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pune
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In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 pm

I just cannot get my head to wrap around this. I am seeing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLsmheaKEE and I find that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot use computers. And this is just 10 minutes into the whole thing :(
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:06 pm

Do you really get your news at Comedy Central?
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:28 pm

I am from India but do find it interesting that news or info. such as this has to come through comedy central. Isn't that a shame? Somebody had to do a whole hr. long segment to find and share that whether they are on the right or left, most of them have lot of common ground as well as lot of non-profits who are doing to lessen gun violence in U.S. Sadly, in most of the debates here, those are not at all shared.
 
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scbriml
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:29 pm

pune wrote:
I just cannot get my head to wrap around this. I am seeing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLsmheaKEE and I find that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives cannot use computers. And this is just 10 minutes into the whole thing :(


I don't know which is funnier - the "documentary" or you taking it seriously. :rotfl:
 
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scbriml
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:31 pm

pune wrote:
I am from India but do find it interesting that news or info. such as this has to come through comedy central.


Two options here:

1) You're trolling and doing a pretty good job of it.

2) You honestly don't realise that this is satire, and not news/documentary. It's a joke.
 
petertenthije
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do you really get your news at Comedy Central?

After so many Fox and OAN stories, it makes for a nice change to see a link to a more serious channel. :)
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
I am from India but do find it interesting that news or info. such as this has to come through comedy central.


Two options here:

1) You're trolling and doing a pretty good job of it.

2) You honestly don't realise that this is satire, and not news/documentary. It's a joke.


Dear sir,

Does this look like a joke to you ???

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-no ... databases/ or this -

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/inve ... -547682302

And just to be clear what they are talking about is something which was solved in 1986 or thereabouts as a practical matter.

https://www.zoomdata.com/master-class/a ... -database/
 
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scbriml
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:53 pm

pune wrote:
scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
I am from India but do find it interesting that news or info. such as this has to come through comedy central.


Two options here:

1) You're trolling and doing a pretty good job of it.

2) You honestly don't realise that this is satire, and not news/documentary. It's a joke.


Dear sir,

Does this look like a joke to you ???

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-no ... databases/ or this -

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/inve ... -547682302

And just to be clear what they are talking about is something which was solved in 1986 or thereabouts as a practical matter.

https://www.zoomdata.com/master-class/a ... -database/


Then maybe you should have linked to those rather than a satirical documentary in the first place?
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Two options here:

1) You're trolling and doing a pretty good job of it.

2) You honestly don't realise that this is satire, and not news/documentary. It's a joke.


Dear sir,

Does this look like a joke to you ???

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-no ... databases/ or this -

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/inve ... -547682302

And just to be clear what they are talking about is something which was solved in 1986 or thereabouts as a practical matter.

https://www.zoomdata.com/master-class/a ... -database/


Then maybe you should have linked to those rather than a satirical documentary in the first place?


What can I do if today truth comes in the form of satire. That does not change anything at all. It means either people are ignorant or they don't care.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

pune wrote:
scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
I am from India but do find it interesting that news or info. such as this has to come through comedy central.


Two options here:

1) You're trolling and doing a pretty good job of it.

2) You honestly don't realise that this is satire, and not news/documentary. It's a joke.


Dear sir,

Does this look like a joke to you ???

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-no ... databases/ or this -

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/inve ... -547682302

And just to be clear what they are talking about is something which was solved in 1986 or thereabouts as a practical matter.

https://www.zoomdata.com/master-class/a ... -database/

Yep. When conservatives say "just enforce the laws on the books," they literally mean books. And they're destroying those books/laws too, on purpose.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:55 pm

That’s nothing, unemployment claims were held up by lack of COBOL programmers.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/business ... index.html
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:20 am

That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:53 am

johns624 wrote:
That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.


Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:30 am

pune wrote:
If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.
Really? After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police confiscated legally owned firearms from residents.
https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-r ... 0no%20laws.
 
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WingsFan
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:42 am

pune wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.


Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


Its not about technology. Its about (lack of ) desire to make gun registrations searchable. I know it is impossible to understand this from outside US, but large number of people and politicians in US do not want the gun database to be even exist, much less searchable. There is no point in applying logic when it comes to guns in America. Its irrational and fear based.
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:00 am

WingsFan wrote:
pune wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.


Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


Its not about technology. Its about (lack of ) desire to make gun registrations searchable. I know it is impossible to understand this from outside US, but large number of people and politicians in US do not want the gun database to be even exist, much less searchable. There is no point in applying logic when it comes to guns in America. Its irrational and fear based.


This I can understand and relate. Fear is a strong motivating factor :(
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:10 am

johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.
Really? After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police confiscated legally owned firearms from residents.
https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-r ... 0no%20laws.



There seems to be more than one side of the story -

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/nra-hu ... fiscation/
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:40 am

pune wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.


Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:10 am

There are actual facts in the OP video. Just because it is on Comedy Central does not mean it is a bald faced lie. Oh, and look! He even posted sources and not just out of context sound bytes like right wing infotainment does.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:13 am

johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.
Really? After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police confiscated legally owned firearms from residents.
https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-r ... 0no%20laws.


Why wouldn't they, why would they want firearms to fall into the hands of criminal types.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:15 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
pune wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That would be de facto nationwide gun registration, which many aren't in favor of.


Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?
 
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scbriml
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:22 am

pune wrote:
What can I do if today truth comes in the form of satire.


You had other sources, your point would have been made much better using those other sources. Not many people are going to watch an hour long satirical video trying to sift facts from humour. That's all I'm saying.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.
Really? After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police confiscated legally owned firearms from residents.
https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-r ... 0no%20laws.


Why wouldn't they, why would they want firearms to fall into the hands of criminal types.
How would the guns fall into the hands of criminals when they were owned by law abiding citizens who were using them to protect themselves from criminals. Remember, this is the same Hurricane Katrina where there was a video of New Orleans Police officers in uniform looting a Walmart. When the civil authority breaks down, all you have are your own resources.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:49 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
pune wrote:

Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?
Simple. The way it is set up, there is a database that shows whether you can legally own a firearm. If the answer is yes, there is no reason for the government to know what/how many you own. The OP's post was a bit sensationalistic, since that was only for dealers who have gone out of business. For ones still in business, it's much easier. I've done literally hundreds of "traces" for the ATF when I was working. It takes about 10 minutes from start to finish.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:29 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
pune wrote:

Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?


Yes, nobody owned anything in the way real property before we invented computer databases. How did our civilization exist without them. Got it.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
pune wrote:

Relational databases is how you have everything that works for you in today's life. Me and you speaking on a forum is because of relational databases. You looking up something on google or whatever search-engine you use, it is due to relational databases and you firing a boolean query. This is where FUD ( or Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) fit in. You can't cherry-pick and say I want all the conveniences but none of the responsibilities. The only thing it will solve is make the system faster and easier to check and control crime and any unlawful activity.

Now doesn't your Motor Vehicle or Land records or buildings or bank accounts digitized. If they are digitized and in relational databases, have they come to your house to take all these properties ??? If none can without you taking a loan and being a defaulter, then the same is and will be with guns. Tell me what is difference between this and all the other examples I shared above.


To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?

These are the same people that want to silence the speech of pediatricians telling families of the obvious dangers of guns around children. Being able to to track firearms and the damage they inflict on not only our country but our neighbors mildly inconveniences Bubba and his arsenal so we can't have that.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?


Yes, nobody owned anything in the way real property before we invented computer databases. How did our civilization exist without them. Got it.


All rightly smarty pants try reversing today’s situation to post war, you would hate, I would hate it, so would everyone else. Life is easier today.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:57 pm

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Really? After Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans police confiscated legally owned firearms from residents.
https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-r ... 0no%20laws.


Why wouldn't they, why would they want firearms to fall into the hands of criminal types.
How would the guns fall into the hands of criminals when they were owned by law abiding citizens who were using them to protect themselves from criminals. Remember, this is the same Hurricane Katrina where there was a video of New Orleans Police officers in uniform looting a Walmart. When the civil authority breaks down, all you have are your own resources.


You do you. I’d rather the police took the guns off everyone.

And nobody needs dozens of guns. There should be a limit.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:58 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?

These are the same people that want to silence the speech of pediatricians telling families of the obvious dangers of guns around children. Being able to to track firearms and the damage they inflict on not only our country but our neighbors mildly inconveniences Bubba and his arsenal so we can't have that.
Sorry, we're not all "bubbas". Some of us just like our privacy.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I’d rather the police took the guns off everyone.

