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extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 8:50 am

There is no gun show loophole. But carry on with the talking points. Bring up San Jose, where "according to his wife, he had mental health issues." California has some doozies of red flag laws or GVRO's, yet she doesn't bother to speak up? She had an opportunity to put a stop to the process, but chose not to. So lets condemn law-abiding gun owners.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 9:17 am

extender wrote:
There is no gun show loophole. But carry on with the talking points. Bring up San Jose, where "according to his wife, he had mental health issues." California has some doozies of red flag laws or GVRO's, yet she doesn't bother to speak up? She had an opportunity to put a stop to the process, but chose not to. So lets condemn law-abiding gun owners.


No idea why folks feel it is necessary to just make things up. The SJC shooter lived alone at least a decade, and neighbors said he was lonely, strange, and almost never had visitors. How was an ex-wife who hadn't lived with him in 15 years responsible to report his present day suitability for purchasing firearms and explosives? This dude made $114K annually in a blue collar job, and *was* a law-abiding gun owner - until he wasn't.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/ ... -san-jose/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 455620002/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Virtual737
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 9:20 am

extender wrote:
So lets condemn law-abiding gun owners.


How many of this year's 15 mass shooters weren't law abiding gun owners until they went berzerk or didn't just take the weapons from one who left their guns and ammunition out and about? To say it is blaming the law abiding gun owners is kind of missing the point.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:44 am

Discuss the topic, not other users.
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johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 1:27 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Gun crimes are not limited by income or address.


Not true, 55% of all gun murders are perpetrated by 5% of the population. Murders are restricted to a very few zip codes. In the year of Floyd, there were 4,475 more murders, any guess on the perps? That’s greater than all the lynchings in US history.


Eight murdered in San Jose, California this morning. His skin color isn't the one you think it is. And, according to his wife, he had mental health issues. And, yet, he was able to get guns. So, lets make it easier for people like this to get even more guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Like you said yourself, it's a mental health problem. If he had gotten diagnosed, he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 1:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
The funny thing is, the anti-gunners want to talk about "common sense" regulations to do something, every time there is a mass shooting. And their solution is always some sort of Assault Weapons ban. However, if they want to have a serious discussion about "common sense" regulations, the place to start is handguns. Something like 96% of firearm deaths are from handguns.

Permitless carry is hardly new in many states. The sky is falling types here don't get that, but then again, they probably think that the major cities are all that matters in this country.


You mean common sense measures like closing the gun show loophole and making sure EVERY gun owner application is processed instead of sitting in a pile somewhere until it is rubber stamped? We can't talk about those because that limits 2A rights somehow. So, what are we supposed to do? Let the party of life tell us that mass shootings are rare and they don't matter in the long run because Second Amendment. That's the whole rationale behind Republican gun "control".
Like I keep telling you, do just a little bit of research before posting. California doesn't have a "gunshow loophole". All sales, even private ones, must go through a dealer, who does a background check. Also, this isn't a Dem vs Rep thing. I know plenty of ardent gun owners who are Democrats. They just aren't one issue voters.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 1:32 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Not true, 55% of all gun murders are perpetrated by 5% of the population. Murders are restricted to a very few zip codes. In the year of Floyd, there were 4,475 more murders, any guess on the perps? That’s greater than all the lynchings in US history.


Eight murdered in San Jose, California this morning. His skin color isn't the one you think it is. And, according to his wife, he had mental health issues. And, yet, he was able to get guns. So, lets make it easier for people like this to get even more guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Like you said yourself, it's a mental health problem. If he had gotten diagnosed, he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.


How would he 'get diagnosed' if he was divorced, lived alone for the last 15 years, and thought he was fine?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 1:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
There is no gun show loophole. But carry on with the talking points. Bring up San Jose, where "according to his wife, he had mental health issues." California has some doozies of red flag laws or GVRO's, yet she doesn't bother to speak up? She had an opportunity to put a stop to the process, but chose not to. So lets condemn law-abiding gun owners.


No idea why folks feel it is necessary to just make things up. The SJC shooter lived alone at least a decade, and neighbors said he was lonely, strange, and almost never had visitors. How was an ex-wife who hadn't lived with him in 15 years responsible to report his present day suitability for purchasing firearms and explosives? This dude made $114K annually in a blue collar job, and *was* a law-abiding gun owner - until he wasn't.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/ ... -san-jose/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 455620002/
To semi-justify extender's reply. The post he was replying to stated that it was a "wife", not "ex-wife". Maybe he didn't do his own checking.
 
