Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
continental004
Topic Author
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:29 pm

Many European countries have reopened to American travelers; why don’t we reciprocate?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:36 pm

Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
continental004
Topic Author
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


What do they think?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9085
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:56 pm

We don't have mask mandate. We don't have testing mandate. Some states are opening up 100% and B.1.617.2 is dominant in many states.

There will be a summer surge, fall surge, Thanksgiving surge and Christmas surge.

Who is shopping for new flavor?
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:57 pm

continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


What do they think?


That it’s not looking good.

https://www.kwch.com/2021/06/15/kansas- ... nt-spread/

https://wgno.com/news/health/coronaviru ... siana/amp/

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6071023

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/953006
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:09 pm

The US should be open. Unless there is evidence that vaccinated people face not just hypothetical "risks," but quantifiable danger that is more significant than other health threats. The unvaccinated face COVID sickness or death only because they choose to. Life goes on. The danger to kids is perhaps the most meaningful question, but AFAIK there aren't facts there that justify anything heroic.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:48 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
The US should be open. Unless there is evidence that vaccinated people face not just hypothetical "risks," but quantifiable danger that is more significant than other health threats. The unvaccinated face COVID sickness or death only because they choose to. Life goes on. The danger to kids is perhaps the most meaningful question, but AFAIK there aren't facts there that justify anything heroic.


You or I may feel the unvaccinated are bringing whatever comes on themselves but public health authorities cannot simply choose winners and losers in who’s health to protect. Furthermore, they have a responsibility to ensure healthcare systems are not overtaxed, whether it’s urban/rural or blue/red state.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:21 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


Not so.

The UK, where the Delta variant is spreading, is showing the effects of vaccination:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The Delta variant caused a growth of new cases as of May 28th. Given a 14 day lag we should have then expected a rise in death starting on June 11th. However that has not happened. The delta variant is spreading but vaccinations are protecting the population from severe disease, exactly as vaccination is intended to work.

In addition the 7 day average curve is showing signs of flattening, and the rate of growth of this spike is lower than the previous outbreaks. This spike is only a fraction of any of the pre-vaccination spikes.

Every study shows all vaccines have basically the same level of protection against hospitalisation for the Delta variant compared to other variants, and that is borne out by the statistics:

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-06-14/

Cases of Covid will continue to rise and fall in the upcoming months and years but as long as vaccination remains high the disease caused by the virus will be no worse than a common cold or flu in the vast majority of people so we can enact societal protocols to deal with it like we did prior to this pandemic.

So yes, the Covid pandemic is essentially over in places with high vaccination rates. We will not see a repeat of winter 2020/2021 in Northern Europe and North America for instance.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3752
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:09 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


Not so.

The UK, where the Delta variant is spreading, is showing the effects of vaccination:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The Delta variant caused a growth of new cases as of May 28th. Given a 14 day lag we should have then expected a rise in death starting on June 11th. However that has not happened. The delta variant is spreading but vaccinations are protecting the population from severe disease, exactly as vaccination is intended to work.

In addition the 7 day average curve is showing signs of flattening, and the rate of growth of this spike is lower than the previous outbreaks. This spike is only a fraction of any of the pre-vaccination spikes.

Every study shows all vaccines have basically the same level of protection against hospitalisation for the Delta variant compared to other variants, and that is borne out by the statistics:

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-06-14/

Cases of Covid will continue to rise and fall in the upcoming months and years but as long as vaccination remains high the disease caused by the virus will be no worse than a common cold or flu in the vast majority of people so we can enact societal protocols to deal with it like we did prior to this pandemic.

So yes, the Covid pandemic is essentially over in places with high vaccination rates. We will not see a repeat of winter 2020/2021 in Northern Europe and North America for instance.

Except vaccination rates across the US is highly uneven, with a number of states having fallen way behind in their vaccination drive.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:11 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


Not so.

The UK, where the Delta variant is spreading, is showing the effects of vaccination:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The Delta variant caused a growth of new cases as of May 28th. Given a 14 day lag we should have then expected a rise in death starting on June 11th. However that has not happened. The delta variant is spreading but vaccinations are protecting the population from severe disease, exactly as vaccination is intended to work.

In addition the 7 day average curve is showing signs of flattening, and the rate of growth of this spike is lower than the previous outbreaks. This spike is only a fraction of any of the pre-vaccination spikes.

Every study shows all vaccines have basically the same level of protection against hospitalisation for the Delta variant compared to other variants, and that is borne out by the statistics:

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-06-14/

Cases of Covid will continue to rise and fall in the upcoming months and years but as long as vaccination remains high the disease caused by the virus will be no worse than a common cold or flu in the vast majority of people so we can enact societal protocols to deal with it like we did prior to this pandemic.

So yes, the Covid pandemic is essentially over in places with high vaccination rates. We will not see a repeat of winter 2020/2021 in Northern Europe and North America for instance.


That’s great for the UK but they’re way ahead of us. There are currently 33 US states that are under 50% fully vaccinated.

So - yes, so. There will be numerous US states where significant problems can develop this summer and fall due to vaccine hesitancy.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
That’s great for the UK but they’re way ahead of us. There are currently 33 US states that are under 50% fully vaccinated.

So - yes, so. There will be numerous US states where significant problems can develop this summer and fall due to vaccine hesitancy.


91% of over 65s have received the first dose of the vaccine, 80% fully vaccinated. Even 60% of 18-64 years old have received a first dose of the vaccine, which is probably enough to establish a basic herd immunity. It’s in the younger populations which don’t suffer much of an effect from Covid where the non-immunised rates are higher.

With those numbers plus natural immunity in those who’ve already been exposed to Covid (co-incidentally in the places less likely to be vaccinated) that will definitely reduce hospitalisations and deaths in future outbreaks. They’re pretty much at a basic herd immunity. I would expect some rise in winter but no worse than a typical flu season, and we will not see mass deaths and mass graves like last winter.

If there are states where vaccination rates are lower still they have a large population receiving their first dose. That will definitely decrease the effect of any spread. Even in the lowest states like Alabama and Mississippi (funnily enough) winter 21/22 won’t be as bad as 20/21. It isn’t realistic to wait until all 50 States have over 80% of all people full vaccinated, as it will probably never happen.

I’m a big believer in Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection. At a point you have to accept that free individuals have been given access to a vaccine and have chosen not to take it, and suffer the consequences. I supported restrictions whilst no vaccines existed but now that they’re here and are proven to work intelligent members of society who did the right thing should not have their freedoms restricted because inhabitants of Alabama and Mississippi have the intelligence of swamp creatures.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:53 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
That’s great for the UK but they’re way ahead of us. There are currently 33 US states that are under 50% fully vaccinated.

So - yes, so. There will be numerous US states where significant problems can develop this summer and fall due to vaccine hesitancy.


91% of over 65s have received the first dose of the vaccine, 80% fully vaccinated. Even 60% of 18-64 years old have received a first dose of the vaccine, which is probably enough to establish a basic herd immunity. It’s in the younger populations which don’t suffer much of an effect from Covid where the non-immunised rates are higher.

With those numbers plus natural immunity in those who’ve already been exposed to Covid (co-incidentally in the places less likely to be vaccinated) that will definitely reduce hospitalisations and deaths in future outbreaks. They’re pretty much at a basic herd immunity. I would expect some rise in winter but no worse than a typical flu season, and we will not see mass deaths and mass graves like last winter.

If there are states where vaccination rates are lower still they have a large population receiving their first dose. That will definitely decrease the effect of any spread. Even in the lowest states like Alabama and Mississippi (funnily enough) winter 21/22 won’t be as bad as 20/21. It isn’t realistic to wait until all 50 States have over 80% of all people full vaccinated, as it will probably never happen.

I’m a big believer in Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection. At a point you have to accept that free individuals have been given access to a vaccine and have chosen not to take it, and suffer the consequences. I supported restrictions whilst no vaccines existed but now that they’re here and are proven to work intelligent members of society who did the right thing should not have their freedoms restricted because inhabitants of Alabama and Mississippi have the intelligence of swamp creatures.


Again, as much as we feel that way, authorities cannot pick and choose. They have a legal obligation to safeguard healthcare system capacity for all, in every state.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:19 am

Hi everyone from locked away Sydney, Australia. I don't know whether anyone in the US even thinks about Oceania, but I have heard that the UK feels it's unfair they can't travel here given they've decalared Australia a green zone. I think the overall perepective from anyone who's been here in the last 18 month is "UK, good luck with that".

As for Europe, it is interesting, given that the case and death trends are similar at both ends. I can't wait to be able to travel overseas, but it's likely to be well into 2022 before largely unrestricted (but vaccinated) travel is allowed here. When I'm feeling maudlin I wonder how many of the people in my travels through the South around new years 19/20 didn't make it through.
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/ Q100/200/E195/ 733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/ 320/321/332/333/345/359
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Again, as much as we feel that way, authorities cannot pick and choose. They have a legal obligation to safeguard healthcare system capacity for all, in every state.


But they never did this in any previous year. In 2019 Mississippi had a death rate 4 times higher than Vermont due influenza, so obviously there was differences amongst states, but there were no calls to lock out foreigners to protect Mississippians.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosm ... umonia.htm

And yes I know that Covid has a higher mortality than the flu but that was against an unvaccinated population. We are talking about a current reality where even Mississippi will have a majority of over 65s vaccinated going into next winter. Covid 2022 will be more like the flu, and yes some will succumb and in areas where socioeconomic factors and intelligence levels due Natural Selection will dictate it, like Mississippi, the rates will be higher. But overall the system will be safeguarded.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:30 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Hi everyone from locked away Sydney, Australia. I don't know whether anyone in the US even thinks about Oceania, but I have heard that the UK feels it's unfair they can't travel here given they've decalared Australia a green zone. I think the overall perepective from anyone who's been here in the last 18 month is "UK, good luck with that".

As for Europe, it is interesting, given that the case and death trends are similar at both ends. I can't wait to be able to travel overseas, but it's likely to be well into 2022 before largely unrestricted (but vaccinated) travel is allowed here. When I'm feeling maudlin I wonder how many of the people in my travels through the South around new years 19/20 didn't make it through.


At least the USA and Europe have a large number of vaccinated. The utter shambles of the rollout in Australia is criminal and in a normal world should’ve bought down the government.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:48 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Hi everyone from locked away Sydney, Australia. I don't know whether anyone in the US even thinks about Oceania, but I have heard that the UK feels it's unfair they can't travel here given they've decalared Australia a green zone. I think the overall perepective from anyone who's been here in the last 18 month is "UK, good luck with that".

As for Europe, it is interesting, given that the case and death trends are similar at both ends. I can't wait to be able to travel overseas, but it's likely to be well into 2022 before largely unrestricted (but vaccinated) travel is allowed here. When I'm feeling maudlin I wonder how many of the people in my travels through the South around new years 19/20 didn't make it through.


At least the USA and Europe have a large number of vaccinated. The utter shambles of the rollout in Australia is criminal and in a normal world should’ve bought down the government.


Japan is far worse. Some adults under 65 may not get it till November.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:49 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Again, as much as we feel that way, authorities cannot pick and choose. They have a legal obligation to safeguard healthcare system capacity for all, in every state.


But they never did this in any previous year. In 2019 Mississippi had a death rate 4 times higher than Vermont due influenza, so obviously there was differences amongst states, but there were no calls to lock out foreigners to protect Mississippians.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosm ... umonia.htm

And yes I know that Covid has a higher mortality than the flu but that was against an unvaccinated population. We are talking about a current reality where even Mississippi will have a majority of over 65s vaccinated going into next winter. Covid 2022 will be more like the flu, and yes some will succumb and in areas where socioeconomic factors and intelligence levels due Natural Selection will dictate it, like Mississippi, the rates will be higher. But overall the system will be safeguarded.


Influenza does not tax ICUs in the same manner, and for that matter one state struggling with influenza is not a going global concern. At any rate Americans average a 40-49% flu vaccination rate depending on the year.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1909
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:17 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
At least the USA and Europe have a large number of vaccinated. The utter shambles of the rollout in Australia is criminal and in a normal world should’ve bought down the government.


My level of disagreement with you on that point is zero.

In mitigation, the number of Covid cases in the community is pretty close to zero, with an occasional outbreak. The risk to life of the snail-like vaccination program is extrememly low, the risk to liberty far higher
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/ Q100/200/E195/ 733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/ 320/321/332/333/345/359
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:46 am

About Oceania, from what I can find French Polynesia is open to vaccinated people. New Caledonia isn't.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5948
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:11 am

Aesma wrote:
About Oceania, from what I can find French Polynesia is open to vaccinated people. New Caledonia isn't.


Too bad there is'nt a Direct flight between Europe and French Polynesia. ...
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19951
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:21 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Hi everyone from locked away Sydney, Australia. I don't know whether anyone in the US even thinks about Oceania, but I have heard that the UK feels it's unfair they can't travel here given they've decalared Australia a green zone. I think the overall perepective from anyone who's been here in the last 18 month is "UK, good luck with that".


The whole travel "traffic light" system in the UK is a joke. Australia is a great example - UK Government says we can travel to Australia, but the Australian Government seems to have a different idea!

Apparently, a new plan is being worked on that will allow double-vaccinated people to travel to "Amber" countries and not have to quarantine when they return. Great, but it also requires those countries to allow us in!

As things stand today (before an expected update) the only Green countries are:
Australia
Brunei
Falkland Islands
Faroe Islands
Gibraltar
Iceland
Israel
New Zealand
Singapore
South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands
St Helena, Ascension & Tristan da Cunha

Of those, only Gibraltar could be considered a typical holiday destination for the average Brit.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:26 am

scbriml wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Hi everyone from locked away Sydney, Australia. I don't know whether anyone in the US even thinks about Oceania, but I have heard that the UK feels it's unfair they can't travel here given they've decalared Australia a green zone. I think the overall perepective from anyone who's been here in the last 18 month is "UK, good luck with that".


The whole travel "traffic light" system in the UK is a joke. Australia is a great example - UK Government says we can travel to Australia, but the Australian Government seems to have a different idea!

