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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:51 am

extender wrote:
People aren't machines, and the psyche is something else. There is no foolproof method of removing the undesirables.


Yet we heard you opine that responsibility is the sole panacea for top societal function. Very quaint.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:21 pm

As we have all read yours. Quaint indeed.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:26 pm

extender wrote:
People aren't machines, and the psyche is something else. There is no foolproof method of removing the undesirables.


Exactly, so you either put your head in the sand and do nothing or mitigate the risks / reduce the chances as much as you can.

I'm under no illusions that you can't just ban all guns in the US. There are too many, and it is tradition. What you can do is make healthcare access (in this case mental) far easier, to reduce the chances of people getting to the point of doing something stupid / to stop the people who have clear issues getting access to guns. You then need to ensure existing laws regarding background checks are fully implemented everywhere. Then you need better and longer Police training, and social programs to reduce gangs and those who carry illegally.

If you're not prepared to have any conversations about any of those things (which the Republicans and NRA will never do), the situation won't change and you'll see mass shootings again and again and again.

For me as a non American, the idea of any carry (open or otherwise) is just bizzare and I will never understand it in this day and age and you'll never change my mind. But I accept they are part of American culture. What I can't understand is why you are not prepared to do even the basics to help reduce preventable deaths. It's so selfish.
 
JJJ
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:38 pm

extender wrote:
People aren't machines, and the psyche is something else. There is no foolproof method of removing the undesirables.


Again with the fallacy of perfection. Any system that weeds out a certain % of undesirables is better than no system at all.

Otherwise why bother with laws at all if people break them all the time?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:11 pm

JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:
People aren't machines, and the psyche is something else. There is no foolproof method of removing the undesirables.


Again with the fallacy of perfection. Any system that weeds out a certain % of undesirables is better than no system at all.

Otherwise why bother with laws at all if people break them all the time?


Absolutely. "Reality is created by the mind - we can change reality by changing our mind" - Plato.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:02 pm

While 2020 had a large spike in murders, every year between 1990-1995 had a larger number of murders than last year. In 1990, we only had 248M people, while we had 331M in 2020. In 1995, only 14 states had "shall issue" laws, versus 42 now. That changes the per capita rate and the "more guns mean more murders" argument. If the spike continues, it's a concern. If it doesn't, it's an anomaly probably caused by the pandemic.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:
People aren't machines, and the psyche is something else. There is no foolproof method of removing the undesirables.


Again with the fallacy of perfection. Any system that weeds out a certain % of undesirables is better than no system at all.

Otherwise why bother with laws at all if people break them all the time?


Absolutely. "Reality is created by the mind - we can change reality by changing our mind" - Plato.



The issue is that a bunch of folks want to talk about personal responsibility and "undesirables" forgets the changing landscape of people and relationships.

I have seen happy marriages destroyed in about 1 week, and turn into massive cruel insult battles.
I have seen a political party that talks about personal responsibility, delve into fantastic lies about stolen elections with no proof.
I have seen family members torn apart by greed, malice and lies.

So no. we can't accept a "perfect society" , and we must safeguard all of ourselves from the fallacy that more guns = more protection. Guns are not tools of protection. They are tools of force and domination with an overt intent to harm and kill. You have enough folks that can't reasonably admit that their favorite golden idol lost an election, how can you trust them to regulate their emotions and intellect to properly handle a gun?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:00 pm

extender wrote:
As we have all read yours. Quaint indeed.


Still waiting for you to explain how 'responsibility' and 'respect for authority' stopped the VTA shooter from slaughtering his colleagues the other day. Most of his arsenal was legal, BTW.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05/27/ ... -gun-laws/

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/sam ... g-sheriff/
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
While 2020 had a large spike in murders, every year between 1990-1995 had a larger number of murders than last year. In 1990, we only had 248M people, while we had 331M in 2020. In 1995, only 14 states had "shall issue" laws, versus 42 now. That changes the per capita rate and the "more guns mean more murders" argument. If the spike continues, it's a concern. If it doesn't, it's an anomaly probably caused by the pandemic.


