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cjg225
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:25 pm

Slightly modifying a line from one of my favorite movies... "Never have an opinion. The moment you do you get screwed."
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slider
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:10 pm

Some of the points Anonymous makes aren't wrong. It begs the question of just how far a company can interfere in an employee's private life and personal opinions, and the voicing of said opinions.

Whether right or left, if companies can continue to run roughshod over someone's opinion and terminate them (and yes, I'm quite familiar with 'at will' employment) for no reason, everyone should be chilled. What you may be unpopular now may come to bite you in the ass in time.
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:21 pm

slider wrote:
Some of the points Anonymous makes aren't wrong. It begs the question of just how far a company can interfere in an employee's private life and personal opinions, and the voicing of said opinions.

Whether right or left, if companies can continue to run roughshod over someone's opinion and terminate them (and yes, I'm quite familiar with 'at will' employment) for no reason, everyone should be chilled. What you may be unpopular now may come to bite you in the ass in time.



Remember, corporations are people and they are free to do what they want. Want to make the rules? Start your own company.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:36 pm

slider wrote:
Some of the points Anonymous makes aren't wrong. It begs the question of just how far a company can interfere in an employee's private life and personal opinions, and the voicing of said opinions.

Whether right or left, if companies can continue to run roughshod over someone's opinion and terminate them (and yes, I'm quite familiar with 'at will' employment) for no reason, everyone should be chilled. What you may be unpopular now may come to bite you in the ass in time.


Or...wise up, be aware of how the game is run, and don't put things out there in a way it's obviously you. So many people get caught up largely because they exercise incredibly poor judgment.
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skyservice_330
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:43 pm

Wow...good for the writer. It takes an incredible amount of conviction, courage and commitment to your values and argument to ... write an anonymous letter filled with typos and then leak it on the net.

/sarcasm off
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:34 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
n9801f wrote:

The rub is that Delta claims it encourages diversity and citizenship. But punishing people for political participation would strongly suggest otherwise.


No, no rub whatsoever. Holding people accountable for intolerant and anti-diversity viewpoints is what is required to support diversity. Tolerance is not, and never has, been meant to protect racists, regressives, agitators, etc.. This is not a complex concept, though for some, there is a feigned difficulty in seeing that.


Ding, ding, ding! This is the part that a lot of people don't or won't understand. Tolerance isn't about protecting the intolerant. I hate (insert minority group here) is not a valid viewpoint and isn't an "opinion" to be respected or tolerated.
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n9801f
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:36 pm

@Aaron747, DarkSnowyNight, OA412

Yes, I noticed the age of the article, too. Though the source is superb and it cites many examples of case law.

I fully agree that divisive and hate speech are bad and would also likely lose a case.

But parts of the conversation here seemed to suggest than any off-duty political speech at all could be a fire-able offense, and the article contains examples of people doing much worse things off duty and winning cases to keep their jobs.

The crux for me is the employee letter suggests there may be corporate hostility toward all other points of view. That kind of environment could harm employees and impairs business decision making.

Delta lost over $12 billion dollars in year end 1Q21. More than any other US airline. I'd hope they'd just focus on fixing that rather than possibly trying to meddle in employees' private lives.

Eventually a CEO of a money-losing company loses some credibility. They no longer have the record of business success enabling their platform for other agendas.
 
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seb146
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:55 pm

n9801f wrote:
@Aaron747, DarkSnowyNight, OA412

Yes, I noticed the age of the article, too. Though the source is superb and it cites many examples of case law.

I fully agree that divisive and hate speech are bad and would also likely lose a case.

But parts of the conversation here seemed to suggest than any off-duty political speech at all could be a fire-able offense, and the article contains examples of people doing much worse things off duty and winning cases to keep their jobs.

The crux for me is the employee letter suggests there may be corporate hostility toward all other points of view. That kind of environment could harm employees and impairs business decision making.

Delta lost over $12 billion dollars in year end 1Q21. More than any other US airline. I'd hope they'd just focus on fixing that rather than possibly trying to meddle in employees' private lives.

Eventually a CEO of a money-losing company loses some credibility. They no longer have the record of business success enabling their platform for other agendas.


Financial losses 1Q21 has zero to do with political opinions of board members. There are many political opinions that are not being called out, either. Political speech is protected up to a point.

Besides, what is wrong with a company casting the widest net possible and being as inclusive as possible while, at the same time, calling out the big lie and those who support racism?
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:15 pm

The real solution here is to end at-will-employment and make it so that there has to be just cause to terminate an employment agreement.