CometII
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 2:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Not true, 55% of all gun murders are perpetrated by 5% of the population. Murders are restricted to a very few zip codes. In the year of Floyd, there were 4,475 more murders, any guess on the perps? That’s greater than all the lynchings in US history.


Eight murdered in San Jose, California this morning. His skin color isn't the one you think it is. And, according to his wife, he had mental health issues. And, yet, he was able to get guns. So, lets make it easier for people like this to get even more guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Like you said yourself, it's a mental health problem. If he had gotten diagnosed, he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.


And which side of the ideological spectrum and its respective political party has had half a century to put forth a credible, comprehensive plan to make healthcare truly affordable and as universal as possible (and therefore the ability for people to seek mental health services without the need to simultaneously seek bankruptcy services), without resorting to a public system, and has instead chosen to never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity? The people who are indignant about our mental health crisis are the same ones who have done absolutely nothing to mitigate it.

A country where military weaponry is available on demand, but where healthcare and mental health is the most inaccessible. Winning.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 2:29 pm

CometII wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Eight murdered in San Jose, California this morning. His skin color isn't the one you think it is. And, according to his wife, he had mental health issues. And, yet, he was able to get guns. So, lets make it easier for people like this to get even more guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Like you said yourself, it's a mental health problem. If he had gotten diagnosed, he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.


And which side of the ideological spectrum and its respective political party has had half a century to put forth a credible, comprehensive plan to make healthcare truly affordable and as universal as possible (and therefore the ability for people to seek mental health services without the need to simultaneously seek bankruptcy services), without resorting to a public system, and has instead chosen to never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity? The people who are indignant about our mental health crisis are the same ones who have done absolutely nothing to mitigate it.

A country where military weaponry is available on demand, but where healthcare and mental health is the most inaccessible. Winning.


Nailed it, again. The difference between us and other western countries - because our cultures are not *that* different - is we don't provide these types of support for people as a basic service. Every one of the 'usual' countries in this discussion has their share of mental health problems, DV, drug abuse, etc. The difference is people can usually easily access assistance for those things, and at low cost. Here in the US, we just let these problems fester, and it creates a large component of what's going on today. The US enjoys a high QOL generally, but stress is also very high. Without a support network for that, you get what we've got.
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PHLspecial
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 3:01 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
The funny thing is, the anti-gunners want to talk about "common sense" regulations to do something, every time there is a mass shooting. And their solution is always some sort of Assault Weapons ban. However, if they want to have a serious discussion about "common sense" regulations, the place to start is handguns. Something like 96% of firearm deaths are from handguns.

Permitless carry is hardly new in many states. The sky is falling types here don't get that, but then again, they probably think that the major cities are all that matters in this country.

Shoot lets get some open carry going. Got to show off my RPG or kitted M4. Also lets not mandate training because guns are easy to use and you should automatic know when to pull out a gun because common sense. I hope you got my sense of sarcasm .
 
JJJ
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 3:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Not true, 55% of all gun murders are perpetrated by 5% of the population. Murders are restricted to a very few zip codes. In the year of Floyd, there were 4,475 more murders, any guess on the perps? That’s greater than all the lynchings in US history.


Eight murdered in San Jose, California this morning. His skin color isn't the one you think it is. And, according to his wife, he had mental health issues. And, yet, he was able to get guns. So, lets make it easier for people like this to get even more guns. What could possibly go wrong?

Like you said yourself, it's a mental health problem. If he had gotten diagnosed, he wouldn't have been able to buy a gun.


Most countries have mental health checks as an integral part of the process of getting a gun.
 
extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 3:47 pm

And police officers have to pass a psychological panel to be able to do their duties. And there are some out there that I wouldn't trust with a straw and spitballs. But let us not get off the rails; if the law allows something, and people exercise their rights, within the confines of the law, leave it at that.

When the assault weapon ban went through, the mandated changes were cosmetic, not functional. I know a few shooters that can make an M-1 Garand sing and almost sound like a BAR. An M-1 Garand doesn't have any of the evil things an assault rifle has (Save a bayonet lug, and is still an effective rifle). So if it isn't one thing, such as cosmetics, it is now mental health. Always something to throw into the works. And that is why the pushback against gun control and stupid legislation is getting stronger.