And don't forget that those who attempted to overthrow the government on 1/6 were carrying weapons, those who stormed state houses were carrying weapons, the rag tag group who took over the bird sanctuary in Oregon had weapons, those planning on another coup attempt already have weapons. But, yeah, let's make it easier for them to get even more weapons....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:25 pm

Actually, the original citizens’ attempt to overthrow the government were also armed on April 19th, 1775. Still celebrated as a holiday in my state, as is the Daniel Shay rebellion celebrated with highway names.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:00 pm

Murders have gone down in western countries in general so that's not really a good argument.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
While 2020 had a large spike in murders, every year between 1990-1995 had a larger number of murders than last year. In 1990, we only had 248M people, while we had 331M in 2020. In 1995, only 14 states had "shall issue" laws, versus 42 now. That changes the per capita rate and the "more guns mean more murders" argument. If the spike continues, it's a concern. If it doesn't, it's an anomaly probably caused by the pandemic.


And don't forget that those who attempted to overthrow the government on 1/6 were carrying weapons, those who stormed state houses were carrying weapons, the rag tag group who took over the bird sanctuary in Oregon had weapons, those planning on another coup attempt already have weapons. But, yeah, let's make it easier for them to get even more weapons....
The idiots in Portland, Seattle, etc., weren't generally armed (with guns) and also did a lot of damage and harm. So what's the difference?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:39 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
While 2020 had a large spike in murders, every year between 1990-1995 had a larger number of murders than last year. In 1990, we only had 248M people, while we had 331M in 2020. In 1995, only 14 states had "shall issue" laws, versus 42 now. That changes the per capita rate and the "more guns mean more murders" argument. If the spike continues, it's a concern. If it doesn't, it's an anomaly probably caused by the pandemic.


And don't forget that those who attempted to overthrow the government on 1/6 were carrying weapons, those who stormed state houses were carrying weapons, the rag tag group who took over the bird sanctuary in Oregon had weapons, those planning on another coup attempt already have weapons. But, yeah, let's make it easier for them to get even more weapons....
The idiots in Portland, Seattle, etc., weren't generally armed (with guns) and also did a lot of damage and harm. So what's the difference?


Protesting real injustices, vs trying to overthrow the government based on lack of intelligence to discern lies about the election.

Both sides did damage, and yet the ones that couldn't tell a lie from the truth managed to kill 5 people in DC. you really want those folks having unlicensed carry?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:43 pm

Unlicensed carry doesn't mean that convicted felons can carry. 3 of the 5 were fat rednecks that died from health issues. How many people in SEA had their homes/businesses vandalized or destroyed? That had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Both sides have plenty of troublemakers who need to spend time in prison. I'm sick of the whole "my side good, your side bad" argument.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
Unlicensed carry doesn't mean that convicted felons can carry. 3 of the 5 were fat rednecks that died from health issues. How many people in SEA had their homes/businesses vandalized or destroyed? That had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Both sides have plenty of troublemakers who need to spend time in prison. I'm sick of the whole "my side good, your side bad" argument.


Why can't convicted felons carry ? The new Texas law allows concealed or unconcealed and unlicensed. Who is going to know if they are a Felon? Are they going to hand out scarlet letters?

You blame people's weight for their deaths, when they were overwhelmed in a traumatic situation with pepper spray and mace?

It is funny how everyone else is to blame, and you want to be able to carry a gun to prove it.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Unlicensed carry doesn't mean that convicted felons can carry. 3 of the 5 were fat rednecks that died from health issues. How many people in SEA had their homes/businesses vandalized or destroyed? That had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Both sides have plenty of troublemakers who need to spend time in prison. I'm sick of the whole "my side good, your side bad" argument.