Ideally end political donations by companies (or at least Publicly Listed Companies) too...
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n9801f
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:26 pm

@seb146

The point about financial losses is that this is the first responsibility of management and it urgently requires attention.

As for the big net, couldn't agree more.

But take it one step further. A company doesn't sincerely cast a big net if it is against racism (good!) yet is intolerant of any opinions besides its CEO's (bad).

I think you're entitled to a racism-free environment. Period. Without having to sacrifice your opinions on unrelated matters.
 
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OA412
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:48 pm

n9801f wrote:
The point about financial losses is that this is the first responsibility of management and it urgently requires attention.


You keep making the claim that DL isn't focused on financial losses because they're going after employees for their political beliefs. Companies can, and always do, focus on multiple things at once. Of course they are focusing on the financial side of the business, that goes without saying. That said, DL is a private company. They can control employee speech all they want if they feel such speech is being tied back to the employee's relationship with DL and thus giving the DL (or any company for that matter) a bad name. The letter is very poorly written, with numerous spelling and grammatical errors. It's hard to take something like that at face value. We all know people who are horrible employees, but will immediately point the finger at everyone else when backed into a corner. Moreover, if the DL isn't tolerating other points of view, that's their prerogative as a private company. This isn't just DL, it's how the system is set up.

n9801f wrote:
Yes, I noticed the age of the article, too. Though the source is superb and it cites many examples of case law.

I'm not an expert on employment law, but case law from 30 years ago is often irrelevant because it may have been overturned in the intervening period either by a higher court or by statutory changes.
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cjg225
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:43 pm

OA412 wrote:
I'm not an expert on employment law, but case law from 30 years ago is often irrelevant because it may have been overturned in the intervening period either by a higher court or by statutory changes.

A wee bit overbroad of a statement about precedent.
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n9801f
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:43 pm

OA412 wrote:
You keep making the claim that DL isn't focused on financial losses because they're going after employees for their political beliefs.

Well, no, that's not quite what I mean. I'll clarify.

Delta is incorporated as a Delaware Corporation to make money. It is not incorporated as a Political Action Committee or a social welfare organization. Its primary mission and obligation is to make money for shareholders.

The losses show that it is failing to meet its objective of profitability. By an enormous margin. In fact, its YE 1Q21 losses were almost double similar-sized United's and 1/3 more than American's.

The ship is taking on lots of water.

Measured by profitability, management's ideas are not working.

In that situation, it's a hard sell to shareholders to make the further leap to say, "And management doesn't want to hear any opposing ideas."

New problems require new solutions. Same old same old is not working here.

And as a shareholder, the losses are so scorching that I don't want them to focus on anything but their core business of making money until the situation improves. Extra-curricular activities need to be temporarily canceled to make more time to study, etc.

After all, companies like Borders, Blockbuster, and Braniff aren't very effective political advocates today. Even if their intentions were good, they just don't have a pedestal to voice them anymore.
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:06 pm

n9801f wrote:
OA412 wrote:
You keep making the claim that DL isn't focused on financial losses because they're going after employees for their political beliefs.

Well, no, that's not quite what I mean. I'll clarify.

Delta is incorporated as a Delaware Corporation to make money. It is not incorporated as a Political Action Committee or a social welfare organization. Its primary mission and obligation is to make money for shareholders.

The losses show that it is failing to meet its objective of profitability. By an enormous margin. In fact, its YE 1Q21 losses were almost double similar-sized United's and 1/3 more than American's.

The ship is taking on lots of water.

Measured by profitability, management's ideas are not working.

In that situation, it's a hard sell to shareholders to make the further leap to say, "And management doesn't want to hear any opposing ideas."

New problems require new solutions. Same old same old is not working here.

And as a shareholder, the losses are so scorching that I don't want them to focus on anything but their core business of making money until the situation improves. Extra-curricular activities need to be temporarily canceled to make more time to study, etc.

After all, companies like Borders, Blockbuster, and Braniff aren't very effective political advocates today. Even if their intentions were good, they just don't have a pedestal to voice them anymore.


Branding and PR are not ‘extra curricular’ activities though - and neither is enforcement of HR policies. If Lady MAGA or a BLM activist are bringing undue negative attention to the brand, a termination process is not the brass taking eye of the ball - it gets handled by the appropriate department. Most executives are not even aware of such proceedings until they are already closed and/or become newsworthy.
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seb146
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:20 pm

n9801f wrote:
OA412 wrote:
You keep making the claim that DL isn't focused on financial losses because they're going after employees for their political beliefs.

