Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
luckyone
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:13 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

Tell that to someone who shows up high or drunk at work. Does your employer allow you to do that? Your body, your choice, right?

Jeremy


Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice? My work also doesn’t allow me to work sick, but I’m not required to give a doctor’s diagnosis of what I have…because…privacy. They also require me to have a medical examination. But they don’t get to know anything about my health, only that I am deemed fit by a medical doctor.

One can argue if not vaccinated you are not fit work, you become too high risk for yourself getting sick or infecting customers/flyers you come in contact with.

In the United States, if your employer wished, they could make your immunization records a condition of your employment, and there's not a thing you can do about it other than look somewhere else. I just changed jobs, and spent more time filling out the immunization paperwork than I did on the interview.
 
CaptHadley
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
Now just wait a minute here. So you get the vaccine yet you can still possibly catch "The Vid"? So you want all new hires, as well as all employees, to get a vaccine that is not 100% effective?
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html


No vaccine is 100% effective.


Then why force it on somebody under the threat of termination? Why isn't there the same, over the top, response to the flu vaccine? Why not make the flu vaccine mandatory for employment
 
CaptHadley
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:26 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

Tell that to someone who shows up high or drunk at work. Does your employer allow you to do that? Your body, your choice, right?

Jeremy


Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice? My work also doesn’t allow me to work sick, but I’m not required to give a doctor’s diagnosis of what I have…because…privacy. They also require me to have a medical examination. But they don’t get to know anything about my health, only that I am deemed fit by a medical doctor.

One can argue if not vaccinated you are not fit work, you become too high risk for yourself getting sick or infecting customers/flyers you come in contact with.


What about the common cold.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:27 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:

Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice? My work also doesn’t allow me to work sick, but I’m not required to give a doctor’s diagnosis of what I have…because…privacy. They also require me to have a medical examination. But they don’t get to know anything about my health, only that I am deemed fit by a medical doctor.

One can argue if not vaccinated you are not fit work, you become too high risk for yourself getting sick or infecting customers/flyers you come in contact with.


What about the common cold.

Make that silly argument when 1. The common cold overwhelms healthcare resources, and 2. Has a vaccine. You can't effectively vaccinate against the common cold due to the fact that it rapidly mutates.
Last edited by luckyone on Sat May 15, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:29 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
Now just wait a minute here. So you get the vaccine yet you can still possibly catch "The Vid"? So you want all new hires, as well as all employees, to get a vaccine that is not 100% effective?
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html


No vaccine is 100% effective.


Then why force it on somebody under the threat of termination? Why isn't there the same, over the top, response to the flu vaccine? Why not make the flu vaccine mandatory for employment

See reply Number 48:
luckyone wrote:
Same with the flu shot. My employer requires me to get the flu shot. My last four or five jobs I've had to demonstrate immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis, and not have TB before they'll let me in the door.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 2:34 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
Now just wait a minute here. So you get the vaccine yet you can still possibly catch "The Vid"? So you want all new hires, as well as all employees, to get a vaccine that is not 100% effective?
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html


No vaccine is 100% effective.


Then why force it on somebody under the threat of termination? Why isn't there the same, over the top, response to the flu vaccine? Why not make the flu vaccine mandatory for employment


If you have to ask this question, it might be time to take Bio 101 again.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
alfa164
Posts: 3951
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 3:23 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
Wait, so everyone who doesn’t want to get a vaccine for a virus that has a 99.98 survivability rate (depending on age/health/etc)...


Check your math; 600,000 deaths among 33,000,000 million infected is an (approximately) 2% mortality rate - not a .02% death percentage. You should avoid spreading disinformation here - even if you need it to support your position.

JoseSalazar wrote:
... and that doesn’t have much long term efficacy data (ie when does the covid protection wear off)...


You know that? That's interesting, because medical experts are still testing to determining the long-term efficacy. You should send them your findings!

JoseSalazar wrote:
Everyone I know who doesn’t want to get this vaccine has all their other normal vaccines. I’d hardly call people who don’t want one particular vaccine anti-vaxxers.


Okay... instead of calling them "anti-vaxxers", let's just call them ignorant, self-centered idiots.

JoseSalazar wrote:
Do you see what the media and politicians are doing here, dividing and shaming people?


Only a few of the media and politicians - those associated with the far right - are dividing and shaming people - and they are shaming the people who are are doing the right thing: getting vaccinated.

JoseSalazar wrote:
Here you are advocating for people to lose their job because they don’t want to get a shot? If people are concerned about getting covid, those people should get the vaccine. But whether or not someone else gets the vaccine is none of anyone’s business, as is the case for all other medical data. Call me old school, but I value privacy.


Employees are expected to maintain certain standards and practices, for the health and safety of their fellow employees, customers, and associates. Are the same people whining about taking a vaccine also whining about having to take drug test? Employers have every right to be assured their employees meet certain health standards - and, in the midst of a world-wide pandemic, vaccination against that pervasive disease is really not too much to ask.

Francoflier wrote:
By not getting vaccinated, you are still a threat to everyone as first of all, some people cannot get vaccinated and even those who are vaccinated can get infected and sick from it, even if the probability is much lower. The more people refuse to get vaccinated, the more the virus will circulate and be able to mutate around the current vaccines, eventually putting even vaccinated people at risk.


:checkmark: This. . It is fascinating to watch how much people change their mind about Covid once they have come down with the disease. "If only I had paid attention sooner..."

Francoflier wrote:
It may not be 'choosing to harm others', but it certainly is 'choosing to be an increased risk to others (and oneself)'. Either way, this is not a behavior that is deserving of much sympathy.


Antisocial behavior seems to have become a badge of honor among a small subset of Americans.

jfklganyc wrote:
Amen!
This isnt about you as an individual. This is beyond you as an individual. I went out and got my vaccine as soon as I could, and I don’t want to sit next to you in the cockpit choosing not to get vaccinated. You are unnecessarily putting me at risk in the workplace environment...And I am a dues paying union member just like you. You can choose not to get vaccinated, The company can choose not to have you as an employee.


Amen to you! And thank you for your logical, intelligent, and just downright decent decision.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
M564038
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 3:49 pm

You reduce the transmission rate to a tiny fraction, and you achieve herd immunity: Pandemic over.
You need far from a 100% reduction to achieve that, but barring a 100% effective vaccine, you do need even mote people to actually take the vaccine.
This is not hard math, is it?

Have you ever noticed how in very moist air, sounds get awfully bright?
It is because the water droplets is so close most of them is close enough to another one to actually carry sound through water in the air.
Reduce the moisture by a certain amount and it suddenly goes very muffled. You have broken the transmission chain. The sound doesn’t carry in that medium any more.

For the sake of humans everywhere, Get vaccinated if you can. This is NOT about individual risk. This is all about making the transmission chain as weak as possible to reduce the COLLECTIVE risk.

This is about your freedom ending where my begins.


CaptHadley wrote:
Now just wait a minute here. So you get the vaccine yet you can still possibly catch "The Vid"? So you want all new hires, as well as all employees, to get a vaccine that is not 100% effective?
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html
Last edited by M564038 on Sat May 15, 2021 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15708
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 3:56 pm

Cockpit and cabin crew on international flights will likely be required to get the Covid-19 vaccines by the countries they will be flying into and likely the USA may require the same of foreign airliner crews. By having all employees vaccinated it makes it a lot easier for staffing organization, health and safety of employees, don't lose employees and related costs by those getting sick, dying.
 
travaz
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 4:24 pm

airtran737 wrote:
It's a bold strategy seeing as the vaccines have not been approved and are being administered via an exemption. That being said, I am holding out as long as possible I hope to be pulled off as many trips as possible and be pay protected to do nothing.

This it seems is the new American way.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 4:28 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Check your math; 600,000 deaths among 33,000,000 million infected is an (approximately) 2% mortality rate - not a .02% death percentage. You should avoid spreading disinformation here - even if you need it to support your position.




I think you are confusing Case Fatality Ratio with Infection Fatality Ratio. The number of those who are/were actually infected is much higher than the number of confirmed infected. So, going only by the confirmed cases isn't a good measure. Early figures indicated the actual infection rate was around 10x that of the tested confirmed rate. As more testing and antibody testing has been done, all of which apparently goes into the positive count, that multiplier has come down. Last I saw it was estimated to be about 2x-3x the number of positive tests, but we don't really know the true answer. We have a pretty good idea though. And it's much higher than the confirmed number. So, go do some research and find out the estimated total number of infections in the US, then figure out the IFR.

Then, look at the data by age, How many of those deaths were elderly? The age range of 30-39 has accounted for only 1.1% of all covid related deaths. 18-29 is 0.4%, and under 18 is 0.05%. Yet those age ranges also have the highest number of total infections. So do some math and tell me again what the chances of dying are for those under 40? Definitely not 2%. Not anywhere close to that. If I use the 30-39 year range (covers the median age in the USA), there are roughly 44 million people in the USA in that range. Let's assume only 10 million of them have been infected (guessing the actual number is much higher given the age distribution of covid infections), and since there are only 6,299 covid related deaths in that age range, 6,299/10,000,000=0.00063. As that numerator grows, the IFR decreases proportionally. So someone who is the median age in America of 38 has a 0.06% chance of dying from covid if they get infected (probably less with the likely larger denominator)? Under 30 even less. The data is exponentially worse for aging populations, who should probably all get vaccinated, as they are the vulnerable.


You know that? That's interesting, because medical experts are still testing to determining the long-term efficacy. You should send them your findings!