Why can't convicted felons carry ? The new Texas law allows concealed or unconcealed and unlicensed. Who is going to know if they are a Felon? Are they going to hand out scarlet letters?

You blame people's weight for their deaths, when they were overwhelmed in a traumatic situation with pepper spray and mace?

It is funny how everyone else is to blame, and you want to be able to carry a gun to prove it.
You said 5 people were "killed". They didn't get killed, they "died". If they are felons and carrying guns, they don't need this law, they're called "criminals". Criminals don't care about obeying laws. That's why they're called criminals. Are you really that obtuse?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:26 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Unlicensed carry doesn't mean that convicted felons can carry. 3 of the 5 were fat rednecks that died from health issues. How many people in SEA had their homes/businesses vandalized or destroyed? That had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Both sides have plenty of troublemakers who need to spend time in prison. I'm sick of the whole "my side good, your side bad" argument.


Why can't convicted felons carry ? The new Texas law allows concealed or unconcealed and unlicensed. Who is going to know if they are a Felon? Are they going to hand out scarlet letters?

You blame people's weight for their deaths, when they were overwhelmed in a traumatic situation with pepper spray and mace?

It is funny how everyone else is to blame, and you want to be able to carry a gun to prove it.
You said 5 people were "killed". They didn't get killed, they "died". If they are felons and carrying guns, they don't need this law, they're called "criminals". Criminals don't care about obeying laws. That's why they're called criminals. Are you really that obtuse?


That's not the point. Felons and criminals will carry, but what you are giving license too is that no one will be able to see a weapon and assume they are dangerous or not. The felons and the good guys can all pack. And with bad judgement , which is rampant across criminals, and good people alike, there are a higher chance for escalations that wind up in deaths.

More guns = more deaths, and the charts I have brought to bear highlight it. The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop

Those issues are gone, and now by allowing more guns, and allowing the legal carry (concealed and unconcealed) we are opening up to increased violence again.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:20 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Why can't convicted felons carry ? The new Texas law allows concealed or unconcealed and unlicensed. Who is going to know if they are a Felon? Are they going to hand out scarlet letters?

You blame people's weight for their deaths, when they were overwhelmed in a traumatic situation with pepper spray and mace?

It is funny how everyone else is to blame, and you want to be able to carry a gun to prove it.
You said 5 people were "killed". They didn't get killed, they "died". If they are felons and carrying guns, they don't need this law, they're called "criminals". Criminals don't care about obeying laws. That's why they're called criminals. Are you really that obtuse?


That's not the point. Felons and criminals will carry, but what you are giving license too is that no one will be able to see a weapon and assume they are dangerous or not. The felons and the good guys can all pack. And with bad judgement , which is rampant across criminals, and good people alike, there are a higher chance for escalations that wind up in deaths.

More guns = more deaths, and the charts I have brought to bear highlight it. The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop

Those issues are gone, and now by allowing more guns, and allowing the legal carry (concealed and unconcealed) we are opening up to increased violence again.
So law abiding citizens should be defenseless against armed criminals? How many crimes are stopped by police while they are happening?
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

Or maybe it's that people who go through the process to buy guns legally aren't the ones committing the crimes?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:52 pm

johns624 wrote:
Unlicensed carry doesn't mean that convicted felons can carry. 3 of the 5 were fat rednecks that died from health issues. How many people in SEA had their homes/businesses vandalized or destroyed? That had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Both sides have plenty of troublemakers who need to spend time in prison. I'm sick of the whole "my side good, your side bad" argument.


This always seem to bear repeating, but some of that property damage was done by people who also had nothing to do with protesting injustices. Every social protest invites opportunity for nihilist teens and anarchist black brigade types who love using these events as cover to break shit as that’s their thing. They have been mixing in with crowds at least as long as I started going to events in the late 90s.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:06 am

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

Or maybe it's that people who go through the process to buy guns legally aren't the ones committing the crimes?


The issue is that in an ever extending timeline, who is tracking the sales? What happens when people break down due to job losses , divorces, illness, bankruptcy?