Well, no, that's not quite what I mean. I'll clarify.

Delta is incorporated as a Delaware Corporation to make money. It is not incorporated as a Political Action Committee or a social welfare organization. Its primary mission and obligation is to make money for shareholders.

The losses show that it is failing to meet its objective of profitability. By an enormous margin. In fact, its YE 1Q21 losses were almost double similar-sized United's and 1/3 more than American's.

The ship is taking on lots of water.

Measured by profitability, management's ideas are not working.

In that situation, it's a hard sell to shareholders to make the further leap to say, "And management doesn't want to hear any opposing ideas."

New problems require new solutions. Same old same old is not working here.

And as a shareholder, the losses are so scorching that I don't want them to focus on anything but their core business of making money until the situation improves. Extra-curricular activities need to be temporarily canceled to make more time to study, etc.

After all, companies like Borders, Blockbuster, and Braniff aren't very effective political advocates today. Even if their intentions were good, they just don't have a pedestal to voice them anymore.


I would argue that United and American are as political as Delta. Using a years old meme to gin up the base is nothing new. Delta being political has zero to do with their losses.

The transit agency in Portland, Tri-Met, is political. They do things for Black History Month, Pride, Indigenous People's Day, etc. They lost money a couple of years ago because the board decided to buy diesel fuel on a different scale than they had before. That turned out to be a huge mistake during the oil crisis in the 2000s. They lost money hand over fist. But, those huge losses were because Tri-Met is too political. Right?
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n9801f
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:55 pm

The thing is, who's going to listen?

"Sage advice and tips for living from the guys who just lost $12.4B"?

No thanks!

And as for PR, HR, Branding, etc. being essential, they're only essential if you remain a going concern.

I think these guys should just quietly put their heads down and improve results from worst-in-peer-set.

Then maybe they’ll regain the cred to speak up.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
n9801f wrote:
OA412 wrote:
You keep making the claim that DL isn't focused on financial losses because they're going after employees for their political beliefs.

Well, no, that's not quite what I mean. I'll clarify.

Delta is incorporated as a Delaware Corporation to make money. It is not incorporated as a Political Action Committee or a social welfare organization. Its primary mission and obligation is to make money for shareholders.

The losses show that it is failing to meet its objective of profitability. By an enormous margin. In fact, its YE 1Q21 losses were almost double similar-sized United's and 1/3 more than American's.

The ship is taking on lots of water.

Measured by profitability, management's ideas are not working.

In that situation, it's a hard sell to shareholders to make the further leap to say, "And management doesn't want to hear any opposing ideas."

New problems require new solutions. Same old same old is not working here.

And as a shareholder, the losses are so scorching that I don't want them to focus on anything but their core business of making money until the situation improves. Extra-curricular activities need to be temporarily canceled to make more time to study, etc.

After all, companies like Borders, Blockbuster, and Braniff aren't very effective political advocates today. Even if their intentions were good, they just don't have a pedestal to voice them anymore.


I would argue that United and American are as political as Delta. Using a years old meme to gin up the base is nothing new. Delta being political has zero to do with their losses.

The transit agency in Portland, Tri-Met, is political. They do things for Black History Month, Pride, Indigenous People's Day, etc. They lost money a couple of years ago because the board decided to buy diesel fuel on a different scale than they had before. That turned out to be a huge mistake during the oil crisis in the 2000s. They lost money hand over fist. But, those huge losses were because Tri-Met is too political. Right?


Maybe they should have put those employees minds to work on determining the best outcome as a business instead of focussing on the described items that aren’t necessary for a company to function commercially.

If one is “forced” to pay a certain price for using a service like transportation, no part of the money spent should be used on political matters.
 
n9801f
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:08 pm

chimborazo wrote:
Maybe they should have put those employees minds to work on determining the best outcome as a business instead of focussing on the described items that aren’t necessary for a company to function commercially.
:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Yes!

That's the nub of it.

Delta's competitors certainly focus there.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:01 pm

n9801f wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
Maybe they should have put those employees minds to work on determining the best outcome as a business instead of focussing on the described items that aren’t necessary for a company to function commercially.
:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Yes!

That's the nub of it.

Delta's competitors certainly focus there.


Yes but that’s the other rub - some BODs have concluded it is essential to brand identify as inclusive to function commercially. If so that’ll become part and parcel of the company’s public persona.
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Virtual737
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:00 am

I do agree strongly with one point in the letter. The "representing Delta 24/7". If, in my own time, I wanted to do something that has nothing to do with my employer, that does not name my employer and does not involve my employer directly, they have no hold on me whatsoever. If they want me to only mirror their image and beliefs 24/7 then they need to compensate me 24/7.