Unless it was colonies, once covid started and countries closed their borders, it was always up to the individual nations to allow entry, how else is it supposed to work?
As we heard in the Brexit threads, the UK is a small nation, so do we expect the UK to call a world summit of vacation nations that Brits like and try to formulate a standard to allow entry?
What will happen when each nation brings up their infection rate, vaccine supply status, hesitancy, etc etc etc?
I get that people want to travel, I also get that governments also have a responsibility to their citizens, what I don't get is the mindset of some in the UK - from the various comments by the public - that the UK government somehow controls access to other nations. Yes the UK government can make returns easier or difficult for travel to certain nations, but that will always be secondary to the travel nation first allowing access. I see a demonstration by airline crew demanding the government open up travel, once they have pressured their government, how do they intend to pressure other nations governments to open up, are they even thinking that far?
The developed nations gave the third world the formulae that to protect against covid overwhelming health care service lockdowns must be implemented, then they developed vaccines to allow return to normal, expect the supplies are only available in developed nations, so what to do? Unfortunately, tourism is a life blood for many smaller nations, expect them to open up and bear the consequences until vaccines and or covid "clams" down in a year or two. Based on all the "bad news" about vaccines, the hesitancy rate is not going to improve even with the job loss initiative being implemented worldwide. In nations which already had high unemployment, the additional job openings will make little difference.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22454
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:50 am

Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Because the Delta variant is rapidly spreading and vaccination rates are not high enough to stave off its effects. Duh. Ask HCWs what they think of what's coming in a few weeks.


Not so.

The UK, where the Delta variant is spreading, is showing the effects of vaccination:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The Delta variant caused a growth of new cases as of May 28th. Given a 14 day lag we should have then expected a rise in death starting on June 11th. However that has not happened. The delta variant is spreading but vaccinations are protecting the population from severe disease, exactly as vaccination is intended to work.

In addition the 7 day average curve is showing signs of flattening, and the rate of growth of this spike is lower than the previous outbreaks. This spike is only a fraction of any of the pre-vaccination spikes.

Every study shows all vaccines have basically the same level of protection against hospitalisation for the Delta variant compared to other variants, and that is borne out by the statistics:

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-06-14/

Cases of Covid will continue to rise and fall in the upcoming months and years but as long as vaccination remains high the disease caused by the virus will be no worse than a common cold or flu in the vast majority of people so we can enact societal protocols to deal with it like we did prior to this pandemic.

So yes, the Covid pandemic is essentially over in places with high vaccination rates. We will not see a repeat of winter 2020/2021 in Northern Europe and North America for instance.


That’s great for the UK but they’re way ahead of us. There are currently 33 US states that are under 50% fully vaccinated.

So - yes, so. There will be numerous US states where significant problems can develop this summer and fall due to vaccine hesitancy.

It isn't just by state. Density of population matters and pockets of unvaccinated. I noticed the numbers were being played with (denominator). e.g., recently a friend e-mailed me on a group 88% vaccinated. I went through the numbers and found links to show they were 51.8% vaccinated and just adjusted the denominator.

Take the map of vaccinations of Los Angeles, there are well vaccinated zip codes and poorly vaccinated:

late edit, I need more coffee, stale link

This won't be by state. The urban areas with high unvaccinated population will be hard hit. When is the question, not if.
The simple solution is get the vaccine approved for kids as Delta seems to be worse for them. (I certainly don't want my child to have it.)

The problem is the majority of the unvaccinated refuse to let rule differences impact them. They'll go to concerts, amusement parks, indoor dining, and that will propagate the disease.


When the USA opens to Europe should be based on when both improve vaccinations to a more Israel like level (even though Israel has a minor increase in cases):
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... EU~FRA~ISR

The fact the very heavily vaccinated UK is having issues is concerning. I have a relative in Mesa County Colorado who had to turn away *all* ambulances to one hospital last Thursday. Not an easy decision.

I am an aviation fan, but we aren't ready yet for fully open aviation.

Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22454
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:53 pm

Ok, found a more recent LA city map.

https://coronavirus.lacity.org/Map

Big differences even within Los Angeles.
Note: Based off age 16+. Most of the low vaccinated areas have lots of kids, so I would assume the disparity is worse.

This post is meant to build off the last post of mine.

Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22454
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:34 pm

Please keep on topic.
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:44 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

Not so.

The UK, where the Delta variant is spreading, is showing the effects of vaccination:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

The Delta variant caused a growth of new cases as of May 28th. Given a 14 day lag we should have then expected a rise in death starting on June 11th. However that has not happened. The delta variant is spreading but vaccinations are protecting the population from severe disease, exactly as vaccination is intended to work.

In addition the 7 day average curve is showing signs of flattening, and the rate of growth of this spike is lower than the previous outbreaks. This spike is only a fraction of any of the pre-vaccination spikes.

Every study shows all vaccines have basically the same level of protection against hospitalisation for the Delta variant compared to other variants, and that is borne out by the statistics:

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-06-14/

Cases of Covid will continue to rise and fall in the upcoming months and years but as long as vaccination remains high the disease caused by the virus will be no worse than a common cold or flu in the vast majority of people so we can enact societal protocols to deal with it like we did prior to this pandemic.

So yes, the Covid pandemic is essentially over in places with high vaccination rates. We will not see a repeat of winter 2020/2021 in Northern Europe and North America for instance.


That’s great for the UK but they’re way ahead of us. There are currently 33 US states that are under 50% fully vaccinated.

So - yes, so. There will be numerous US states where significant problems can develop this summer and fall due to vaccine hesitancy.

It isn't just by state. Density of population matters and pockets of unvaccinated. I noticed the numbers were being played with (denominator). e.g., recently a friend e-mailed me on a group 88% vaccinated. I went through the numbers and found links to show they were 51.8% vaccinated and just adjusted the denominator.

Take the map of vaccinations of Los Angeles, there are well vaccinated zip codes and poorly vaccinated:

late edit, I need more coffee, stale link

This won't be by state. The urban areas with high unvaccinated population will be hard hit. When is the question, not if.
The simple solution is get the vaccine approved for kids as Delta seems to be worse for them. (I certainly don't want my child to have it.)

The problem is the majority of the unvaccinated refuse to let rule differences impact them. They'll go to concerts, amusement parks, indoor dining, and that will propagate the disease.


When the USA opens to Europe should be based on when both improve vaccinations to a more Israel like level (even though Israel has a minor increase in cases):
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... EU~FRA~ISR

The fact the very heavily vaccinated UK is having issues is concerning. I have a relative in Mesa County Colorado who had to turn away *all* ambulances to one hospital last Thursday. Not an easy decision.

I am an aviation fan, but we aren't ready yet for fully open aviation.

Lightsaber


Agreed - meeting targets is the key to being able to fully open, especially given the reality many are going to exploit rule differences anyway. Vaccine hesitancy is the single most influential driver of how much more delay is incurred due to healthcare needs.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Agreed - meeting targets is the key to being able to fully open, especially given the reality many are going to exploit rule differences anyway. Vaccine hesitancy is the single most influential driver of how much more delay is incurred due to healthcare needs.

Issue now is what is being done to reduce hesitancy, during the lockdowns social media ran amok with all manner of conspiracies, now it may be too late for governments to do anything to blunt those messages, only option is to beef up the health care systems to handle the effects of an open economy on a population not at herd immunity.
Interesting looking at the California numbers, I think they are the state doing million dollar lotteries to encourage vaccine uptake.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26737
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:40 pm

A combination of xenophobia and probably trying to prevent the UK from looking bad.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
saleya22r
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:31 pm

I have close family in the US. We used to fly over to see our grandchildren at least twice a year. So, I can’t wait to the ban to end. Living in the Schengen area (expat in France), the U.S. has been closed for us since March 2020. More recently, Americans have been able to visit Europe. Regarding the vaccination rates, we’re still lagging behind the U.S. on average but differences between the Schengen countries are not negligible (same with the U.S. states I guess). Would vaccinated Europeans entering the U.S. be more dangerous than Americans flying back home from, say Paris or Rome this summer?

Now everybody is worried about the Delta variant, and new cases are up, particularly in the UK in spite of their rather high vaccination rates. But Britain has used Astra Zeneca in addition to the mRNA vaccines (did not find any % figures), and initially used very long intervals between the 1. And 2nd jab. AZ efficacy is said to be somewhat lower against the Delta variant, can these factors partly explain the surge in the UK? But Delta variant infections have been reported in fully vaccinated (Pfizer) individuals elsewhere (Israel, Finland etc).

I think the U.S. should reciprocally open the borders for normal traffic from Europe, initially at least for fully the vaccinated. It is strange that entry for Schengen/EU citizens has been allowed from some third countries after a 14-day stay. Could we still fly to IST, stay in Turkey 2 weeks then continue to MIA?? Many of those countries may have worse COVID-19 figures than Europe…

Airlines are adding new and restoring old routes across the pond almost en masse. They can’t be only for Americans flying here and for the few Europeans eligible for entry? Will the U.S. Canada border be opened first, before Europe? Or the UK before the EU?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9085
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:04 am

continental004 wrote:

Sounds like fearmongering to me. Also, we do have a testing mandate for international arrivals.



https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html

International travelers arriving in the United States are still recommended to get a SARS-CoV-2 viral test 3-5 days after travel regardless of vaccination status.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10821
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:
As laymen, we do not have the credentials or knowledge to label opinions of HCWs as 'fearmongering'. Unless you have an MD or MPH we are not aware of? You're entitled to an opinion, but not your own facts.

The fact that a segment of the population won't listen (sizeable at that) is precisely why the healthcare system must continue to be safeguarded. Overtaxed HCWs and hospitals don't do anyone else favors.

In time, we may get more in-depth details of how many persons died or were seriously affected by the widespread initiative to close all hospitals to all conditions other than Covid, it is hard getting exact numbers to confirm that more persons are now dying from non-covid related issues.
Hopefully, as we go forward, to accommodate the non-vaccine segment, a better balance and allocation of resources will be implemented.
 
User avatar
saleya22r
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:02 pm

No green light from Blinken yet:
"President Joe Biden’s administration is working on the lifting of COVID-19 travel restrictions imposed on EU citizens but it is premature to put a date on any such move, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Friday."

https://skift.com/2021/06/25/u-s-travel ... s-blinken/
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22454
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:55 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
As laymen, we do not have the credentials or knowledge to label opinions of HCWs as 'fearmongering'. Unless you have an MD or MPH we are not aware of? You're entitled to an opinion, but not your own facts.

The fact that a segment of the population won't listen (sizeable at that) is precisely why the healthcare system must continue to be safeguarded. Overtaxed HCWs and hospitals don't do anyone else favors.

In time, we may get more in-depth details of how many persons died or were seriously affected by the widespread initiative to close all hospitals to all conditions other than Covid, it is hard getting exact numbers to confirm that more persons are now dying from non-covid related issues.
Hopefully, as we go forward, to accommodate the non-vaccine segment, a better balance and allocation of resources will be implemented.

The hospitals in Mesa County Colorado are close to Stints, colonoscopies, and other life saving elective surgery is being postponed. This must have an effect.



There is something different about the way they are doing excess deaths. I'll have to look into what and why. We have much higher excess deaths at this time in the USA than I expected.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... deaths.htm

Why?

Until an area has coronavirus under control, we will have to ban travel. We need quantifiable benchmarks though on testing, vaccination rates, and a fair way to weigh vaccine efficiency.
e.g., at this point I would weight Pfizer and Moderna at .88, J&J at .65, AZ at .6, and the attenuated virus Vaccines at 0.5 for fully vaccinated. An area's total population must be over say 0.6 for open travel.

Yes, this means kids must be vaccinated. It seems they transmit Delta:
https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-v ... ids-2021-6

In the US, meanwhile, kids represented nearly 25% of new weekly cases for the week ending June 17, despite them making up about 22% of the population. That's higher than the overall share since the start of the pandemic: 14%.

Delta has changed all the previous rules and assumptions. Sigh ..

Lightsaber
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
continental004
Topic Author
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:21 pm

saleya22r wrote:
No green light from Blinken yet:
"President Joe Biden’s administration is working on the lifting of COVID-19 travel restrictions imposed on EU citizens but it is premature to put a date on any such move, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Friday."

https://skift.com/2021/06/25/u-s-travel ... s-blinken/


"Premature" based on what? That's what I'd like to know.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1104
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:48 pm

Each year people can’t live their lives in the US is equivalent to 330 million person years. About 4 million lives lost per year. These are prime years, not end of life years, which is primarily what COVID itself took. And that doesn’t count the human lives spent earning the money to pay the debt. One person can only pay maybe half a million in tax. So 5 trillion dollars is roughly 10 million more human lives spent just on that aspect of this clusterfuck.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:37 pm

continental004 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
continental004 wrote:

Again, more fearmongering.



This. The danger has mostly passed. The unvaccinated here in the USA are CHOOSING to remain vulnerable at this point; vaccines are literally being handed out like candy now. PERIODT.



They are bringing whatever comes on themselves. Public health officials have worked tirelessly to promote vaccines and a certain segment of the population just won't listen. Darwinism at work.


As laymen, we do not have the credentials or knowledge to label opinions of HCWs as 'fearmongering'. Unless you have an MD or MPH we are not aware of? You're entitled to an opinion, but not your own facts.

The fact that a segment of the population won't listen (sizeable at that) is precisely why the healthcare system must continue to be safeguarded. Overtaxed HCWs and hospitals don't do anyone else favors.


I can label anyone's opinion however I want to.


Labeling opinions does not change the situation on the ground for HC infrastructure. That’s all that matters on this issue. There is too much healthcare and economic disruption if hospitals get inundated with only one medical condition.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:10 am

lightsaber wrote:
We need quantifiable benchmarks though on testing, vaccination rates, and a fair way to weigh vaccine efficiency.
e.g., at this point I would weight Pfizer and Moderna at .88, J&J at .65, AZ at .6, and the attenuated virus Vaccines at 0.5 for fully vaccinated. An area's total population must be over say 0.6 for open travel.


Where did you get those figures from? Actual data shows 92-96%:

https://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/pfiz ... GN_NAME=2&
 
User avatar
saleya22r
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:13 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:07 am

continental004 wrote:
saleya22r wrote:
No green light from Blinken yet:
"President Joe Biden’s administration is working on the lifting of COVID-19 travel restrictions imposed on EU citizens but it is premature to put a date on any such move, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Friday."

https://skift.com/2021/06/25/u-s-travel ... s-blinken/


"Premature" based on what? That's what I'd like to know.


They follow the CDC recommendations and of course if you look at the figures we are perhaps not there yet. But obviously there's the political component as well. Maybe the U.S. starts with the UK and Canada? Trudeau wants 75% (at least one jab) vaccinated before opening.
But yes, the last announcement was a bit of a disappointment, and I agree with:

"The ban on travel from Europe once made sense. Now it’s only causing hardship"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... -hardship/

And further:
"WASHINGTON, June 23 (Reuters) - The European Union's top diplomat in Washington said the United States should safely ease COVID-19 travel restrictions on Europeans, calling it a mistake to prevent European business executives from overseeing their U.S. investments."
https://www.reuters.com/business/eu-env ... 021-06-23/

The population of the Schengen area is over 400 million, more than that of the U.S. COVID-19 stats obviously vary a lot from country to country.
Right now, in France for example, the figures are quite good but 40% of new cases are caused by the Delta variant. R number for the country: 0,54, PACA 0,59.

Delta (Airlines :smile: )resumes the JFK-NCE service in early July; Great to see them back but I guess initially they'll fly back almost empty..

And remember that even inside Schengen, there's no 100% free travel yet. I just downloaded my EU vaccination certificate, valid from 1 July. With this, I avoid PCR tests when crossing many borders.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9085
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:54 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
continental004 wrote:

Sounds like fearmongering to me. Also, we do have a testing mandate for international arrivals.



https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html

International travelers arriving in the United States are still recommended to get a SARS-CoV-2 viral test 3-5 days after travel regardless of vaccination status.


That is a testing recommendation after arrival into the US. You are still required to supply a negative COVID-19 test within 3 days of travel to get onboard a US bound flight.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vid19.html


That is convenient. No country is going allow one to board the plane with negative test.
All posts are just opinions.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:50 pm

We should absolutely open up to vaccinated Europeans (and others). Otherwise it makes a complete joke of the “go get your vaccine” messaging we get every day.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22454
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:00 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
We need quantifiable benchmarks though on testing, vaccination rates, and a fair way to weigh vaccine efficiency.
e.g., at this point I would weight Pfizer and Moderna at .88, J&J at .65, AZ at .6, and the attenuated virus Vaccines at 0.5 for fully vaccinated. An area's total population must be over say 0.6 for open travel.


Where did you get those figures from? Actual data shows 92-96%:

https://www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/pfiz ... GN_NAME=2&

That is versus the old variants.
Pfizer (and Moderna) 88% vs. Delta https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2021/06/ ... 20by%20NBC.

Huh, when I re-searched, J&J was 60% vs. Delta: https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2021/06/ ... a%20strain.

Careful how you read the data. I had coronavirus pre-vaccine and was no where near hospitalization. Many are benchmarking against keeping out the hospital, as I have long haul symptoms that they no believe is brain damage (loss of taste), data is 60% against catching:

The second dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine increased protection against the Delta variant by up to 60 percent, while protection against the Alpha variant reached 66 percent.
https://www.archyworldys.com/astrazenec ... alization/

I was too generous with attenuated virus vaccine. SinoVac is being returned by Indonesia as it just isn't effective enough to keep administering it:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart ... 75350f1444

On Wednesday, Costa Rica, in the midst of a severe Covid-19 outbreak, rejected a delivery of the Sinovac vaccine after health officials, examining clinical data, decided it was not effective enough.


Your data was great against the old variants.
A really amazing chart on the variant trends over time:
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/how-mu ... 1624806000
Image

Now in all fairness, even the Chines are admitting their vaccines are less effective vs. Delta, but they seem to be keeping people out of the hospital (as are the Western vaccines).
However, it means they do not slow the spread so much.

As that WSJ chart shows, quickly the old variants are displaced. I have friends and relatives in hospitals being hit by delta. For those under the age of 45 who aren't obese, the difference is staggering.

At this time, the UK is going exponential with Delta despite a great vaccine regimen and good vaccination rate.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... RA~ISR~CHL

The question is, is Chile dropping do to more vaccination (although a very high rate of infections for a superb vaccination rate) or enough people had coronavirus?
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... by+dose%29

So obviously a committee would have to do the weighting factors with multiple proposals for each vaccine's effectiveness.

My opinion is Delta is only stopped by both vaccines.
The report puts the protection from requiring hospital treatment for COVID-19 at 71% after one dose and at 92% after two doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine. The Pfizer vaccine was 94% effective at preventing hospitalization after the first dose and 96% after two doses.

Note I said be careful on effectiveness. AZ is 92% effective keeping people out of the hospital, but 60% effective (see link above) against catching Delta)
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... talization

With such high fractions of the population unvaccinated, we (the USA, this thread) need to care about how well vaccines do stopping the spread.

Unfortunately, we are going to need much higher vaccination rates and boosters before travel opens up again fully.
I applaud the UK for there extremely high testing rate. I'm very concerned about countries that are not testing enough. We will unfortunately keep seeing variants until the world is well vaccinated. Unfortunately, that means putting a weighting factor on vaccines. I provided links to the weighting factors I stated.

I'll be blunt, the vaccines where ready data isn't published scare me (usually, one hides bad information, not good information). Sadly, while vaccines keep people out of the hospital, we are discussing risk of importing new variants (even if we don't admit that) and that means how effective is the vaccine? How likely is the person to be exposed? That means weighing vaccine rates, vaccine types, local outbreaks, and other public health factors.

I want aviation to return to normal. I really do. I hope we can ramp up vaccine production to get everyone vaccinated and then everyone a good booster.

Lightsaber

ps
I know Delta is spreading locally:
https://news.yahoo.com/highly-contagiou ... 59529.html

With an Ro of 5+, all the vaccinations to date just slow Delta to how this was at the beginning except for perhaps Israel. :cry2:
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/h ... 253231.php
8 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:37 am

No offense, but you are just fear-mongering. If the US opened up to fully vaccinated people (and real vaccines, not the China/Russia stuff), why not let them in? Europe is letting fully vaccinated Americans in. Why not return the favor?

I don’t need 8 paragraphs of “Delta is bad”. Just say simply why a fully vaccinated person from Europe (or elsewhere) should not come here.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:55 am

travelin man wrote:
No offense, but you are just fear-mongering. If the US opened up to fully vaccinated people (and real vaccines, not the China/Russia stuff), why not let them in? Europe is letting fully vaccinated Americans in. Why not return the favor?

I don’t need 8 paragraphs of “Delta is bad”. Just say simply why a fully vaccinated person from Europe (or elsewhere) should not come here.


Because it’s premature to let everyone in until there is confirmation all vaccines on the market can keep Delta’s R0 down. There.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:05 am

Aaron747 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
No offense, but you are just fear-mongering. If the US opened up to fully vaccinated people (and real vaccines, not the China/Russia stuff), why not let them in? Europe is letting fully vaccinated Americans in. Why not return the favor?

I don’t need 8 paragraphs of “Delta is bad”. Just say simply why a fully vaccinated person from Europe (or elsewhere) should not come here.


Because it’s premature to let everyone in until there is confirmation all vaccines on the market can keep Delta’s R0 down. There.


From the current LA Times front page:

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... california

But vaccinated people are well protected against infection and illness from the Delta variant. One recent study found that the full course of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (two doses) was 88% effective against symptomatic disease caused by the Delta variant and 96% protective against hospitalization.

Los Angeles County, the nation’s most populous, has confirmed 123 Delta variant cases — 49 of them among residents of Palmdale and Lancaster. Fourteen cases of the Delta variant were among people from a single household.

L.A. County data suggest that vaccines are still overwhelmingly effective in protecting people against the Delta variant, as well as other known variants.

Of those 123 confirmed cases of the Delta variant in L.A. County, 89% of them occurred among people who were not vaccinated against COVID-19, and 2% among those who were partially vaccinated.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:07 am

Oh, and “ The few fully vaccinated people who have been infected with the Delta variant “experienced relatively mild illness,” L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:12 am

travelin man wrote:
Oh, and “ The few fully vaccinated people who have been infected with the Delta variant “experienced relatively mild illness,” L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said.


Great, that’s PBNT, now how about the other vaccines?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:24 am

Aaron747 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
Oh, and “ The few fully vaccinated people who have been infected with the Delta variant “experienced relatively mild illness,” L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said.


Great, that’s PBNT, now how about the other vaccines?


The vaccinated people experiencing mild illness would include J&J. As far as I’m aware there hasn’t been a huge surge in deaths/serious hospitalizations in the UK among those taking AZ.

So, yeah it’s time to let vaccinated people in.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:26 am

travelin man wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
Oh, and “ The few fully vaccinated people who have been infected with the Delta variant “experienced relatively mild illness,” L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said.


Great, that’s PBNT, now how about the other vaccines?


The vaccinated people experiencing mild illness would include J&J. As far as I’m aware there hasn’t been a huge surge in deaths/serious hospitalizations in the UK among those taking AZ.

So, yeah it’s time to let vaccinated people in.


When that is the medical / public health consensus, absolutely. We’re not there yet. It’s enough of a challenge for healthcare that the unvaccinated are spreading whatever domestically now.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
travelin man
Posts: 3263
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:57 am

Aaron747 wrote:
travelin man wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Great, that’s PBNT, now how about the other vaccines?


The vaccinated people experiencing mild illness would include J&J. As far as I’m aware there hasn’t been a huge surge in deaths/serious hospitalizations in the UK among those taking AZ.

So, yeah it’s time to let vaccinated people in.


When that is the medical / public health consensus, absolutely. We’re not there yet. It’s enough of a challenge for healthcare that the unvaccinated are spreading whatever domestically now.


In case you haven’t noticed, the medical experts are saying it’s ok for people to be maskless, go to concerts and movies, and even TRAVEL if you are fully vaccinated.

There is no scientific reason to keep a vaccinated person from traveling here, only political reasons. Thank god the Europeans are smarter than us.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15053
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Why won’t the USA open up to Europe?

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:10 am

travelin man wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
travelin man wrote:

The vaccinated people experiencing mild illness would include J&J. As far as I’m aware there hasn’t been a huge surge in deaths/serious hospitalizations in the UK among those taking AZ.

So, yeah it’s time to let vaccinated people in.


When that is the medical / public health consensus, absolutely. We’re not there yet. It’s enough of a challenge for healthcare that the unvaccinated are spreading whatever domestically now.


In case you haven’t noticed, the medical experts are saying it’s ok for people to be maskless, go to concerts and movies, and even TRAVEL if you are fully vaccinated.

There is no scientific reason to keep a vaccinated person from traveling here, only political reasons. Thank god the Europeans are smarter than us.


You are conflating things. Medical experts were saying that three weeks ago before Delta was becoming a going concern - now many are expressing concern about it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CRJ200flyer, Dieuwer and 41 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos