Caution video has NSFW language.
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/14 ... 0757479427

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

I connected with DL in LGA and 2 passengers were arguing aggressive at the gate, the gate agent told them they would get police involved. Minutes later the 2 gate agents got into it in front of everyone, with one ending up crying.

Covid was bad, but I miss the less crowded flights during Covid.

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

flyboy80 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

Same. It's all over the place now and not just on airplanes. I used to never witness road rage instances yet the other day when driving home from RIC I witnessed no fewer than 3 separate instances all within a span of 20 minutes. People ramming people in the grocery stores with grocery carts, shouting at wait staff at restaurants, pedestrians flipping you off when they're crossing the street. It's absolutely insane!

I wish more people understood the physics of how aircraft cabin doors work. There is no reason to risk injury to oneself to try to prevent someone from trying to open a cabin door on an airliner at altitude. There are thousands of pounds of force keeping that door in place. Arnold Swarzenegger at his peak physical conditioning couldn't have opened one.

fraspotter wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

Same. It's all over the place now and not just on airplanes. I used to never witness road rage instances yet the other day when driving home from RIC I witnessed no fewer than 3 separate instances all within a span of 20 minutes. People ramming people in the grocery stores with grocery carts, shouting at wait staff at restaurants, pedestrians flipping you off when they're crossing the street. It's absolutely insane!

I agree. I have a great friend who is a captain at a major airline and he sent me a video of multiple employees in a fight at a large airport. I think COVID-19 has really tested peoples mental ability and we are going to see a huge rise in that field. I also noticed 4 guys fighting the other night in a park while running and it was over Pokemon, which is crazy.

flyboy80 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

PA727 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

Couldn't agree more. Eventually, like all things, my guess is it will reach a tipping point leading to a rejection of social media. The big question is, how much longer until we get there, and at what ultimate cost?

Hopefully soon. Social media has unraveled the very last threads in the moral fabric in society.

Back to the topic. It’s time to put these people who behave like this on a permanent US no-fly list along with very steep fines, jail time, and restitution to cover carrier/pax compensation.

Revelation wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

I agree. In my early days in the industry working at an airport it was not super uncommon to have stuff thrown at you and you would either walk away or throw it back, depending on the situation. I've also seen someone stabbed with a pencil over a late check in bag and it didn't make the flight, I've had a co worker punched by someone over a lost bag, who did punch the person back. This was mid 1990's until mid 2000's In the industry. I was out of the direct customer contact right after 9/11 which was so nice. The police would usually see the situation taken care of and turn around and leave. I would say it was a mix of alcohol related and self entitlement.

It was something that was kept local, the few employees that saw it just shrugged and went on about his or her day. Now these things would be all over social media.

This flight rage thing must be dealt with swiftly and severe punishment should be handed out. I see why people just sit in the terminal with thier heads buried in thier phones. Everyone is afraid to say anything to another person for fear of an argument breaking out. I always go out of my way to be courteous and compliant with a flight crew and gate staff. They can be the persons that hold your life in thier hands. I agree that social media has caused a lot of this turmoil, that's why I don't participate in any of it. No FB, Twit, Insta, or any other social media. If you need to tell me something call me.

Revelation wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Fight broke out on my DL flight while boarding in ATL the other night. Two women started yelling, pushing, and shoving and then others in their entourage got involved.
6 people were booted off before we departed.

Saw two workers at a hotel I staying at get in a fight in the lobby this week. Pushed the other dude to the ground.

I have seen so many people lose their mind in the past several months it’s crazy

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

Certainly we see more videos of this ugliness thanks to social media, but the number of crew reporting incidents to the FAA is also way up this year.

The previous high was 310 incidents for all of 2004, and this year has already reached 394 incidents as of May 25th. Data source: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/passe ... assengers/

This does not bode well.

This thread has reminded me of an incident where a passenger came behind our ticket counter and punched a rather petite female CSA because there was no way to accommodate his demand to be placed on another flight*. That is, he had arrived at the airport too late to make his scheduled flight and there were no seats available for the rest of the day. As I recall, she did offer to put him as a revenue standby, but that wasn't good enough. So he punched her.

Sadly, our employer didn't back her up, but she pursued charges against him anyway. The company asked her several times to drop the charges, but she wouldn't and didn't.

All of this was 34 years ago, well before social media.

I do agree that those responsible should be held accountable. Just my opinion, but I think alcohol sales in the terminal should be limited to perhaps one drink with no alcohol sales onboard.

*To me, it's a bit ironic that he could have rented a car and driven to the destination in about 4 to 5 hours.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

True, mental illness is totally only an American problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

I am bifurcating incidents where two pax (or employees - yikes) get into an argument, and a situation where somebody is clearly having a dangerous psychiatric episode. People fighting are usually not trying to kill themselves, or take an action that could kill other people. When people try to open the doors inflight, I'm guessing they are unaware of the futility of these efforts, and what is the intent?

In other words, this is more than a badly behaved person. This is a dangerously crazy person.

nine4nine wrote:

PA727 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

Couldn't agree more. Eventually, like all things, my guess is it will reach a tipping point leading to a rejection of social media. The big question is, how much longer until we get there, and at what ultimate cost?

Hopefully soon. Social media has unraveled the very last threads in the moral fabric in society.

Back to the topic. It’s time to put these people who behave like this on a permanent US no-fly list along with very steep fines, jail time, and restitution to cover carrier/pax compensation.

It's easy to get angry and especially so over this past year. Last summer I was a rabid anti-masker before I eventually sort of came around when I realized that my anger over that (as well as all sorts of minutiae were all caused by a self-absorption that turned me inward and saw everyone else as rivals/competitors and out to get me with myself the only one I could trust.

Turning outward again and seeing other people for their own sake helped fix a lot in my own life. But I still agree that there are a lot of angry people out there and its hard to tell what really happened in any small circumstance that people get angry over. I see it all the time with things that bother my friends. Was there more to the situation that I don't know? Which side do I believe?

The healthiest thing for everyone seems to be a sort of healthy skepticism that's slow to come to emotional conclusions and sees the complex potential for both deficient motives and underlying good intentions in everyone.

On the topic though, is it true that you can't open the door in a pressurized cabin? How did the famed D.B. Cooper do it?

How many millions of people sealed themselves off from civilization last year, leaving them with little to do but stew in their own thoughts and resentments and to use social media to find others similarly aggrieved in their own minds?

It's really little surprise re-entry is proving difficult.

SumChristianus wrote:

...On the topic though, is it true that you can't open the door in a pressurized cabin? How did the famed D.B. Cooper do it?

IIRC, Cooper demanded a descent to a lower altitude, this produced a lower differential pressure (I don't recall if he insisted on depressurization). At the lower altitudes, the differential pressure acting on a door is much less than at (high) cruise altitudes. Also, Cooper used the aft airstairs to jump from; they're not in a pressurized area anyway. So once he opened the aft-most cabin door - at the end of the aisle - there was no issue.

Most cabin doors are plug type, so any differential pressure pushes them against the wall. At cruise altitude, 8 psi against any cabin door results in enough force to keep someone from opening the door.

SumChristianus wrote:

On the topic though, is it true that you can't open the door in a pressurized cabin? How did the famed D.B. Cooper do it?

He instructed the pilots to fly at 10,000 ft where pressurization wasn't needed. He also opened the tail door on a 727 which opens mechanically. It isn't a plug door.

2eng2efficient wrote:

I am bifurcating incidents where two pax (or employees - yikes) get into an argument, and a situation where somebody is clearly having a dangerous psychiatric episode. People fighting are usually not trying to kill themselves, or take an action that could kill other people. When people try to open the doors inflight, I'm guessing they are unaware of the futility of these efforts, and what is the intent?

In other words, this is more than a badly behaved person. This is a dangerously crazy person.

I just wish they would quit diverting to OKC and dumping crazy people. Come on Clark, the $hitter is full.

We have enough crazy people.

Okie

SumChristianus wrote:

nine4nine wrote:

PA727 wrote:

Couldn't agree more. Eventually, like all things, my guess is it will reach a tipping point leading to a rejection of social media. The big question is, how much longer until we get there, and at what ultimate cost?

Hopefully soon. Social media has unraveled the very last threads in the moral fabric in society.

Back to the topic. It’s time to put these people who behave like this on a permanent US no-fly list along with very steep fines, jail time, and restitution to cover carrier/pax compensation.

It's easy to get angry and especially so over this past year. Last summer I was a rabid anti-masker before I eventually sort of came around when I realized that my anger over that (as well as all sorts of minutiae were all caused by a self-absorption that turned me inward and saw everyone else as rivals/competitors and out to get me with myself the only one I could trust.

Turning outward again and seeing other people for their own sake helped fix a lot in my own life. But I still agree that there are a lot of angry people out there and its hard to tell what really happened in any small circumstance that people get angry over. I see it all the time with things that bother my friends. Was there more to the situation that I don't know? Which side do I believe?

The healthiest thing for everyone seems to be a sort of healthy skepticism that's slow to come to emotional conclusions and sees the complex potential for both deficient motives and underlying good intentions in everyone.

On the topic though, is it true that you can't open the door in a pressurized cabin? How did the famed D.B. Cooper do it?

Just want to say thank you for your open and honest post. It takes a lot of courage to write what you did on an open forum like this and I commend you for that.

nwair8908 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

I notice it allover the place now: grocery stores, garden center by my house- these altercations are out of control. There seems to be this inclination amongst people to behave like children when they have an issue/conflict with someone else in public. I know part of it comes from frustration by how overall inconsiderate our society has become i.e. listening to music in public without headphones and other types of non-courteous behavior which often "sparks" the confrontations.

Some have said "it's because there are more opportunities for this behavior to be recorded" but I disagree. Pre-covid passengers were becoming more hostile on the aircraft just by the way they spoke to each other and with a lack of evident respect for airline crew, and now we're seeing these types of events almost daily. I used to see peculiar behaviors sometimes on international flights- it was often suspected from evidence and statements they were mixing prescriptions and alcohol- and often were traveling by themselves.

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

danman132x wrote:

People in this country have absolutely lost it. It's all about themselves, very self centered. Social media has a huge part to play in this, giving everyone a voice. I hope the person who caused this flight to divert has to pay everything back to Delta and additional fines. Everyone acting like this deserves to pay big time. It's time we start holding them all accountable. Society has become out of control. Seem to read more about it in the USA compared to any other country. What is wrong with people?

Certainly we see more videos of this ugliness thanks to social media, but the number of crew reporting incidents to the FAA is also way up this year.

The previous high was 310 incidents for all of 2004, and this year has already reached 394 incidents as of May 25th. Data source: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/passe ... assengers/

This does not bode well.

I would add that reporting incidents have become a lot easier for crew these days as reports can be filed electronically whilst on duty as opposed to before when you'd have to wait to return to base and submit a report/statement either by hand or on a computer. This should also account for the increased in reported events as of late.

Judge1310 wrote:

nwair8908 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

You really don't think this sense of disorder is amplified because we see video of the one-out-of-a-thousand or more flights that have an altercation on them?

In the days before cameras were everywhere this would have been a story for the staff and pax on this plane and cops to tell friends and family, and maybe a paragraph or two in tomorrow's newspaper. Instead I came to this thread having seen the video already, and millions others have too.

You really don't think this general sense of discontent isn't amplified because we read the countless whiney and snarky posts in pretty much every twitter or facebook response section?

Folks, we are all living through a giant social experiment called social media, and unfortunately there's no going back.

Certainly we see more videos of this ugliness thanks to social media, but the number of crew reporting incidents to the FAA is also way up this year.

The previous high was 310 incidents for all of 2004, and this year has already reached 394 incidents as of May 25th. Data source: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/passe ... assengers/

This does not bode well.

I would add that reporting incidents have become a lot easier for crew these days as reports can be filed electronically whilst on duty as opposed to before when you'd have to wait to return to base and submit a report/statement either by hand or on a computer. This should also account for the increased in reported events as of late.

In reality the FAA is simply just pulling more reports as well. I've been getting weekly emails from the CMO for one of our regional carriers asking for info, before we used to get one to three per year. The ground side of the report (CSM, GSC, CRO, whomever met the flight/issue) has always been available to the FAA but there was usually no real follow-up.

alasizon wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

nwair8908 wrote:

Certainly we see more videos of this ugliness thanks to social media, but the number of crew reporting incidents to the FAA is also way up this year.

The previous high was 310 incidents for all of 2004, and this year has already reached 394 incidents as of May 25th. Data source: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/passe ... assengers/

This does not bode well.

I would add that reporting incidents have become a lot easier for crew these days as reports can be filed electronically whilst on duty as opposed to before when you'd have to wait to return to base and submit a report/statement either by hand or on a computer. This should also account for the increased in reported events as of late.

In reality the FAA is simply just pulling more reports as well. I've been getting weekly emails from the CMO for one of our regional carriers asking for info, before we used to get one to three per year. The ground side of the report (CSM, GSC, CRO, whomever met the flight/issue) has always been available to the FAA but there was usually no real follow-up.

Isn’t this due to a change in FAA policy, which is now much more punitive post 9/11?

All US law enforcement has become more punitive and authoritarian. Military surplus war weapons and emptying your clip as SOP.

We have a police+sheriff firing range in the hills within earshot of our home. We hear automatic weapons training all the time. Why? It’s not reassuring, it’s disturbing.

Police and sheriff do NOT need automatic weapons. If a situation ever reaches the point of needing those weapons (and when has it?), that’s what the national guard is for. Semi-automatic are better suited to what they do. Yet we don’t hear that kind of training up there…

ikramerica wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

I would add that reporting incidents have become a lot easier for crew these days as reports can be filed electronically whilst on duty as opposed to before when you'd have to wait to return to base and submit a report/statement either by hand or on a computer. This should also account for the increased in reported events as of late.

In reality the FAA is simply just pulling more reports as well. I've been getting weekly emails from the CMO for one of our regional carriers asking for info, before we used to get one to three per year. The ground side of the report (CSM, GSC, CRO, whomever met the flight/issue) has always been available to the FAA but there was usually no real follow-up.

Isn’t this due to a change in FAA policy, which is now much more punitive post 9/11?

All US law enforcement has become more punitive and authoritarian. Military surplus war weapons and emptying your clip as SOP.

We have a police+sheriff firing range in the hills within earshot of our home. We hear automatic weapons training all the time. Why? It’s not reassuring, it’s disturbing.

Police and sheriff do NOT need automatic weapons. If a situation ever reaches the point of needing those weapons (and when has it?), that’s what the national guard is for. Semi-automatic are better suited to what they do. Yet we don’t hear that kind of training up there…

First I’m not a bigger police but sometime situations arise.
It has reached the point multiple times. One that comes to mind is in Los Angeles bank robbery. Police were massively out gunned and had to buy/ borrow weapons from a gun shop. To mobilize National Guard it takes a few hours. Wiki is not the best but here is one example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_H ... d_shootout

Another was the FBI in Miami.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout


But I do agree when I drive thru a small neighboring town of about 500 people and the police department of 10 have 2 MRAP (spelling is probably wrong) I wonder why.

ikramerica wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

I would add that reporting incidents have become a lot easier for crew these days as reports can be filed electronically whilst on duty as opposed to before when you'd have to wait to return to base and submit a report/statement either by hand or on a computer. This should also account for the increased in reported events as of late.

In reality the FAA is simply just pulling more reports as well. I've been getting weekly emails from the CMO for one of our regional carriers asking for info, before we used to get one to three per year. The ground side of the report (CSM, GSC, CRO, whomever met the flight/issue) has always been available to the FAA but there was usually no real follow-up.

Isn’t this due to a change in FAA policy, which is now much more punitive post 9/11?

All US law enforcement has become more punitive and authoritarian. Military surplus war weapons and emptying your clip as SOP.

We have a police+sheriff firing range in the hills within earshot of our home. We hear automatic weapons training all the time. Why? It’s not reassuring, it’s disturbing.

Police and sheriff do NOT need automatic weapons. If a situation ever reaches the point of needing those weapons (and when has it?), that’s what the national guard is for. Semi-automatic are better suited to what they do. Yet we don’t hear that kind of training up there…

Has nothing to do with post 9/11, this is all post-COVID. Not sure what police weapons has to do with the FAA reviewing crew member interference issues...

ikramerica wrote:

All US law enforcement has become more punitive and authoritarian. Military surplus war weapons and emptying your clip as SOP.

I respectfully disagree.. To the contrary, "All US law enforcement" has basically been stood down into a purely-reactive force, coming in after-the-victim-is-harmed. That's a big part of the problem. Not everybody is the same. Some people need to be asked not to do things that others would just plain not do. Others need to be told not to do them. Others need to be forced not to do them. Make the police reactive rather than proactive, some people will believe that they can act however they want with impunity. Notice how many times the police show up to these video-ed events at airports and elsewhere and are told "Don't touch me" or "You can't arrest me". That's a result of all the nonsense out there these days. And it turns out to be wrong.

The idea that police routinely use "automatic weapons" is just plain inaccurate. It's not true. Perhaps there is specialized training for use in extremely-rare circumstances, but no beat cop has a full-auto weapon in his car. None. In a world where terrorists and other horribles will have automatic weapons -- illegal but available, because of See Above, reduced police proactivity -- police need to, in rare circumstances, be equipped to respond as needed. Or maybe we could just send in some social workers to talk the terrorists down.

The "militarization of the police" falsehood is just part of an overall narrative that, for reasons I don't understand, seems determined to Bring Crime Back in America. It seems to be based on the fundamental notion that all people are the same, and we should make rules that apply to the basically-good ones without acknowledging that there are people that must be separated from society for society to function in relative safety. Just taking a few folks out of the mix usually makes a big difference in crime, because those folks usually commit most of it. I'm all for addressing the issues that get people where they are, if they are addressable in those people, but in the meantime, there is no reason to permit them to roam freely among the rest of us. The vast majority of people will behave more-or-less acceptably as long as they understand that there reliably will be consequences for their actions. Make them think there won't be, some will act out. And that's what we're seeing.

(As an aside, we already have in this country programs like Probation and Parole that give a second chance -- but they have never been sufficently-funded because they are low-profile. Hire a lot more probation officers and parole officers, who often bring former inmates the structure and caring that the outside world generally does not, and you could go a long way towards making that second chance meaningful. We could go a long way with the existing system towards the result that people claim they want: not discarding people. But just putting people back out without more-than-superficially providing this kind of help is suicidal, as we are seeing. Also, a strong private economy and a need for employees makes a difference in giving these folks the structure and pride that a regular job brings. In the restaurant business, most of my very-best cooks had some criminal history, and I never had to fire a single one, because they valued the job and the opportunity. The ones that did leave left for better opportunities, using us as a steppingstone.)

And NO cop "empties their clip as SOP". The training usually is 2-3 shots, assess, respond further as needed. Facing a person with a gun who is trying to kill you is an extremely-traumatic experience. Most police expect to go their whole career without ever discharging their weapon, and most do. Actually shooting another live human is highly-traumatic, and most police who are forced to do so end up vomiting and being deeply-affected. The SOP is usually to sedate them at the hospital. It's life-altering. And if somebody fires more shots than trained, and you ask them how many shots they fired, they will almost always tell you -- truthfully, as far as they are concerned -- that they fired twice. Adrenaline is a funny thing, and a big adrenaline dump will distort one's perceptions of one's own actions such that most people who shoot more than one or two rounds will be instinctively firing until they perceive the threat to have been eliminated.

My friend that’s an FA at Delta texted me that this person was a commuting Delta FA.

alasizon wrote:

Not sure what police weapons has to do with the FAA reviewing crew member interference issues...

And that would have been a more-efficient way of me making my point.

That said, there's a relationship between people's actions in pubic, writ broadly, and the consequences that they perceive for their actions. I think that fistfights on the plane or in the airport are events of an entirely-different character from trying to open the exit door and/or trying to get into the cockpit. There's a mental component to the latter that suggests either an underlying psycological condition or the ingesting of a behavior-modifying substance, from alcohol to flakka/bath-salts.

The latter group of folks aren't likely thinking of consequences at that moment (although they sensibly should have been pre-ingestion), but the former group could be influenced by understanding a need to be "on their best behavior", regardless of whatever perceived-slight they are responding to with their fists.

This thread needs to go ahead and be locked. It's too far gone.

This was not a fight. It was an off duty flight attendant who was wearing a helmet and knee pads and pax said was acting strange. He took over the intercom and told people to sit down and be ready for O2 masks.

Capt asked able-bodied men to come subdue him. And that was that.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/delta ... index.html

Choice was delete half the topic & lock it or move to non-av.

From an operational perspective I've noticed that when law enforcement is called to an aircraft to address a situation, often there is a several minutes long period of negotiation that takes place with the rule-breaker, who at that point no longer has the right to be on the aircraft.

More mentally unstable air crew. Nice.

LabQuest wrote:

More mentally unstable air crew. Nice.

Really? I wasn't aware of an epidemic of unstable air crews throughout the aviation world. There must be hundreds of them then. There's gotta be a database of all of them. Do you per chance have a link to this massive database?

CaptHadley wrote:

LabQuest wrote:

More mentally unstable air crew. Nice.

Really? I wasn't aware of an epidemic of unstable air crews throughout the aviation world. There must be hundreds of them then. There's gotta be a database of all of them. Do you per chance have a link to this massive database?

I'm just parroting the fact people say the same thing about the public. When was the last time a passenger slammed an A320 full of people into a mountain? Or went on a rant on the PA and was locked out of the cockpit?

Its not an isolated incident. The incidence of mental illness is exactly the same among air crew as it is the general population. They're just better at keeping secret from their employers. Everyone knows admitting to any mental issue to your company is a death warrant for your career so you just keep it secret.