That an employees actions outside of work can come back to harm the employer's PR is a fault in our use of media and our insatiable desire to see people punished for anything and everything regardless of connection. It is not the fault of the employee.
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:14 am

Virtual737 wrote:
It is not the fault of the employee.


It certainly is the fault of the (now ex-) employee if they publicly appear and espouse racist views, conspiracy theories, and/or generally unacceptable social behavior, all while making it clear that he/she is an employee of a particular company or organization, or if that employee has a public-facing job. Potential customers may not be inclined to patronize any company or organization that would hire and continue to employ such a disreputable individual; his or her actions are a reflection of the standards the company finds acceptable, in the eyes of the public.
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:24 am

Virtual737 wrote:
I do agree strongly with one point in the letter. The "representing Delta 24/7". If, in my own time, I wanted to do something that has nothing to do with my employer, that does not name my employer and does not involve my employer directly, they have no hold on me whatsoever. If they want me to only mirror their image and beliefs 24/7 then they need to compensate me 24/7.

That an employees actions outside of work can come back to harm the employer's PR is a fault in our use of media and our insatiable desire to see people punished for anything and everything regardless of connection. It is not the fault of the employee.


It's true to an extent - but with the large caveat of how you conduct yourself. If a particular person has become a social media personality, and makes their employer/position known, as some have, that obviously carries risks. If you use a pseudonym, never identify your employer, and don't show pictures of yourself at work, then that's a whole different thing - the nexus to work is gone. Another thing some of these characters neglect to do is include the statement: Any views expressed are mine, mine alone, and do not reflect the views or opinions of my employer. Pretty simple stuff.

Here is a case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3i8QFwOnSU
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Virtual737
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:32 am

alfa164 wrote:
...all while making it clear that he/she is an employee of a particular company or organization


This bit I agree with.

alfa164 wrote:
, or if that employee has a public-facing job.


But this bit I don't.

alfa164 wrote:
Potential customers may not be inclined to patronize any company or organization that would hire and continue to employ such a disreputable individual; his or her actions are a reflection of the standards the company finds acceptable, in the eyes of the public.


If the actions of the employee are legal then the employer should butt out. If they are illegal then it's down to law enforcement to act and the employer can do whatever they need to after a potential conviction.

If the employer is worried about potential loss of sales then they need to take that into account during the hiring process, or, as I mentioned, properly compensate the employee for having to act in a certain manner 24/7.

Aaron747 wrote:
If a particular person has become a social media personality, and makes their employer/position known, as some have, that obviously carries risks.


Agreed. If the employee has an online presence and have made it clear that they are an employee of X then all bets are off.
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:39 am

Virtual737 wrote:
If the employer is worried about potential loss of sales then they need to take that into account during the hiring process, or, as I mentioned, properly compensate the employee for having to act in a certain manner 24/7.


This will never happen. To employers, it is implicit when one accepts a position that they accept current as well as future policies. If employees don't like those changes they are free to hunt for something else and walk at any time. This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.
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tommy1808
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:49 am

Aaron747 wrote:
n9801f wrote:
chimborazo wrote:
Maybe they should have put those employees minds to work on determining the best outcome as a business instead of focussing on the described items that aren’t necessary for a company to function commercially.
:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Yes!

That's the nub of it.

Delta's competitors certainly focus there.


Yes but that’s the other rub - some BODs have concluded it is essential to brand identify as inclusive to function commercially. If so that’ll become part and parcel of the company’s public persona.


Staying away from divisive messages in general is always a good idea, and identifying with somewhat progressive ideas is just good business sense when most of the spending power is with liberals.

Companies don´t do it for the fun of it or our of the goodness of their hearts, but because they came to the conclusion it is good for business.

best regards
Thomas
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Virtual737
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:49 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
If the employer is worried about potential loss of sales then they need to take that into account during the hiring process, or, as I mentioned, properly compensate the employee for having to act in a certain manner 24/7.


This will never happen. To employers, it is implicit when one accepts a position that they accept current as well as future policies. If employees don't like those changes they are free to hunt for something else and walk at any time. This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.


That is putting all the onus on the employee and not on the employer. While my employer is compensating me, what they say goes. When they are not, I am my own person and as long as I am abiding by the laws of the land then all bets are off.

