are still very much nations, like Palestine.

Or take the other view and consider Israel doesn't exist because of nutjobs like the Neturei Karta.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:49 am

When someone uses the pejorative descriptor "nutjob" in their statements, then, to me, they have lost the argument already, and have nothing left but name-calling.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:07 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
When someone uses the pejorative descriptor "nutjob" in their statements, then, to me, they have lost the argument already, and have nothing left but name-calling.


Hmmm...after due consideration, I'm gonna go with 'nah'. Some groups are absolutely, demonstrably, nuts.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:23 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
When someone uses the pejorative descriptor "nutjob" in their statements, then, to me, they have lost the argument already, and have nothing left but name-calling.


Hmmm...after due consideration, I'm gonna go with 'nah'. Some groups are absolutely, demonstrably, nuts.


And there is a particular abundance of them in the Middle-East.
 
edka
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:34 pm

JJJ wrote:

Mohsen was a panarabist like Nasser or Aflaq, and a member of the Baath party. Syria and Egypt are still very much nations, like Palestine.

Or take the other view and consider Israel doesn't exist because of nutjobs like the Neturei Karta.


Palestine was never a country, certainly never a nation. Just like modern Israel didn't exist pre-1948. The land that was called Palestine (which by the way was named by Romans after they conquered the Kingdom of Judah) was controlled (occupied) by the British, Turks, and other empires for centuries. The people who lived in that land were simply Arabs (Muslim, Christian), Jews or other minorities like Druze or Bediuns, who retain their cultural differences to this day. To say Palestine was a country is simply not true and factually inacurate and frankly, it is shocking many people don't know (or don't want to know) this.

The terms Palestine or Palestinian that are used today as an identity have only been popularized since the creation of Israel in 1948. But even then, since 1948 and until 1968 Jordan controlled West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. If Israel would have lost any of the wars since 1948, we would not be having this conversation and the term Palestine as it is known today would not exist. I am not saying it should not exist today as part of a two-state solution but let's not conveniently ignore the facts.

By the way, even today, the Palestinians are very disjointed and tribal and have many clans that are very powerful and some of them have not got on with one another for centuries. Similar to the situation between PA and Hamas. Israel, for all its faults, had no partner since Arafat died. Mahmud Abbas has once acknowledged that "Arabs" (not Palestinians!) made an error in refusing 1947 partition offer. Since then, there were several other opportunities, involving both the left and right-wing Israeli governments - all rejected by Palestinians. Israeli population, which until about 20 years ago, was predominantly left-wing, has in the meantime has shifted to the right, and today I personally have very little hope of a two-state solution, given where we are...

Bill Maher is spot on - "you cannot learn history on Instagram"...
 
JJJ
Posts: 4118
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:25 pm

edka wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Mohsen was a panarabist like Nasser or Aflaq, and a member of the Baath party. Syria and Egypt are still very much nations, like Palestine.

Or take the other view and consider Israel doesn't exist because of nutjobs like the Neturei Karta.


Palestine was never a country, certainly never a nation. Just like modern Israel didn't exist pre-1948.


Precisely.

Creating Israel in turn created Palestine. One wouldn't exist without the other and have exactly the same claim to existence.
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