That's exactly my point. If I have immunity from that actual virus, that might last as long or longer than immunity from the vaccine...they don't know the definite answers yet for how long immunity from either lasts.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 4:46 pm

nwadeicer wrote:

Again, N-e-v-e-r going to happen. Yeah, we want you to have something, that's only been developed in the past 6ish months, to be injected into your body. This whole new, employee vaccinated push, is strictly theater to appease the flying public, much like their middle seat open schtick. It's almost like Delta lately is pushing to have their employees sign up to qualify for a union vote?


There’s a lot things happening that (in theory) should be driving A-card signing. I don’t think this will prove to be one of them- especially since current employees are examples from this mandate.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19926
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 5:05 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
scbriml wrote:
No vaccine is 100% effective.


Then why force it on somebody under the threat of termination?


Firstly, the Covid-19 vaccines are very effective, with the caveat that no vaccine is 100% effective. Do you think we shouldn't vaccinate against other diseases like Smallpox, Measles, etc. because those vaccines aren't 100% effective?

Who is forcing a vaccination on anyone under the threat of termination?

CaptHadley wrote:
Why isn't there the same, over the top, response to the flu vaccine?


Because 'flu isn't anywhere near as deadly as Covid-19 has proven to be - the numbers vary, but in the US Covid-19 has killed about 10 times the number of maximum deaths ever seen in any given year from 'flu. 'Flu also tends to be far more dangerous to the very old and very young. In the UK, 'flu vaccine is offered to everyone over 65 free of charge.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3951
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 6:43 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Check your math; 600,000 deaths among 33,000,000 million infected is an (approximately) 2% mortality rate - not a .02% death percentage. You should avoid spreading disinformation here - even if you need it to support your position.

I think you are confusing Case Fatality Ratio with Infection Fatality Ratio. The number of those who are/were actually infected is much higher than the number of confirmed infected. So, going only by the confirmed cases isn't a good measure. Early figures indicated the actual infection rate was around 10x that of the tested confirmed rate. As more testing and antibody testing has been done, all of which apparently goes into the positive count, that multiplier has come down. Last I saw it was estimated to be about 2x-3x the number of positive tests, but we don't really know the true answer.


But your claim was that it was 100 times less - not "2x-3x" the number of positive tests. Did you actually find that number somewhere - or just make it up?

JoseSalazar wrote:
So, go do some research and find out the estimated total number of infections in the US, then figure out the IFR.


That's not my job. You are the one making false claims.

JoseSalazar wrote:
Then, look at the data by age, How many of those deaths were elderly?


I got it! You can skip the vaccine, kill grandma, but you go on living your life because you are younger. That's what parts of our society have come down to...

:roll:


JoseSalazar wrote:
If I have immunity from that actual virus, that might last as long or longer than immunity from the vaccine...they don't know the definite answers yet for how long immunity from either lasts.


And that is even more reason to get the vaccine. We know it works, even though we can't be sure how long it will protect us. Get rid of the spread now, before it becomes totally unmanageable.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 7:09 pm

alfa164 wrote:

But your claim was that it was 100 times less - not "2x-3x" the number of positive tests. Did you actually find that number somewhere - or just make it up?

That's not my job. You are the one making false claims.


I literally laid out the math for you using figures from the CDC's website. My claims are most certainly not false. What is false is your 2% fatality rate figure you threw out. Maybe re-read my post, slowly, and try to follow along. The one unknown is the denominator: how many people actually have had the virus vs how many positive tests there have been. And the estimates for that are 2x-10x (10x being the estimated number back before there was a ton of testing and antibody testing). Today with as much testing as there has been, 2-3x is a more probable number, making the denominator 70-100mil actual cases since there are ~33 million confirmed cases at this point. So, go re-read...I did the math for you.

got it! You can skip the vaccine, kill grandma, but you go on living your life because you are younger. That's what parts of our society have come down to...

Kill grandma? My grandparents are long dead. But to that point, "grandma" can get a vaccine. And wear a mask. And socially distance. And her resultant risk of death or even hospitalization from covid is de minimis. See how that works? Guess what. Grandma still has risk for all sorts of things...cold, flu, pneumonia, etc. But we haven't historically (pre-covid) worn masks or socially distanced to prevent that, have we? And now we are mask off indoors if vaxxed--but we can still spread cold/flu to grandma, right? But now vaccine and mask shaming is acceptable because of the very very small chance a vaccinated person can still get covid and have a bad reaction? Did you mask up your whole life until covid? No? Are you mask off post-vax? So you are a grandma killer risking giving her cold/flu? Got it.

What is grandma's risk of hospitalization and death after she is vaccinated? What is grandma's risk of cold/flu? I'm guessing a covid vaccinated grandma is less susceptible to serious covid reactions than she is to cold/flu. So why the continued shaming? Because the media and certain politicians and celebrities are making you feel that way and you aren't using independent thought and real data (as evidenced by your claim that covid has a 2% death rate) to back up your feelings.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 7:39 pm

As mentioned above individual countries will likely impose vaccination requriements or proof of negative test before people are allowed in.

If you have a large number of staff unvaccinated you either cannot roster any of them to those countries or they have to have tests before travel every time - would the people who say Delta are wrong be happy to charge the staff members of these tests?
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
alfa164
Posts: 3951
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
But your claim was that it was 100 times less - not "2x-3x" the number of positive tests. Did you actually find that number somewhere - or just make it up?
That's not my job. You are the one making false claims.

I literally laid out the math for you using figures from the CDC's website. My claims are most certainly not false. What is false is your 2% fatality rate figure you threw out. Maybe re-read my post, slowly, and try to follow along. The one unknown is the denominator: how many people actually have had the virus vs how many positive tests there have been. And the estimates for that are 2x-10x (10x being the estimated number back before there was a ton of testing and antibody testing). Today with as much testing as there has been, 2-3x is a more probable number, making the denominator 70-100mil actual cases since there are ~33 million confirmed cases at this point. So, go re-read...I did the math for you.


I read what you wrote; maybe you should read it slowly and try to follow along:

JoseSalazar wrote:
Wait, so everyone who doesn’t want to get a vaccine for a virus that has a 99.98 survivability rate (depending on age/health/etc), and that doesn’t have much long term efficacy data (ie when does the covid protection wear off), and many of whom already have immunity from said virus from prior exposure, are anti-vaxxers? No. Everyone I know who doesn’t want to get this vaccine has all their other normal vaccines. I’d hardly call people who don’t want one particular vaccine anti-vaxxers. Do you see what the media and politicians are doing here, dividing and shaming people? Here you are advocating for people to lose their job because they don’t want to get a shot? If people are concerned about getting covid, those people should get the vaccine. But whether or not someone else gets the vaccine is none of anyone’s business, as is the case for all other medical data. Call me old school, but I value privacy.


Where is that magical math? How can you extrapolate that "99.98 survivability (sic) rate" from even the number you claim (without any sources or verification, of course)? Even if you have evidence your numbers are correct, that is a fatality rate of about 1% (600,000 deaths - although that number appears to be closer to 900,00, based on recent studies; out of 70 million infections) - 50 times the percentage you claimed - and that is using the numbers you provide, which seem to have been grabbed out of thin air. Using the verified numbers (598, 540 deaths and a verified 33+ million infections), the fatality rate is just under 2% - 100 times your claim.

I am calling bull(manure).


JoseSalazar wrote:
So why the continued shaming? Because the media and certain politicians and celebrities are making you feel that way and you aren't using independent thought and real data (as evidenced by your claim that covid has a 2% death rate) to back up your feelings.


You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...

... but I doubt it.



https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/06/994287048/new-study-estimates-more-than-900-000-people-have-died-of-covid-19-in-u-s

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105235/coronavirus-2019ncov-cases-recoveries-deaths-most-affected-countries-worldwide/
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
jordanh
Posts: 337
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 9:36 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...

... but I doubt it.


You can't win an argument with someone who has already made up his mind, and only gets confused with the facts. Those types will have to spend a few weeks under an oxygen tent before they get the message. I just hope he doesn't actually work for an airline I might be flying on.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 10:34 pm

alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 10:49 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.


Oh. The exceptionalism argument again. Funny, that also seems to be ‘feelings-based’. Life choices and basic freedoms are basically the same throughout the G12. I’d say the ‘good thing about America’ is her natural splendor, but that’s me.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4878
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 10:51 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.



You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 10:55 pm

OA412 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.



You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.


What statistics am I manipulating? What would you say is the infection fatality rate for someone age 18-29, or 30-39?
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:01 pm

OA412 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.



You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.

Put another way, what do you think the survivability (or even hospitalization) rate is for those age 0-17, 18-29, 30-39, and 40-49?
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:04 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:

What statistics am I manipulating? What would you say is the infection fatality rate for someone age 18-29, or 30-39?
There you go, manipulating things by using limited age groups. Most people aren't in those age groups. Also, even if you survive it when you're that age, what about people of more susceptible age groups that you interact with on a regular basis, such as your parents or grandparents?
 
slider
Posts: 7735
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:08 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.


Perfectly stated and I concur.
 
M564038
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:10 pm

It is not acceptable to solve this in such a way that people in certain age groups, with certain conditions and people that for health reasons can not have the vaccine needs to live in permanent isolation and/or fright.

This is solved by herd immunity.

For this to work, everyone that can, needs to take their shot.

There might even be several rounds of vaccines and boosters before this is over.

You also have no grasp of the word Tolerance.

JoseSalazar wrote:
OA412 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.



You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.

Put another way, what do you think the survivability (or even hospitalization) rate is for those age 0-17, 18-29, 30-39, and 40-49?
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:

What statistics am I manipulating? What would you say is the infection fatality rate for someone age 18-29, or 30-39?
There you go, manipulating things by using limited age groups. Most people aren't in those age groups. Also, even if you survive it when you're that age, what about people of more susceptible age groups that you interact with on a regular basis, such as your parents or grandparents?

They can get the vaccine!! That is the point!!!
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:14 pm

slider wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

You are definitely using independent thought - and, apparently, your own "independent" numbers (and no "real data" at all). Maybe you could provide us with some actual, legitimate sources and facts...



I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.


Perfectly stated and I concur.


Not 'perfectly stated' - he's using a multiplier based on an assumption with a huuuuge margin of error. Then at the end, claims the 'the statistics don't work out well for your argument'. Well, that's not even close to how statistics works. The whole point of statistical analysis is to reduce the margin of error, not make it bigger. Yes, COVID cases may have been significantly undercounted, but we don't know by how much. Even controlling for age groups, there is not a known established range, because there are several criteria for such a guesstimate. Without that data, his whole setup is just wild guesses, but its being stated as if conclusive. That's nonsense.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Sat May 15, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
luckyone
Posts: 3959
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:16 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
OA412 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.



You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.

Put another way, what do you think the survivability (or even hospitalization) rate is for those age 0-17, 18-29, 30-39, and 40-49?

Clearly nobody in the United States is older than 49.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


I'll make this even more simple for you.

1) How many confirmed covid cases have there been in the US? ~33 million

2) How many actual covid cases are there that existed but weren't counted in the confirmed case count stat? about 3x that, most likely https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021020 ... dercounted So that puts it around ~100milion

3) How many people age 0-17 have died who had covid? 287

4) How many people 18-29 have died who had covid? 2,163

5) How many people 30-39 have died who had covid? 6,299

6) In each of those age groups, how many more people actually had covid than were tested and confirmed? Extrapolate total cases by the 3x multiplier above for a good idea

7) What percentage of those total cases are in the age 30-39 group? About 16-17% https://www.aarp.org/health/conditions- ... dults.html

8) Let's assume that 17% is accurate, and 17% of the total estimated cases in the US (~100milion) are age 30-39. That's 17,000,000 total cases for those age 30-39. With 6,299 deaths. 6,299/17,000,000 = 0.00037, or 0.037% infection fatality rate for those age 30-39. Even less for those younger than 30.

Here are some other references for you:
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... m-covid-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... /index.htm

Now, since I once again did all the legwork for you, tell me this. What is the percentage chance someone who has been fully vaccinated will be hospitalized or killed from covid? Low enough that the CDC now says no need for masks.

Take that a step further. If an unvaccinated airline employee is *asymptomatic* (remember, a symptomatic employee cannot legally be at work), what are the chances they 1) even have covid and 2) are shedding virus that will cause a fully vaccinated person to get covid? Very very small.

And let's take that even further. In a plane with 150 people in it, there will likely be a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as there is no way vaccination status will be a condition of flying domestically for customers. So, what are the chances an asymptomatic crew member is a vector, when there is a whole plane full of mixed vaxxed/unvaxxed customers? The chance of a crewmember being the issue you're worried about (especially a pilot locked up front), is infinitesimally small.

Sorry, the statistics don't really work out well for your argument, which is 100% feelings based.

If you want to get protected...great. I think all high covid risk people should, which is definitely everyone over the age of 50, maybe those over the age of 40 (though the data really isn't that bad for 40-49 year olds either...about 3x worse than for 30-39 year olds). The good thing about America is choice and freedom. You do you. I'll do me. The difference between you and me? One of us is tolerant. One of us isn't.


Perfectly stated and I concur.


Not 'perfectly stated' - he's using a multiplier based on an assumption with a huuuuge margin of error. Then at the end, claims the 'the statistics don't work out well for your argument'. Well, that's not even close to how statistics works. The whole point of statistical analysis is to reduce the margin of error, not make it bigger. Yes, COVID cases may have been significantly undercounted, but we don't know by how much. Even controlling for age groups, there is not a known established range, because there are several criteria for such a guesstimate. Without that data, his whole setup is just wild guesses, but its being stated as if conclusive. That's nonsense.

Take my multiplier out, and assume that EVERY SINGLE covid case that has existed was tested and confirmed. Then you get 6,299 deaths for 5,600,000 cases for 30-39 year age group (again, even less for younger). That puts it at 0.001, or 0.1% CASE fatality rate. So with ALL the confirmed stats, with no modeling for unreported cases, it’s still 99.9% survivable for 30-39. How difficult is this?!?
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:26 pm

luckyone wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
OA412 wrote:


You’re manipulating stats and data to come to a predetermined conclusion. That’s now how statistics work. You don’t get to exclude the inconvenient facts and only include those that support your argument. This is not a virus that’s 99.98% survivable, saying so is just misinformation.

Put another way, what do you think the survivability (or even hospitalization) rate is for those age 0-17, 18-29, 30-39, and 40-49?

Clearly nobody in the United States is older than 49.

And they should get the vaccine. As should anyone younger than that who wants to.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:31 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:

Perfectly stated and I concur.


Not 'perfectly stated' - he's using a multiplier based on an assumption with a huuuuge margin of error. Then at the end, claims the 'the statistics don't work out well for your argument'. Well, that's not even close to how statistics works. The whole point of statistical analysis is to reduce the margin of error, not make it bigger. Yes, COVID cases may have been significantly undercounted, but we don't know by how much. Even controlling for age groups, there is not a known established range, because there are several criteria for such a guesstimate. Without that data, his whole setup is just wild guesses, but its being stated as if conclusive. That's nonsense.

Take my multiplier out, and assume that EVERY SINGLE covid case that has existed was tested and confirmed. Then you get 6,299 deaths for 5,600,000 cases for 30-39 year age group (again, even less for younger). That puts it at 0.001, or 0.1% CASE fatality rate. So with ALL the confirmed stats, with no modeling for unreported cases, it’s still 99.9% survivable for 30-39. How difficult is this?!?


Okay, great, what does that have to do with individuals in that age group doing their part to help society achieve herd immunity? The threshold for that is 72-75% vaccination rate. The rest of us want to put this shit virus to bed - that’s the point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:33 pm

Anyone in an industry severely affected by this disease needs to get vaccinated, produce doctor’s orders against it, or be terminated. Airlines, hotels, cruise lines, etc.

This is about protecting the economic foundation of these businesses and industries. Play along or go elsewhere—simple as that.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:34 pm

M564038 wrote:
You also have no grasp of the word Tolerance.


I tolerate people’s opinion and choice regarding what they want to put in their bodies and what medical decisions they want to make for themselves. I advocate for everybody to make their own decisions and am tolerant of whatever they want to choose. All these people I’m arguing with are advocating against anyone having the choice and shaming anyone whose choice isn’t the same as theirs. So yeah, tell me again about the definition of tolerance?
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22205
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:43 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:

Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice?


My work requires annual influenza immunization. They require proof of vaccination with measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B, and varicella or evidence of antibody titers thereof. They require annual TB testing. This is not unusual nor is it invasive.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
airtechy
Topic Author
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sat May 15, 2021 11:51 pm

Jose .. you seem to be hung up on death rates .. for sure a concern but not the only immediate health risk. In some cases the long term effects may cause you to wish you were dead! However, by far the worse public problem is the transmission rate which the vaccines will greatly if not totally reduce. Transmission allows the virus to mutate and will eventually mutate past the protections of the existing vaccines. Transmission from person to person is not age dependent although it would seem younger people spread the disease more probably because they socialize more. Vaccinated people will be safe until spread amongst the vaccine deniers allows the virus to mutate past existing vaccine protections. Some of the mutants will probably be more deadly and more resistant to vaccines. What a great thought. :roll:

Is it so hard to understand why people risk being ostracized by others for not taking a safe vaccine to short circuit this whole transmission process? I've never seen such convoluted though processes (usually involving data used incorrectly) that are required to return a "no vaccine for me" answer.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 12:08 am

DocLightning wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:

Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice?


My work requires annual influenza immunization. They require proof of vaccination with measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B, and varicella or evidence of antibody titers thereof. They require annual TB testing. This is not unusual nor is it invasive.

Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway. Additionally, I was fully vaccinated before I went in to that job, and generally support most vaccinations, so it was not an issue. But those vaccines your work requires also aren’t brand new, weren’t rushed in development, aren’t being used under an EUA, with no long term safety profiles or efficacy—which is not the case with the covid vaccines.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 12:17 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:

Lol you are comparing a required level of sobriety at work to a medical choice?


My work requires annual influenza immunization. They require proof of vaccination with measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B, and varicella or evidence of antibody titers thereof. They require annual TB testing. This is not unusual nor is it invasive.

Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway. Additionally, I was fully vaccinated before I went in to that job, and generally support most vaccinations, so it was not an issue. But those vaccines your work requires also aren’t brand new, weren’t rushed in development, aren’t being used under an EUA, with no long term safety profiles or efficacy—which is not the case with the covid vaccines.


Why do you use this loaded phrase - 'rushed in development'? A simple Google search will tell you mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer/BioNTech have been in development for over 15 years. It seems instead of justifying fears or inaction, it might be better to just 'do some research'.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 12:38 am

Aaron747 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

My work requires annual influenza immunization. They require proof of vaccination with measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B, and varicella or evidence of antibody titers thereof. They require annual TB testing. This is not unusual nor is it invasive.

Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway. Additionally, I was fully vaccinated before I went in to that job, and generally support most vaccinations, so it was not an issue. But those vaccines your work requires also aren’t brand new, weren’t rushed in development, aren’t being used under an EUA, with no long term safety profiles or efficacy—which is not the case with the covid vaccines.


Why do you use this loaded phrase - 'rushed in development'? A simple Google search will tell you mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer/BioNTech have been in development for over 15 years. It seems instead of justifying fears or inaction, it might be better to just 'do some research'.

Well, maybe because it was the fastest vaccine to ever be developed?https://connect.uclahealth.org/2020/12/10/the-fastest-vaccine-in-history/
And maybe because it’s still only authorized under an EUA? Never mind the whole operation warp speed name thing. Say, do we have any long term health data from any of these vaccines? It is unlikely there are any issues, but I sure don’t see any long term data available for them. So, yeah, “loaded” phrase? Sure, if that’s what you want to call it.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 12:52 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway. Additionally, I was fully vaccinated before I went in to that job, and generally support most vaccinations, so it was not an issue. But those vaccines your work requires also aren’t brand new, weren’t rushed in development, aren’t being used under an EUA, with no long term safety profiles or efficacy—which is not the case with the covid vaccines.


Why do you use this loaded phrase - 'rushed in development'? A simple Google search will tell you mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer/BioNTech have been in development for over 15 years. It seems instead of justifying fears or inaction, it might be better to just 'do some research'.

Well, maybe because it was the fastest vaccine to ever be developed?https://connect.uclahealth.org/2020/12/10/the-fastest-vaccine-in-history/
And maybe because it’s still only authorized under an EUA? Never mind the whole operation warp speed name thing. Say, do we have any long term health data from any of these vaccines? It is unlikely there are any issues, but I sure don’t see any long term data available for them. So, yeah, “loaded” phrase? Sure, if that’s what you want to call it.


That's what I'm calling it, since it's based off a lack of understanding of the background research that directly made it possible. This is not 'new' technology.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
afcjets
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 1:42 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
It seems anytime we get a vaccination thread that involves the US, fireworks start to happen and the thread goes off-topic very quickly. Perhaps it would be for the best if the thread gets locked lest this devolves into yet another pro-vax vs. vaccine hesitant posters fight.


Oh yes, that would be completely off topic :roll:
 
afcjets
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 1:44 am

B777LRF wrote:

I do wonder what the correlation is between people saying "my body, my choice, my business" and their stance on abortion ...


Some of us don't consider an embryo a body part.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22205
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 1:54 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway.


As if working for Delta is a fundamental right?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
afcjets
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:02 am

Virtual737 wrote:
My personal choice would be to remove health benefits and at the first sign of any COVID type symptoms to be put on leave without pay. The US is always shouting about the rights of the individual, but not so much about that individual owning the overall impact of exercising their rights.


Would you also remove health benefits when someone who eats unhealthily gets diabetes or heart disease, or for whoever has sex without a condom outside of a monogamous relationship and gets HIV or some other STD?
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:05 am

I honestly don't understand the hesitancy in taking vaccinations.

A look at the data will show that cases in America & the UK, both in the top 10 when it comes to cases, have dropped precipitously since vaccination. The cases per million numbers for the US & UK are at its lowest since the pandemic began, which demonstrates that the vaccines work.

So why in the name of God almighty are there still people declining taking the vaccines?

afcjets wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
My personal choice would be to remove health benefits and at the first sign of any COVID type symptoms to be put on leave without pay. The US is always shouting about the rights of the individual, but not so much about that individual owning the overall impact of exercising their rights.


Would you also remove health benefits when someone who eats unhealthily gets diabetes or heart disease, or for whoever has sex without a condom outside of a monogamous relationship and gets HIV or some other STD?


Diabetes & heart disease does not infect others. HIV and STDs are only infectious to others via sexual intercourse. Whereas Covid-19 can spread just by simple proximity with a carrier.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:09 am

DocLightning wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway.


As if working for Delta is a fundamental right?

Nobody said it was. You’re trying to conflate the term “fundamental right” with sensical policy. Pray tell, if all high risk people (age 50 and over, and those with co-morbidities associated with higher covid risk) got the vaccine, and all those under 50 who wanted it got it, what would our hospitalization and death rate be from covid? Also, if I’m asymptomatic, either because I don’t have covid, or because I’m just asymptomatic and have it, how likely is a fully vaccinated person to get covid from me? And if I was previously infected with covid, had mild/no symptoms, and have antibodies for it, how likely am I to get reinfected with a bad infection and shed virus and infect others (most of whom are vaccinated?) If the vaccine is as effective as they say, and since the CDC now says vaccinated people can take their masks off indoors, even in the midst of this ongoing pandemic, is that not admission from the CDC that the risk for those who are vaccinated is extremely low?

Can’t have it both ways doc. If the vaccine is effective and the risk to the already vaccinated is very very low, then it DOES NOT MATTER what others choose to do. Therefore, if someone is vaccinated, there should be zero concern about whether their movie theater cleaner, their flight attendant, their pilot, their bus driver, their waiter, their grocery bagger, or their Uber driver is vaccinated. It’s none of their business. Neither is it the business of their employer, or any other country.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3799
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:19 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
If the vaccine is as effective as they say, and since the CDC now says vaccinated people can take their masks off indoors, even in the midst of this ongoing pandemic, is that not admission from the CDC that the risk for those who are vaccinated is extremely low?


IMO it's pretty obvious the CDC made a complete 180 because they finally realized part of the reason for the surplus is a lot of people thought it wasn't worth taking if nothing was going to change.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:30 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
And if I was previously infected with covid, had mild/no symptoms, and have antibodies for it, how likely am I to get reinfected with a bad infection and shed virus and infect others (most of whom are vaccinated?) If the vaccine is as effective as they say, and since the CDC now says vaccinated people can take their masks off indoors, even in the midst of this ongoing pandemic, is that not admission from the CDC that the risk for those who are vaccinated is extremely low?


It's about building HERD IMMUNITY, so that people who CAN'T TAKE THE VACCINE or are immunosuppressed can live a normal life as well.

Stop being selfish.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14969
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:38 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
Whether it is considered invasive or not is a matter of opinion. My last job required those as well, as well as anthrax, smallpox, and routine HIV testing. But in that job you generally give up a lot of choices and freedoms in those matters anyway.


As if working for Delta is a fundamental right?

Nobody said it was. You’re trying to conflate the term “fundamental right” with sensical policy. Pray tell, if all high risk people (age 50 and over, and those with co-morbidities associated with higher covid risk) got the vaccine, and all those under 50 who wanted it got it, what would our hospitalization and death rate be from covid? Also, if I’m asymptomatic, either because I don’t have covid, or because I’m just asymptomatic and have it, how likely is a fully vaccinated person to get covid from me? And if I was previously infected with covid, had mild/no symptoms, and have antibodies for it, how likely am I to get reinfected with a bad infection and shed virus and infect others (most of whom are vaccinated?) If the vaccine is as effective as they say, and since the CDC now says vaccinated people can take their masks off indoors, even in the midst of this ongoing pandemic, is that not admission from the CDC that the risk for those who are vaccinated is extremely low?

Can’t have it both ways doc. If the vaccine is effective and the risk to the already vaccinated is very very low, then it DOES NOT MATTER what others choose to do. Therefore, if someone is vaccinated, there should be zero concern about whether their movie theater cleaner, their flight attendant, their pilot, their bus driver, their waiter, their grocery bagger, or their Uber driver is vaccinated. It’s none of their business. Neither is it the business of their employer, or any other country.


Let's reduce this to GWB language so that you can understand: you're either with us, or against us. We (those employed in the category 'services') want to be done with this virus, and herd immunity via vaccination is the way. If you refuse, that's up to you, but the ostracization is justified because you're standing in the way of getting things back to normal ASAP. This 'it's none of their business' attitude is poppycock - if customers have concerns about others, that's something service businesses have to take into account for their normal operations to function well. That's reason enough for a policy. If a company mandates that vaccination be required to serve that purpose, they are within their rights. You are also within your rights to seek self-employment if you don't like having to follow a company's rules.

And try entering Taiwan, Australia, Israel, South Korea, Singapore and a soon-to-be growing list of places with the attitude 'it's no country's business' as to my vaccination status. If they decide it is, then it is.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
airtechy
Topic Author
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to require new employees be vaccinated..

Sun May 16, 2021 2:48 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
And if I was previously infected with covid, had mild/no symptoms, and have antibodies for it, how likely am I to get reinfected with a bad infection and shed virus and infect others (most of whom are vaccinated?) If the vaccine is as effective as they say, and since the CDC now says vaccinated people can take their masks off indoors, even in the midst of this ongoing pandemic, is that not admission from the CDC that the risk for those who are vaccinated is extremely low?


It's about building HERD IMMUNITY, so that people who CAN'T TAKE THE VACCINE and are immunosuppressed can live a normal life as well.

Stop being selfish.


I take note that in all this discussion he has never addressed the issue of stopping transmission with the vaccines in order to to achieve HERD IMMUNITY so that we .. you, me, the public .. can move on with our lives. You are trying to argue a point that people who are vaccinated will concede without debate .. that we are extremely unlikely to get the virus. Our concern is that the thousands of "unwilling to be vaccinated people" .. like you .. are going to allow the the virus to mutate by mutual transmission. At that point we WILL be more likely to get the "mutated" virus all because of selfish "me" people. :roll:

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: afcjets, bananaboy, CRJ200flyer, Francoflier, iAvgeek737 and 33 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos