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bennett123
Posts: 10759
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 7:01 pm

entdoc wrote:
Let’s get it down to a few facts
1- the world is divided into two groups. Those who rabidly hate Jews and those who hate Jews but tolerate them until the first opportunity to join the first group.
2- for the vast majority of the world for them to like a Jew ha has to be dead or on his way to the ovens.
3- if Arabs (hamas) would put down their weapons there would be peace even if imperfect (ref: Abraham accords)
If Israel would put down it’s weapons there would be no Israel. Plain and simple.


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Your first two points are a complete fallacy.
 
art
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 7:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 7:07 pm

There was no reason for the current escalation by Hamas

No other than the reasons I have stated before.
Hamas has not learned that you get a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar


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bennett123
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 7:27 pm

I never did work out what benefits the Abraham Accords gave the Palestinians in many key areas;

1. The right of return of Palestinians who left or were forced out of the territory now covered by Israel since 1948.
2. The status of the Settlers in the West Bank.
3. The status of Jerusalem.
4. The scope and status of a separate Palestinian state, with control of it's territory and borders.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 8:12 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I never did work out what benefits the Abraham Accords gave the Palestinians in many key areas;

1. The right of return of Palestinians who left or were forced out of the territory now covered by Israel since 1948.
2. The status of the Settlers in the West Bank.
3. The status of Jerusalem.
4. The scope and status of a separate Palestinian state, with control of it's territory and borders.

The Abraham accords came about because several “moderate “ Arab states came to the realization that relations with Israel even with disagreements would be potentially more beneficial than continued hatred.
The Palis have yet to reach that conclusion.
Even some Arab states are sick of the palis constant refusal to advance themselves.

1- perhaps some of the original refugees still left could return. But not six generations worth. Of course since everyone would like to wipe Israel out why not do it demographically?
2- if the Palestinians did not demand their state be judenrein the settlers if they wished could become law abiding citizens of that state just as Arabs can be law abiding citizens of Israel
3-needs to be determined but should be Jews in west Arabs in East with a joint city council
4- from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free. The hopes of most of the world


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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:43 pm

windy95 wrote:
i was thinking the same thing. The case has been ongoing and still has not been decided. There was no reason for the current escalation by Hamas


The only reason the case is not decided was due to a last minute intervention. Even so, Israeli forces escalated the situation by storming the Al-Aqsa mosque. Why do they do that when the protests were relatively harmless (throwing rocks at Israeli police dressed to the nines in combat gear warrants an attack?)

It's clear that Israel, or more correctly Benjamin Netanyahu wanted the escalation in order to shore his flagging support. Let's not forget that if he's not in government, he will be up to face charges of corruption. He's doing his damnedest to cling on to his PM position, even courting far right parties. I mean with leaders like Itamar Ben-Gvir, is it any surprise that there's escalation in the situation?

entdoc wrote:
The Abraham accords came about because several “moderate “ Arab states came to the realization that relations with Israel even with disagreements would be potentially more beneficial than continued hatred.


You mean the spineless Arab nations who care more about the American dollar instead of standing up for what's right?

entdoc wrote:
1- perhaps some of the original refugees still left could return. But not six generations worth. Of course since everyone would like to wipe Israel out why not do it demographically?


How convenient, just drag it until there all the original refugees are dead and you can argue that there's no need to return the land!
Last edited by TheFlyingDisk on Mon May 17, 2021 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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NIKV69
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:44 pm

art wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.


Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
art wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.


Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...


When you deal with insincere foes, especially one with all the military might behind them, force is the only way to make your voice heard.

It may be distasteful, but it's proven to have worked. Case in point - the formation of Israel.
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FGITD
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:50 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

How convenient, just drag it until there all the original refugees are dead and you can argue that there's no need to return the land!


This argument being made in favor of Israel has to be the most laughable logic. “What right do they have to live here? Just because their relatives did a few years ago means nothing!”
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 12:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
art wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.


Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...


It’s a lazy trope in such a complex issue to conflate support for Palestinians with approval of rocket attacks. It is possible to criticize attacks while also understanding their motivation and political utility. Also lazy to characterize the impasse as ‘issues’ to be resolved - these are perceived as fundamental questions of survival for both parties.
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:08 am

art wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.



No. I brand terrorism as I see it.

Rockets fired indiscriminately into civilian territories without traceability or tracking qualifies. you can be as mad as you want about an eviction, but I draw the line at supporting firing 3200+ and counting deadly warheads into civilian territory as terrorism,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
art wrote:

People are too ready to brand anyone opposed to Israeli government actions as supporters of terrorism.


Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...


It’s a lazy trope in such a complex issue to conflate support for Palestinians with approval of rocket attacks. It is possible to criticize attacks while also understanding their motivation and political utility. Also lazy to characterize the impasse as ‘issues’ to be resolved - these are perceived as fundamental questions of survival for both parties.



This is a lazy trope. Palestinians voted for the government that fires indiscriminately into civilian territories. They didn't vote for skilled negotiators.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:17 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...


It’s a lazy trope in such a complex issue to conflate support for Palestinians with approval of rocket attacks. It is possible to criticize attacks while also understanding their motivation and political utility. Also lazy to characterize the impasse as ‘issues’ to be resolved - these are perceived as fundamental questions of survival for both parties.



This is a lazy trope. Palestinians voted for the government that fires indiscriminately into civilian territories. They didn't vote for skilled negotiators.


I don't criticize the impoverished or downtrodden anywhere in the world for having kids they can't afford or choosing leaders who lie to them. Stress doesn't make for good decision making anywhere - just a basic truism of our species's psychology. So no, I reject calling a nuanced view 'lazy'.
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:27 am

How convenient, just drag it until there all the original refugees are dead and you can argue that there's no need to return the land!

By your logic my children and grandchildren demand to return to the spices store and apartment taken from my grandparents (6 generations by your logic) by the Nazis and Poles during the war……


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santi319
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:38 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Well if you support rockets being fired as a way to resolve issues then...


It’s a lazy trope in such a complex issue to conflate support for Palestinians with approval of rocket attacks. It is possible to criticize attacks while also understanding their motivation and political utility. Also lazy to characterize the impasse as ‘issues’ to be resolved - these are perceived as fundamental questions of survival for both parties.



This is a lazy trope. Palestinians voted for the government that fires indiscriminately into civilian territories. They didn't vote for skilled negotiators.


They did in the West Bank and how is that working out for them? The truth is out, the tide is turning more than ever before and now the world is witnessing a true Apartheid rogue pseudo democracy committing genocide.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:40 am

entdoc wrote:
How convenient, just drag it until there all the original refugees are dead and you can argue that there's no need to return the land!

By your logic my children and grandchildren demand to return to the spices store and apartment taken from my grandparents (6 generations by your logic) by the Nazis and Poles during the war……

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The fact that Holocaust restitutions are a thing negates your argument completely. So why can't Palestinians get the same treatment as the Jews?
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:46 am

Israel has offered financial restitution (ie Germany) time and again and been utterly rejected….give me our store!


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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:01 am

entdoc wrote:
Israel has offered financial restitution (ie Germany) time and again and been utterly rejected….give me our store!


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STILL awaiting your answer as to how rejecting Palestinians with other countries’ passports from visiting family in Gaza is tzedakah.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:09 am

entdoc wrote:
Israel has offered financial restitution (ie Germany) time and again and been utterly rejected….give me our store!


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Please, Israel's "financial restitution" is insulting as they outright denied any request of property restitution and have limited the number of people allowed to ask for restitutions.

Hell, Zionist terrorists assassinated the UN mediator that fought strongly for the Palestinians' right to return. Just goes to show how insincere the Zionists' "restitution" really was.
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:17 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
entdoc wrote:
Israel has offered financial restitution (ie Germany) time and again and been utterly rejected….give me our store!


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Please, Israel's "financial restitution" is insulting as they outright denied any request of property restitution and have limited the number of people allowed to ask for restitutions.

Hell, Zionist terrorists assassinated the UN mediator that fought strongly for the Palestinians' right to return. Just goes to show how insincere the Zionists' "restitution" really was.


They also assassinated Rabin, while parading posters of him in SS garb at Bibi’s early rallies. Disgusting
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:35 am

outright denied any request of property restitution

And what property restitutions have Poland Germany Austria Hungary ex Czech/Slovakia etc etc ever made


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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:35 am

outright denied any request of property restitution

And what property restitutions have Poland Germany Austria Hungary ex Czech/Slovakia etc etc ever made


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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:36 am

outright denied any request of property restitution

And what property restitutions have Poland Germany Austria Hungary ex Czech/Slovakia etc etc ever made


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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:36 am

outright denied any request of property restitution

And what property restitutions have Poland Germany Austria Hungary ex Czech/Slovakia etc etc ever made


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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 5:47 am

entdoc wrote:
outright denied any request of property restitution

And what property restitutions have Poland Germany Austria Hungary ex Czech/Slovakia etc etc ever made


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Germany - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparatio ... of_Germany

Austria - https://www.dw.com/en/holocaust-survivo ... /a-1811660

Hungary - https://wjro.org.il/our-work/restitutio ... y/hungary/

Czech Republic - https://wjro.org.il/our-work/restitutio ... -republic/

Only Poland have not made an effort to provide restitutions.

That doesn't mean Israel should be given a free pass over Palestinian restitutions. It is morally reprehensible for Israel to demand restitution for the Holocaust while at the same time denying displaced Palestinians their restitutions for Israeli actions.
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:08 am

Exactly my point. Financial restitution. There have never been masses of Jews rampaging in Europe demanding their houses stores and factories back. (Maybe there should be) they accepted monetary restitution.
OTOH for you the Palis should NOT take financial restitution but demand their actual properties.
By that logic 6th generation post Holocaust Jews should be rocketing Europe today.


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JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:12 am

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:


It's not the fault of Israel that Hamas decided to adopt a Charter that called for annihilation. They started themselves as a counterbalance to the PLO, and when the PLO made peace overtures, Hamas stepped in and won the hearts of the religious zealots.


Totally unexpected that a fundamentalist religious organization would call for an ethnoreligious state.

I mean, who could have seen that coming.


Everyone saw it coming ,but the hope was that the PLO had won enough hearts and minds to pull it together. Alas they didn't


Hope by whom? Certainly not the Israeli govt.

You don't undermine the standing of people you want to get a deal from.... unless you don't want a deal at all.
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:21 am

entdoc wrote:
By that logic 6th generation post Holocaust Jews should be rocketing Europe today.


Is there are country where they don't get right of return?

Any descendant of Spanish Jews, no matter where they've been living for the past 5 centuries gets automatic nationality and residence in Spain, IIRC Portugal has a similar law. There are similar avenues to get German and other European nationalities for those who lost it or were compelled to leave.

It's not necessarily about the property, it's about being allowed to live your full life there (and that should include full rights).
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:31 am

entdoc wrote:
Exactly my point. Financial restitution. There have never been masses of Jews rampaging in Europe demanding their houses stores and factories back. (Maybe there should be) they accepted monetary restitution.
OTOH for you the Palis should NOT take financial restitution but demand their actual properties.
By that logic 6th generation post Holocaust Jews should be rocketing Europe today.


Stupid argument, considering that many of those Jews who migrated to Palestine did so on their own volition to fulfill the Zionist desire to form a Jewish state.

Palestinians live in Palestine all their lives and was summarily evicted from their own lands!
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:52 am

Palestinians live in Palestine all their lives and was summarily evicted from their own lands!


Those who did not run away were (mostly) not evicted. And still live in Israel as citizens. Had the Arab masses not heeded their radical Jew hating leaders history would be different


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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 6:55 am

entdoc wrote:
By your logic my children and grandchildren demand to return to the spices store and apartment taken from my grandparents (6 generations by your logic) by the Nazis and Poles during the war……


You can go to Poland and Germany and get a shiny passport based on those actions.

That comes with full residency, working, rights as every other German national.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:16 am

You can go to Poland and Germany and get a shiny passport based on those actions.

Yes but I can never get my family’s store back. Or house.


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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:44 am

entdoc wrote:
You can go to Poland and Germany and get a shiny passport based on those actions.

Yes but I can never get my family’s store back. Or house.


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So on that topic, AGAIN, if Palestinians have a German passport, why does Israel automatically assume they are terrorist and refuse recognition of their new citizenship when they visit family in Gaza?

You have been completely unable to answer this query repeatedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYS6Gf3hgY
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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:56 am

entdoc wrote:
You can go to Poland and Germany and get a shiny passport based on those actions.

Yes but I can never get my family’s store back. Or house.


If the choice is between property and rights I'm firmly with the former.

But then again Palestinians get neither so the point is moot.
 
Mortyman
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 8:34 am

The only Corona 19 lab on the Gazastrip was attacked during an airstrike by Israel, Monday. It can now no longer analyze covid 19 tests.



https://www.tv2.no/nyheter/14006143/
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 12:33 pm

How many rocket launchers Israel destroyed so far?
All posts are just opinions.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 1:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It’s a lazy trope in such a complex issue to conflate support for Palestinians with approval of rocket attacks. It is possible to criticize attacks while also understanding their motivation and political utility. Also lazy to characterize the impasse as ‘issues’ to be resolved - these are perceived as fundamental questions of survival for both parties.



This is a lazy trope. Palestinians voted for the government that fires indiscriminately into civilian territories. They didn't vote for skilled negotiators.


I don't criticize the impoverished or downtrodden anywhere in the world for having kids they can't afford or choosing leaders who lie to them. Stress doesn't make for good decision making anywhere - just a basic truism of our species's psychology. So no, I reject calling a nuanced view 'lazy'.



At this point the fundamentals of survival do not get addressed when the party in question has chosen terrorists for leadership. It took the US/UN in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq to separate out and overthrow the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. and ISIS. Gaza needs that kind of intervention, but all the Palestinian supporters don't want it. Until Hamas is out of control, there will not be meaningful dialogs.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


This is a lazy trope. Palestinians voted for the government that fires indiscriminately into civilian territories. They didn't vote for skilled negotiators.


I don't criticize the impoverished or downtrodden anywhere in the world for having kids they can't afford or choosing leaders who lie to them. Stress doesn't make for good decision making anywhere - just a basic truism of our species's psychology. So no, I reject calling a nuanced view 'lazy'.



At this point the fundamentals of survival do not get addressed when the party in question has chosen terrorists for leadership. It took the US/UN in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq to separate out and overthrow the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. and ISIS. Gaza needs that kind of intervention, but all the Palestinian supporters don't want it. Until Hamas is out of control, there will not be meaningful dialogs.


That's our cozy western view of what Hamas are - I doubt Gazans in their current conditions can see it that way. As to 'Palestinian supporters' - most of the UNSC permanent and nonpermanent members would support an extended peacekeeping mission in Gaza to quell Hamas's influence - right now it seems the biggest wild cards on that vote would be the US and Russia, not anyone else. In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I don't criticize the impoverished or downtrodden anywhere in the world for having kids they can't afford or choosing leaders who lie to them. Stress doesn't make for good decision making anywhere - just a basic truism of our species's psychology. So no, I reject calling a nuanced view 'lazy'.



At this point the fundamentals of survival do not get addressed when the party in question has chosen terrorists for leadership. It took the US/UN in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq to separate out and overthrow the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. and ISIS. Gaza needs that kind of intervention, but all the Palestinian supporters don't want it. Until Hamas is out of control, there will not be meaningful dialogs.


That's our cozy western view of what Hamas are - I doubt Gazans in their current conditions can see it that way. As to 'Palestinian supporters' - most of the UNSC permanent and nonpermanent members would support an extended peacekeeping mission in Gaza to quell Hamas's influence - right now it seems the biggest wild cards on that vote would be the US and Russia, not anyone else. In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.


Yes it is beyond horrible that kids on both sides have died. the unfortunate issues is in all battles civilians are casualties. More so when the weapons and infrastructure are being fired from cities and towns. Yes the IDF should try to minimize it, and they do, but the infrastructure Hamas has built up, especially the undergrown tunnels, need to be compromised to get rid of the weapons.

I am hoping Hamas is running out of rockets and we will slowly see the endgame in the next few days, where a new truce will occur.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 2:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


At this point the fundamentals of survival do not get addressed when the party in question has chosen terrorists for leadership. It took the US/UN in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq to separate out and overthrow the Taliban, Al-Qaeda. and ISIS. Gaza needs that kind of intervention, but all the Palestinian supporters don't want it. Until Hamas is out of control, there will not be meaningful dialogs.


That's our cozy western view of what Hamas are - I doubt Gazans in their current conditions can see it that way. As to 'Palestinian supporters' - most of the UNSC permanent and nonpermanent members would support an extended peacekeeping mission in Gaza to quell Hamas's influence - right now it seems the biggest wild cards on that vote would be the US and Russia, not anyone else. In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.


Yes it is beyond horrible that kids on both sides have died. the unfortunate issues is in all battles civilians are casualties. More so when the weapons and infrastructure are being fired from cities and towns. Yes the IDF should try to minimize it, and they do, but the infrastructure Hamas has built up, especially the undergrown tunnels, need to be compromised to get rid of the weapons.

I am hoping Hamas is running out of rockets and we will slowly see the endgame in the next few days, where a new truce will occur.


Obviously a lot of people's angle is stamp out the terror terror terror, and do it with brute brute brute force. I think reducing the base of support for it is more important in the long run - terror always returns where instability provides a vacuum - look no further than Afghanistan after the USSR left. Whack-a-mole is a tiring game for all involved. And my primary angle as a Jewish person who wants to see the only Jewish state actually operate in the spirit of the faith is that justice must prevail - and there can be none when it favors only one side. That's a basic concept in tzedakah.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 3:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.

I am not sure if this is a serious thought, but looking at what is taking place today, you really believe that an Israeli force of politicians and civilian police can rule Gaza for 12 months after a military take over which will result in the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians?

Maybe if you said a military take over by Russian, Chinese or Cuban troops, but no way in my opinion can any western military take over Gaza to make things better, the daily incidents of violence would be worse that Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 3:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.

I am not sure if this is a serious thought, but looking at what is taking place today, you really believe that an Israeli force of politicians and civilian police can rule Gaza for 12 months after a military take over which will result in the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians?

Maybe if you said a military take over by Russian, Chinese or Cuban troops, but no way in my opinion can any western military take over Gaza to make things better, the daily incidents of violence would be worse that Iraq and Afghanistan.


When Hamas's weapons stores had run out would be the only plausible timing. And in the same post I suggested that would have to be in concert with a UN peacekeeping force. Obviously a strictly Israeli occupation would be a non-starter.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 3:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That's our cozy western view of what Hamas are - I doubt Gazans in their current conditions can see it that way. As to 'Palestinian supporters' - most of the UNSC permanent and nonpermanent members would support an extended peacekeeping mission in Gaza to quell Hamas's influence - right now it seems the biggest wild cards on that vote would be the US and Russia, not anyone else. In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.


Yes it is beyond horrible that kids on both sides have died. the unfortunate issues is in all battles civilians are casualties. More so when the weapons and infrastructure are being fired from cities and towns. Yes the IDF should try to minimize it, and they do, but the infrastructure Hamas has built up, especially the undergrown tunnels, need to be compromised to get rid of the weapons.

I am hoping Hamas is running out of rockets and we will slowly see the endgame in the next few days, where a new truce will occur.


Obviously a lot of people's angle is stamp out the terror terror terror, and do it with brute brute brute force. I think reducing the base of support for it is more important in the long run - terror always returns where instability provides a vacuum - look no further than Afghanistan after the USSR left. Whack-a-mole is a tiring game for all involved. And my primary angle as a Jewish person who wants to see the only Jewish state actually operate in the spirit of the faith is that justice must prevail - and there can be none when it favors only one side. That's a basic concept in tzedakah.


Justice must prevail, but for that to happen, the terror has to stop. Remember, Israel pulled all settlements out of Gaza when they tried to let Gaza be more independent. We can all expect the same will occur when a final peace deal is reached.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 3:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
In the meantime, there is zero chance the international community would look negatively on a re-occupation of Gaza by Israel, so long as it was mainly humanitarian instead of military. Twelve to fifteen months of that, with more food in bellies, kids safe in school, and elimination of terrorist reprisals against anyone speaking out, nobody would vote for Hamas again. There's more than one way to skin a cat - the question is how many kids do you want to kill to do it? It's not their fault where they were born - that's what's more fucked up than anything with the current death ratio at 200-something Gazans to each Israeli.

I am not sure if this is a serious thought, but looking at what is taking place today, you really believe that an Israeli force of politicians and civilian police can rule Gaza for 12 months after a military take over which will result in the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians?

Maybe if you said a military take over by Russian, Chinese or Cuban troops, but no way in my opinion can any western military take over Gaza to make things better, the daily incidents of violence would be worse that Iraq and Afghanistan.


When Hamas's weapons stores had run out would be the only plausible timing. And in the same post I suggested that would have to be in concert with a UN peacekeeping force. Obviously a strictly Israeli occupation would be a non-starter.

I don't think a UN force would work either, they are usually only armed with personal weapons because neither side of the conflict wants to be constrained by them, so for the most part, those forces are symbolic, something to make outsiders feel good.
As for when Hamas weapons stores run out, they will simply replenish once the fighting stops, that is what happened all previous times regardless of the constraints that Israel, Egypt or the UN place on the borders.
As I posted earlier, the military inventory that Hamas has displayed and their staying power has been impressive, unfortunately, the civilian population as always bears the brunt of the impressive display.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:06 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I am not sure if this is a serious thought, but looking at what is taking place today, you really believe that an Israeli force of politicians and civilian police can rule Gaza for 12 months after a military take over which will result in the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians?

Maybe if you said a military take over by Russian, Chinese or Cuban troops, but no way in my opinion can any western military take over Gaza to make things better, the daily incidents of violence would be worse that Iraq and Afghanistan.


When Hamas's weapons stores had run out would be the only plausible timing. And in the same post I suggested that would have to be in concert with a UN peacekeeping force. Obviously a strictly Israeli occupation would be a non-starter.

I don't think a UN force would work either, they are usually only armed with personal weapons because neither side of the conflict wants to be constrained by them, so for the most part, those forces are symbolic, something to make outsiders feel good.
As for when Hamas weapons stores run out, they will simply replenish once the fighting stops, that is what happened all previous times regardless of the constraints that Israel, Egypt or the UN place on the borders.
As I posted earlier, the military inventory that Hamas has displayed and their staying power has been impressive, unfortunately, the civilian population as always bears the brunt of the impressive display.


So what then...keep killing kids? That doesn't stop Hamas either, and doesn't spearhead any sense of justice.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue May 18, 2021 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 4:53 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Yes it is beyond horrible that kids on both sides have died. the unfortunate issues is in all battles civilians are casualties. More so when the weapons and infrastructure are being fired from cities and towns. Yes the IDF should try to minimize it, and they do, but the infrastructure Hamas has built up, especially the undergrown tunnels, need to be compromised to get rid of the weapons.

I am hoping Hamas is running out of rockets and we will slowly see the endgame in the next few days, where a new truce will occur.


Obviously a lot of people's angle is stamp out the terror terror terror, and do it with brute brute brute force. I think reducing the base of support for it is more important in the long run - terror always returns where instability provides a vacuum - look no further than Afghanistan after the USSR left. Whack-a-mole is a tiring game for all involved. And my primary angle as a Jewish person who wants to see the only Jewish state actually operate in the spirit of the faith is that justice must prevail - and there can be none when it favors only one side. That's a basic concept in tzedakah.


Justice must prevail, but for that to happen, the terror has to stop. Remember, Israel pulled all settlements out of Gaza when they tried to let Gaza be more independent. We can all expect the same will occur when a final peace deal is reached.


Israel pulled out of Gaza because they saw no value in it.

Gaza, not the West Bank is the one ruled by Hamas. Yet it's not from the West Bank where they're retreating from.
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

When Hamas's weapons stores had run out would be the only plausible timing. And in the same post I suggested that would have to be in concert with a UN peacekeeping force. Obviously a strictly Israeli occupation would be a non-starter.

I don't think a UN force would work either, they are usually only armed with personal weapons because neither side of the conflict wants to be constrained by them, so for the most part, those forces are symbolic, something to make outsiders feel good.
As for when Hamas weapons stores run out, they will simply replenish once the fighting stops, that is what happened all previous times regardless of the constraints that Israel, Egypt or the UN place on the borders.
As I posted earlier, the military inventory that Hamas has displayed and their staying power has been impressive, unfortunately, the civilian population as always bears the brunt of the impressive display.


So what then...keep killing kids? That doesn't stop Hamas either, and doesn't spearhead any sense of justice.

Unfortunately for me I did not boil down the events of the last few days into killing kids, I will have to re-evaluate.
 
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par13del
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:11 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Obviously a lot of people's angle is stamp out the terror terror terror, and do it with brute brute brute force. I think reducing the base of support for it is more important in the long run - terror always returns where instability provides a vacuum - look no further than Afghanistan after the USSR left. Whack-a-mole is a tiring game for all involved. And my primary angle as a Jewish person who wants to see the only Jewish state actually operate in the spirit of the faith is that justice must prevail - and there can be none when it favors only one side. That's a basic concept in tzedakah.


Justice must prevail, but for that to happen, the terror has to stop. Remember, Israel pulled all settlements out of Gaza when they tried to let Gaza be more independent. We can all expect the same will occur when a final peace deal is reached.


Israel pulled out of Gaza because they saw no value in it.

Gaza, not the West Bank is the one ruled by Hamas. Yet it's not from the West Bank where they're retreating from.

...nor is it from the West Bank that missiles are flying. Gaza and the West Bank in the last 10 to 20 years are a stark contrast in the struggle.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:16 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Obviously a lot of people's angle is stamp out the terror terror terror, and do it with brute brute brute force. I think reducing the base of support for it is more important in the long run - terror always returns where instability provides a vacuum - look no further than Afghanistan after the USSR left. Whack-a-mole is a tiring game for all involved. And my primary angle as a Jewish person who wants to see the only Jewish state actually operate in the spirit of the faith is that justice must prevail - and there can be none when it favors only one side. That's a basic concept in tzedakah.


Justice must prevail, but for that to happen, the terror has to stop. Remember, Israel pulled all settlements out of Gaza when they tried to let Gaza be more independent. We can all expect the same will occur when a final peace deal is reached.


Israel pulled out of Gaza because they saw no value in it.

Gaza, not the West Bank is the one ruled by Hamas. Yet it's not from the West Bank where they're retreating from.


And it's not from the West Bank where the rockets are flying from, Yet Gaza is firing rockets over a court case that is not decided.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
art
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Tue May 18, 2021 7:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
Justice must prevail, but for that to happen, the terror has to stop.


The terror often starts when a party with overwhelming power wants injustice. Stopping the terror just re-establishes the status quo ante, prevailing injustice imposed by the overwhelming power.
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