The more guns there are in volatile escalations, the more danger and deaths there will be. Guns are a killing weapon, and the more situations they are allowed to be in, the more they will be used.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

Or maybe it's that people who go through the process to buy guns legally aren't the ones committing the crimes?


The issue is that in an ever extending timeline, who is tracking the sales? What happens when people break down due to job losses , divorces, illness, bankruptcy?

The more guns there are in volatile escalations, the more danger and deaths there will be. Guns are a killing weapon, and the more situations they are allowed to be in, the more they will be used.

"An armed society is a polite society." I've walked into restaurants (in other states) were I could identify a dozen armed people and I never felt safer. More guns de-escalate as the individual is no longer in control.

Lightsaber
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Or maybe it's that people who go through the process to buy guns legally aren't the ones committing the crimes?


The issue is that in an ever extending timeline, who is tracking the sales? What happens when people break down due to job losses , divorces, illness, bankruptcy?

The more guns there are in volatile escalations, the more danger and deaths there will be. Guns are a killing weapon, and the more situations they are allowed to be in, the more they will be used.

"An armed society is a polite society." I've walked into restaurants (in other states) were I could identify a dozen armed people and I never felt safer. More guns de-escalate as the individual is no longer in control.

Lightsaber


It depends on whether you are abusing them or they are abusing you. Guns are not a part of polite society. They are a part of controlled society.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
"An armed society is a polite society." I've walked into restaurants (in other states) were I could identify a dozen armed people and I never felt safer. More guns de-escalate as the individual is no longer in control.

Lightsaber


It depends on whether you are abusing them or they are abusing you. Guns are not a part of polite society. They are a part of controlled society.


Really going to say an armed society is a controlled society? Sure it isn't the other way around? As in the CONTROL in gun CONTROL?

By 01 JUL 21, 20 states will allow permit-less carry. So more states are coming online to having the citizenry armed and without permits.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:27 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
"An armed society is a polite society." I've walked into restaurants (in other states) were I could identify a dozen armed people and I never felt safer. More guns de-escalate as the individual is no longer in control.

Lightsaber


It depends on whether you are abusing them or they are abusing you. Guns are not a part of polite society. They are a part of controlled society.


Really going to say an armed society is a controlled society? Sure it isn't the other way around? As in the CONTROL in gun CONTROL?

By 01 JUL 21, 20 states will allow permit-less carry. So more states are coming online to having the citizenry armed and without permits.


Permit less carry means more people will be carrying more guns in volatile situations. Guns can be at home, and be a part of a well -regulated militia, but permit less, training less, license less guns is a recipe for disaster.,
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
extender
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:32 pm

Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:33 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
"An armed society is a polite society." I've walked into restaurants (in other states) were I could identify a dozen armed people and I never felt safer. More guns de-escalate as the individual is no longer in control.

Lightsaber


It depends on whether you are abusing them or they are abusing you. Guns are not a part of polite society. They are a part of controlled society.


Really going to say an armed society is a controlled society? Sure it isn't the other way around? As in the CONTROL in gun CONTROL?

By 01 JUL 21, 20 states will allow permit-less carry. So more states are coming online to having the citizenry armed and without permits.


Still waiting to see how your ‘teach em’ responsibility and respect for authority’ angle worked out for Mr. Cassidy in SJC last week.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:38 pm

extender wrote:
Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.


As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:41 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.


As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.


Sounds like an assemblage of the truly mature for the ages. :crazy:
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:43 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It depends on whether you are abusing them or they are abusing you. Guns are not a part of polite society. They are a part of controlled society.


Really going to say an armed society is a controlled society? Sure it isn't the other way around? As in the CONTROL in gun CONTROL?

By 01 JUL 21, 20 states will allow permit-less carry. So more states are coming online to having the citizenry armed and without permits.