I still laugh when I read about gun show loopholes. If Texans want to open carry, so be it. Several states have it, but since it is Texas, the usual lot come out and pitch fits about it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 4:11 pm

extender wrote:
And police officers have to pass a psychological panel to be able to do their duties. And there are some out there that I wouldn't trust with a straw and spitballs. But let us not get off the rails; if the law allows something, and people exercise their rights, within the confines of the law, leave it at that.

When the assault weapon ban went through, the mandated changes were cosmetic, not functional. I know a few shooters that can make an M-1 Garand sing and almost sound like a BAR. An M-1 Garand doesn't have any of the evil things an assault rifle has (Save a bayonet lug, and is still an effective rifle). So if it isn't one thing, such as cosmetics, it is now mental health. Always something to throw into the works. And that is why the pushback against gun control and stupid legislation is getting stronger.

I still laugh when I read about gun show loopholes. If Texans want to open carry, so be it. Several states have it, but since it is Texas, the usual lot come out and pitch fits about it.


It is not ‘now’ about mental health - it has *always* been an important parameter to consider in quelling violent crime. Even a rudimentary understanding of our species’ psychology should tell you that. I know it’s convenient to politicize, but that doesn’t change the reality of criminology.
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extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 4:29 pm

A whole lot of nothing, but spin. Not a single fact.
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 5:04 pm

extender wrote:
When the assault weapon ban went through, the mandated changes were cosmetic, not functional. I know a few shooters that can make an M-1 Garand sing and almost sound like a BAR. An M-1 Garand doesn't have any of the evil things an assault rifle has (Save a bayonet lug, and is still an effective rifle).
What's funny is that I own a Garand that I've never shot. I've owned and shot them in the past but now that I've had both shoulders replaces, they can't handle the recoil. I bought it because I'd just been to Omaha Beach and the real Springfield Armory. If my shoulders were whole, I'd sell my AR and be perfectly happy with only the Garand. Like I used to tell my fellow employees at the gunshop, "there are very few problems in the real world that can't be solved with 8 well placed rounds of 30/06". They didn't believe me, but I could outshoot all of them. Anti's don't know how relatively weak an AR is.
 
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seb146
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 6:18 pm

extender wrote:
A whole lot of nothing, but spin. Not a single fact.


So you don't think mental illness has anything at all to do with mass shootings? Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Virginia Tech all can be traced to mental illness. Then, at the same time, we have "I'll teach them a lesson" types like Charleston and El Paso where closing the gun show loophole and actually enforcing laws already on the books would have helped. But, again, we can't do that because everyone must carry guns no matter what.

Enforcing existing laws and strengthening back ground checks and mental health is somehow going to get me called a gun grabber.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 9:25 pm

extender wrote:
A whole lot of nothing, but spin. Not a single fact.


Never took psych 101 huh? It literally goes back to Freud. Cohen, Athens, the genetics of aggression - all expansion of the general idea that environmental strain deteriorates the brain’s moral center.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:10 pm

Not normal families then, were they? Abusivevfathers. If it wasn’t their choice, it wasn’t their fault and we should have social workers into occupied lands instead of troops. Poor misunderstood Adolf and Josef, they know not what they did. /sarcasm
 
THS214
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not normal families then, were they? Abusivevfathers. If it wasn’t their choice, it wasn’t their fault and we should have social workers into occupied lands instead of troops. Poor misunderstood Adolf and Josef, they know not what they did. /sarcasm


Never said that it was OK and it was THEIR fault. THEY made the orders. But psychology they both thought they were right. You and I have our thinking. Sure we think it's the only thing that is right. We both know what we do. But if your mindset is different? Then what is the right thing to do?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:34 pm

It’s definitely not a race problem.

Kenya, Mozambique, Malawi, Rwanda, Angola, Cameroon, Ghana, Liberia, Niger, Sierra Leone and other African nations have a lower Murder rate than the total US murder rate (black and non black).

So a whole host of majority black nations are more peaceful than the US mixed nation.

It’s not a problem with race, it’s a problem with America.
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:34 pm

My father was an alcoholic who physically abused my mother, at least until my brothers and I became older teenagers. None of us turned into abusers or alcoholics. For many, it's just an excuse to do as they will.
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:36 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
It’s definitely not a race problem.

Kenya, Mozambique, Malawi, Rwanda, Angola, Cameroon, Ghana, Liberia, Niger, Sierra Leone and other African nations have a lower Murder rate than the total US murder rate (black and non black).

So a whole host of majority black nations are more peaceful than the US mixed nation.

It’s not a problem with race, it’s a problem with America.
The vast majority of it is a drug/gang problem.
 
THS214
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:44 pm

johns624 wrote:
My father was an alcoholic who physically abused my mother, at least until my brothers and I became older teenagers. None of us turned into abusers or alcoholics. For many, it's just an excuse to do as they will.


Not an excuse for many. Happy for you.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
The vast majority of it is a drug/gang problem.



They have drugs and gangs in places outside the US too, in fact almost everywhere outside the US. But the US is alone in developed nations with such a high homicide rate, and even higher than a lot of developing countries. There are factors unique to the US which enable this beyond mere “drugs and gangs”.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu May 27, 2021 11:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
It’s definitely not a race problem.

Kenya, Mozambique, Malawi, Rwanda, Angola, Cameroon, Ghana, Liberia, Niger, Sierra Leone and other African nations have a lower Murder rate than the total US murder rate (black and non black).

So a whole host of majority black nations are more peaceful than the US mixed nation.

It’s not a problem with race, it’s a problem with America.
The vast majority of it is a drug/gang problem.


Again, it’s risky to oversimplify. Our brethren in the G12 all have their share of drug and gang activity, even Japan. The difference is the resources available to people before they end up seeing crime as the most logical income stream for themselves. Having been exposed to many cultures, I would say our collective inability to ask for help (especially among American men) and ‘you’re on your own’ mentality are big cultural contributors to why our violent crime rates are higher than countries with similar QOL.

The availability of guns makes that worse but is not the causal factor by any stretch.
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extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 8:30 am

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
A whole lot of nothing, but spin. Not a single fact.


So you don't think mental illness has anything at all to do with mass shootings? Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Virginia Tech all can be traced to mental illness. Then, at the same time, we have "I'll teach them a lesson" types like Charleston and El Paso where closing the gun show loophole and actually enforcing laws already on the books would have helped. But, again, we can't do that because everyone must carry guns no matter what.


No, I am still waiting for the gun show loophole question to be answered.
 
JJJ
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 8:51 am

extender wrote:
And police officers have to pass a psychological panel to be able to do their duties. And there are some out there that I wouldn't trust with a straw and spitballs.


Again with the fallacy of perfection.

Would you rather be happier which much more stringent test that left false negatives rather than false positives?

Just because something don't always work right doesn't mean you should ditch them, just like you don't do away with laws because people break them.

The point is make them better.
 
extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 9:37 am

JJJ wrote:
The point is make them better.


Agreed. But nothing is foolproof.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 10:21 am

extender wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The point is make them better.


Agreed. But nothing is foolproof.


Obviously. The SJC shooter was questioned by CBP when he came back from vacation in 2016 because he had terrorist and other violent paraphenalia on his person, but nobody notified local authorities and that was the end of that. Even if he hadn't done anything illegal, it should at least be a red flag to go on a watch list. People don't usually travel with notebooks filled with hate.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigatio ... t/2556724/
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par13del
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 12:11 pm

So who and what organization is defining psychological problems, does it only apply to the civilian population, has anyone investigated or even checked to see if police officers involved in "shootings" have / had psychological problems?
If a kid is bullied at school in the playground and picks up a rock, hits a fellow student who dies, do we now investigate for psychological problems?
I am certain that we can have medical professionals who can diagnose all of us with psychological problems IF we commit a crime, that is my primary concern, it is such a broad catch all.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 12:15 pm

par13del wrote:
So who and what organization is defining psychological problems, does it only apply to the civilian population, has anyone investigated or even checked to see if police officers involved in "shootings" have / had psychological problems?
If a kid is bullied at school in the playground and picks up a rock, hits a fellow student who dies, do we now investigate for psychological problems?
I am certain that we can have medical professionals who can diagnose all of us with psychological problems IF we commit a crime, that is my primary concern, it is such a broad catch all.


The DSM-V is the gold standard for diagnosis and definitions, and it is organized by the APA. These are not mere psychologists as psychiatrists also have to have an MD in addition to training in psychology.

https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm
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johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 12:16 pm

par13del wrote:
So who and what organization is defining psychological problems, does it only apply to the civilian population, has anyone investigated or even checked to see if police officers involved in "shootings" have / had psychological problems?
If a kid is bullied at school in the playground and picks up a rock, hits a fellow student who dies, do we now investigate for psychological problems?
I am certain that we can have medical professionals who can diagnose all of us with psychological problems IF we commit a crime, that is my primary concern, it is such a broad catch all.
That is the concern of many. Another, as even some posters on here have opined, that just liking guns points to psychological problems in itself. "You like guns so you can't own any".
 
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par13del
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 12:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So who and what organization is defining psychological problems, does it only apply to the civilian population, has anyone investigated or even checked to see if police officers involved in "shootings" have / had psychological problems?
If a kid is bullied at school in the playground and picks up a rock, hits a fellow student who dies, do we now investigate for psychological problems?
I am certain that we can have medical professionals who can diagnose all of us with psychological problems IF we commit a crime, that is my primary concern, it is such a broad catch all.
That is the concern of many. Another, as even some posters on here have opined, that just liking guns points to psychological problems in itself. "You like guns so you can't own any".

Interesting to view the increase in knife crimes in the UK including deaths, they are on a crime wave even during the pandemic and very little is reported about mental health issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -and-wales
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 3:01 pm

par13del wrote:
johns624 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So who and what organization is defining psychological problems, does it only apply to the civilian population, has anyone investigated or even checked to see if police officers involved in "shootings" have / had psychological problems?
If a kid is bullied at school in the playground and picks up a rock, hits a fellow student who dies, do we now investigate for psychological problems?
I am certain that we can have medical professionals who can diagnose all of us with psychological problems IF we commit a crime, that is my primary concern, it is such a broad catch all.
That is the concern of many. Another, as even some posters on here have opined, that just liking guns points to psychological problems in itself. "You like guns so you can't own any".

Interesting to view the increase in knife crimes in the UK including deaths, they are on a crime wave even during the pandemic and very little is reported about mental health issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -and-wales


That's because it's by and large not a mental health issue.

Massive cuts to Police force over the last 10 years, huge closure of Police stations, cuts to local kids clubs / youth centres etc, huge cuts to council budgets so closure of community sports centres / facilities. Add in the huge amount of povety in the UK (one of the worst in the western world for kids) and you get a new generation with nothing to do, nothing to lose pushed into a life of crime, drugs, gangs etc.

It should come as no suprise to people if you do that, you will see a big increase in violent crime.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 4:02 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
par13del wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That is the concern of many. Another, as even some posters on here have opined, that just liking guns points to psychological problems in itself. "You like guns so you can't own any".

Interesting to view the increase in knife crimes in the UK including deaths, they are on a crime wave even during the pandemic and very little is reported about mental health issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -and-wales


That's because it's by and large not a mental health issue.

Massive cuts to Police force over the last 10 years, huge closure of Police stations, cuts to local kids clubs / youth centres etc, huge cuts to council budgets so closure of community sports centres / facilities. Add in the huge amount of povety in the UK (one of the worst in the western world for kids) and you get a new generation with nothing to do, nothing to lose pushed into a life of crime, drugs, gangs etc.

It should come as no suprise to people if you do that, you will see a big increase in violent crime.


The last sentence is correct but the first is essentially inaccurate based on current knowledge. Mental health problems are absolutely more prevalent in low income areas.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaps ... cle/211213

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5192088/

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/sites/d ... Health.pdf

Mental health symptoms like dissociation and nihilistic attitudes are often linked to some of the behaviors by delinquent youth you describe.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23731
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 6:13 pm

extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
A whole lot of nothing, but spin. Not a single fact.


So you don't think mental illness has anything at all to do with mass shootings? Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Virginia Tech all can be traced to mental illness. Then, at the same time, we have "I'll teach them a lesson" types like Charleston and El Paso where closing the gun show loophole and actually enforcing laws already on the books would have helped. But, again, we can't do that because everyone must carry guns no matter what.


No, I am still waiting for the gun show loophole question to be answered.


The gun show loophole is misnamed.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016 ... show-loop/

So, let's change that to "private sale loophole" instead. Still, unlicensed dealers (no onw knows how many) can make gun sales with zero back ground checks. Private sales do not need back ground checks either. Like on the streets of Chicago. I thought I would just head off that argument right now.

