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Aaron747
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Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:29 am

The plaintiff in the suit against Houston Methodist, has been a minor celebrity on conservative TV in recent weeks, receiving many accolades for taking on her employer (and the COVID vaccines). A federal judge in Houston struck down her lawsuit and attempt at temporary restraining order to prevent the hospital from enforcing suspension without pay if employees fail to meet their vaccination deadline.

https://www.cbs46.com/judge-rules-in-fa ... 9.amp.html

My question to the plaintiff nurse this whole time has been: what are you doing in healthcare if you don’t believe in science or threat mitigation?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:26 am

Fair use excepts from your source:

"ruled against Jennifer Bridges and 116 of her fellow Houston Methodist coworkers" - still a small proportion of their overall staff (0.5%) but 116 medical professionals that don't trust medical professionals.

"Bridges' analogy that her threat of termination in this case was like "forced medical experimentation during the Holocaust." - yes of course it is just like the holocaust. The case should have been deemed frivolous for this statement alone.

"What is shocking is that many of my clients were on the front line treating COVID-positive patients at Texas Methodist Hospital during the height of the pandemic" - yes, it's shocking that even after having seeing first hand the results COVID can have on a human they still don't want to take the vaccine.
 
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c933103
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:50 am

Well it have only been two hundred years or so that healthcare merges with science and there are still more than necessary amount of premodern care methods surviving into current time. Maybe some still inherit such sort of thought from old time.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:02 am

c933103 wrote:
Well it have only been two hundred years or so that healthcare merges with science and there are still more than necessary amount of premodern care methods surviving into current time. Maybe some still inherit such sort of thought from old time.


Nursing programs in the US are pretty difficult to complete. The first year dropout rate is around 20%. The system is supposed to weed out people with such thinking, but obviously some people may change (for the worse) over time.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:59 am

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Well it have only been two hundred years or so that healthcare merges with science and there are still more than necessary amount of premodern care methods surviving into current time. Maybe some still inherit such sort of thought from old time.


Nursing programs in the US are pretty difficult to complete. The first year dropout rate is around 20%. The system is supposed to weed out people with such thinking, but obviously some people may change (for the worse) over time.

The link does not work in the Netherlands, but are these really medical staff?
Could the people that filed the lawsuit be support staff? Administration, janitors, catering etc.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:21 am

petertenthije wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Well it have only been two hundred years or so that healthcare merges with science and there are still more than necessary amount of premodern care methods surviving into current time. Maybe some still inherit such sort of thought from old time.


Nursing programs in the US are pretty difficult to complete. The first year dropout rate is around 20%. The system is supposed to weed out people with such thinking, but obviously some people may change (for the worse) over time.

The link does not work in the Netherlands, but are these really medical staff?
Could the people that filed the lawsuit be support staff? Administration, janitors, catering etc.


The lead plaintiff was a nurse. The involved employees in the lawsuit were both medical and administrative staff.
 
vrbarreto
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:56 am

Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Nursing programs in the US are pretty difficult to complete. The first year dropout rate is around 20%. The system is supposed to weed out people with such thinking, but obviously some people may change (for the worse) over time.

The link does not work in the Netherlands, but are these really medical staff?
Could the people that filed the lawsuit be support staff? Administration, janitors, catering etc.


The lead plaintiff was a nurse. The involved employees in the lawsuit were both medical and administrative staff.


Is there no sort of professional body to deal with medical professionals peddling false information?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1402646586379878409

Like the above for example..
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:
My question to the plaintiff nurse this whole time has been: what are you doing in healthcare if you don’t believe in science or threat mitigation?


You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:51 am

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
My question to the plaintiff nurse this whole time has been: what are you doing in healthcare if you don’t believe in science or threat mitigation?


You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated


Wich would be 10~30% above the vaccination rates in the general public a month ago, ~46%. Interesting would be the status today with walk in availability for everyone.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:58 am

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
My question to the plaintiff nurse this whole time has been: what are you doing in healthcare if you don’t believe in science or threat mitigation?


You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated


Irrelevant if the data is a month old. And NIH/CDC employees are not frontline serving patients in a clinical facility. Is there any issue that doesn't get this brand of whataboutism?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:00 pm

vrbarreto wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The link does not work in the Netherlands, but are these really medical staff?
Could the people that filed the lawsuit be support staff? Administration, janitors, catering etc.


The lead plaintiff was a nurse. The involved employees in the lawsuit were both medical and administrative staff.


Is there no sort of professional body to deal with medical professionals peddling false information?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1402646586379878409

Like the above for example..


Nurses have their own regulatory bodies in every state. As for the nutty D.O. who gave the presentation about magnetic vaccines, I'm sure she has been reported before, but Osteopathic boards are known for being more lenient than the ones regulating MDs.
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
My question to the plaintiff nurse this whole time has been: what are you doing in healthcare if you don’t believe in science or threat mitigation?


You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated


Irrelevant if the data is a month old. And NIH/CDC employees are not frontline serving patients in a clinical facility. Is there any issue that doesn't get this brand of whataboutism?


Hospital administrative staff aren't front line employees either and more importantly the question you asked is more relevant to these public health organizations. Why would you work at the CDC if you don't believe in "threat mitigation" from a contagious disease. The name of their employer is completely synonymous with your term after all.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:27 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:

You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated


Irrelevant if the data is a month old. And NIH/CDC employees are not frontline serving patients in a clinical facility. Is there any issue that doesn't get this brand of whataboutism?


Hospital administrative staff aren't front line employees either and more importantly the question you asked is more relevant to these public health organizations.


Do they or do they not work in the complex patients and their families also utilize? End of story. Not necessary to pollute the thread if you think this imbecile was in the right to sue - just say so.
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Do they or do they not work in the complex patients and their families also utilize? End of story. Not necessary to pollute the thread if you think this imbecile was in the right to sue - just say so.

The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine. If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter. I have mixed feelings about it if she isn't antibody positive though. On one hand if her job is to dispense pharmaceutical drugs with toxic side effects (which many of them have) and she doesn't mind doing that, then she shouldn't have an issue taking them herself too, including the covid vaccine. IMO it was more important for her to take the vaccine when others couldn't (if she were antibody negative.) I am less concerned with her spreading it to those who choose not to get vaccinated or protect themselves than with those who couldn't.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:58 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Do they or do they not work in the complex patients and their families also utilize? End of story. Not necessary to pollute the thread if you think this imbecile was in the right to sue - just say so.

The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine. If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter. I have mixed feelings about it if she isn't antibody positive though. On one hand if her job is to dispense pharmaceutical drugs with toxic side effects (which many of them have) and she doesn't mind doing that, then she shouldn't have an issue taking them herself too, including the covid vaccine. IMO it was more important for her to take the vaccine when others couldn't (if she were antibody negative.) I am less concerned with her spreading it to those who choose not to get vaccinated or protect themselves than with those who couldn't.


Those issues would likely have come up if she had requested a medical waiver. But no, she sued on the basis of the vaccine being 'experimental' and that the hospital was 'forcing' employees to be guinea pigs. Patently false, and that's why the judge ruled the suit frivolous.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:59 pm

afcjets wrote:
If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter.


The 'science in this matter' says that there is nothing wrong with taking the vaccine even if you already have antibodies, as long as the doses are administered a certain period of time after having been infected.

The 'science in this matter' also says that immune protection from the vaccine tends to be stronger than the one from natural exposure.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:08 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The 'science in this matter' also says that immune protection from the vaccine tends to be stronger than the one from natural exposure.


That "was" the prevailing opinion, "science in this matter" actually differs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOf6Cj3T-8
Read the description, has several links to actual studies.
 
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:12 pm

afcjets wrote:
Hospital administrative staff aren't front line employees either and more importantly the question you asked is more relevant to these public health organizations.


But they're working in an environment full of vulnerable people. They should be protected to help protect the hospital's patients. It's really not difficult to understand.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The 'science in this matter' also says that immune protection from the vaccine tends to be stronger than the one from natural exposure.


That "was" the prevailing opinion, "science in this matter" actually differs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOf6Cj3T-8
Read the description, has several links to actual studies.


from the description:

People who were infected and get vaccinated really have a terrific response, a terrific set of antibodies, because they continue to evolve their antibodies


best regards
Thomas
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Hospital administrative staff aren't front line employees either and more importantly the question you asked is more relevant to these public health organizations.


But they're working in an environment full of vulnerable people. They should be protected to help protect the hospital's patients. It's really not difficult to understand.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, however large hospitals often have satellite locations for things like medical records, call centers, etc., especially in urban areas where real estate is either expensive or unavailable.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:45 pm

I like that they lost this lawsuit. However it opens up a lot of eyes as to how ignorant and dangerous misinformation is. It highlights how tough it in this country when you have such a large swath of the population indoctrinated into believing science isn't real anymore.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:46 pm

This is the best news to come out of Texas in a while!!! Glad the judge made the science and fact based choice. People who are scared of the vaccine can stay home. All employers should mandate the vaccine. It is sad we have people falling for anti science propaganda. The pandemic and Trump Presidency shows we need to put more effort into education as we are failing to create adults who have critical thinking skills.
Last edited by Pi7472000 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

That "was" the prevailing opinion, "science in this matter" actually differs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOf6Cj3T-8
Read the description, has several links to actual studies.


The prevailing opinion is almost always the convenient one and often wrong IMO, especially in the early stages.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm

afcjets wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That "was" the prevailing opinion, "science in this matter" actually differs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOf6Cj3T-8
Read the description, has several links to actual studies.


The prevailing opinion is almost always the convenient one and often wrong IMO, especially in the early stages.


'Wrong' is the wrong word - data changes, and good professionals therefore change narratives and advice based on changing information.
 
luckyone
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:39 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Do they or do they not work in the complex patients and their families also utilize? End of story. Not necessary to pollute the thread if you think this imbecile was in the right to sue - just say so.

The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine. If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter. I have mixed feelings about it if she isn't antibody positive though. On one hand if her job is to dispense pharmaceutical drugs with toxic side effects (which many of them have) and she doesn't mind doing that, then she shouldn't have an issue taking them herself too, including the covid vaccine. IMO it was more important for her to take the vaccine when others couldn't (if she were antibody negative.) I am less concerned with her spreading it to those who choose not to get vaccinated or protect themselves than with those who couldn't.

Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:44 pm

I just had an endoscopy in a Massachusetts hospital, neither RN who worked my procedure had been vaccinated and seemed very reluctant.
 
alfa164
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
I like that they lost this lawsuit. However it opens up a lot of eyes as to how ignorant and dangerous misinformation is. It highlights how tough it in this country when you have such a large swath of the population indoctrinated into believing science isn't real anymore.


"Ignorant and dangerous" is really an understatement; if you read the link to the Ohio Capital Journal article, these people are totally deranged. Unhinged. Non compos mentis. Often, as the video shows, to a hilarious degree... if this were a subject that lended itself to hilarity.


https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2021/06/ ... cine-bill/
 
afcjets
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:21 pm

luckyone wrote:
Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.


You have firsthand experience treating covid patients (which is more than Fauci can say), while some NIH and CDC employees are privy to inside information, based on their positions.
 
wingman
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:28 pm

it's interesting, and scary, to read posts from members of this newly formed group of 70M people that think science is fake and scientists all have some secret agenda, and no longer fear the public badge of ignorance for saying so. The utter mindlessness of QANON is right here in the forums. Fascinating!
 
luckyone
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:31 pm

afcjets wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.


You have firsthand experience treating covid patients (which is more than Fauci can say), while some NIH and CDC employees are privy to inside information, based on their positions.

Which is not the argument you made.
 
pune
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
I like that they lost this lawsuit. However it opens up a lot of eyes as to how ignorant and dangerous misinformation is. It highlights how tough it in this country when you have such a large swath of the population indoctrinated into believing science isn't real anymore.


This isn't just in the U.S. It is also in Germany and elsewhere. Just couple of weeks back, I was seeing a youtube documentary from DW on this specific subject. It immediately got censored and privatized but thankfully meanwhile, other people put it up -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBPmnYkSwpM
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:09 pm

pune wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I like that they lost this lawsuit. However it opens up a lot of eyes as to how ignorant and dangerous misinformation is. It highlights how tough it in this country when you have such a large swath of the population indoctrinated into believing science isn't real anymore.


This isn't just in the U.S. It is also in Germany and elsewhere. Just couple of weeks back, I was seeing a youtube documentary from DW on this specific subject. It immediately got censored


It wasn't censored, DW, like all public broadcasting in Germany, has (genre specific) time limits on how long they can keep content available online, since they have no mandate for producing a streaming service.

Best regards
Thomaa
 
StarAC17
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:22 pm

luckyone wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Do they or do they not work in the complex patients and their families also utilize? End of story. Not necessary to pollute the thread if you think this imbecile was in the right to sue - just say so.

The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine. If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter. I have mixed feelings about it if she isn't antibody positive though. On one hand if her job is to dispense pharmaceutical drugs with toxic side effects (which many of them have) and she doesn't mind doing that, then she shouldn't have an issue taking them herself too, including the covid vaccine. IMO it was more important for her to take the vaccine when others couldn't (if she were antibody negative.) I am less concerned with her spreading it to those who choose not to get vaccinated or protect themselves than with those who couldn't.

Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.


IIRC the immune system uses 15 to 20 different antibodies to inhibit a spike protein which is why there is high protection from vaccines against the variants from vaccines and even natural infection. Even with the VOC's its not an entirely new spike that the immune system won't be able to pick up at all. We haven't had any boosters that actually have targeted any of the variants of VOC's any the mRNA vaccines work really well.

Furthermore little to no antibodies does not mean that someone isn't immune. Cell-mediated immunity uses T-cells and memory B-cells to recognize covid much quicker and deploy antibodies again to attack Covid should someone encounter it again. Often this happens without you getting sick again.

Coronaviruses seem to inhibit the memory response from natural infection but the vaccines create a very strong memory response to give longer lasting immunity. Even so the endemic coronaviruses only cause the common cold without any vaccines and they circulate seasonally.

Repeated infections will only make any immunity more robust so we actually want this virus to become endemic. The natural generations of viral particles will be severely reduced because the body will pick it up faster reducing viral load as more and more people get exposed or vaccinated. Any mutations will be handled by our immune systems.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577- ... e%20memory.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20201 ... tcome.aspx
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:41 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:

You should ask NIH and CDC employees too.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/ ... vaccinated


Irrelevant if the data is a month old. And NIH/CDC employees are not frontline serving patients in a clinical facility. Is there any issue that doesn't get this brand of whataboutism?


Hospital administrative staff aren't front line employees either and more importantly the question you asked is more relevant to these public health organizations. Why would you work at the CDC if you don't believe in "threat mitigation" from a contagious disease. The name of their employer is completely synonymous with your term after all.


Some of us (I'm working at an emergency clinic) are for sure while others are not as much. Point is that you can't generalise the way you do.
Staff at Region HQ is probably at that much at risk since there are not patients in their office building but as at the emergency clinic is/was definitelyat risk.

Personally I'm already vaccinated (got 1st dose at end of February and second dose at end of May) and all of my colleagues (both nurses, doctors
and administrative staff) was offered vaccine already in February. I don't how many accepted but I think a large majority accepted.
 
luckyone
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:55 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
afcjets wrote:
The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine. If this nurse is already antibody positive for covid I absolutely think she has the right to sue, because her hospital (to borrow your phrase in the opening post) doesn't believe in science in this matter. I have mixed feelings about it if she isn't antibody positive though. On one hand if her job is to dispense pharmaceutical drugs with toxic side effects (which many of them have) and she doesn't mind doing that, then she shouldn't have an issue taking them herself too, including the covid vaccine. IMO it was more important for her to take the vaccine when others couldn't (if she were antibody negative.) I am less concerned with her spreading it to those who choose not to get vaccinated or protect themselves than with those who couldn't.

Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.


IIRC the immune system uses 15 to 20 different antibodies to inhibit a spike protein which is why there is high protection from vaccines against the variants from vaccines and even natural infection. Even with the VOC's its not an entirely new spike that the immune system won't be able to pick up at all. We haven't had any boosters that actually have targeted any of the variants of VOC's any the mRNA vaccines work really well.

Furthermore little to no antibodies does not mean that someone isn't immune. Cell-mediated immunity uses T-cells and memory B-cells to recognize covid much quicker and deploy antibodies again to attack Covid should someone encounter it again. Often this happens without you getting sick again.

Correct except the natural immune response is less robust with a variant.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
That "was" the prevailing opinion, "science in this matter" actually differs.

If you can show me a juried, peer-reviewed article that demonstrates this, then yes.
 
pune
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
pune wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I like that they lost this lawsuit. However it opens up a lot of eyes as to how ignorant and dangerous misinformation is. It highlights how tough it in this country when you have such a large swath of the population indoctrinated into believing science isn't real anymore.


This isn't just in the U.S. It is also in Germany and elsewhere. Just couple of weeks back, I was seeing a youtube documentary from DW on this specific subject. It immediately got censored


It wasn't censored, DW, like all public broadcasting in Germany, has (genre specific) time limits on how long they can keep content available online, since they have no mandate for producing a streaming service.

Best regards
Thomaa


tommy, the documentary I shared was hardly a month old, actually even less than that. Now the oldest on that same site is 6 years old. So any logic between 1 month and 6 years ??? Sharing the oldest documentary from DW documentary on YT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKtm-6ehxG8
 
StarAC17
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:44 am

luckyone wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Aside from the fact that such a discussion is hypothetical in this specific situation, antibodies would likely only protect her against the variant which she had contracted, and would not provide the same efficacy against other variants that are still circulating in the community. As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information. Medical staff who have reluctance to take the vaccine are no different than non medical staff in the community, their concerns are their concerns, and many of them are rooted in anxiety rather than evidence.


IIRC the immune system uses 15 to 20 different antibodies to inhibit a spike protein which is why there is high protection from vaccines against the variants from vaccines and even natural infection. Even with the VOC's its not an entirely new spike that the immune system won't be able to pick up at all. We haven't had any boosters that actually have targeted any of the variants of VOC's any the mRNA vaccines work really well.

Furthermore little to no antibodies does not mean that someone isn't immune. Cell-mediated immunity uses T-cells and memory B-cells to recognize covid much quicker and deploy antibodies again to attack Covid should someone encounter it again. Often this happens without you getting sick again.

Correct except the natural immune response is less robust with a variant.


Regarding these mutations, they are minor changes to what is the same virus. The genetic similarities are probably something like 99.8% the same as the original Covid. This is simply Natural selection being observed. We are not fighting 3-4 different viruses here. These random mutations in Covid are simply the successful ones. The beingn or destructive ones don't get attention but they happen as well.

A real life example is the polar bear vs the brown grizzly bear. They are genetically basically identical the polar bear has a mutation where it's white fur makes it a dominant hunter in the arctic as it can camuflauge in the snow.

The immune response to clear a variant vs the initial strain of Covid out of your body is pretty robust. Considering there is evidence now that the UK variant is not more virulent and deadly. It was originally thought to be but as wave 3 has subsided it appears that the variants are more contagious but not any more deadly.

Once the body is aware of the threat it gets rid of it in pretty efficient manner. Perhaps too well because much of the suffering is likely pointed at Cytokine storms where the immune system starts attaching healthy tissue.

Doc can probably explain this better as I got a lot of this information from him and what he posts. It seems that Coronaviruses in general do something to the immune system that inhibits a strong memory response to reinfection over say 2-5 years. You won't necessarily have it bad the next time but your defenses aren't as robust. I don't think this is completely understood.

With vaccines your body is only being exposed to the spike protein without the memory inhibiting elements of Covid19. And a strong cell mediated response can be detected.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:58 am

pune wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
pune wrote:

This isn't just in the U.S. It is also in Germany and elsewhere. Just couple of weeks back, I was seeing a youtube documentary from DW on this specific subject. It immediately got censored


It wasn't censored, DW, like all public broadcasting in Germany, has (genre specific) time limits on how long they can keep content available online, since they have no mandate for producing a streaming service.

Best regards
Thomaa


tommy, the documentary I shared was hardly a month old, actually even less than that. Now the oldest on that same site is 6 years old. So any logic between 1 month and 6 years ??? Sharing the oldest documentary from DW documentary on YT.


Since it is a result of intensive lobbying there isn´t much logic involved and goes from not at all, 24 hours to forever with a few intermediate steps, some with, some without geo-blocking, depending on content and license. But this thread isn´t about public broadcasting...

best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:45 am

Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.
 
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Aaron747
Topic Author
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:54 am

seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


The court and Texas law disagree. Oh well. Also the ability of healthcare employers to require inoculation goes back to a 1905 Supreme Court case, so there is longstanding precedent.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:20 am

I don't think forcing people to have a vaccine is a crime (as long as it is thoroughly tested), however this isn't what's happening anyway. People are free to not take the vaccine, there are consequences for their job, that's all.
 
art
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:29 am

seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


In this instance people are not being forced to take a vaccine. A medical faculty is acknowledging that the threat posed by SARS-coronavirus-2 can be mitigated by vaccination (the data to support this view are overwhemling) ergo if you want to work there you are obliged to mitigate threat you pose.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


The court and Texas law disagree. Oh well. Also the ability of healthcare employers to require inoculation goes back to a 1905 Supreme Court case, so there is longstanding precedent.


And as Seahawk very probably is aware, in his and my home-country even a blanket mandatory vaccination would be absolutely legal and constitutional.

best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 am

art wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


In this instance people are not being forced to take a vaccine. A medical faculty is acknowledging that the threat posed by SARS-coronavirus-2 can be mitigated by vaccination (the data to support this view are overwhemling) ergo if you want to work there you are obliged to mitigate threat you pose.


Imho at the current point, the risk to benefit analysis still must consider individual elements like age, gender, body weight, available vaccines, general health status and so on. Forcing a healthy female in the early 20ies to take AZ for example, is not acceptable imho.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:57 am

seahawk wrote:
art wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


In this instance people are not being forced to take a vaccine. A medical faculty is acknowledging that the threat posed by SARS-coronavirus-2 can be mitigated by vaccination (the data to support this view are overwhemling) ergo if you want to work there you are obliged to mitigate threat you pose.


Imho at the current point, the risk to benefit analysis still must consider individual elements like age, gender, body weight, available vaccines, general health status and so on. Forcing a healthy female in the early 20ies to take AZ for example, is not acceptable imho.


The US doesn't have the preventive care infrastructure in place to have all the data you mention available on call to employers or anyone else.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:11 am

seahawk wrote:
art wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


In this instance people are not being forced to take a vaccine. A medical faculty is acknowledging that the threat posed by SARS-coronavirus-2 can be mitigated by vaccination (the data to support this view are overwhemling) ergo if you want to work there you are obliged to mitigate threat you pose.


Imho at the current point, the risk to benefit analysis still must consider individual elements like age, gender, body weight, available vaccines, general health status and so on. Forcing a healthy female in the early 20ies to take AZ for example, is not acceptable imho.


That healthy female can still contaminate everyone in the hospital, that's the point.

If she's not working there, she can do as she pleases.
 
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seahawk
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Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:16 am

Aesma wrote:
seahawk wrote:
art wrote:

In this instance people are not being forced to take a vaccine. A medical faculty is acknowledging that the threat posed by SARS-coronavirus-2 can be mitigated by vaccination (the data to support this view are overwhemling) ergo if you want to work there you are obliged to mitigate threat you pose.


Imho at the current point, the risk to benefit analysis still must consider individual elements like age, gender, body weight, available vaccines, general health status and so on. Forcing a healthy female in the early 20ies to take AZ for example, is not acceptable imho.


That healthy female can still contaminate everyone in the hospital, that's the point.

If she's not working there, she can do as she pleases.


And vaccinated people can also still infect others, often without knowing, as depending on the vaccine the protection against an infection is as low as 66%.

Not that I agree with the Texas lawsuit, it was completely out of bounds.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22230
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Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:35 am

seahawk wrote:
Forcing people to take the vaccine is a crime imho.


Nobody is being forced to do anything. They can make a choice. 1) Get the vaccine 2) Get a different job.

Methodist is the hospital where everyone wants to work. Good culture. Good pay. Good resources for patient care. You don't have a fundamental right to work there (or anywhere, really). If you want to work in healthcare but don't want to get vaccinated, then go find somewhere else.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3832
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Lawsuit Against Houston Hospital Mandating Vaccine for Employees Fails

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:47 am

luckyone wrote:
afcjets wrote:
The point which you're upset about is a significant number of people who work in the healthcare industry and disease control and have firsthand and/or inside information are concerned about the vaccine.

As for "first hand/inside information about the vaccine," as medical staff I can assure that medical staff don't have some super secret inside information.


luckyone wrote:
afcjets wrote:

You have firsthand experience treating covid patients (which is more than Fauci can say), while some NIH and CDC employees are privy to inside information, based on their positions.

Which is not the argument you made.


I don't see much difference, nonetheless I'm glad you found the clarification helpful.

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