Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:59 pm

It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:08 am

johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


Gotta be able to sell BMW/Mercedes/Audi to those nouveau riche in China. Just capitalism at work.
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


Gotta be able to sell BMW/Mercedes/Audi to those nouveau riche in China. Just capitalism at work.
We do it, just on a smaller scale. We ignore some stuff that China does, but dump on Cuba, because it doesn't really sell anything we need. It's just that the EU even backed down on their original Covid report.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:46 am

johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


Gotta be able to sell BMW/Mercedes/Audi to those nouveau riche in China. Just capitalism at work.
We do it, just on a smaller scale. We ignore some stuff that China does, but dump on Cuba, because it doesn't really sell anything we need. It's just that the EU even backed down on their original Covid report.


We do it on a *massive* scale. Hence the fortunes of the Waltons, just as an example. Middle America ironically complains about China's rise, but they put their own Main Street USAs out of business over three decades by happily patronizing any Wal-Mart that came to town. The mind boggles.
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:37 am

johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


What is "most of Europe"?
This is a G7 meeting, wich means Germany, France and Italy for continental Europe. Those cannot speak in the name of the 24 other countries in Europe.
For example, we very well know that any Euro resolution that goes against China will be blocked by the likes of V. Orban in Hungary. At least that's how it went for the Uigurs's genocide case.

Define also "what it once was". When was Europe a diplomatics heavy weight ? Economically, we're quite big, but we've never been able to agree much on international politics. What were we "once", and when was that?

Seems your post is quite vague, and riding on the xxx society is in decline blah blah fingers pointing.
While I don't like China's actual politics, and try to reduce the impact of China's stuff in what I buy, I
am not interested in coming back to the frontal antagonism that the cold war was.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5727
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:58 am

Well it didn't display the sort of unity some hoped to achieve through this G7 meeting
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:06 am

c933103 wrote:
Well it didn't display the sort of unity some hoped to achieve through this G7 meeting


This has been coming for years. The combined effects of trade imbalances and fiscal challenges is a perfect storm of making alliances and agreement harder than before. Most developed countries are in the same boat - people under 35 have fewer prospects to grow net worth than their parents did, middle classes are squeezed, and demographic change means fewer children and a huge amount of social cost for the elderly in the future. Everyone in the G7 will be Japan if they are not careful.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5727
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:24 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Well it didn't display the sort of unity some hoped to achieve through this G7 meeting


This has been coming for years. The combined effects of trade imbalances and fiscal challenges is a perfect storm of making alliances and agreement harder than before. Most developed countries are in the same boat - people under 35 have fewer prospects to grow net worth than their parents did, middle classes are squeezed, and demographic change means fewer children and a huge amount of social cost for the elderly in the future. Everyone in the G7 will be Japan if they are not careful.

But then all these issues are part of the problem that require an alliance?
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:29 am

Well yes. It can also be Seen as the start of a new negociation on what a common position can be.

Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.
Europe has probably well understood that the US can revert to an unfriendly stance in as little as 4 years. And that following blindly for years to get slapped in the face the next day isn't all that.

Disagreements can be productive if they result in New propositions/positions.
Let's be a little patient and see what comes out of this.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:44 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Well it didn't display the sort of unity some hoped to achieve through this G7 meeting


This has been coming for years. The combined effects of trade imbalances and fiscal challenges is a perfect storm of making alliances and agreement harder than before. Most developed countries are in the same boat - people under 35 have fewer prospects to grow net worth than their parents did, middle classes are squeezed, and demographic change means fewer children and a huge amount of social cost for the elderly in the future. Everyone in the G7 will be Japan if they are not careful.

But then all these issues are part of the problem that require an alliance?


That's very logical, but so is realpolitik. The pace of these problems is different in Italy than the UK, and different in the US than Germany. Governments will prioritize addressing their own citizens' concern on these issues over working on them together, unfortunately. At least they have so far. Look at how slowly things are moving on climate change, and that affects everyone with coastal cities.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:26 am

johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html

Suggestive title of a EU basher….. time to move on….
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:48 am

kelval wrote:
Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.


