dragon-wings wrote:

I know I am getting older and my memory my be slipping, but didn't Trump win Texas? Why would he force Gov. Abbott to audit the two largest Democratic and Republican counties in Texas when he already won the state?

Trump can't force anyone to do anything. Even when he was president he could not force any state to perform multiple audit's. What you are seeing is the moral cowardice of the republican party that has no real ideology or policies to improve the lives of the American people. It's all about Trump.

wingman wrote:

I was hoping to get the conservative perspective on this but the story is nowhere to be found on Fox. It's possible they haven't heard yet.

They have heard. The problem was never massive voter fraud by Democrats in Arizona. The problem was massive voter fraud in these Democratic areas in Texas. That is where the massive voter fraud was. We have always been at war with Oceania. Eastasia has always been our ally.

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html

nearly 2.1 million Maricopa County ballots still showed Biden defeating Trump, and though the margin changed by 360 votes it was actually Biden whose margin of victory grew from 45,109 to 45,469.

The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

casinterest wrote:

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html

nearly 2.1 million Maricopa County ballots still showed Biden defeating Trump, and though the margin changed by 360 votes it was actually Biden whose margin of victory grew from 45,109 to 45,469.

The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

LCDFlight wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html

nearly 2.1 million Maricopa County ballots still showed Biden defeating Trump, and though the margin changed by 360 votes it was actually Biden whose margin of victory grew from 45,109 to 45,469.

The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Hiring companies with no background in election auditing or IT processes in elections is a good result..?

LCDFlight wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html

nearly 2.1 million Maricopa County ballots still showed Biden defeating Trump, and though the margin changed by 360 votes it was actually Biden whose margin of victory grew from 45,109 to 45,469.

The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

I don't see it that way. People complain about government bureaucracy. This is the height of it. The Conspiracy minded(don't believe in facts that contradict their own irrational beleifs) didn't trust the process or the original auditors involved in the process. So time (we are almost 11 months post election) was wasted with money, that could be put to better use elsewhere to prove out the result that everyone except the conspiracy theorists believed.

Guess what, those conspiracy theorists and their followers , still won't believe.

LCDFlight wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html

nearly 2.1 million Maricopa County ballots still showed Biden defeating Trump, and though the margin changed by 360 votes it was actually Biden whose margin of victory grew from 45,109 to 45,469.

The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The Arizona GOP wasted Millions of dollars of taxpayer and donor money to give Biden 360 more votes.
Now,if other state GOP's have their way, will they pay even more to give Biden more votes?

The sad part of all of this is that the Arizona GOP doesn't even trust the local officials who were entrusted to make the process fair.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... fraud.html



The needle only moved by about .015%, and that is well under the margin of error.

Remember, people lost their jobs at Fox news, because they made the correct call of Arizona.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-fox-ne ... tion-night


Hopefully the other audits go away and everyone starts to recognize that their is no gain in conspiracy theories against the US election.

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

LCDFlight wrote:

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

While your logic is not necessarily wrong, the premise of "people were questioning," is flawed. People were "questioning" because the guy who lost pitched a royal temper tantum like King John from Robin Hood and has to be coddled while he sucks his thumb in the corner. And like a bunch of schmucks, Arizona Republican Senators handed that bill to the schmucky tax paying Trump supporters who will also demand that other tax payers do it. Because Trump didn't spend a DIME on it.

LCDFlight wrote:

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

Would you trust an American citizen? That is who our election officials are. Unpartisan , following common rules.
That is why places that have these "New Election Rules" that give oversight to a politician such as in Georgia are so wrong and un American.

LCDFlight wrote:

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

This is the horror that Trumpo has given us. Because of the FACT that he and his followers do not believe facts and the myriad safeguards of our independent election process, they now feel it is reasonable to believe the "other party" and probably ANYONE would do it, meaning lie and make false statements to steal an election.

But the truth is THEY did it. Republican's ARE DOING IT. STILL.

It is a failure on the Republican's part in so many ways.

Trump is an utter menace to the USA.

And I hope he does run in 2024 cuz' he'll lose badly. So badly all his bleating will become even more obvious and his followers will have less room to work in. They'll still be there but the lunatic fringe has always existed. They will just be more on the fringe (And unhinged).

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

This is the horror that Trumpo has given us. Because of the FACT that he and his followers do not believe facts and the myriad safeguards of our independent election process, they now feel it is reasonable to believe the "other party" and probably ANYONE would do it, meaning lie and make false statements to steal an election.

But the truth is THEY did it. Republican's ARE DOING IT. STILL.

It is a failure on the Republican's part in so many ways.

Trump is an utter menace to the USA.

And I hope he does run in 2024 cuz' he'll lose badly. So badly all his bleating will become even more obvious and his followers will have less room to work in. They'll still be there but the lunatic fringe has always existed. They will just be more on the fringe (And unhinged).

Tugg

The fact tens of millions of US voters were questioning the election makes it a significant question that should be answered. Even if the rumors came from interstellar unicorn piss. The question was answered! That’s good.

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

This is the horror that Trumpo has given us. Because of the FACT that he and his followers do not believe facts and the myriad safeguards of our independent election process, they now feel it is reasonable to believe the "other party" and probably ANYONE would do it, meaning lie and make false statements to steal an election.

But the truth is THEY did it. Republican's ARE DOING IT. STILL.

It is a failure on the Republican's part in so many ways.

Trump is an utter menace to the USA.

And I hope he does run in 2024 cuz' he'll lose badly. So badly all his bleating will become even more obvious and his followers will have less room to work in. They'll still be there but the lunatic fringe has always existed. They will just be more on the fringe (And unhinged).

Tugg

The fact tens of millions of US voters were questioning the election makes it a significant question that should be answered. Even if the rumors came from interstellar unicorn piss. The question was answered! That’s good.

Tens of millions were questioning it, because they were blindly following misleading politicians and media outlets that had no proof. Only Gaslighting.

LCDFlight wrote:

Tugger wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

This is the horror that Trumpo has given us. Because of the FACT that he and his followers do not believe facts and the myriad safeguards of our independent election process, they now feel it is reasonable to believe the "other party" and probably ANYONE would do it, meaning lie and make false statements to steal an election.

But the truth is THEY did it. Republican's ARE DOING IT. STILL.

It is a failure on the Republican's part in so many ways.

Trump is an utter menace to the USA.

And I hope he does run in 2024 cuz' he'll lose badly. So badly all his bleating will become even more obvious and his followers will have less room to work in. They'll still be there but the lunatic fringe has always existed. They will just be more on the fringe (And unhinged).

Tugg

The fact tens of millions of US voters were questioning the election makes it a significant question that should be answered. Even if the rumors came from interstellar unicorn piss. The question was answered! That’s good.

Yeah, I have to say that if it is "unicorn piss" then I will respond as I am responding to a child. It is not a good VALID reason to create a serious challenge. It's like saying "why is the sky blue?" Well child, let me show you facts already available and next time you will be able to answer these types of silly questions yourself.

I have good friends (best friends) that are Trumpers and have thrown this crap at me and give them no safe harbor. I go all out on them and dig into the actual facts they are depending on and can refute them all. Stupid ideas do not get the same respect as serious ones nor deserve full scale "investigations". Every states answered the questions, Republican or Democrat. The people that are still touting this crap are 1.) too lazy to actually look into the available facts. Or 2.) are being willingly gullible for unknown reasons thought likely related to pouting.

Tugg

I like this take on the farce in AZ by the Republican supporters there:
https://newrepublic.com/article/163796/ ... ns-victory

Basically the results from the farce put on by Trumplican's and Cyber Ninjas are nothing. Prove nothing. Confirm nothing. Because there was nothing to prove. And I do agree that giving any legitimacy to the farce just enables others to do it again. That the farce proves and therefore changes nothing is demonstrated by the fact that Trump and Trumplicans have not changed their tune one iota.

They don't need facts, even farcical facts will do nothing to stop them from screaming and trying to force themselves onto the US public as the only and rightful rulers that all must bow to.

So this "result" will do nothing for anyone anywhere.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

I like this take on the farce in AZ by the Republican supporters there:
https://newrepublic.com/article/163796/ ... ns-victory

Basically the results from the farce put on by Trumplican's and Cyber Ninjas are nothing. Prove nothing. Confirm nothing. Because there was nothing to prove. And I do agree that giving any legitimacy to the farce just enables others to do it again. That the farce proves and therefore changes nothing is demonstrated by the fact that Trump and Trumplicans have not changed there tune one iota.

They don't need facts, even farcical facts will do nothing to stop them from screaming and trying to force themselves onto the US public as the only and rightful rulers that all must bow to.

So this "result" will do nothing for anyone anywhere.

Tugg

Yes, in a sense the needle did not move on the national status quo except this latest audit grift is a success so now others will cash in.

Aaron747 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I like this take on the farce in AZ by the Republican supporters there:
https://newrepublic.com/article/163796/ ... ns-victory

Basically the results from the farce put on by Trumplican's and Cyber Ninjas are nothing. Prove nothing. Confirm nothing. Because there was nothing to prove. And I do agree that giving any legitimacy to the farce just enables others to do it again. That the farce proves and therefore changes nothing is demonstrated by the fact that Trump and Trumplicans have not changed there tune one iota.

They don't need facts, even farcical facts will do nothing to stop them from screaming and trying to force themselves onto the US public as the only and rightful rulers that all must bow to.

So this "result" will do nothing for anyone anywhere.

Tugg

Yes, in a sense the needle did not move on the national status quo except this latest audit grift is a success so now others will cash in.

What needs to happen is that the GOP Commisioners from Maricopa county needs to file a federal lawsuit against the Senate GOP. However due to way the GOP works, it will not happen.
What should also happen is full transparency from the cyber Ninjas for their role and who paid their salaries outside of GOP senate channels.
It won't happen soon, but i expect that lawsuit will trigger some run to the hills and perhaps some federal charges for election fraud.

LCDFlight wrote:

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don’t quite agree that it is wasteful to improve the credibility of the election. People were questioning the election, whether they might be social media trolls from Russia or China for that matter. I think it is valid to raise questions. Raise those doubts. Obtain transparency. Test the process. This was a good result.

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

Republicans in several states are moving to make themselves the only choice. How is that not voter fraud? Making it harder and harder for non-Republicans to vote or get any kind of voice? This is third-world stuff. This is what dictators do. Vote for anyone you want, as long as you vote Republican.

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Biden actually picked up votes in Maricopa County. He still won. The only reason people were questioning the election is because of who lost. Why do you think the attempted overthrow on 1/6 happened? Not because of social media, not because of Russia or China. Because people are told, still, to this day, the election was fake. All because their guy lost. This didn't happen in 2016. Any guesses as to why? My theory is Democrats believe in democracy and the system. Democrats use critical thinking and understand there was no stuffing the ballot box or Italian space lasers or leaders screaming "FAKE!!!" and "FRAUD!!!" at every turn.

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

Republicans in several states are moving to make themselves the only choice. How is that not voter fraud? Making it harder and harder for non-Republicans to vote or get any kind of voice? This is third-world stuff. This is what dictators do. Vote for anyone you want, as long as you vote Republican.

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

Do you have evidence to show both parties want a dictatorship? I am seeing more Republican leaning elements seeming to want to enforce modalities that move that way more than I see it with other parties. Even blue as hell California enacted rules to limit/reduce (not eliminate) gerrymandering in the state when it redraws districts. I don't think I have seen that in any Republican lead states. (If there I am interested is knowing.)