For me this all boils down to an increasing issue with society as a whole and our intolerance of people or beliefs that are different to our own, regardless of legality. For arguments sake, and to keep it non-political.. let's say that I am an ardent supporter of fidget spinning and am personally against all forms of pheasant plucking, both issues having become "hot topics" in the world. If I was cabin crew for DAL then the only thing that should matter to DAL is whether I am good at my job, which primarily is safety related. If I refused to serve a customer that I knew was a pheasant plucker then I should be terminated. If a customer raised a complaint about me because I am a fidget spinner, the employer should have my back and make it totally clear that their employees are free thinkers who have every right to act and think in whatever manner they want to, subject to the laws of the land.

I am choosing an airline based on their ability to get me from A to B safely, comfortably and at a price that I feel is reasonable. If I want to put any other conditions on my airline of choice (perhaps carbon offsetting aside) then I really need to take a long, hard look at myself.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is also responsible to way too much intolerance. Mind your own business is an older term that should absolutely be used more often nowadays.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:58 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
If the employer is worried about potential loss of sales then they need to take that into account during the hiring process, or, as I mentioned, properly compensate the employee for having to act in a certain manner 24/7.


This will never happen. To employers, it is implicit when one accepts a position that they accept current as well as future policies. If employees don't like those changes they are free to hunt for something else and walk at any time. This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.


That is putting all the onus on the employee and not on the employer. While my employer is compensating me, what they say goes. When they are not, I am my own person and as long as I am abiding by the laws of the land then all bets are off.

For me this all boils down to an increasing issue with society as a whole and our intolerance of people or beliefs that are different to our own, regardless of legality. For arguments sake, and to keep it non-political.. let's say that I am an ardent supporter of fidget spinning and am personally against all forms of pheasant plucking, both issues having become "hot topics" in the world. If I was cabin crew for DAL then the only thing that should matter to DAL is whether I am good at my job, which primarily is safety related. If I refused to serve a customer that I knew was a pheasant plucker then I should be terminated. If a customer raised a complaint about me because I am a fidget spinner, the employer should have my back and make it totally clear that their employees are free thinkers who have every right to act and think in whatever manner they want to, subject to the laws of the land.

I am choosing an airline based on their ability to get me from A to B safely, comfortably and at a price that I feel is reasonable. If I want to put any other conditions on my airline of choice (perhaps carbon offsetting aside) then I really need to take a long, hard look at myself.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is also responsible to way too much intolerance. Mind your own business is an older term that should absolutely be used more often nowadays.


There is plenty of onus on the employer. As an HR manager, I can attest to many nights and even some weekends lost to following up on complaints and properly documenting investigations. Every verification, conversation, witness statement etc. must be vetted, memorialized, documented, inventoried, etc. These are simply legal requirements. There are often conversations with the folks upstairs that this or that policy change will increase the amount of needed follow-up, and cost, but sometimes that's just the way the wind blows and so be it. No one person or company can control how litigious society is.

Not necessarily disagreeing with your premise, especially because fidget spinning is non-divisive, even if a 'hot' topic. But one question immediately came to mind: how would a customer come by the knowledge that you are a fidget spinner? That could be the difference between an issue and a non-issue. If a. they memorized your name tag, stalked you online, and then complained to the company you're a fidget spinner, it would be a non-issue and I would have your back. If b. you discussed fidget spinning at length with the customer, not knowing they didn't like it, and continued when they expressed disinterest, and the complaint followed *that*, my first question in a meeting would be: what did several minutes of impassioned advocacy for fidget spinning have to do with carrying out cabin crew duties?
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Virtual737
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Not necessarily disagreeing with your premise, especially because fidget spinning is non-divisive, even if a 'hot' topic. But one question immediately came to mind: how would a customer come by the knowledge that you are a fidget spinner? That could be the difference between an issue and a non-issue. If a. they memorized your name tag, stalked you online, and then complained to the company you're a fidget spinner, it would be a non-issue and I would have your back. If b. you discussed fidget spinning at length with the customer, not knowing they didn't like it, and continued when they expressed disinterest, and the complaint followed *that*, my first question in a meeting would be: what did several minutes of impassioned advocacy for fidget spinning have to do with carrying out cabin crew duties?


Good points. The latter was while I was being compensated by my employer and I showed a total lack of customer service skills, so training, a quiet word, a disciplinary procedure etc would all be valid courses of action.

To clarify, I don't blame Delta or any other business for feeling the need to take this approach. My problem is about what the internet is turning us into. For the record, I've not been an employee for many years and I run my own business. Delta is a huge employer and has/had ~90,000 employees. For a customer to think that all of Delta holds this view or that view, or doesn't hold any view whatsoever is ridiculous, as is choosing them over a perceived impression that the company represents this or that because of a possible view of an employee.

I might be tempted to have a boilerplate that reads words to the effect of "We take pride in offering you the best.... blah blah blah. To do that we employ exceptional, free thinking individuals from all walks of life, While onboard, your safety and comfort is their only concern" followed by the small print of "so while they are not working, mind your own business".
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:14 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Not necessarily disagreeing with your premise, especially because fidget spinning is non-divisive, even if a 'hot' topic. But one question immediately came to mind: how would a customer come by the knowledge that you are a fidget spinner? That could be the difference between an issue and a non-issue. If a. they memorized your name tag, stalked you online, and then complained to the company you're a fidget spinner, it would be a non-issue and I would have your back. If b. you discussed fidget spinning at length with the customer, not knowing they didn't like it, and continued when they expressed disinterest, and the complaint followed *that*, my first question in a meeting would be: what did several minutes of impassioned advocacy for fidget spinning have to do with carrying out cabin crew duties?


Good points. The latter was while I was being compensated by my employer and I showed a total lack of customer service skills, so training, a quiet word, a disciplinary procedure etc would all be valid courses of action.

To clarify, I don't blame Delta or any other business for feeling the need to take this approach. My problem is about what the internet is turning us into. For the record, I've not been an employee for many years and I run my own business. Delta is a huge employer and has/had ~90,000 employees. For a customer to think that all of Delta holds this view or that view, or doesn't hold any view whatsoever is ridiculous, as is choosing them over a perceived impression that the company represents this or that because of a possible view of an employee.

I might be tempted to have a boilerplate that reads words to the effect of "We take pride in offering you the best.... blah blah blah. To do that we employ exceptional, free thinking individuals from all walks of life, While onboard, your safety and comfort is their only concern" followed by the small print of "so while they are not working, mind your own business".


If your main point is that the public should mind their own business and not obsess over what employee X of Y company is saying/doing, I agree 100%. But we can't control, much less do much about what the zeitgeist is or how low everyone's offensiveness threshold has become. What I have been trying to convey is that given how things are online these days, if people were a *little* more careful about what they show of themselves and how, there would be far fewer issues. The real message is: you can do what you like off the clock, but if it's even the least bit controversial or discrediting to us, don't make it possible for everyone to know about it.
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Virtual737
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:15 am

Aaron747 wrote:

If your main point is that the public should mind their own business and not obsess over what employee X of Y company is saying/doing, I agree 100%. But we can't control, much less do much about what the zeitgeist is or how low everyone's offensiveness threshold has become. What I have been trying to convey is that given how things are online these days, if people were a *little* more careful about what they show of themselves and how, there would be far fewer issues.


Amen to that Sir.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.


Surely they're compensated for that in some way ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:15 am

Aesma wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.


Surely they're compensated for that in some way ?


The laws on that are complex and are different in almost every state, which is why on-call schedules are avoided whenever possible. Generally employees are only paid if they are on call at the actual work site, and if they answer calls while at home, there are many states that require full or partial pay for that specific time.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
afcjets
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:19 am

NLINK wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Can you imagine still misspelling your employer’s name, Delta Air Lines, after 20+ years?


There are certain people in charge here that can't spell Delta's name correctly lol.


Especially when they keep changing it.
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:48 am

n9801f wrote:
Delta lost over $12 billion dollars in year end 1Q21. More than any other US airline. I'd hope they'd just focus on fixing that rather than possibly trying to meddle in employees' private lives.

Eventually a CEO of a money-losing company loses some credibility. They no longer have the record of business success enabling their platform for other agendas.
.

Ed Bastian is Doug Parker's new best friend.

(just my opinion)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This is no different than 'on call' employees not being paid for days they are expected to remain near the office or have their phone on.


Surely they're compensated for that in some way ?


The laws on that are complex and are different in almost every state, which is why on-call schedules are avoided whenever possible. Generally employees are only paid if they are on call at the actual work site, and if they answer calls while at home, there are many states that require full or partial pay for that specific time.


I'm on night call from time to time, it lasts a week and I get the equivalent of 2 days of pay for that. Why would I do it for no pay ? I can't get out, go to the cinema or restaurant, I can be called while sleeping...

If I'm actually called then I get paid for the hours of work on top of it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:36 am

Aesma wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Surely they're compensated for that in some way ?


The laws on that are complex and are different in almost every state, which is why on-call schedules are avoided whenever possible. Generally employees are only paid if they are on call at the actual work site, and if they answer calls while at home, there are many states that require full or partial pay for that specific time.


I'm on night call from time to time, it lasts a week and I get the equivalent of 2 days of pay for that. Why would I do it for no pay ? I can't get out, go to the cinema or restaurant, I can be called while sleeping...

If I'm actually called then I get paid for the hours of work on top of it.


That's why people working in the EU should consider themselves fortunate :)
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pune
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:09 pm

Coming from India and care share two instances, one which happened with me and one which happened with another gentleman, same airways, differenet days -

I was going from place A to place B within India. I took the boarding card/ticket and boarded the bus and was on plane. While trying to figure out my seat, realized I have misplaced the boarding card/ticket. I searched my handbag but couldn't get it. Called up the flight attendant and shared, they talked with the captain and the ground crew and weren't able to find the boarding cared/ticket between the places I mentioned (either at the gate or in the bus which were the likely culprits). She had taken a look at my name and surname and then within 5 minutes we were air-borne. It was red flight. Reached home, slept . 2- 3 days later, a muslim man had a similar incident. This time he was put lock and key for suspicion. Later on, they also found his boarding card/ticket but the airplane had been in air for 30-40 minutes, most air journeys in India are at most an hr.. It came up as a news item in a small corner. As somebody who attempts to keep updated on various airlines and what they are doing, I came to know, otherwise would not have known. Didn't ever come to know if the gentleman was compensated one way or the other. Ideally, the management should have apologized and give him the whatever best they can offer. Did they do it, don't think so, otherwise that too would have been mentioned. And this had come in business paper.

It is a small incident but it does tell and how perceptions are made one way or the other.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:25 pm

Moral of the story, if you want to express your personal opinions on the internet, keep your employment details private from the beginning. One cannot use their employment to have huge group thinking supporters to gang up on others and show privacy card when you are in trouble.

On the flip side, commenting on spelling mistakes or grammar is a standard lame PR technique. We don't know his/her education level. Writing a letter criticizing management while trying to be anonymous creates lot of stress. Can't match penmanship of publicists and attorneys. Give a break.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Moral of the story, if you want to express your personal opinions on the internet, keep your employment details private from the beginning. One cannot use their employment to have huge group thinking supporters to gang up on others and show privacy card when you are in trouble.

On the flip side, commenting on spelling mistakes or grammar is a standard lame PR technique. We don't know his/her education level. Writing a letter criticizing management while trying to be anonymous creates lot of stress. Can't match penmanship of publicists and attorneys. Give a break.


Education level of the writer is irrelevant - they are trying to get their message received by people who *are* of a high education level. The audience is the focus. A little common sense would suggest that if they want the most impact from the letter, and aren't confident with writing, they should dictate the letter to someone who can write well.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:14 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Moral of the story, if you want to express your personal opinions on the internet, keep your employment details private from the beginning. One cannot use their employment to have huge group thinking supporters to gang up on others and show privacy card when you are in trouble.

On the flip side, commenting on spelling mistakes or grammar is a standard lame PR technique. We don't know his/her education level. Writing a letter criticizing management while trying to be anonymous creates lot of stress. Can't match penmanship of publicists and attorneys. Give a break.


Education level of the writer is irrelevant - they are trying to get their message received by people who *are* of a high education level. The audience is the focus. A little common sense would suggest that if they want the most impact from the letter, and aren't confident with writing, they should dictate the letter to someone who can write well.


Are you saying a $14/hr ramp worker should hire a ghost writer so his/her views are penned in Kings English?

I (nothing do with Delta) personally agree with Delta's political/public leanings, but I see validity in the intent of the letter.

When corporations are controlling employees' social media posts, shouldn't they practice the same?
All posts are just opinions.
 
afcjets
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:15 pm

If I were Lady MAGA, I would accuse Delta of hating transvestites ;)
Last edited by afcjets on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FGITD
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:19 pm

afcjets wrote:
NLINK wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Can you imagine still misspelling your employer’s name, Delta Air Lines, after 20+ years?


There are certain people in charge here that can't spell Delta's name correctly lol.


Especially when they keep changing it.


Sure is hard to keep up with them! After all, they’ve only been named Delta Air Lines since 1945. I myself keep accidentally searching Huff Daland Dusters when I try to book on DL.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Moral of the story, if you want to express your personal opinions on the internet, keep your employment details private from the beginning. One cannot use their employment to have huge group thinking supporters to gang up on others and show privacy card when you are in trouble.

On the flip side, commenting on spelling mistakes or grammar is a standard lame PR technique. We don't know his/her education level. Writing a letter criticizing management while trying to be anonymous creates lot of stress. Can't match penmanship of publicists and attorneys. Give a break.


Education level of the writer is irrelevant - they are trying to get their message received by people who *are* of a high education level. The audience is the focus. A little common sense would suggest that if they want the most impact from the letter, and aren't confident with writing, they should dictate the letter to someone who can write well.


Are you saying a $14/hr ramp worker should hire a ghost writer so his/her views are penned in Kings English?

I (nothing do with Delta) personally agree with Delta's political/public leanings, but I see validity in the intent of the letter.

When corporations are controlling employees' social media posts, shouldn't they practice the same?


I didn't say anything about hiring someone - in almost anyone's circle it shouldn't be that hard to find a friend/relative who knows someone that can write professionally. Just a matter of reaching out.

And I'm not passing judgment on what kind of English is best - just being pragmatic. Communications that are not presented professionally tend to be ignored by gatekeepers in executive departments, full stop.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:21 pm

afcjets wrote:
If I were Lady MAGA, I would accuse Delta of hating transvestites.

Roy Cohn, Trump's mentor, was a gay man that helped conservatives purge gays from the government, and then died of AIDS while his conservative friends were objectively pro the disease (just like today!). That's what Lady MAGA, or any gay republican is--self destructive trash. At least Cohn allegedly had some type of talent and competency.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
afcjets
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:33 pm

FGITD wrote:
Sure is hard to keep up with them! After all, they’ve only been named Delta Air Lines since 1945. I myself keep accidentally searching Huff Daland Dusters when I try to book on DL.

No they haven't. I don't remember the exact year but I'm guessing somewhere around 15-20 years ago they announced they were changing their official name to Delta Airlines. I actually didn't even know they changed it back. And before you ask, no I didn't write that letter lol. (nor do I work for or have I ever worked for Delta)
 
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:55 pm

If you'd like to discuss DLs financials, please do so in Civil Aviation. The topic is an employee who was terminated, not DLs profits/losses.
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NLINK
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:57 pm

afcjets wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Sure is hard to keep up with them! After all, they’ve only been named Delta Air Lines since 1945. I myself keep accidentally searching Huff Daland Dusters when I try to book on DL.

No they haven't. I don't remember the exact year but I'm guessing somewhere around 15-20 years ago they announced they were changing their official name to Delta Airlines. I actually didn't even know they changed it back. And before you ask, no I didn't write that letter lol. (nor do I work for or have I ever worked for Delta)



You can read the history here. It's not Delta Airlines, it is Delta Air Lines. Like I said and got in trouble for letting people in charge know they were spelling it wrong on an aviation enthusiast forum but they still spell in wrong. Not real surprising though in today's environment. Look at the SEC filings also of the correct name.

https://news.delta.com/deltas-history-d ... ting-world
 
afcjets
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:29 pm

OA412 wrote:
If you'd like to discuss DLs financials, please do so in Civil Aviation. The topic is an employee who was terminated, not DLs profits/losses.


Please see the third to last paragraph on the second page of the letter. It has everything to do with Delta's financials and is the only point the letter is making that actually matters. The letter calls for replacing Ed and their abysmal financial performance (especially compared to their competitors and their previous ranking) is what will most easily justify that.
 
FGITD
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:34 pm

afcjets wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Sure is hard to keep up with them! After all, they’ve only been named Delta Air Lines since 1945. I myself keep accidentally searching Huff Daland Dusters when I try to book on DL.

No they haven't. I don't remember the exact year but I'm guessing somewhere around 15-20 years ago they announced they were changing their official name to Delta Airlines. I actually didn't even know they changed it back. And before you ask, no I didn't write that letter lol. (nor do I work for or have I ever worked for Delta)


You misremember. Delta has used some variation of Air Lines since the 30s and made it official in 1945.

It’s all semantics, but it’s just an odd mistake to make in a letter to the CEO
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Anonymous letter of Delta employee to a CEO.

Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:35 pm

afcjets wrote:
OA412 wrote:
If you'd like to discuss DLs financials, please do so in Civil Aviation. The topic is an employee who was terminated, not DLs profits/losses.


Please see the third to last paragraph on the second page of the letter. It has everything to do with Delta's financials and is the only point the letter is making that actually matters. The letter calls for replacing Ed and their abysmal financial performance (especially compared to their competitors and their previous ranking) is what will most easily justify that.


That was a salient point, sure, but that’s up to the board, not a rando employee.
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