Don't forget, that the US had to deal with the likes of Chirac, Macron, Merkel, Schroeder, Juncker or Schulz for decades.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:04 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
kelval wrote:
Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.


Don't forget, that the US had to deal with the likes of Chirac, Macron, Merkel, Schroeder, Juncker or Schulz for decades.


If someone has issues with everyone else it is probably this someone that creates the issues.

the US even squandered the run of good will offers after 911.
some really get off on throwing stones from inside the glass house :-)
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14749
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:41 pm

I definitely think there should be a concerted "western" effort to counter China, and that has to start by being less dependant on it. Trump did it wrong, Biden might do it better, the problem is that now isn't the time : now it's COVID recovery time, and for that, cheap Chinese stuff is needed because there is no alternative.

Aside from that, thanks to Trump Europe has finally realized that it is much closer to the rest of the world, geographically, than to the Americas, which are oceans away in both direction, so "following the US" isn't really a good plan most of the time. Following the US in wars that happen close to us and far from the US, for example, is foolish.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 6006
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:44 pm

A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:49 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html

Suggestive title of a EU basher….. time to move on….
Uh, no!
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:57 pm

kelval wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


What is "most of Europe"?
This is a G7 meeting, wich means Germany, France and Italy for continental Europe. Those cannot speak in the name of the 24 other countries in Europe.
For example, we very well know that any Euro resolution that goes against China will be blocked by the likes of V. Orban in Hungary. At least that's how it went for the Uigurs's genocide case.

Define also "what it once was". When was Europe a diplomatics heavy weight ? Economically, we're quite big, but we've never been able to agree much on international politics. What were we "once", and when was that?

Seems your post is quite vague, and riding on the xxx society is in decline blah blah fingers pointing.
While I don't like China's actual politics, and try to reduce the impact of China's stuff in what I buy, I
am not interested in coming back to the frontal antagonism that the cold war was.

1. When it comes to people and GDP, Germany, France and Italy are "most of the EU".
2. Who cares if Hungary would block an EU resolution. With this being a G7 meeting, they could say what they wanted without worrying about it.
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".
4. Not finger pointing, just the facts that Europe isn't the economic and military powerhouse that it once was. Even if it was finger pointing, it's no different than the Euro reaction on here everytime there is a shooting in the US.
5. There's a big gap between not returning to the Cold War and remaining totally silent when a country is practicing genocide.
6. While I couldn't stand Trump, and didn't vote for him either time, I did agree that many EU countries need to increase their NATO spending, just not the way he said it. If they did, Putin would be a lot quieter and wouldn't be poisoning people in foreign countries with impunity.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:54 pm

kelval wrote:
Well yes. It can also be Seen as the start of a new negociation on what a common position can be.

Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.
Europe has probably well understood that the US can revert to an unfriendly stance in as little as 4 years. And that following blindly for years to get slapped in the face the next day isn't all that.

Disagreements can be productive if they result in New propositions/positions.
Let's be a little patient and see what comes out of this.

Thought the thread was about the EU and China.......leading up to the Gulf War the EU and European nations had already ceased blindly following the USA, so when did they rejoin the line?
 
Olddog
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:10 pm

The EU should never rejoin but act according to the EU interest only.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
kelval wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


What is "most of Europe"?
This is a G7 meeting, wich means Germany, France and Italy for continental Europe. Those cannot speak in the name of the 24 other countries in Europe.
For example, we very well know that any Euro resolution that goes against China will be blocked by the likes of V. Orban in Hungary. At least that's how it went for the Uigurs's genocide case.

Define also "what it once was". When was Europe a diplomatics heavy weight ? Economically, we're quite big, but we've never been able to agree much on international politics. What were we "once", and when was that?

Seems your post is quite vague, and riding on the xxx society is in decline blah blah fingers pointing.
While I don't like China's actual politics, and try to reduce the impact of China's stuff in what I buy, I
am not interested in coming back to the frontal antagonism that the cold war was.

1. When it comes to people and GDP, Germany, France and Italy are "most of the EU".
2. Who cares if Hungary would block an EU resolution. With this being a G7 meeting, they could say what they wanted without worrying about it.
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".
4. Not finger pointing, just the facts that Europe isn't the economic and military powerhouse that it once was. Even if it was finger pointing, it's no different than the Euro reaction on here everytime there is a shooting in the US.
5. There's a big gap between not returning to the Cold War and remaining totally silent when a country is practicing genocide.
6. While I couldn't stand Trump, and didn't vote for him either time, I did agree that many EU countries need to increase their NATO spending, just not the way he said it. If they did, Putin would be a lot quieter and wouldn't be poisoning people in foreign countries with impunity.

Very simplistic view and a tribute to your ignorance. Please go on!
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:27 pm

Olddog wrote:
The EU should never rejoin but act according to the EU interest only.
Now this is FUNNY! I thought all Western interests are the same? They are, when the shoe is on the other foot. Other than the Brits and French, who else from Europe really contributed to Desert Storm? You can't tell me that if Saddam had gotten away with Kuwait, that he wouldn't have gone into Saudi Arabia. That percentage of the world's oil supply controlled by Hussein wasn't in "Europe's interest"? The EU can't even take care of things that are in her interest. They couldn't end the Yugoslavian debacle without US help. They ran out of smart munitions when they tried to take care of little Libya by themselves. We're always there to bail them out. Yet, if they don't agree with something that we do, we're the big, bad bully. It's pathetic that Europe is afraid to take a hard line with Russia, who can't build a ship bigger than a frigate and can't get any new planes or tanks into series production. I've really enjoyed my vacations in Europe, but the "peace dividend" was over a decade ago. People need to wake up.
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:29 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
kelval wrote:

What is "most of Europe"?
This is a G7 meeting, wich means Germany, France and Italy for continental Europe. Those cannot speak in the name of the 24 other countries in Europe.
For example, we very well know that any Euro resolution that goes against China will be blocked by the likes of V. Orban in Hungary. At least that's how it went for the Uigurs's genocide case.

Define also "what it once was". When was Europe a diplomatics heavy weight ? Economically, we're quite big, but we've never been able to agree much on international politics. What were we "once", and when was that?

Seems your post is quite vague, and riding on the xxx society is in decline blah blah fingers pointing.
While I don't like China's actual politics, and try to reduce the impact of China's stuff in what I buy, I
am not interested in coming back to the frontal antagonism that the cold war was.

1. When it comes to people and GDP, Germany, France and Italy are "most of the EU".
2. Who cares if Hungary would block an EU resolution. With this being a G7 meeting, they could say what they wanted without worrying about it.
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".
4. Not finger pointing, just the facts that Europe isn't the economic and military powerhouse that it once was. Even if it was finger pointing, it's no different than the Euro reaction on here everytime there is a shooting in the US.
5. There's a big gap between not returning to the Cold War and remaining totally silent when a country is practicing genocide.
6. While I couldn't stand Trump, and didn't vote for him either time, I did agree that many EU countries need to increase their NATO spending, just not the way he said it. If they did, Putin would be a lot quieter and wouldn't be poisoning people in foreign countries with impunity.

Very simplistic view and a tribute to your ignorance. Please go on!
Then rebut it, all intelligent one! Simplistic is how Europe looks at the world "my foe isn't on my land border, so they don't exist".
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:36 pm

Olddog wrote:
The EU should never rejoin but act according to the EU interest only.

Which is what they have been doing prior to Trump, so that POTUS and his time in office has / had no effect on the European mindset about China, in fact since he was so anti-China the EU might have tried to balance the scales, who knows.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
1. When it comes to people and GDP, Germany, France and Italy are "most of the EU".
2. Who cares if Hungary would block an EU resolution. With this being a G7 meeting, they could say what they wanted without worrying about it.
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".
4. Not finger pointing, just the facts that Europe isn't the economic and military powerhouse that it once was. Even if it was finger pointing, it's no different than the Euro reaction on here everytime there is a shooting in the US.
5. There's a big gap between not returning to the Cold War and remaining totally silent when a country is practicing genocide.
6. While I couldn't stand Trump, and didn't vote for him either time, I did agree that many EU countries need to increase their NATO spending, just not the way he said it. If they did, Putin would be a lot quieter and wouldn't be poisoning people in foreign countries with impunity.

Very simplistic view and a tribute to your ignorance. Please go on!
Then rebut it, all intelligent one! Simplistic is how Europe looks at the world "my foe isn't on my land border, so they don't exist".

Please stop, you are making a fool of yourself
 
JJJ
Posts: 4111
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


There's quite a difference between jumping at the US command and being afraid of pissing off China.

Here's a much more nuanced view of the situation.

This was one of the worst weeks for China on the world stage in a while
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-w ... -g7-2021-6
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:22 pm

Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


I watched the first three minutes and it was about China "punishing" Norway over a Nobel peace prize. Which takes place in Sweden. The "punishment" to Norway? A Eurovision contestant could not perform in China, diplomatic ties were cut for six years, and salmon could not be sold in China.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:28 pm

johns624 wrote:
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".


UN Security Council??? Which country vetos more resolutions than anyone else?? Those rules should have been changed decades ago.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:35 pm

johns624 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The EU should never rejoin but act according to the EU interest only.
Now this is FUNNY! I thought all Western interests are the same? They are, when the shoe is on the other foot. Other than the Brits and French, who else from Europe really contributed to Desert Storm? You can't tell me that if Saddam had gotten away with Kuwait, that he wouldn't have gone into Saudi Arabia. That percentage of the world's oil supply controlled by Hussein wasn't in "Europe's interest"? The EU can't even take care of things that are in her interest. They couldn't end the Yugoslavian debacle without US help. They ran out of smart munitions when they tried to take care of little Libya by themselves. We're always there to bail them out. Yet, if they don't agree with something that we do, we're the big, bad bully. It's pathetic that Europe is afraid to take a hard line with Russia, who can't build a ship bigger than a frigate and can't get any new planes or tanks into series production. I've really enjoyed my vacations in Europe, but the "peace dividend" was over a decade ago. People need to wake up.


Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.


Out of curiosity, why can't we build those?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


I watched the first three minutes and it was about China "punishing" Norway over a Nobel peace prize. Which takes place in Sweden. The "punishment" to Norway? A Eurovision contestant could not perform in China, diplomatic ties were cut for six years, and salmon could not be sold in China.


Are you kidding me? The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by Norway not Sweden, the Peace Prize Committee is based in Norway, the committee is appointed by the Norwegian Government, the ceremony is held in the Oslo Town Hall.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.


Out of curiosity, why can't we build those?


They are highly advanced vessels, the US shipbuilding industry doesn’t have the technology to build them.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
kelval wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that most of Europe is afraid of pissing off the Chinese. I know it's slightly more complicated than that, but not much. Of course, the power of Europe isn't what it once was.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/internet-rep ... 36064.html


What is "most of Europe"?
This is a G7 meeting, wich means Germany, France and Italy for continental Europe. Those cannot speak in the name of the 24 other countries in Europe.
For example, we very well know that any Euro resolution that goes against China will be blocked by the likes of V. Orban in Hungary. At least that's how it went for the Uigurs's genocide case.

Define also "what it once was". When was Europe a diplomatics heavy weight ? Economically, we're quite big, but we've never been able to agree much on international politics. What were we "once", and when was that?

Seems your post is quite vague, and riding on the xxx society is in decline blah blah fingers pointing.
While I don't like China's actual politics, and try to reduce the impact of China's stuff in what I buy, I
am not interested in coming back to the frontal antagonism that the cold war was.

1. When it comes to people and GDP, Germany, France and Italy are "most of the EU".
2. Who cares if Hungary would block an EU resolution. With this being a G7 meeting, they could say what they wanted without worrying about it.
3. If one country can block a resolution, somebody wasn't thinking when they wrote up the "rules".
4. Not finger pointing, just the facts that Europe isn't the economic and military powerhouse that it once was. Even if it was finger pointing, it's no different than the Euro reaction on here everytime there is a shooting in the US.
5. There's a big gap between not returning to the Cold War and remaining totally silent when a country is practicing genocide.
6. While I couldn't stand Trump, and didn't vote for him either time, I did agree that many EU countries need to increase their NATO spending, just not the way he said it. If they did, Putin would be a lot quieter and wouldn't be poisoning people in foreign countries with impunity.


Please research the EU some more and its history as well as the history of the individual countries, then you might come to the correct observations and actually contribute something meaningful.

The US influence in the world is declining and I agree with Biden's statement that we, as democratic nations, should uphold those values and defend them if necessary. But as partners, the EU countries are looking at the US and its foreign policies quite differently. The US reaction after the attacks on September 11th, 2001 were not in line with the values of the EU and that did quite some damage to the trans-Atlantic relationship, Trump of course wasn't very helpful either. Good luck on your quest for more knowledge.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14749
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The EU should never rejoin but act according to the EU interest only.
Now this is FUNNY! I thought all Western interests are the same? They are, when the shoe is on the other foot. Other than the Brits and French, who else from Europe really contributed to Desert Storm? You can't tell me that if Saddam had gotten away with Kuwait, that he wouldn't have gone into Saudi Arabia. That percentage of the world's oil supply controlled by Hussein wasn't in "Europe's interest"? The EU can't even take care of things that are in her interest. They couldn't end the Yugoslavian debacle without US help. They ran out of smart munitions when they tried to take care of little Libya by themselves. We're always there to bail them out. Yet, if they don't agree with something that we do, we're the big, bad bully. It's pathetic that Europe is afraid to take a hard line with Russia, who can't build a ship bigger than a frigate and can't get any new planes or tanks into series production. I've really enjoyed my vacations in Europe, but the "peace dividend" was over a decade ago. People need to wake up.


Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.


But apparently they don't have engines for big warships. Engines for slow tankers are not suitable.
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Now this is FUNNY! I thought all Western interests are the same? They are, when the shoe is on the other foot. Other than the Brits and French, who else from Europe really contributed to Desert Storm? You can't tell me that if Saddam had gotten away with Kuwait, that he wouldn't have gone into Saudi Arabia. That percentage of the world's oil supply controlled by Hussein wasn't in "Europe's interest"? The EU can't even take care of things that are in her interest. They couldn't end the Yugoslavian debacle without US help. They ran out of smart munitions when they tried to take care of little Libya by themselves. We're always there to bail them out. Yet, if they don't agree with something that we do, we're the big, bad bully. It's pathetic that Europe is afraid to take a hard line with Russia, who can't build a ship bigger than a frigate and can't get any new planes or tanks into series production. I've really enjoyed my vacations in Europe, but the "peace dividend" was over a decade ago. People need to wake up.


Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.


But apparently they don't have engines for big warships. Engines for slow tankers are not suitable.
Precisely. I was speaking of naval vessels.
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:17 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Very simplistic view and a tribute to your ignorance. Please go on!
Then rebut it, all intelligent one! Simplistic is how Europe looks at the world "my foe isn't on my land border, so they don't exist".

Please stop, you are making a fool of yourself
Still waiting...
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:22 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


I watched the first three minutes and it was about China "punishing" Norway over a Nobel peace prize. Which takes place in Sweden. The "punishment" to Norway? A Eurovision contestant could not perform in China, diplomatic ties were cut for six years, and salmon could not be sold in China.


Are you kidding me? The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by Norway not Sweden, the Peace Prize Committee is based in Norway, the committee is appointed by the Norwegian Government, the ceremony is held in the Oslo Town Hall.
All the other Nobel Prizes are awarded in Stockholm, however.
 
johns624
Topic Author
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The US reaction after the attacks on September 11th, 2001 were not in line with the values of the EU and that did quite some damage to the trans-Atlantic relationship.
So what "values" does the EU have that are against us responding to an attack which killed thousands?
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:18 am

Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


That YouTube channel is a part of the “Falun Gong” cult. They’re a wacky racist Chinese UFO cult that is so out there they make Scientologists seem normal. They believe modern science and technology is an alien plot to destroy humanity, along with extraterrestrials encouraging race mixing to forment war on planet earth. That you can develop super powers like levitation if you follow Falun Gong practices.

Other media sources connected to this cult are New Tang Dynasty TV and the Epoch Times. Those media organisations were some of the biggest donors to the Trump campaign and have promoted Election Fraud conspiracies, along with a whole host of other far right conspiracies like QAnon, Covid denial and anti-Vaxxing.

And as other posters have pointed out they can’t get basic facts right. Here’s a good video showing the truth behind that YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_x15Cmhgb70
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5727
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:09 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


That YouTube channel is a part of the “Falun Gong” cult. They’re a wacky racist Chinese UFO cult that is so out there they make Scientologists seem normal. They believe modern science and technology is an alien plot to destroy humanity, along with extraterrestrials encouraging race mixing to forment war on planet earth. That you can develop super powers like levitation if you follow Falun Gong practices.

Other media sources connected to this cult are New Tang Dynasty TV and the Epoch Times. Those media organisations were some of the biggest donors to the Trump campaign and have promoted Election Fraud conspiracies, along with a whole host of other far right conspiracies like QAnon, Covid denial and anti-Vaxxing.

And as other posters have pointed out they can’t get basic facts right. Here’s a good video showing the truth behind that YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_x15Cmhgb70

They stepped on you? Yes they are cult with insane believe, doesn't mean everything they said are wrong
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:11 am

c933103 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
A video from 2018

5 Countries Punished for Angering China

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2QoCrnuGko


That YouTube channel is a part of the “Falun Gong” cult. They’re a wacky racist Chinese UFO cult that is so out there they make Scientologists seem normal. They believe modern science and technology is an alien plot to destroy humanity, along with extraterrestrials encouraging race mixing to forment war on planet earth. That you can develop super powers like levitation if you follow Falun Gong practices.

Other media sources connected to this cult are New Tang Dynasty TV and the Epoch Times. Those media organisations were some of the biggest donors to the Trump campaign and have promoted Election Fraud conspiracies, along with a whole host of other far right conspiracies like QAnon, Covid denial and anti-Vaxxing.

And as other posters have pointed out they can’t get basic facts right. Here’s a good video showing the truth behind that YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_x15Cmhgb70

They stepped on you? Yes they are cult with insane believe, doesn't mean everything they said are wrong


They are involved with a lot of misinformation, including supporting Trump conspiracies enthusiastically the last few years. Their credibility is the problem. For that point, it is necessary to choose a better messenger.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5727
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

That YouTube channel is a part of the “Falun Gong” cult. They’re a wacky racist Chinese UFO cult that is so out there they make Scientologists seem normal. They believe modern science and technology is an alien plot to destroy humanity, along with extraterrestrials encouraging race mixing to forment war on planet earth. That you can develop super powers like levitation if you follow Falun Gong practices.

Other media sources connected to this cult are New Tang Dynasty TV and the Epoch Times. Those media organisations were some of the biggest donors to the Trump campaign and have promoted Election Fraud conspiracies, along with a whole host of other far right conspiracies like QAnon, Covid denial and anti-Vaxxing.

And as other posters have pointed out they can’t get basic facts right. Here’s a good video showing the truth behind that YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_x15Cmhgb70

They stepped on you? Yes they are cult with insane believe, doesn't mean everything they said are wrong


They are involved with a lot of misinformation, including supporting Trump conspiracies enthusiastically the last few years. Their credibility is the problem. For that point, it is necessary to choose a better messenger.