Tugg

LCDFlight wrote:

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I would not trust Democrats OR Republicans to conduct an election fairly. If they could steal an election, they would. Trust, but verify.

Republicans in several states are moving to make themselves the only choice. How is that not voter fraud? Making it harder and harder for non-Republicans to vote or get any kind of voice? This is third-world stuff. This is what dictators do. Vote for anyone you want, as long as you vote Republican.

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

Even if this is true of some elements in the two major parties, it doesn’t excuse fraudulent auditing of elections by unofficial parties just to soothe feelings of adult crybabies. It’s like participation trophy hunting for voters...you don’t find it ridiculous?

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

Newark727 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. It’s not some wild new 2020 thing. It’s always there.

I thought Mueller was going to confirm Trump stole the election and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

LCDFlight wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. Isnt it true that more people believe Trump stole 2016 than believe Biden stole 2020? I thought Mueller was going to confirm that and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

2016 - the validity of the election process was not in significant question, but the impact of external powers on campaigning most certainly was. The election was overall secure, even though the rickety electoral college meant the will of the land rather than the will of the people elected the President.

2000 - the election was overall secure, but hanging chads and the opportunity for contested counts was a real issue.

A fortnight before the election day last year, Trump claimed widespread fraud. There is still no evedence that this was the case - it was a classic populist play to rally election day support against the enemy.

LCDFlight wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. It’s not some wild new 2020 thing. It’s always there.

I thought Mueller was going to confirm Trump stole the election and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

Ehh... to me it comes down to who is doing the most to ensure their party alone is in the best position in election day. Redistricting is a big part of that now and I see more Red controlled legislatures doing all they can to ensure their party wins out than I do Blue controlled states.

If you think am wrong please let me know which states are actively doing it now.

Interesting site showing the various states and how they redistrict.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/redistric ... rview.aspx

Tugg

Kent350787 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. Isnt it true that more people believe Trump stole 2016 than believe Biden stole 2020? I thought Mueller was going to confirm that and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

2016 - the validity of the election process was not in significant question, but the impact of external powers on campaigning most certainly was. The election was overall secure, even though the rickety electoral college meant the will of the land rather than the will of the people elected the President.

2000 - the election was overall secure, but hanging chads and the opportunity for contested counts was a real issue.

A fortnight before the election day last year, Trump claimed widespread fraud. There is still no evedence that this was the case - it was a classic populist play to rally election day support against the enemy.

You are absolutely right that Trump was lying (or making false claims) about the election’s integrity. He was hoping something dramatic would be found, and there wasn’t. The unfortunate thing here is that Russiagate was arguably a parallel to this. Very unfortunate.

This, gerrymandering aspect, is of course now well off topic, but to answer my own question, there is now this:
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... 020-census
Tugg

LCDFlight wrote:

I thought Mueller was going to confirm Trump stole the election and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told?

Ummm no, I wasn't told that. If you were, you heard wrong. Russiagate is also not parallel in that ongoing efforts to destabilize our processes *were* identified, as well as links to some individuals in Trump orbit, but nothing definitive linked to Trump himself. That never constituted a 'stolen' election, even if a handful of people characterized it as such. The troll armies and misinformation apparatus of Russia are still active, in case you haven't noticed. Not remotely similar to several unscrupulous attorneys claiming systemic fraud in multiple states where none has been found.

LCDFlight wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Both parties are against democracy. They are both going full tilt to try to build a single party dictatorship. Republicans would love to build a dictatorship. So would Democrats. Many people cheer for that. But it’s not a cool thing.

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. It’s not some wild new 2020 thing. It’s always there.

I thought Mueller was going to confirm Trump stole the election and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

When did Democrats, progressives, and liberals get together to attempt a coup? When have Democratic led states enacted laws that restrict voting for Republicans? You can "whatabout" all day long, but it is clear to the rest of us that only one party is actually and actively working to make this a fascist state.

And, yes, the Mueller report did show contact between team MAGA and Russia. They even demanded a private line free from government ears direct to Putin. All of this has already been established.

https://time.com/5565991/russia-influen ... -election/
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... -for-trump

We are not going to discuss this further. It happened. Links are provided every time. Russia interfered on behalf of MAGA. It happened. Get over it.

seb146 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

This is bull and you know it. Both sides did not claim the election was stolen. Both sides did not sack the Capitol when their side lost. Both sides did not play Calvinball with vacancies on the Supreme Court (apparently with expectation of a quid pro quo.) Both sides have not been trying to rewrite election laws to favor some voters over others.

How about the Trump in 2016? How about Bush in 2000? Is it bull to say that those elections were widely claimed to be stolen? People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. There are thousands of articles and essays that were published on these topics. It’s not some wild new 2020 thing. It’s always there.

I thought Mueller was going to confirm Trump stole the election and remove Trump. Wasn’t that what we were told? Wasn’t that long ago... Totally agree with you that the Capitol invasion was horrible. Punish the hell out of those people.

When did Democrats, progressives, and liberals get together to attempt a coup? When have Democratic led states enacted laws that restrict voting for Republicans? You can "whatabout" all day long, but it is clear to the rest of us that only one party is actually and actively working to make this a fascist state.

You’re right. The examples I brought up were large succession doubt campaigns, but they did not take their clowning into the Capitol, at least not without permission. I’m not underplaying how sickening the violation of the Capitol was. But if you find them credible as potential coup ringleaders, I don’t. Just some idiot clowns who should be arrested or quelled using force. It was a wake-up call about basic crowd control and civil order.

LCDFlight wrote:

You’re right. The examples I brought up were large succession doubt campaigns, but they did not take their clowning into the Capitol, at least not without permission. I’m not underplaying how sickening the violation of the Capitol was. But if you find them credible as potential coup ringleaders, I don’t. Just some idiot clowns who should be arrested or quelled using force. It was a wake-up call about basic crowd control and civil order.

I agree that they were a bunch of idiot clowns who clearly didn’t have a clue, but I think what you’re suggesting is a little too akin to the old “boys will be boys” type argument over punishment.

They made a (relatively) successful attack on the US govt on one of the most pivotal days in regards to the peaceful transfer of power. It’s not the type of thing that can be brushed over as a bunch of crazy old rascals that got a little wild. Because although this time it was a bunch of poorly organized idiots, next time it might not be. Come down brutally hard and make an example that you can’t do this and get off easy, and maybe there is no next time…

phatfarmlines wrote:

Last weekend (9/25-9/26), Trump held a rally in Perry, GA, declaring he won AZ.

At Georgia Rally, Trump Falsely Claims Arizona Audit Found He Won in Maricopa County

Source: Newsweek

Statements to the contrary wouldn't register with a rally crowd anyway. They're there to be entertained and validated, not engaged.

luckyone wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

Last weekend (9/25-9/26), Trump held a rally in Perry, GA, declaring he won AZ.

At Georgia Rally, Trump Falsely Claims Arizona Audit Found He Won in Maricopa County

Source: Newsweek

Statements to the contrary wouldn't register with a rally crowd anyway. They're there to be entertained and validated, not engaged.

Performance art combined with wanton stupidity, immaturity, and disinformation. What a gross combination.

Aaron747 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

Last weekend (9/25-9/26), Trump held a rally in Perry, GA, declaring he won AZ.

At Georgia Rally, Trump Falsely Claims Arizona Audit Found He Won in Maricopa County

Source: Newsweek

Statements to the contrary wouldn't register with a rally crowd anyway. They're there to be entertained and validated, not engaged.

Performance art combined with wanton stupidity, immaturity, and disinformation. What a gross combination.

Out of complete fairness I would say the same principle applies at just about any political rally. In the era of mass media there's no need to go hear these people speak in person, and no room for nuance at a rally whether you're Donald Trump or "Evil Billionaire" Bernie Sanders.

luckyone wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Statements to the contrary wouldn't register with a rally crowd anyway. They're there to be entertained and validated, not engaged.

Performance art combined with wanton stupidity, immaturity, and disinformation. What a gross combination.

Out of complete fairness I would say the same principle applies at just about any political rally. In the era of mass media there's no need to go hear these people speak in person, and no room for nuance at a rally whether you're Donald Trump or "Evil Billionaire" Bernie Sanders.

Agreed, though out of *complete* fairness I'd argue that while he's wrong, Sanders is at least well-intentioned.

LCDFlight wrote:

People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. .

That last statement shows the insidious nature of conspiracy theories. In this case the conspiracy that Kennedy stole the 1960 election. It doesn't matter that no concrete proof has ever been produced proving this.

I've heard the stories of Richard Daley delivering Illinois to Kennedy through nefarious means. This ignores one very important fact. The fact being that if you win in the city of Chicago by a big enough margin you will win the state of Illinois. One of the biggest ethnic groups in Chicago is Irish Catholic. Who do you think they were going to vote for?

Here's something you probably didn't know. California went initially to JFK, Nixon was only able to claim California 17 Nov 1960 after absentee ballots were counted. Now where else have we heard of absentee ballots putting someone over the top? Now if anyone has never heard this little fact let me tell you why. Because it does not fit the narrative of the people pushing this election fraud idiocy.

LMP737 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

People say Kennedy stole 1960, and it’s not entirely debunked as far ask I know. .

That last statement shows the insidious nature of conspiracy theories. In this case the conspiracy that Kennedy stole the 1960 election. It doesn't matter that no concrete proof has ever been produced proving this.

I've heard the stories of Richard Daley delivering Illinois to Kennedy through nefarious means. This ignores one very important fact. The fact being that if you win in the city of Chicago by a big enough margin you will win the state of Illinois. One of the biggest ethnic groups in Chicago is Irish Catholic. Who do you think they were going to vote for?

Here's something you probably didn't know. California went initially to JFK, Nixon was only able to claim California 17 Nov 1960 after absentee ballots were counted. Now where else have we heard of absentee ballots putting someone over the top? Now if anyone has never heard this little fact let me tell you why. Because it does not fit the narrative of the people pushing this election fraud idiocy.

Thanks for your post. For clarity - JFK won Illinois by under 10,000 votes out of over 2.3 million per side, 4.7 million cast. Under 0.2%. Neither one of us can claim to "know" what happened there. What you said, that Chicago can sway Illinois (and hence sway the US presidential election) is exactly the point. This is achievable. A bad guy can steal an election. (Although in 1960, Illinois alone would not have gotten Nixon the election. He still needed to pull another 20 or so electoral votes from JFK). Anyway, there need to be measures in place confirming that does not happen.

Looks like the Senate is working hard in AZ to protect their partisan deliberations over hiring a firm for a unneeded Audit.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizo ... w-records1

On the one hand you have the Senate trying to protect it's records of dealings with a third party,
and on the other hand you have public records related to a unneeded audit.
Should be interesting to see how this goes.

https://www.azfamily.com/news/politics/ ... 1ed60.html

But state Sen. Wendy Rogers, a Republican from Flagstaff, slammed Bennett on Twitter for testifying that the unprecedented election review was never about overturning the election. "If that is what she believes and if that is what she is promoting, I think she is being disingenuous and misleading people," said Bennett, who is also a Republican.

At the heart of it all, I think everyone needs to know who funded this audit and why, and why people such as Wendy Rogers, who never tallied a vote, continues to attack democracy.

LCDFlight wrote:

Thanks for your post. For clarity - JFK won Illinois by under 10,000 votes out of over 2.3 million per side, 4.7 million cast. Under 0.2%. Neither one of us can claim to "know" what happened there.

For further clarity Nixon won his own home state by a narrower margin, 50.1%, than Kennedy's win in Texas, 50.5%. And he only did so after the absentee ballots were counted in California.

LCDFlight wrote:

What you said, that Chicago can sway Illinois (and hence sway the US presidential election) is exactly the point. This is achievable. A bad guy can steal an election. (Although in 1960, Illinois alone would not have gotten Nixon the election. He still needed to pull another 20 or so electoral votes from JFK). .

Why are you not making the same argument in regards to California in the 1960 election? After all, it was super close and had been initially called for JFK. NIxon's power base was in SoCal, the most populous part of state. We all know that Nixon was not above playing dirty pool. So why no hand wringing over absentee ballots putting Nixon over the top? The answer is simple, it does not fit the narrative that has been put out all these years. If JFK has won California, Illinois would have been irrelevant. I'm guessing you were not even aware of either one of these facts. But then again neither one of us can claim to know what happened there. See, two can play that game.

LCDFlight wrote:

Anyway, there need to be measures in place confirming that does not happen

Those measures already exist. When you have people with decades of experience running elections being hounded out of office, or have people running for Secretary of State buying into the 2020 election lies that where the real danger is.

https://www.propublica.org/article/trum ... e-resigned

FGITD wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

It’s not the type of thing that can be brushed over as a bunch of crazy old rascals that got a little wild. Because although this time…

Lmao my state senator Kyrsten Sinema would like you to hold her coffee while she sits by and lets the Republicans filibuster the Freedom to vote act. It's utterly obscene. No where in the constitution is the filibuster rule written. We'll see if those two or three senators continue letting it be brushed over.

phatfarmlines wrote:

The Cyber Ninjas CEO was a no-show to appear before a House subcommittee meeting on October 6th:

Cyber Ninjas CEO declines US House request to testify at Arizona audit hearing

Source: KTAR News

Sigh, if only they had the authority to compel him to attend such a hearing. My hand is getting tired from all this yawning and pearl clutching on the part of the party in power these days.

Things are really spiraling for Cyber Ninjas now.

https://news.yahoo.com/cyber-ninjas-com ... 00651.html

Dartunorro Clark
Thu, January 6, 2022, 9:56 PM·2 min read
Cyber Ninjas, the company that led a partisan review of 2020 ballots in Arizona, is closing down following a scathing report by election officials and the threat of $50,000 a day in fines.

"Cyber Ninjas is shutting down. All employees have been let go," Rod Thomson, the company's representative, said in a text message Thursday evening.

Basically. The whole Arizona Audit was fraudulent, and they couldn't back up any of their claims. Especially when Maricopa county went after them.

[quote

County election officials released a report Wednesday rebutting almost every claim in the ballot review. It concluded that nearly 80 claims made by Cyber Ninjas were misleading or false.[/quote]

Remember, this audit grew from Trump's big lie. Even William Barr knew it was a lie.

The ballot review grew out of Republican legislators' efforts to overturn Biden's victory, even as Trump's top cybersecurity official at the time said the election was “the most secure in American history." Then-Attorney General William Barr also said the Justice Department had found no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Interesting last run of the fraud examples out of Pima.
151 cases of duplicate voting tossed as they couldn't get to criminal intent. As the article states many were confused by Trump's call for people that had done mail in ballots to vote in person if they couldn't verify the mail in vote.

https://apnews.com/article/business-ele ... f84beabf06

Deputy recorder Pamela Franklin told the AP in July that the county saw an unusually high number of people who appeared to have intentionally voted twice, often by voting early in person and then again by mail. In Arizona, where nearly 80% of voters cast ballots by mail, it’s not unusual for someone to forget they returned their mail-in ballot and then later ask for a replacement or try to vote in person, she said. But this pattern was new.

Franklin noted several factors at play, including worries about U.S. Postal Service delays. In addition, Trump at one point encouraged voters who cast their ballots early by mail to show up at their polling places on Election Day and vote again if poll workers couldn’t confirm their mail ballots had been received.

An interesting follow up to another article within about battleground state fraud that I will post in the Jan 6 thread as it makes more sense there