So, since the private sale loophole is a thing, no one knows how many guns are sold between private parties. No one knows who the buyer is. A private collector? A guy that just wants to get his jollies from pulling a trigger? A jealous lover? Let's just let them buy whatever they want for whatever reason and not enforce any laws at all. Right?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri May 28, 2021 7:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So you don't think mental illness has anything at all to do with mass shootings? Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Virginia Tech all can be traced to mental illness. Then, at the same time, we have "I'll teach them a lesson" types like Charleston and El Paso where closing the gun show loophole and actually enforcing laws already on the books would have helped. But, again, we can't do that because everyone must carry guns no matter what.


No, I am still waiting for the gun show loophole question to be answered.


The gun show loophole is misnamed.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016 ... show-loop/

So, let's change that to "private sale loophole" instead. Still, unlicensed dealers (no onw knows how many) can make gun sales with zero back ground checks. Private sales do not need back ground checks either. Like on the streets of Chicago. I thought I would just head off that argument right now.

So, since the private sale loophole is a thing, no one knows how many guns are sold between private parties. No one knows who the buyer is. A private collector? A guy that just wants to get his jollies from pulling a trigger? A jealous lover? Let's just let them buy whatever they want for whatever reason and not enforce any laws at all. Right?

1. There is no such thing as a "unlicensed dealer". To be a dealer and buy guns from manufacturers and distributors, you have to be licensed.
2. There are 14 states that require background checks on all sales. Looking at the list, I don't see those states as any more or less dangerous than others.
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws ... tems...%20
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23731
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat May 29, 2021 6:02 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:

No, I am still waiting for the gun show loophole question to be answered.


The gun show loophole is misnamed.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016 ... show-loop/

So, let's change that to "private sale loophole" instead. Still, unlicensed dealers (no onw knows how many) can make gun sales with zero back ground checks. Private sales do not need back ground checks either. Like on the streets of Chicago. I thought I would just head off that argument right now.

So, since the private sale loophole is a thing, no one knows how many guns are sold between private parties. No one knows who the buyer is. A private collector? A guy that just wants to get his jollies from pulling a trigger? A jealous lover? Let's just let them buy whatever they want for whatever reason and not enforce any laws at all. Right?

1. There is no such thing as a "unlicensed dealer". To be a dealer and buy guns from manufacturers and distributors, you have to be licensed.
2. There are 14 states that require background checks on all sales. Looking at the list, I don't see those states as any more or less dangerous than others.
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws ... tems...%20


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/us/unlic ... index.html

There is a poorly written part of the law that allows unlicensed gun dealers. And people do not need to go through a background check if it is a private sale. So, we need to close that loophole AND enforce background checks for ALL firearms sales.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7795
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat May 29, 2021 6:45 pm

By definition, to be a dealer one must have an FFL. “Unlicensed” dealers have a name—owner selling privately. How do you propose to enforce background checks on private transfers? I own a gun, sell it to my neighbor, privately; how does law enforcement make a background check happen. As a private citizen, I have no access to NICS, neither does the buyer. Now, I have a lot lose from that kind sale (house, retirement account, wife, etc) so I have a strong incentive to comply. Norm suppose, I’m a criminal with nothing at risk, what incentive to comply? Loads of felons just add to their rap sheet with firearms violations.pm they don’t care.
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat May 29, 2021 10:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

The gun show loophole is misnamed.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016 ... show-loop/

So, let's change that to "private sale loophole" instead. Still, unlicensed dealers (no onw knows how many) can make gun sales with zero back ground checks. Private sales do not need back ground checks either. Like on the streets of Chicago. I thought I would just head off that argument right now.

So, since the private sale loophole is a thing, no one knows how many guns are sold between private parties. No one knows who the buyer is. A private collector? A guy that just wants to get his jollies from pulling a trigger? A jealous lover? Let's just let them buy whatever they want for whatever reason and not enforce any laws at all. Right?