Permit less carry means more people will be carrying more guns in volatile situations. Guns can be at home, and be a part of a well -regulated militia, but permit less, training less, license less guns is a recipe for disaster.,


The same prediction was made in the ‘90s when “shall issue “ became the norm—did not happen. Won’t happen this time, either, but don’t let facts sway you.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:

Really going to say an armed society is a controlled society? Sure it isn't the other way around? As in the CONTROL in gun CONTROL?

By 01 JUL 21, 20 states will allow permit-less carry. So more states are coming online to having the citizenry armed and without permits.


Permit less carry means more people will be carrying more guns in volatile situations. Guns can be at home, and be a part of a well -regulated militia, but permit less, training less, license less guns is a recipe for disaster.,


The same prediction was made in the ‘90s when “shall issue “ became the norm—did not happen. Won’t happen this time, either, but don’t let facts sway you.


it will happen this time. You missed
my post below on what lead to the lowering of incidents in the 1990's.
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Why can't convicted felons carry ? The new Texas law allows concealed or unconcealed and unlicensed. Who is going to know if they are a Felon? Are they going to hand out scarlet letters?

You blame people's weight for their deaths, when they were overwhelmed in a traumatic situation with pepper spray and mace?

It is funny how everyone else is to blame, and you want to be able to carry a gun to prove it.
You said 5 people were "killed". They didn't get killed, they "died". If they are felons and carrying guns, they don't need this law, they're called "criminals". Criminals don't care about obeying laws. That's why they're called criminals. Are you really that obtuse?


That's not the point. Felons and criminals will carry, but what you are giving license too is that no one will be able to see a weapon and assume they are dangerous or not. The felons and the good guys can all pack. And with bad judgement , which is rampant across criminals, and good people alike, there are a higher chance for escalations that wind up in deaths.

More guns = more deaths, and the charts I have brought to bear highlight it. The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop

Those issues are gone, and now by allowing more guns, and allowing the legal carry (concealed and unconcealed) we are opening up to increased violence again.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.


As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.
Can you tell us how you personally would "defuse" a situation where you're being robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered?
Here's a couple of places where complying didn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCaD0b81dxI
https://abc13.com/news/1-shot-during-po ... -/2243499/
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13515
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:17 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.


As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.
Can you tell us how you personally would "defuse" a situation where you're being robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered?
Here's a couple of places where complying didn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCaD0b81dxI
https://abc13.com/news/1-shot-during-po ... -/2243499/


Oh but wait? Aren't those incidents going down? Why would we make it worse by adding more guns to the list?

You will now have kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry, and then you will have people that will carry because others are carrying ,and then things will devolve down the line.

Remember why Texas had to pull handguns from cowboys back in the 1880's?

Remember Billy the kid?

https://www.caller.com/story/news/colum ... 987370001/
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
extender
Posts: 881
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
Volatile situations, like being robbed, assaulted, raped and your gun is at home? Thanks, No. I'll keep carrying.


As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGAqv212MDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qexHuisNrDQ&t=179s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wma18PGKKiA
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

As will many hundreds of thousands of delusional folks that can't diffuse a situation without their kill weapon by their side.
Can you tell us how you personally would "defuse" a situation where you're being robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered?
Here's a couple of places where complying didn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCaD0b81dxI
https://abc13.com/news/1-shot-during-po ... -/2243499/


Oh but wait? Aren't those incidents going down? Why would we make it worse by adding more guns to the list?

You will now have kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry, and then you will have people that will carry because others are carrying ,and then things will devolve down the line.

Remember why Texas had to pull handguns from cowboys back in the 1880's?

Remember Billy the kid?

https://www.caller.com/story/news/colum ... 987370001/

kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry
That statement makes absolutely no sense. For one thing "kids" can't buy or own guns.
You ignored my question. How are you personally going to defuse a situation when someone is robbing you, beating you to death, or raping your partner?
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:28 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Can you tell us how you personally would "defuse" a situation where you're being robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered?
Here's a couple of places where complying didn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCaD0b81dxI
https://abc13.com/news/1-shot-during-po ... -/2243499/


Oh but wait? Aren't those incidents going down? Why would we make it worse by adding more guns to the list?

You will now have kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry, and then you will have people that will carry because others are carrying ,and then things will devolve down the line.

Remember why Texas had to pull handguns from cowboys back in the 1880's?

Remember Billy the kid?

https://www.caller.com/story/news/colum ... 987370001/

kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry
That statement makes absolutely no sense. For one thing "kids" can't buy or own guns.
You ignored my question. How are you personally going to defuse a situation when someone is robbing you, beating you to death, or raping your partner?

If it has gotten to that point, how will I have had my gun out?
You fail to answer how more guns are the answer to a declining issue. Even the old west knew that more guns = more problems.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7760
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:23 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Permit less carry means more people will be carrying more guns in volatile situations. Guns can be at home, and be a part of a well -regulated militia, but permit less, training less, license less guns is a recipe for disaster.,


The same prediction was made in the ‘90s when “shall issue “ became the norm—did not happen. Won’t happen this time, either, but don’t let facts sway you.


it will happen this time. You missed
my post below on what lead to the lowering of incidents in the 1990's.
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You said 5 people were "killed". They didn't get killed, they "died". If they are felons and carrying guns, they don't need this law, they're called "criminals". Criminals don't care about obeying laws. That's why they're called criminals. Are you really that obtuse?


That's not the point. Felons and criminals will carry, but what you are giving license too is that no one will be able to see a weapon and assume they are dangerous or not. The felons and the good guys can all pack. And with bad judgement , which is rampant across criminals, and good people alike, there are a higher chance for escalations that wind up in deaths.

More guns = more deaths, and the charts I have brought to bear highlight it. The only thing that mitigated years of gun violence is some sort of amalgamation of the below issues. I would argue that legal abortion,and the rise of the internet had more to do with the declines we saw than any other factor.

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/13/8032231/crime-drop

Those issues are gone, and now by allowing more guns, and allowing the legal carry (concealed and unconcealed) we are opening up to increased violence again.


The Vox article is hardly dispositive of anything, most reasons were “still unclear” or “some effect”.
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:26 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Oh but wait? Aren't those incidents going down? Why would we make it worse by adding more guns to the list?

You will now have kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry, and then you will have people that will carry because others are carrying ,and then things will devolve down the line.

Remember why Texas had to pull handguns from cowboys back in the 1880's?

Remember Billy the kid?

https://www.caller.com/story/news/colum ... 987370001/

kids that go through addictions sell of guns to whoever because they don't need a license to carry
That statement makes absolutely no sense. For one thing "kids" can't buy or own guns.
You ignored my question. How are you personally going to defuse a situation when someone is robbing you, beating you to death, or raping your partner?

If it has gotten to that point, how will I have had my gun out?
You fail to answer how more guns are the answer to a declining issue. Even the old west knew that more guns = more problems.
You need to remember what you wrote earlier. Then, you were worried about how much more gun violence there is and now you're saying it was a declining issue. Make up your mind. Maybe it's a declining issue because more good people are carrying guns. You can't seem to see the difference between law abiding carrying and criminals carrying.
Once again, how are you going to diffuse the situation when a violent crime is being committed? You don't have an answer. You just have an uneducated phobia against all guns.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That statement makes absolutely no sense. For one thing "kids" can't buy or own guns.
You ignored my question. How are you personally going to defuse a situation when someone is robbing you, beating you to death, or raping your partner?

If it has gotten to that point, how will I have had my gun out?
You fail to answer how more guns are the answer to a declining issue. Even the old west knew that more guns = more problems.
You need to remember what you wrote earlier. Then, you were worried about how much more gun violence there is and now you're saying it was a declining issue. Make up your mind. Maybe it's a declining issue because more good people are carrying guns. You can't seem to see the difference between law abiding carrying and criminals carrying.
Once again, how are you going to diffuse the situation when a violent crime is being committed? You don't have an answer. You just have an uneducated phobia against all guns.