And nobody needs dozens of guns. There should be a limit.
But, since the criminals aren't going to give theirs up, I'll keep mine, thank you! Who cares how many guns a person has? It sounds sensationalistic, but you can only shoot one at a time. I liken guns to golf clubs, you need different ones for different purposes. Same as knives, camera lenses, motorcycles, bicycles and a myriad of other inanimate objects.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?


Yes, nobody owned anything in the way real property before we invented computer databases. How did our civilization exist without them. Got it.


All rightly smarty pants try reversing today’s situation to post war, you would hate, I would hate it, so would everyone else. Life is easier today.


I don’t disagree life is more efficient with technology, just that it comes at a privacy cost I want limits on. Much of it isn’t necessary, either, only present because it was possible to design and implement.
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:56 pm

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I’d rather the police took the guns off everyone.

And nobody needs dozens of guns. There should be a limit.
But, since the criminals aren't going to give theirs up, I'll keep mine, thank you! Who cares how many guns a person has? It sounds sensationalistic, but you can only shoot one at a time. I liken guns to golf clubs, you need different ones for different purposes. Same as knives, camera lenses, motorcycles, bicycles and a myriad of other inanimate objects.


Killing is killing. Whether you are popping of multiple rounds per minute or just one. But, it is good you agree that many guns are for recreation only and serve no useful purpose.

Us "liberals" love our privacy also but, for some reason, Republicans are constantly attacking privacy. Privacy has nothing at all to do with how easy it is for anyone to get as many guns as they want for any reason.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:03 pm

Privacy has everything to do with what I spend my money on—tennis rackets, golf clubs, cars, houses, and yes, firearms. It’s none of your or the government’s business what I peacefully spend on. I have perhaps 10,000 books, should they be registered in violation of the First Amendment?
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:41 pm

scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
What can I do if today truth comes in the form of satire.


You had other sources, your point would have been made much better using those other sources. Not many people are going to watch an hour long satirical video trying to sift facts from humour. That's all I'm saying.


Again, you are assuming. I actually came to know of this whole thing from that 'satire documentary'. Now if you think that people cannot watch an hour long something then you have got far bigger problems than I imagined.
 
pune
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

To tell the truth, I’m not very happy that those databases exist.


Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?


Yes, nobody owned anything in the way real property before we invented computer databases. How did our civilization exist without them. Got it.


LOL. As again misfiring. The idea is and was that as and when technology came, it was embraced to make it easier for people to do things. I don't hear people complaining that we don't want more technology, in fact, most of what U.S. produces and spends on is technology rather than anything else. And the same is true of private enterprises as well. So before you try using that line, perhaps rethink a little.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:49 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Privacy has everything to do with what I spend my money on—tennis rackets, golf clubs, cars, houses, and yes, firearms. It’s none of your or the government’s business what I peacefully spend on. I have perhaps 10,000 books, should they be registered in violation of the First Amendment?

Books don't kill 30,000+ people per year and tens of thousands more in Latin America

johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Those databases make it possible for you to get a loan, buy a house, own and operate a motor vehicle, otherwise who keeps control of who owns what and what they are entitled to do?

These are the same people that want to silence the speech of pediatricians telling families of the obvious dangers of guns around children. Being able to to track firearms and the damage they inflict on not only our country but our neighbors mildly inconveniences Bubba and his arsenal so we can't have that.
Sorry, we're not all "bubbas". Some of us just like our privacy.

Some of us like not seeing a mass shooting every day on top of dozens and dozens of daily murders and avoidable suicides
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:43 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Privacy has everything to do with what I spend my money on—tennis rackets, golf clubs, cars, houses, and yes, firearms. It’s none of your or the government’s business what I peacefully spend on. I have perhaps 10,000 books, should they be registered in violation of the First Amendment?


Are you part of a well regulated militia? How many mass killings have there been where a tennis racket or a 9 iron is used? Little bit of a difference.

Again: there is no reason for a private citizen to stockpile military grade weapons and "well regulated militias" were defined by the Founding Fathers as slave patrols.

As far as banning books, some states have tried that and failed. There is a huge difference between the First Amendment and mass shootings.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:55 pm

29.5 years, how ‘bout yourself? My guns haven’t killed anything. It isn’t a comparison between First Amendment and mass shootings—one is in the Constitution, the other is a felony. Owning one or many firearms doesn’t mean one is a felon.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 pm

Law abiding gun owners giving up their guns because of shootings by drug dealers/gangs makes as much sense as all of you giving up your cars because of drunk drivers. Go after the criminals all you want, but me getting rid of all my guns isn't going to change anything.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:48 pm

seb146 wrote:


Again: there is no reason for a private citizen to stockpile military grade weapons and "well regulated militias" were defined by the Founding Fathers as slave patrols.

But, it is good you agree that many guns are for recreation only and serve no useful purpose.

You obviously don't know what "well regulated" means, in the context of the 2nd Amendment. It means that all members had to have a certain caliber of rifle/musket and a certain amount of ammunition on-hand. Seeing as the AR15 is the most numerous rifle in the US, it would be the perfect choice.
I don't see anything in the Constitution about "slave patrols". Care to enlighten me as to what Article and Section I should look under?
You say that guns are only for killing, yet when I give other uses, you come back with "guns are for recreation only and serve no useful purpose". Recreation is very useful. If you don't get out and enjoy hobbies and pastimes, you end up sitting in your little dark room paranoid about the world. A person like that might even frequent an airline forum, even though they're afraid to fly. Sounds stupid, I know, but it could happen...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:45 am

My collection hasn’t killed anybody and I shot about 1,000 rounds in competition this month
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
My collection hasn’t killed anybody and I shot about 1,000 rounds in competition this month
To quote the old bumper sticker "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns".
I'm sure that if seb146 was being assaulted, he would call the police since they had evil guns.
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:35 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:


Again: there is no reason for a private citizen to stockpile military grade weapons and "well regulated militias" were defined by the Founding Fathers as slave patrols.

But, it is good you agree that many guns are for recreation only and serve no useful purpose.

You obviously don't know what "well regulated" means, in the context of the 2nd Amendment. It means that all members had to have a certain caliber of rifle/musket and a certain amount of ammunition on-hand. Seeing as the AR15 is the most numerous rifle in the US, it would be the perfect choice.
I don't see anything in the Constitution about "slave patrols". Care to enlighten me as to what Article and Section I should look under?
You say that guns are only for killing, yet when I give other uses, you come back with "guns are for recreation only and serve no useful purpose". Recreation is very useful. If you don't get out and enjoy hobbies and pastimes, you end up sitting in your little dark room paranoid about the world. A person like that might even frequent an airline forum, even though they're afraid to fly. Sounds stupid, I know, but it could happen...


Again, context on "well regulated militia" as being a compromise for Southern states and their slave patrols

http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syn ... d-militia/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-slave ... -amendment
https://medium.com/the-new-leader/debun ... e06dc06946

I am glad that you agree that gun owners MUST have training in order to own guns instead of simply going out and buying whatever weapons in whatever quantity.
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:42 pm

johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
My collection hasn’t killed anybody and I shot about 1,000 rounds in competition this month
To quote the old bumper sticker "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns".
I'm sure that if seb146 was being assaulted, he would call the police since they had evil guns.


I don't get myself into situations where I would need to call the cops. But who am I to call the cops take away someone's Second Amendment rights if confronted by someone with a gun. I will, instead, wait for a "good guy with a gun" because that is quicker and more likely to happen, right? That is what we hear with every mass shooting. "Good guy with a gun" so let's make guns easier to get for anyone.

I love how gun "enthusiasts" use the "but I never did that so everyone carrying a gun is innocent!" argument as a defense but DEMAND that ALL Muslims apologize for 9/11 and blame ALL brown skinned Americans for immigration issues and blame ALL gays and transgender people for rape. So you personally never killed anyone. Good for you. I never have either. And I have never owned a gun. Does not make one of us better than the other.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
I love how gun "enthusiasts" use the "but I never did that so everyone carrying a gun is innocent!" argument as a defense but DEMAND that ALL Muslims apologize for 9/11 and blame ALL brown skinned Americans for immigration issues and blame ALL gays and transgender people for rape. So you personally never killed anyone. Good for you. I never have either. And I have never owned a gun. Does not make one of us better than the other.
How come you're always stereotyping all gun owners but if we stereotyped you because of your lifestyle, you'd be sending mod reports in? Once again, why do you keep lumping in lawful gun owners in with drug dealers and gang members? NOBODY wants criminals to have guns. Also, according to you, I'm a better man since you seem to think that owning a gun makes the owner commit crimes just by its very presence.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
My collection hasn’t killed anybody and I shot about 1,000 rounds in competition this month
To quote the old bumper sticker "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns".
I'm sure that if seb146 was being assaulted, he would call the police since they had evil guns.


I don't get myself into situations where I would need to call the cops. But who am I to call the cops take away someone's Second Amendment rights if confronted by someone with a gun. I will, instead, wait for a "good guy with a gun" because that is quicker and more likely to happen, right? That is what we hear with every mass shooting. "Good guy with a gun" so let's make guns easier to get for anyone.

I love how gun "enthusiasts" use the "but I never did that so everyone carrying a gun is innocent!" argument as a defense but DEMAND that ALL Muslims apologize for 9/11 and blame ALL brown skinned Americans for immigration issues and blame ALL gays and transgender people for rape. So you personally never killed anyone. Good for you. I never have either. And I have never owned a gun. Does not make one of us better than the other.


Speaking of stereotypes, who makes those accusations? I never heard them made by anyone firearms owners and I know literally hundreds.

I never claimed anyone with a gun is innocent and it’s certainly false claim. Just look at the gun murder stats.
 
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seb146
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
To quote the old bumper sticker "Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns".
I'm sure that if seb146 was being assaulted, he would call the police since they had evil guns.


I don't get myself into situations where I would need to call the cops. But who am I to call the cops take away someone's Second Amendment rights if confronted by someone with a gun. I will, instead, wait for a "good guy with a gun" because that is quicker and more likely to happen, right? That is what we hear with every mass shooting. "Good guy with a gun" so let's make guns easier to get for anyone.

I love how gun "enthusiasts" use the "but I never did that so everyone carrying a gun is innocent!" argument as a defense but DEMAND that ALL Muslims apologize for 9/11 and blame ALL brown skinned Americans for immigration issues and blame ALL gays and transgender people for rape. So you personally never killed anyone. Good for you. I never have either. And I have never owned a gun. Does not make one of us better than the other.


Speaking of stereotypes, who makes those accusations? I never heard them made by anyone firearms owners and I know literally hundreds.

I never claimed anyone with a gun is innocent and it’s certainly false claim. Just look at the gun murder stats.


"Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people...." is a complete stereotype. Especially with private sales not needing a back ground check. So, your privately purchased gun could have been involved in a murder. Not by your hand, of course, but it is something to think about.

Remember after 9/11 all the righties were demanding restrictions on Muslims and the links I provided show death threats to the to Muslim Congresswomen simply because they are Muslim.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/0 ... ate-crimes

Even king MAGA told throngs of adoring fans he saw Muslims dancing and celebrating as the towers fell. Which was a lie.

And has little to do with gun owners. Just the right wing ones. But, generalizations are made all the time by righties. And they demand everyone else never ever make generalizations about them. I am tired of playing by these "we can do it but no one else can" rules.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
And has little to do with gun owners. Just the right wing ones. But, generalizations are made all the time by righties. And they demand everyone else never ever make generalizations about them. I am tired of playing by these "we can do it but no one else can" rules.
Sorry, but you're the only one here constantly ranting about stereotypes. The rest of us are carrying on a rational debate.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:15 pm

I think you have some confusion on what a background check does— it, thru NICS, confirms that the buyer is legally eligible to purchase the firearm in question. It doesn’t run the serial number thru every open case to see if it was involved in a crime. That only occurs when the investigation is opened and pursued.

I’m real certain about my firearms and Kennedy’s car. I know the history of everyone since new or I know the original purchaser, my late father.

John has a better handle on the background check and weigh with facts.
 
johns624
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Re: In America you can't have ATF use computers.

Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I think you have some confusion on what a background check does— it, thru NICS, confirms that the buyer is legally eligible to purchase the firearm in question. It doesn’t run the serial number thru every open case to see if it was involved in a crime. That only occurs when the investigation is opened and pursued.

I’m real certain about my firearms and Kennedy’s car. I know the history of everyone since new or I know the original purchaser, my late father.

John has a better handle on the background check and weigh with facts.
Correct. Background checks just determine whether the purchaser can legally purchase the gun. Serial numbers and models aren't even mentioned. Just "long gun", "handgun" or "other". I keep telling him to so some research before he starts typing, but he won't.

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