1. There is no such thing as a "unlicensed dealer". To be a dealer and buy guns from manufacturers and distributors, you have to be licensed.
2. There are 14 states that require background checks on all sales. Looking at the list, I don't see those states as any more or less dangerous than others.
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws ... tems...%20


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/us/unlic ... index.html

There is a poorly written part of the law that allows unlicensed gun dealers. And people do not need to go through a background check if it is a private sale. So, we need to close that loophole AND enforce background checks for ALL firearms sales.
Once again, there is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". Just because a poorly informed writer says it's true, doesn't make it so. A private individual can sell his own guns if he has no further use for them. They are all used guns. They cannot do it as a business. They cannot do it to earn a living. That is breaking the law. It is not a poorly written law. It's like pornography--hard to describe but easy to see. In those 14 states, all transactions must go through a dealer. In some others, like Michigan, all handgun transactions must either go through a background check or the buyer must have a current CPL-which requires an extensive background check.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat May 29, 2021 10:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So you don't think mental illness has anything at all to do with mass shootings? Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Virginia Tech all can be traced to mental illness. Then, at the same time, we have "I'll teach them a lesson" types like Charleston and El Paso where closing the gun show loophole and actually enforcing laws already on the books would have helped. But, again, we can't do that because everyone must carry guns no matter what.


No, I am still waiting for the gun show loophole question to be answered.


The gun show loophole is misnamed.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016 ... show-loop/

So, let's change that to "private sale loophole" instead. Still, unlicensed dealers (no onw knows how many) can make gun sales with zero back ground checks. Private sales do not need back ground checks either. Like on the streets of Chicago. I thought I would just head off that argument right now.

So, since the private sale loophole is a thing, no one knows how many guns are sold between private parties. No one knows who the buyer is. A private collector? A guy that just wants to get his jollies from pulling a trigger? A jealous lover? Let's just let them buy whatever they want for whatever reason and not enforce any laws at all. Right?


Even with extensive gun control measures, it does not really impact crime. It may actually increase crime locally by emboldening criminals, who understand that law abiding potential innocent victims are virtually guaranteed to be unarmed.

But IIRC, gun control does hold promise reducing suicides among non-criminals. Which is the majority of gun deaths in the USA IIRC.

Personally, I don't own guns because I do not want to deal with the personal risks and responsibilities. But it doesn't lead me to believe that nobody needs guns. Our entire civilization was built on the use of lawful force to end the dominance of warlords and gangs. We can always go right back to warlordism if we want. I understand it is rather unpleasant.
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sun May 30, 2021 3:46 pm

Then there's the old "we need more laws because the criminals are ignoring the ones we already have".
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23731
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sun May 30, 2021 4:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
1. There is no such thing as a "unlicensed dealer". To be a dealer and buy guns from manufacturers and distributors, you have to be licensed.
2. There are 14 states that require background checks on all sales. Looking at the list, I don't see those states as any more or less dangerous than others.
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws ... tems...%20


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/us/unlic ... index.html

There is a poorly written part of the law that allows unlicensed gun dealers. And people do not need to go through a background check if it is a private sale. So, we need to close that loophole AND enforce background checks for ALL firearms sales.
Once again, there is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". Just because a poorly informed writer says it's true, doesn't make it so. A private individual can sell his own guns if he has no further use for them. They are all used guns. They cannot do it as a business. They cannot do it to earn a living. That is breaking the law. It is not a poorly written law. It's like pornography--hard to describe but easy to see. In those 14 states, all transactions must go through a dealer. In some others, like Michigan, all handgun transactions must either go through a background check or the buyer must have a current CPL-which requires an extensive background check.


And the FBI is not doing it's duty and completing background checks on public sales

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/12/03/fbi ... un-checks/

Although, again, private sales do not require background checks but, yeah, let's just not enforce the laws already on the books because 2A or NRA or something...
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sun May 30, 2021 4:30 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/us/unlic ... index.html

There is a poorly written part of the law that allows unlicensed gun dealers. And people do not need to go through a background check if it is a private sale. So, we need to close that loophole AND enforce background checks for ALL firearms sales.
Once again, there is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". Just because a poorly informed writer says it's true, doesn't make it so. A private individual can sell his own guns if he has no further use for them. They are all used guns. They cannot do it as a business. They cannot do it to earn a living. That is breaking the law. It is not a poorly written law. It's like pornography--hard to describe but easy to see. In those 14 states, all transactions must go through a dealer. In some others, like Michigan, all handgun transactions must either go through a background check or the buyer must have a current CPL-which requires an extensive background check.


And the FBI is not doing it's duty and completing background checks on public sales

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/12/03/fbi ... un-checks/

Although, again, private sales do not require background checks but, yeah, let's just not enforce the laws already on the books because 2A or NRA or something...
Maybe the FBI should hire more people? Once again, private sales DO require background checks in many states. There's a good reason they are only allowed a limited time to perform background checks.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1437
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Mon May 31, 2021 2:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I like it. I mean the criminals don't have to have a license right?


I mean criminals are in jail too. So could we put civilian carrying unlicensed handguns in the jail too?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23731
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Mon May 31, 2021 2:46 am

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Once again, there is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". Just because a poorly informed writer says it's true, doesn't make it so. A private individual can sell his own guns if he has no further use for them. They are all used guns. They cannot do it as a business. They cannot do it to earn a living. That is breaking the law. It is not a poorly written law. It's like pornography--hard to describe but easy to see. In those 14 states, all transactions must go through a dealer. In some others, like Michigan, all handgun transactions must either go through a background check or the buyer must have a current CPL-which requires an extensive background check.


And the FBI is not doing it's duty and completing background checks on public sales

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/12/03/fbi ... un-checks/

Although, again, private sales do not require background checks but, yeah, let's just not enforce the laws already on the books because 2A or NRA or something...
Maybe the FBI should hire more people? Once again, private sales DO require background checks in many states. There's a good reason they are only allowed a limited time to perform background checks.


Righties do not want to hire more FBI because that would expand the government and take away 2A rights or something. Private sales are not part of background checks and that needs to change. Saying "but it is the law in a few states" does not stop mass shootings. Saying "FBI should have limited time to do background checks" will not stop mass shootings. So, again, enforce laws already on the books for all states AND let FBI do ALL background checks period.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Mon May 31, 2021 12:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And the FBI is not doing it's duty and completing background checks on public sales

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/12/03/fbi ... un-checks/

Although, again, private sales do not require background checks but, yeah, let's just not enforce the laws already on the books because 2A or NRA or something...
Maybe the FBI should hire more people? Once again, private sales DO require background checks in many states. There's a good reason they are only allowed a limited time to perform background checks.


Righties do not want to hire more FBI because that would expand the government and take away 2A rights or something. Private sales are not part of background checks and that needs to change. Saying "but it is the law in a few states" does not stop mass shootings. Saying "FBI should have limited time to do background checks" will not stop mass shootings. So, again, enforce laws already on the books for all states AND let FBI do ALL background checks period.
Stereotype much? You don't know what "righties" want. You're right about one thing--more laws won't stop most shootings because most shootings are done by criminals. By definition, they don't obey the law. As far as your "few states" that require them, they include 7 out of 11 with the largest populations and over 40% of the total US population. I know that you have a phobia about guns, but once again, I implore you to do some research before answering. You're looking more foolish every day. A reasoned argument is always more effective than an emotional outburst.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7795
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Mon May 31, 2021 3:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And the FBI is not doing it's duty and completing background checks on public sales

https://www.rollcall.com/2019/12/03/fbi ... un-checks/

Although, again, private sales do not require background checks but, yeah, let's just not enforce the laws already on the books because 2A or NRA or something...
Maybe the FBI should hire more people? Once again, private sales DO require background checks in many states. There's a good reason they are only allowed a limited time to perform background checks.


Righties do not want to hire more FBI because that would expand the government and take away 2A rights or something. Private sales are not part of background checks and that needs to change. Saying "but it is the law in a few states" does not stop mass shootings. Saying "FBI should have limited time to do background checks" will not stop mass shootings. So, again, enforce laws already on the books for all states AND let FBI do ALL background checks period.


Explain how you’d enforce background checks on criminals, please?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23731
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Mon May 31, 2021 3:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe the FBI should hire more people? Once again, private sales DO require background checks in many states. There's a good reason they are only allowed a limited time to perform background checks.


Righties do not want to hire more FBI because that would expand the government and take away 2A rights or something. Private sales are not part of background checks and that needs to change. Saying "but it is the law in a few states" does not stop mass shootings. Saying "FBI should have limited time to do background checks" will not stop mass shootings. So, again, enforce laws already on the books for all states AND let FBI do ALL background checks period.


Explain how you’d enforce background checks on criminals, please?


Since ALL sales would have to have background checks, even private sales, there you go. ALL sales would have to go through licensed dealers. "But criminals blahblahblah" so if people are still making private sales, they are criminals and will have their 2A rights taken from them.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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