Gun violence is increasing over the last 4 years as more and more of the suicide pact GOP keep trying to create a more dangerous world.
If a violent crime is being committed it is because the environment is present for it to be committed. you try to avoid such environments. Limiting guns in public is a good way to keep violent weapons away from people with the capacity to commit violent crimes. I don't have an uneducated phobia against all guns. I am very aware of their use. I do have a phobia against people that think that more people with guns will work out better. it will not.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:40 pm

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fire ... gun-use-2/

1. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases). Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action. Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.


7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense

We analyzed data from a telephone survey of 5,800 California adolescents aged 12-17 years, which asked questions about gun threats against and self-defense gun use by these young people. We found that these young people were far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use a gun in self-defense, and most of the reported self-defense gun uses were hostile interactions between armed adolescents. Males, smokers, binge drinkers, those who threatened others and whose parents were less likely to know their whereabouts were more likely both to be threatened with a gun and to use a gun in self-defense.


4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal

We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys conducted under the auspices of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective.


More guns = more problems, and how many more problems will we get from Unlicensed guns?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosm ... irearm.htm

https://www.statista.com/statistics/215 ... -by-state/
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:23 pm

Once again, you keep getting confused about legal vs illegal gun use.
In your first point, that women never use guns to keep from getting sexually assaulted. How many of those women had carry licenses? Women, as a whole, are less likely to have one, but it is increasing. As far as "use", does that only mean they shot someone, or just that they brandished it and the rapist ran away?
Your second point is useless. Any "adolescent" carrying a gun is breaking the law. Once again, that's called being a "criminal". Remember my point about legal vs illegal?
Your third point is also nonsensical. What is illegal about what happened? Were these incidents that were prosecuted or just random ones? I'm not saying that a legal gun carrier has never committed a crime with it, but it's very, very rare.
Just for reference, what state do you live in? I'm in Michigan.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:32 pm

johns624 wrote:
Once again, you keep getting confused about legal vs illegal gun use.
In your first point, that women never use guns to keep from getting sexually assaulted. How many of those women had carry licenses? Women, as a whole, are less likely to have one, but it is increasing. As far as "use", does that only mean they shot someone, or just that they brandished it and the rapist ran away?
Your second point is useless. Any "adolescent" carrying a gun is breaking the law. Once again, that's called being a "criminal". Remember my point about legal vs illegal?
Your third point is also nonsensical. What is illegal about what happened? Were these incidents that were prosecuted or just random ones? I'm not saying that a legal gun carrier has never committed a crime with it, but it's very, very rare.
Just for reference, what state do you live in? I'm in Michigan.


1st point is that they never had the time even if they were carrying.
2nd point isn't about adolescents carrying a gun it is about what is happening in the house where the gun is.
Last point is that the Guns are used to finish arguments that people owning the guns legally couldn't diffuse on their own.


All the points in that document point out exactly that guns don't solve the problems most ammo hogs think they do, and they generally cause more pain and suffering for the general public,

Many murders legally owned the gun that they used especially in domestic disputes.


https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fire ... and-death/

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fire ... ellaneous/
5. More guns = more gun crime

Across U.S. states, higher levels of firearm ownership are associated with higher levels of firearm assault, firearm robbery, firearm homicide and overall homicide. The findings do not support the hypothesis that higher population firearm ownership rates reduce firearm-associated criminal perpetration. On the contrary, evidence shows that states with higher levels of firearm ownership have an increased risk for violent crimes perpetrated with a firearm.

This article provides evidence that contradicts the common claim among gun advocates that gun ownership helps reduce crime.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:05 pm

So where do you live? The state is enough.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13515
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
So where do you live? The state is enough.



I have told you before in other conversations. .NC.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So where do you live? The state is enough.



I have told you before in other conversations. .NC.

OK, thanks. NC has Open Carry. How many people do you see doing it?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So where do you live? The state is enough.



I have told you before in other conversations. .NC.

OK, thanks. NC has Open Carry. How many people do you see doing it?


Not a lot in the city, due to most private businesses not allowing it. But the issue in Texas is not the Carry, it is the no background check, training. Sure all the current folks that wouldn't qualify are already barred from having one, but over the next 5-10 years, there will be a host of questionable folks obtaining the guns. The incident rates will rise.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:47 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


I have told you before in other conversations. .NC.

OK, thanks. NC has Open Carry. How many people do you see doing it?


Not a lot in the city, due to most private businesses not allowing it. But the issue in Texas is not the Carry, it is the no background check, training. Sure all the current folks that wouldn't qualify are already barred from having one, but over the next 5-10 years, there will be a host of questionable folks obtaining the guns. The incident rates will rise.
What does allowing open carry have to do with people getting guns? It doesn't change the requirements for buying guns.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14422
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Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:19 pm

I think we better keep dismissing & ignoring comparative gun related dead statistics of Western countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ntries.png

Every country has it strange habits & believes.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7760
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If it has gotten to that point, how will I have had my gun out?
You fail to answer how more guns are the answer to a declining issue. Even the old west knew that more guns = more problems.
You need to remember what you wrote earlier. Then, you were worried about how much more gun violence there is and now you're saying it was a declining issue. Make up your mind. Maybe it's a declining issue because more good people are carrying guns. You can't seem to see the difference between law abiding carrying and criminals carrying.
Once again, how are you going to diffuse the situation when a violent crime is being committed? You don't have an answer. You just have an uneducated phobia against all guns.


Gun violence is increasing over the last 4 years as more and more of the suicide pact GOP keep trying to create a more dangerous world.
If a violent crime is being committed it is because the environment is present for it to be committed. you try to avoid such environments. Limiting guns in public is a good way to keep violent weapons away from people with the capacity to commit violent crimes. I don't have an uneducated phobia against all guns. I am very aware of their use. I do have a phobia against people that think that more people with guns will work out better. it will not.



Gun violence and murder are up a lot over the last year and it’s not be committed by the people you’re worried about.
 
johns624
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Texas to allow unlicensed carrying of handguns

Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You need to remember what you wrote earlier. Then, you were worried about how much more gun violence there is and now you're saying it was a declining issue. Make up your mind. Maybe it's a declining issue because more good people are carrying guns. You can't seem to see the difference between law abiding carrying and criminals carrying.
Once again, how are you going to diffuse the situation when a violent crime is being committed? You don't have an answer. You just have an uneducated phobia against all guns.


Gun violence is increasing over the last 4 years as more and more of the suicide pact GOP keep trying to create a more dangerous world.
If a violent crime is being committed it is because the environment is present for it to be committed. you try to avoid such environments. Limiting guns in public is a good way to keep violent weapons away from people with the capacity to commit violent crimes. I don't have an uneducated phobia against all guns. I am very aware of their use. I do have a phobia against people that think that more people with guns will work out better. it will not.



Gun violence and murder are up a lot over the last year and it’s not be committed by the people you’re worried about.
If you read his past posts, he thinks that people will act irrationally if they are around guns. He seems to think that guns can control a person. I've had multiple AR15's M1a, M1 Garands and Glocks over the past 25+ years and none of them have ever made me do anything illegal. I just don't own them, I use them, too. My club team was in the top third of civilian and military teams in the Infantry Trophy Match at Camp Perry 20+ years ago. Yet, even though I could hit a man size silhouette at 500yds at least 15 times in 50 seconds without a scope, I've never had the urge to do a drive-by, be a sniper, rob or shoot anyone, etc. I grew up as a minority in the city of Detroit, too, with an alcoholic father. I had all kinds of excuses...but I've never used excuses, just worked hard for what I wanted and needed.

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