I wouldn't deny they have credibility problem. Yet such cult force of religion is why they can continue sustaining itself and its followers operating against the Chinese government even inside Mainland China over the past quartercentury, and thus become the most major channel for information transmission against the Chinese government from inside the country that would otherwise not be known. Other more regular source of people opposing the party/government have long been squashed.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:29 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
They stepped on you? Yes they are cult with insane believe, doesn't mean everything they said are wrong


They are involved with a lot of misinformation, including supporting Trump conspiracies enthusiastically the last few years. Their credibility is the problem. For that point, it is necessary to choose a better messenger.

I wouldn't deny they have credibility problem. Yet such cult force of religion is why they can continue sustaining itself and its followers operating against the Chinese government even inside Mainland China over the past quartercentury, and thus become the most major channel for information transmission against the Chinese government from inside the country that would otherwise not be known. Other more regular source of people opposing the party/government have long been squashed.


In that case, they should make sure key information is handled by more reputable organizations like Amnesty or HRW. PRC is unable to quash such organizations or their activities once information has passed to their hands.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 5727
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

They are involved with a lot of misinformation, including supporting Trump conspiracies enthusiastically the last few years. Their credibility is the problem. For that point, it is necessary to choose a better messenger.

I wouldn't deny they have credibility problem. Yet such cult force of religion is why they can continue sustaining itself and its followers operating against the Chinese government even inside Mainland China over the past quartercentury, and thus become the most major channel for information transmission against the Chinese government from inside the country that would otherwise not be known. Other more regular source of people opposing the party/government have long been squashed.


In that case, they should make sure key information is handled by more reputable organizations like Amnesty or HRW. PRC is unable to quash such organizations or their activities once information has passed to their hands.

They probably already do? But those organization have different priority and different focus and are thus not using the same method to transmit message they received and confirmed
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15996
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:59 am

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I wouldn't deny they have credibility problem. Yet such cult force of religion is why they can continue sustaining itself and its followers operating against the Chinese government even inside Mainland China over the past quartercentury, and thus become the most major channel for information transmission against the Chinese government from inside the country that would otherwise not be known. Other more regular source of people opposing the party/government have long been squashed.


In that case, they should make sure key information is handled by more reputable organizations like Amnesty or HRW. PRC is unable to quash such organizations or their activities once information has passed to their hands.

They probably already do? But those organization have different priority and different focus and are thus not using the same method to transmit message they received and confirmed


They certainly don't use ridiculous 'news' outlets like Epoch Times, yes.

Different priority and focus is mostly irrelevant - I first became aware of PRC human rights problems thanks to Amnesty events on my university campus in the late 90s. These organizations are consistently and prominently focused on China.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/as ... fic/china/

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/c ... -and-tibet
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:47 am

johns624 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The US reaction after the attacks on September 11th, 2001 were not in line with the values of the EU and that did quite some damage to the trans-Atlantic relationship.
So what "values" does the EU have that are against us responding to an attack which killed thousands?


The response of all NATO countries was one of unity, the first and only time article 5 was triggered. So invading Afghanistan was in accordance with international law. Then the Bush jr administration pushed for invading Iraq, which was a clear violation of international law. Upholding international law is one of the values of the EU. The. EU countries were quite outspoken about this and thus refused to participate. The US didn't listen and moved ahead anyway.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:54 am

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I watched the first three minutes and it was about China "punishing" Norway over a Nobel peace prize. Which takes place in Sweden. The "punishment" to Norway? A Eurovision contestant could not perform in China, diplomatic ties were cut for six years, and salmon could not be sold in China.


Are you kidding me? The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by Norway not Sweden, the Peace Prize Committee is based in Norway, the committee is appointed by the Norwegian Government, the ceremony is held in the Oslo Town Hall.


All the other Nobel Prizes are awarded in Stockholm, however.


Yes, they are, but we were talking about the Chinese reaction to awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to Liu Xiaobo in 2010. And that one is awarded in Norway.
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:58 am

par13del wrote:
kelval wrote:
Well yes. It can also be Seen as the start of a new negociation on what a common position can be.

Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.
Europe has probably well understood that the US can revert to an unfriendly stance in as little as 4 years. And that following blindly for years to get slapped in the face the next day isn't all that.

Disagreements can be productive if they result in New propositions/positions.
Let's be a little patient and see what comes out of this.

Thought the thread was about the EU and China.......leading up to the Gulf War the EU and European nations had already ceased blindly following the USA, so when did they rejoin the line?

Did you even read the first link?
This is all about relationships between USA and Europe, on the responses to give to China's behaviour.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:02 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Now this is FUNNY! I thought all Western interests are the same? They are, when the shoe is on the other foot. Other than the Brits and French, who else from Europe really contributed to Desert Storm? You can't tell me that if Saddam had gotten away with Kuwait, that he wouldn't have gone into Saudi Arabia. That percentage of the world's oil supply controlled by Hussein wasn't in "Europe's interest"? The EU can't even take care of things that are in her interest. They couldn't end the Yugoslavian debacle without US help. They ran out of smart munitions when they tried to take care of little Libya by themselves. We're always there to bail them out. Yet, if they don't agree with something that we do, we're the big, bad bully. It's pathetic that Europe is afraid to take a hard line with Russia, who can't build a ship bigger than a frigate and can't get any new planes or tanks into series production. I've really enjoyed my vacations in Europe, but the "peace dividend" was over a decade ago. People need to wake up.


Russia can build ships bigger than a frigate, Zevezda Shipyard could build supertankers if they wanted to, they are building ARC7 LNG carriers are the moment, the US can’t build those btw.


But apparently they don't have engines for big warships. Engines for slow tankers are not suitable.


But they do, the Project 22350 frigates are using Russian highspeed diesels and gas turbines, the new Ivan Gren Glass vessels are also using domestic power plants, if they do build a new CV it will be a CVN and they know how to built nuclear reactors.

The USN is now using French SEMT Pielstick diesels and British Rolls Royce MT30 gas turbines, replacing domestic designs.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13633
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:04 am

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I watched the first three minutes and it was about China "punishing" Norway over a Nobel peace prize. Which takes place in Sweden. The "punishment" to Norway? A Eurovision contestant could not perform in China, diplomatic ties were cut for six years, and salmon could not be sold in China.


Are you kidding me? The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by Norway not Sweden, the Peace Prize Committee is based in Norway, the committee is appointed by the Norwegian Government, the ceremony is held in the Oslo Town Hall.
All the other Nobel Prizes are awarded in Stockholm, however.


The vast majority of people don't care about the other prizes, the Peace Prize is the big one, it's the most important.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU Won't Call Out China On Rights Abuses

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:09 am

kelval wrote:
par13del wrote:
kelval wrote:
Well yes. It can also be Seen as the start of a new negociation on what a common position can be.

Trump's years in power have been incredibly destructive for the relationships with Europe, that in return isn't that willing to follow USA blindly for a little bit of room under the umbrella any more.
Europe has probably well understood that the US can revert to an unfriendly stance in as little as 4 years. And that following blindly for years to get slapped in the face the next day isn't all that.

Disagreements can be productive if they result in New propositions/positions.
Let's be a little patient and see what comes out of this.

Thought the thread was about the EU and China.......leading up to the Gulf War the EU and European nations had already ceased blindly following the USA, so when did they rejoin the line?

Did you even read the first link?
This is all about relationships between USA and Europe, on the responses to give to China's behaviour.


Yes and the difference in the vision of moving ahead in the relationship between China and the west, from the article: "President Emmanuel Macron of France did raise the alarm last week, warning Washington that Europe did not follow Biden’s apparent desire to “return to [the logic] of the Cold War” with China cast as the West’s new foe."

The premise of the OP was quite wrong. Such huge generalization will lead to polarization on this forum, as you have witnessed, especially when based on some incorrect assumptions.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, blrBird, LifelinerOne, TheF15Ace and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos