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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 9:39 am

entdoc wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Yes a deed from 1800 is an excuse to take property from Palestinians, bud deeds from 1948 are no reason to give anything back to Palestinians, right ? Are you islamophobic by any chance (using the same rhetoric as you) ?

Do people think BDS will take hold ? Does Israel export a lot to the US to begin with ? Here in France we get some fruits from Israel, I never buy them. If I know something comes from there (from "occupied territory" or otherwise since Israel doesn't want the distinction being made) I don't buy it. I have done that for about 15 years, not really following a campaign to do so.

Actually I work closely and in excellent harmony with many Arabs Druze etc.


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That's great for you individually, but doesn't speak anything about Israeli policy. There is no tzedakah in the current approach. Where is the justice in moving people from their homes? Where is the justice in treating all Palestinian visitors to Gaza with other country's passports as potential terrorists? Israel has the money and resources to replace Hamas by being the rejuvenation force in Gaza. Where is the justice in not doing so, in the name of security? No life worth living was ever born from fear.

Our rabbi when I was a kid constantly spoke of the need to treat neighbors as neighbors. I can't find that anywhere in the Israeli government stance, though that's what many citizens want.
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entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 9:41 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
entdoc wrote:
All the German polish etc concentration camps. The world knew. People begged the us administration to bomb the train tracks to auschwitz. Nothing was done. The rest is known.


Stop trying to play the Holocaust card to cover up Israel's crimes.

I guess for many of you the very existence of Israel is like a chicken bone stuck in your gullet. And you are hoping some doctor will remove it for you.


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art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 9:43 am

#entdoc Great wrongs have been done to the Jews in the past (appalling injustices inflicted on them). Many people who support Israel cite the extermination programme of the Nazis when the conduct of Israel is questioned. I am curious to know what injustices you think the state of Israel has inflicted on others.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 9:58 am

entdoc wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
entdoc wrote:
All the German polish etc concentration camps. The world knew. People begged the us administration to bomb the train tracks to auschwitz. Nothing was done. The rest is known.


Stop trying to play the Holocaust card to cover up Israel's crimes.

I guess for many of you the very existence of Israel is like a chicken bone stuck in your gullet. And you are hoping some doctor will remove it for you.


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And I guess for you, the Holocaust gives Israel the licence to act in a barbaric manner.
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Aesma
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 10:16 am

Personally I think Israel should have been carved out of German territory. That would have been fair enough.

It doesn't mean I want the destruction of the current Israel, realpolitik is a thing.
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petertenthije
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 10:28 am

entdoc wrote:
Let’s get it down to a few facts
1- the world is divided into two groups. Those who rabidly hate Jews and those who hate Jews but tolerate them until the first opportunity to join the first group.
2- for the vast majority of the world for them to like a Jew ha has to be dead or on his way to the ovens.
With an attitude like that, is it any surprise no mutual understanding can be reached?

Most people do not hate the jews. Most people do not give them a second thought... or a first one for that matter.

But I can understand how you could believe so. With your attitude, no doubt there will be plenty of people that hate you. It's just that you do not make a distinction between people hating you, and people hating your group.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:10 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
I have a heavy pro Palestinian bias in this ever during conflict.

To me, the blame game seams a futile exercise that will change nothing. And I can see only three possible solutions to end this conflict:
1) No Palestinian left there.
2) No Israeli left there.
3) 2 States solution.

Since solution 1 and 2 are absolutely inacceptable we are left with only the last solution.

According to who, and who is "we"?
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:14 am

There is a massive difference between hating Jews and hating Israeli government actions. The Israeli government for the last few decades has deliberately (with the help of others) tried to make the two the same thing, to justify the ever expansion of Israel into Palestinian territory. Having a major problem with stealing other people's land, driving tanks through neighbourhoods, allowing unlimited numbers of 'returnees' because they are Jewish and then grabbing even more land because you don't have room for them. That is not a hatred of Jews, that is a hatred of the Israeli government actions.

What happened in WW2 will never be forgotten, and nor should it. But you cannot use that as an excuse for what is happening now. Israel is there and is a state (where it's borders are is the problem), accept it. Palestinians are a people and deserve a state / home. Accept it.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:17 am

Reinhardt wrote:
There is a massive difference between hating Jews and hating Israeli government actions. The Israeli government for the last few decades has deliberately (with the help of others) tried to make the two the same thing, to justify the ever expansion of Israel into Palestinian territory. Having a major problem with stealing other people's land, driving tanks through neighbourhoods, allowing unlimited numbers of 'returnees' because they are Jewish and then grabbing even more land because you don't have room for them. That is not a hatred of Jews, that is a hatred of the Israeli government actions.

What happened in WW2 will never be forgotten, and nor should it. But you cannot use that as an excuse for what is happening now. Israel is there and is a state (where it's borders are is the problem), accept it. Palestinians are a people and deserve a state / home. Accept it.

From the river to the sea Palestine shall be free. So where is the state for Jews??
Maybe give the Jews Transjordan which was to be the Arab state in the original partition plan. Not.


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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:54 am

entdoc wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
There is a massive difference between hating Jews and hating Israeli government actions. The Israeli government for the last few decades has deliberately (with the help of others) tried to make the two the same thing, to justify the ever expansion of Israel into Palestinian territory. Having a major problem with stealing other people's land, driving tanks through neighbourhoods, allowing unlimited numbers of 'returnees' because they are Jewish and then grabbing even more land because you don't have room for them. That is not a hatred of Jews, that is a hatred of the Israeli government actions.

What happened in WW2 will never be forgotten, and nor should it. But you cannot use that as an excuse for what is happening now. Israel is there and is a state (where it's borders are is the problem), accept it. Palestinians are a people and deserve a state / home. Accept it.

From the river to the sea Palestine shall be free. So where is the state for Jews??


The recognized territory of the West Bank and Gaza has its Eastern border on the Jordan and the Western border on the Med.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 11:59 am

The recognized territory of the West Bank and Gaza has its eastern border on the Jordan and its western border on the Med.

Fine.
So no Israel. Got it.


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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 12:13 pm

entdoc wrote:
The recognized territory of the West Bank and Gaza has its eastern border on the Jordan and its western border on the Med.

Fine.
So no Israel. Got it.



Both Israel and WB+Gaza have their internationally recognized borders. Both stretch from the Jordan to the sea.

No need for the drama.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 12:44 pm

entdoc wrote:
The recognized territory of the West Bank and Gaza has its eastern border on the Jordan and its western border on the Med.

Fine.
So no Israel. Got it.


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Waiting for you to answer my question about tzedakah at the top of the page. Thanks.
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art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 12:49 pm

#entdoc Perhaps you missed what I said earlier

Great wrongs have been done to the Jews in the past (appalling injustices inflicted on them). Many people who support Israel cite the extermination programme of the Nazis when the conduct of Israel is questioned. I am curious to know what injustices you think the state of Israel has inflicted on others.
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
entdoc wrote:
The recognized territory of the West Bank and Gaza has its eastern border on the Jordan and its western border on the Med.

Fine.
So no Israel. Got it.



Both Israel and WB+Gaza have their internationally recognized borders. Both stretch from the Jordan to the sea.

No need for the drama.

Which of the participants on the ground accepts those borders, and is the international community who have accepted these borders willing to do anything to enforce them?
I suspect this conflict will be just like Afghanistan, the extremist will ensure that nothing get's done and "normal" life will evolve differently, Syria and Iraq also come to mind.
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:25 pm

Which of the participants on the ground accepts those borders, and is the international community who have accepted these borders willing to do anything to enforce them?
I suspect this conflict will be just like Afghanistan, the extremist will ensure that nothing get's done and "normal" life will evolve differently, Syria and Iraq also come to mind.


The vast majority of Israelis accept Gaza as a state for Palestinians. And the border can be considered recognizable. There has not been an Israeli in Gaza since Sharon’s disengagement. If the Arabs had not utterly destroyed all the infrastructure left behind and had not almost immediately started shooting rockets and had not thrown Fatah supporters (their own people) from rooftops after hamas took over there could have been an imperfect peace years ago.
But from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free.


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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:31 pm

entdoc wrote:
The vast majority of Israelis accept Gaza as a state for Palestinians. And the border can be considered recognizable. There has not been an Israeli in Gaza since Sharon’s disengagement. If the Arabs had not utterly destroyed all the infrastructure left behind and had not almost immediately started shooting rockets and had not thrown Fatah supporters (their own people) from rooftops after hamas took over there could have been an imperfect peace years ago.
But from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free.


I notice you're not talking about the West Bank there. The place where most Palestinians live, the place that did not elect Hamas and which also happens to be the one with economic value (land, tourism, etc.)

Punishing people in the West Bank for the sins of Gazans reeks of Sippenhaft.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:35 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

You mean the rockets that were launched in response to Israel attacking Palestinian Muslims praying in the Al Aqsa mosque in the holy month of Ramadan? The rockets that were launched in response to Israel stealing Palestinian lands?


So that makes terrorism OK with you?
Image
https://www.businessinsider.com/iron-do ... oto-2021-5


Why is it terrorism when it's clear it was done in response to Israeli provocation? So the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves?

Because it looks to me like the US State Department doesn't believe that the Palestinians have a right to self defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKFxfmTIW8

You're being dishonest by ignoring acts of Israeli aggression prior to the rocket attacks.


What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.

It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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par13del
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:35 pm

JJJ wrote:
entdoc wrote:
The vast majority of Israelis accept Gaza as a state for Palestinians. And the border can be considered recognizable. There has not been an Israeli in Gaza since Sharon’s disengagement. If the Arabs had not utterly destroyed all the infrastructure left behind and had not almost immediately started shooting rockets and had not thrown Fatah supporters (their own people) from rooftops after hamas took over there could have been an imperfect peace years ago.
But from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free.


I notice you're not talking about the West Bank there. The place where most Palestinians live, the place that did not elect Hamas and which also happens to be the one with economic value (land, tourism, etc.)

Punishing people in the West Bank for the sins of Gazans reeks of Sippenhaft.

As far as I know, most in Gaza also want to ensure that there is a land connection between Gaza and the West Bank, so how does the international community propose making that happen?
 
JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:40 pm

par13del wrote:
JJJ wrote:
entdoc wrote:
The vast majority of Israelis accept Gaza as a state for Palestinians. And the border can be considered recognizable. There has not been an Israeli in Gaza since Sharon’s disengagement. If the Arabs had not utterly destroyed all the infrastructure left behind and had not almost immediately started shooting rockets and had not thrown Fatah supporters (their own people) from rooftops after hamas took over there could have been an imperfect peace years ago.
But from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free.


I notice you're not talking about the West Bank there. The place where most Palestinians live, the place that did not elect Hamas and which also happens to be the one with economic value (land, tourism, etc.)

Punishing people in the West Bank for the sins of Gazans reeks of Sippenhaft.

As far as I know, most in Gaza also want to ensure that there is a land connection between Gaza and the West Bank, so how does the international community propose making that happen?


There are many enclaves and exclaves in the world, and similarly many ways to work out suitable connections.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:46 pm

Fortunately rockets are not shot from the West Bank. But there are constant car ramming attempts knifing attempts rock throwing etc (including some that resulted in the death of us citizens)
An Israeli who accidentally wanders into an Arab village has 99% chance of being lynched. An Arab who wanders into a Jewish area close to zero.
In spite of this there is far greater cooperation between the sides in the West Bank.

I certainly do not condone wholesale land grabs by the government. But if the violence (indeed on both sides but a higher percentage on one specific side) ceased there would be a far better chance for an imperfect peace.
If Israelis did not have to worry that every ounce of cement imported goes to a tunnel or every scrap of metal imported goes to a rocket (and the so called international community has failed miserably in this regard) then many of the (IMHO necessary) security requirements could be lightened.
But only one side can move to bolster Israelis confidence that they are not trying to erase Israel and they have never made that effort. And likely never will as the PLO charter of the phased elimination of Israel has never officially and publicly and especially in Arabic been rescinded.


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Aaron747
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:50 pm

casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So that makes terrorism OK with you?
Image
https://www.businessinsider.com/iron-do ... oto-2021-5


Why is it terrorism when it's clear it was done in response to Israeli provocation? So the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves?

Because it looks to me like the US State Department doesn't believe that the Palestinians have a right to self defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKFxfmTIW8

You're being dishonest by ignoring acts of Israeli aggression prior to the rocket attacks.


What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.

It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


I don't think using sweeping and lazy tropes does anyone a service in issues this complex and nuanced.
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 1:54 pm

entdoc wrote:
Fortunately rockets are not shot from the West Bank. But there are constant car ramming attempts knifing attempts rock throwing etc (including some that resulted in the death of us citizens)
An Israeli who accidentally wanders into an Arab village has 99% chance of being lynched. An Arab who wanders into a Jewish area close to zero.
In spite of this there is far greater cooperation between the sides in the West Bank.

I certainly do not condone wholesale land grabs by the government. But if the violence (indeed on both sides but a higher percentage on one specific side) ceased there would be a far better chance for an imperfect peace.
If Israelis did not have to worry that every ounce of cement imported goes to a tunnel or every scrap of metal imported goes to a rocket (and the so called international community has failed miserably in this regard) then many of the (IMHO necessary) security requirements could be lightened.
But only one side can move to bolster Israelis confidence that they are not trying to erase Israel and they have never made that effort. And likely never will as the PLO charter of the phased elimination of Israel has never officially and publicly and especially in Arabic been rescinded.


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Okay, that's a start on the land issue. So again, my questions: there is no tzedakah in the current approach. Where is the justice in moving people from their homes? Where is the justice in treating all Palestinian visitors to Gaza with other country's passports as potential terrorists? Israel has the money and resources to replace Hamas by being the rejuvenation force in Gaza. Where is the justice in not doing so, in the name of security? No life worth living was ever born from fear.

Our rabbi when I was a kid constantly spoke of the need to treat neighbors as neighbors. I can't find that anywhere in the Israeli government stance, though that's what many citizens want. Would it not be the ultimate neighborly mitzvah to replace Hamas by completely rejuvenating Gaza? Think of the example it would set to young Gazans to have rebuilt schools, fresh food, quality housing, etc. Israel has the resources for this. Why keep the status quo, circling the drain, just for Likud and others to maintain legitimacy through 'security'?
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Why is it terrorism when it's clear it was done in response to Israeli provocation? So the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves?

Because it looks to me like the US State Department doesn't believe that the Palestinians have a right to self defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utKFxfmTIW8

You're being dishonest by ignoring acts of Israeli aggression prior to the rocket attacks.


What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.

It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


I don't think using sweeping and lazy tropes does anyone a service in issues this complex and nuanced.


The FlyingDisk is asking questions that were answered far upthread and ignored. The court case was not finalized. The families had not been removed from their homes as of yet, and yet Terrorist rockets were launched from Gaza. It is the laziness of the anti-Israel lobby to ignore the finer nuances of what is occurring


.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:09 pm

There are many enclaves and exclaves in the world, and similarly many ways to work out suitable connections.

Indeed. And AFAIK in these areas the enclave population are not trying to or dreaming of the chance to erase the surrounding areas.
As Abba Eben once said they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
If they had given up their blind hatred there could have been peace ages ago.
But they haven’t and likely never will. The chicken bone stays stuck in their throat.

And folks there are many countries where far worse things are foisted on parts of the population than what happens to Arabs in Israel and even the territories. Some of Israel’s neighbors (Syria other ME countries ) and other countries as well. And yet for those actions in some cases atrocities the world says zip.
The world chastises Israel only yes because most are Jews. Goes back to what I said before. About two groups. The world hated Jews throughout history (inquisition crusades ww2) in the world and now they hate Jews in Israel.

As an aside for Israel being such a bad place has anyone considered why LGBQT Arabs flock to Tel Aviv from all over (especially Gaza and WB)? It is the one place they can live and not be killed……
But boy is Israel the great satan.


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JJJ
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:16 pm

entdoc wrote:
Fortunately rockets are not shot from the West Bank. But there are constant car ramming attempts knifing attempts rock throwing etc (including some that resulted in the death of us citizens)
An Israeli who accidentally wanders into an Arab village has 99% chance of being lynched.


I have been to the West Bank several times. Always with Israelis (Jewish, not Arabic).

The locals are more interested in selling you stuff than anything else.

My Israeli distributor has a Palestinian sub-distributor in Tulkarem, we go together all the time in cars with yellow plates and zero beatings so far. If the chance was really 99% I'm pretty sure I'd have got quite a few broken bones already.

But the question remains, is the threat of knifings, rocks, getting ran over so grave? Or is it more like there's over half a million settlers living in confiscated land that make a substantial voting block so that they can't be sent back to Israel proper?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:25 pm

All is relative, I must say when I see French people deciding to move to Israel because as Jewish people they feel unsafe in France, I don't really understand. Sure there are issues in France, but they're more likely to die from violence over there than here !

They're always quite religious though, so that might be part of it. The ones I know who aren't very religious/or at all have no interest in Israel.
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Aaron747
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:29 pm

entdoc wrote:
There are many enclaves and exclaves in the world, and similarly many ways to work out suitable connections.

Indeed. And AFAIK in these areas the enclave population are not trying to or dreaming of the chance to erase the surrounding areas.
As Abba Eben once said they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
If they had given up their blind hatred there could have been peace ages ago.
But they haven’t and likely never will. The chicken bone stays stuck in their throat.

And folks there are many countries where far worse things are foisted on parts of the population than what happens to Arabs in Israel and even the territories. Some of Israel’s neighbors (Syria other ME countries ) and other countries as well. And yet for those actions in some cases atrocities the world says zip.
The world chastises Israel only yes because most are Jews. Goes back to what I said before. About two groups. The world hated Jews throughout history (inquisition crusades ww2) in the world and now they hate Jews in Israel.

As an aside for Israel being such a bad place has anyone considered why LGBQT Arabs flock to Tel Aviv from all over (especially Gaza and WB)? It is the one place they can live and not be killed……
But boy is Israel the great satan.


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The lazy tropes continue - the world has said plenty about Syria, plenty about Lebanon, even more about Saudi Arabia's proxy war in Yemen. And we're not even onto the neighboring continent - Rwanda, Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria, DRC...the list goes on.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.


It's not just the court case. It's also the raid on the Al-Aqsa mosque, and all the other acts of violence that the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinians for ages.

casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


Let's not forget that Israel is a nation formed from terrorist actions & whose political parties began life as terrorist organizations. It's no different from what the PLFP and now Hamas is doing. The only difference between the terrorists that later ruled Israel & Hamas is that in Israel's case, Britain was weak and capitulated easily whereas Hamas has to fight an enemy that's way stronger than they are, with all the advanced technology they can muster.

I wouldn't mind it if you condemned both Hamas and Israel. But you chose to only condemn one part without even acknowledging the other's role in exacerbating the matter, let alone condemning their heinous acts. And that's just not fair at all.
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art
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:32 pm

#entdoc

I am still curious to know what injustices you think the state of Israel has inflicted on others.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:47 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.


It's not just the court case. It's also the raid on the Al-Aqsa mosque, and all the other acts of violence that the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinians for ages.

casinterest wrote:
It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


Let's not forget that Israel is a nation formed from terrorist actions & whose political parties began life as terrorist organizations. It's no different from what the PLFP and now Hamas is doing. The only difference between the terrorists that later ruled Israel & Hamas is that in Israel's case, Britain was weak and capitulated easily whereas Hamas has to fight an enemy that's way stronger than they are, with all the advanced technology they can muster.

I wouldn't mind it if you condemned both Hamas and Israel. But you chose to only condemn one part without even acknowledging the other's role in exacerbating the matter, let alone condemning their heinous acts. And that's just not fair at all.


That is not consistent with what I have stated the whole thread. You are confusing civil court cases, and civil unrest in Jerusalem with Terrorist attacks from Gaza, which require military intervention.
I have condemned the inconsistent settlement issues in Israel, but that does not ever excuse the terrorist attacks from Gaza. The Palestinians are prolonging peace talks that need to happen sooner , rather than later, and by having Hamas run the show, they aren't going to get a fair shake at many tables.


In 1948, there were less than 1.5 million people on the whole region. Now it is closing in on 15 million. The age old land issues are ignoring the lack of future land for all.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 2:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
That is not consistent with what I have stated the whole thread. You are confusing civil court cases, and civil unrest in Jerusalem with Terrorist attacks from Gaza, which require military intervention.


To the Palestinians, it's all the same deal - the civil court case begets the civil unrest which begets the attacks, which to them is an act of self defence.

casinterest wrote:
I have condemned the inconsistent settlement issues in Israel, but that does not ever excuse the terrorist attacks from Gaza. The Palestinians are prolonging peace talks that need to happen sooner, rather than later, and by having Hamas run the show, they aren't going to get a fair shake at many tables.


It's not enough. Israel have done many things that are far from the norm for a nation state to do. If any other nation did what Israel have done to the Palestinians, there would be a huge outcry from world leaders, especially from America. And yet, Israel managed to escape scot free. It's this lopsided treatment that is fueling the fire, and until Israel & the US realize this nothing is going to happen.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:09 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
That is not consistent with what I have stated the whole thread. You are confusing civil court cases, and civil unrest in Jerusalem with Terrorist attacks from Gaza, which require military intervention.


To the Palestinians, it's all the same deal - the civil court case begets the civil unrest which begets the attacks, which to them is an act of self defence.

casinterest wrote:
I have condemned the inconsistent settlement issues in Israel, but that does not ever excuse the terrorist attacks from Gaza. The Palestinians are prolonging peace talks that need to happen sooner, rather than later, and by having Hamas run the show, they aren't going to get a fair shake at many tables.


It's not enough. Israel have done many things that are far from the norm for a nation state to do. If any other nation did what Israel have done to the Palestinians, there would be a huge outcry from world leaders, especially from America. And yet, Israel managed to escape scot free. It's this lopsided treatment that is fueling the fire, and until Israel & the US realize this nothing is going to happen.


C'mon, you're talking about US foreign policy here, ignoring norms is OK as long as it's an ally. Look no further than seven years of carnage in Yemen, driven largely by KSA/UAE's desire to stick it to Iran.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:13 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
That is not consistent with what I have stated the whole thread. You are confusing civil court cases, and civil unrest in Jerusalem with Terrorist attacks from Gaza, which require military intervention.


To the Palestinians, it's all the same deal - the civil court case begets the civil unrest which begets the attacks, which to them is an act of self defence.

casinterest wrote:
I have condemned the inconsistent settlement issues in Israel, but that does not ever excuse the terrorist attacks from Gaza. The Palestinians are prolonging peace talks that need to happen sooner, rather than later, and by having Hamas run the show, they aren't going to get a fair shake at many tables.


It's not enough. Israel have done many things that are far from the norm for a nation state to do. If any other nation did what Israel have done to the Palestinians, there would be a huge outcry from world leaders, especially from America. And yet, Israel managed to escape scot free. It's this lopsided treatment that is fueling the fire, and until Israel & the US realize this nothing is going to happen.


Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.

Aaron747 wrote:
C'mon, you're talking about US foreign policy here, ignoring norms is OK as long as it's an ally. Look no further than seven years of carnage in Yemen, driven largely by KSA/UAE's desire to stick it to Iran.


The KSA & UAE. Bastards, the lot of them.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:26 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.


For the current issue though, none of that was at play. Hamas launched the terrorist attacks due to social unrest over what may happen. So when you espouse unnecessary violence, it has to apply to both sides.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.


For the current issue though, none of that was at play. Hamas launched the terrorist attacks due to social unrest over what may happen. So when you espouse unnecessary violence, it has to apply to both sides.


Not in this case.

Yes it's an escalation, but it was an escalation provoked by unnecessary violence by the Israeli in the guise of controling social unrest.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:39 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.


For the current issue though, none of that was at play. Hamas launched the terrorist attacks due to social unrest over what may happen. So when you espouse unnecessary violence, it has to apply to both sides.


Not in this case.

Yes it's an escalation, but it was an escalation provoked by unnecessary violence by the Israeli in the guise of controling social unrest.


How? How would you stop hundreds of people with the high ground from stoning those below? You ever been to the western wall?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
casinterest wrote:

For the current issue though, none of that was at play. Hamas launched the terrorist attacks due to social unrest over what may happen. So when you espouse unnecessary violence, it has to apply to both sides.


Not in this case.

Yes it's an escalation, but it was an escalation provoked by unnecessary violence by the Israeli in the guise of controling social unrest.


How? How would you stop hundreds of people with the high ground from stoning those below? You ever been to the western wall?


By not storming the mosque while people are praying, that's for sure. Fire tear gas, put nets to cover the wall, anything but storming the mosque.

The optics of the raid are bad given that its Ramadan, the holiest month for Muslims. Even more, the raids happened within the last 10 days when Muslims double their efforts to pray and be pious to catch Laylat al-Qadr. No wonder they're angry, and so too the rest of the Muslim world.
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:50 pm

Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.

Cmon. Israel was founded by the LON/UN based on the San Remo agreement and Balfour declaration.
Six Arab countries attacked Israel at the moment of its birth before its first breath. If the Arabs had accepted the partition plan in 48 we would not be having this discussion.
But hey a miracle occurred and Israel prevailed. But at that juncture Israel had absolute zero connection to Gaza and WB.
So why was a Palestinian state not formed then?? Because those areas were administered by other Arabs. Since Jews not involved no need to cry for a Palestinian state.
In 56 again an attempt to wipe Israel from the map. They lost again. Still no Israeli involvement in WB and Gaza so no need to cry for Palestine.
1967 yet another attempt to destroy Israel. This time they captured the territories. And held onto them again in 73.
To the victors go the spoils.

Any other victorious country that conquered land would have massacred or transferred the population which would be a real crime per Geneva convention.
Israel never did such a thing and the populations have grown.
If they would only give up the dream of trying to destroy Israel they could have lived in peace eons ago. And there would-likely be far less settlements.
And like an Arab could be a citizen of Israel a Jew could be a citizen of Palestine. But like I said Palestine whenever it comes to be is designed to be judenrein from day 1.
So get over accusing the Israelis. They have offered most everything but the kitchen sink in pursuit of peace only to be constantly rejected.
The Arabs just cannot come to terms with that Jewish bone in their throats.


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JJJ
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 3:57 pm

casinterest wrote:

Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Check your history on how Hamas grew from a purely religious charity to a counterweight to the PLO.

It's not very pretty to Israeli leadership back then.

https://books.google.es/books?id=m_NE9j ... &q&f=false

"A creation of Israel", "Perceived as a healthy phenomenon", but specially:

"The thinking on the part of some of the Israeli right-wing establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to take any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place".

It's the same establishment that would set the stage for a few years later getting Rabin assassinated.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 4:01 pm

entdoc wrote:
Simply because Israel keeps feeding the fire through illegal occupations and violence couched as self defence. Stop with the illegal occupations and unnecessary violence and Israel will have the moral high ground.

Cmon. Israel was founded by the LON/UN based on the San Remo agreement and Balfour declaration.
Six Arab countries attacked Israel at the moment of its birth before its first breath. If the Arabs had accepted the partition plan in 48 we would not be having this discussion.
But hey a miracle occurred and Israel prevailed. But at that juncture Israel had absolute zero connection to Gaza and WB.
So why was a Palestinian state not formed then?? Because those areas were administered by other Arabs. Since Jews not involved no need to cry for a Palestinian state.
In 56 again an attempt to wipe Israel from the map. They lost again. Still no Israeli involvement in WB and Gaza so no need to cry for Palestine.
1967 yet another attempt to destroy Israel. This time they captured the territories. And held onto them again in 73.
To the victors go the spoils.

Any other victorious country that conquered land would have massacred or transferred the population which would be a real crime per Geneva convention.
Israel never did such a thing and the populations have grown.
If they would only give up the dream of trying to destroy Israel they could have lived in peace eons ago. And there would-likely be far less settlements.
And like an Arab could be a citizen of Israel a Jew could be a citizen of Palestine. But like I said Palestine whenever it comes to be is designed to be judenrein from day 1.
So get over accusing the Israelis. They have offered most everything but the kitchen sink in pursuit of peace only to be constantly rejected.
The Arabs just cannot come to terms with that Jewish bone in their throats.


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So basically the British took the land from the Arabs and decided to give the land that's not theirs to Israel. Of course the Arab rebelled.

I mean, they already saw how the Brits capitulated after getting attacked by Zionist terrorist organizations, so why not do the same thing as well and have a fully Arab land.

In any case, there were many Arab Jews prior to the forming of Israel. It's not the Jews that they can't come to terms with, it is Zionists that they can't get to terms with.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 4:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Check your history on how Hamas grew from a purely religious charity to a counterweight to the PLO.

It's not very pretty to Israeli leadership back then.

https://books.google.es/books?id=m_NE9j ... &q&f=false

"A creation of Israel", "Perceived as a healthy phenomenon", but specially:

"The thinking on the part of some of the Israeli right-wing establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to take any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place".

It's the same establishment that would set the stage for a few years later getting Rabin assassinated.



It's not the fault of Israel that Hamas decided to adopt a Charter that called for annihilation. They started themselves as a counterbalance to the PLO, and when the PLO made peace overtures, Hamas stepped in and won the hearts of the religious zealots.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
entdoc
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 4:32 pm

In any case, there were many Arab Jews prior to the forming of Israel. It's not the Jews that they can't come to terms with, it is Zionists that they can't get to terms with.

It is the Jews they cannot come to terms with.
Jews are only tolerated as Dhimmis.
Second class citizens. Along with Christians orthodox Baha’i etc
I personally know Jews who grew up in Persia years ago when Iran and Israel had diplomatic relations.
They were forbidden to go out in rain. Lest the rain drip from a Jew to the street or onto a person rendering them impure.
Tolerated my arse.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 4:40 pm

So basically the British took the land from the Arabs and decided to give the land that's not theirs to Israel. Of course the Arab rebelled.

Actually what is called the holy land has been conquered so many times in history one loses count.
The brits were the last (French in Lebanon Syria etc)
And so they did what they saw fit.
BTW the San Remo accords and Balfour declaration predated the Holocaust by years so don’t use the Holocaust as the reason for Israel’s founding.
As to who was in the land?
Well which religion came first?
Which holy book mentions Jerusalem 300. (Or is it 600?) times?
Which holy book mentions Jerusalem not once?
Which holy book details the purchase including price of the cave of the patriarchs by Abraham the area in Nablus of Joseph tomb by Jacob and mount moriah by David? (Even Christians accept that holy book as part of their religion)
 
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 5:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Israel has to face outside issues that are fat from the norm of a regular country. They are surrounded by people that keep promising annihilation. Israel worked hard towards agreements with the PLO only to be undermined as Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood pushed Hamas into existence. The current Terrorism stance of Hamas and Gaza are not pushing forward any solution.


Check your history on how Hamas grew from a purely religious charity to a counterweight to the PLO.

It's not very pretty to Israeli leadership back then.

https://books.google.es/books?id=m_NE9j ... &q&f=false

"A creation of Israel", "Perceived as a healthy phenomenon", but specially:

"The thinking on the part of some of the Israeli right-wing establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to take any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place".

It's the same establishment that would set the stage for a few years later getting Rabin assassinated.



It's not the fault of Israel that Hamas decided to adopt a Charter that called for annihilation. They started themselves as a counterbalance to the PLO, and when the PLO made peace overtures, Hamas stepped in and won the hearts of the religious zealots.


Totally unexpected that a fundamentalist religious organization would call for an ethnoreligious state.

I mean, who could have seen that coming.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 5:30 pm

entdoc wrote:
So basically the British took the land from the Arabs and decided to give the land that's not theirs to Israel. Of course the Arab rebelled.


"Decided to give" after an armed insurrection which included, among others, assassinating the highest British authority in the region during wartime (against the Nazis, let's remember).

Oh, and subsequently assassinating the UN chief Mediator.

All those heroes of the motherland by now.
 
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Re: Rocket attacks in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 6:23 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
And I guess for you, the Holocaust gives Israel the licence to act in a barbaric manner.


They were attacked, I guess they aren't allowed to fight back?

It seems peace is not possible so I guess this isn't so surprising.
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 6:37 pm

JJJ wrote:
casinterest wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Check your history on how Hamas grew from a purely religious charity to a counterweight to the PLO.

It's not very pretty to Israeli leadership back then.

https://books.google.es/books?id=m_NE9j ... &q&f=false

"A creation of Israel", "Perceived as a healthy phenomenon", but specially:

"The thinking on the part of some of the Israeli right-wing establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to take any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place".

It's the same establishment that would set the stage for a few years later getting Rabin assassinated.



It's not the fault of Israel that Hamas decided to adopt a Charter that called for annihilation. They started themselves as a counterbalance to the PLO, and when the PLO made peace overtures, Hamas stepped in and won the hearts of the religious zealots.


Totally unexpected that a fundamentalist religious organization would call for an ethnoreligious state.

I mean, who could have seen that coming.


Everyone saw it coming ,but the hope was that the PLO had won enough hearts and minds to pull it together. Alas they didn't
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Re: Another Powderkeg in Israel

Mon May 17, 2021 6:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

What Provocation?
The court case is still ongoing and the evictions in Jerusalem hadn't happened yet. Plus it was a 13 year long judicial process.

It looks to me like you just want to find a way to hate Israel, and support terrorism.


I don't think using sweeping and lazy tropes does anyone a service in issues this complex and nuanced.


The FlyingDisk is asking questions that were answered far upthread and ignored. The court case was not finalized. The families had not been removed from their homes as of yet, and yet Terrorist rockets were launched from Gaza. It is the laziness of the anti-Israel lobby to ignore the finer nuances of what is occurring


.


i was thinking the same thing. The case has been ongoing and still has not been decided. There was no reason for the current escalation by Hamas
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