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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:26 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Isn't there a duty by the managers to keep the costs low, by asessing and repairing damages in time - before concrete rebar rusts and repairs get super-duper-expensive?


Depends on the criteria that define how their performance and cost effectiveness are rated.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:26 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Isn't there a duty by the managers to keep the costs low, by asessing and repairing damages in time - before concrete rebar rusts and repairs get super-duper-expensive?


Depends on the criteria that define how their performance and cost effectiveness are rated. For some owners that would be as you say, for others it might be 'minimize all non-operating expense and maintain x% tenancy'.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:50 am

At the end of the day these events are very rare so nobody expects them to happen, I guess.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
At the end of the day these events are very rare so nobody expects them to happen, I guess.


Very true, but rare isn’t the same as never. Fat tails and all that
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:51 pm

I live in a fairly (kinda high rise) new condo, and have been almost astounded at how resistant many residents are to top notch maintenance of expensive mechanicals. It is hard to relate to how expensive things can be. One particular mechanical (actually one of three identical things) is showing signs of something wrong - just to look at it will cost almost $10K. Another $50K mechanical has been kind of ignored, and may only last for half of its expected service life. $100Ks for water infiltration/other plumbing repairs.
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I live in a fairly (kinda high rise) new condo, and have been almost astounded at how resistant many residents are to top notch maintenance of expensive mechanicals. It is hard to relate to how expensive things can be. One particular mechanical (actually one of three identical things) is showing signs of something wrong - just to look at it will cost almost $10K. Another $50K mechanical has been kind of ignored, and may only last for half of its expected service life. $100Ks for water infiltration/other plumbing repairs.


You should look into the financials. Make sure the reserves are funded, If not, yo can expect special assessments that aren't cheap.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:29 pm

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 21658.html

Here are some images of what the state of the building was 36 hours prior to collapse. To those out there who know about construction how bad does it look ?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:29 pm

We actually have an adequate reserve fund, but have exhausted the settlements (note plural) from our law suits for major construction defects. Fortunately the basic structure is sound, but a lot of short cuts in the final construction took place. While I do not like to be on committees or attend meetings I plan on volunteering for the building committee. We never have had one before. The basic job will entail studying the building and its mechanical systems, as well as frequent walk-throughs.
 
Derico
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
We actually have an adequate reserve fund, but have exhausted the settlements (note plural) from our law suits for major construction defects. Fortunately the basic structure is sound, but a lot of short cuts in the final construction took place. While I do not like to be on committees or attend meetings I plan on volunteering for the building committee. We never have had one before. The basic job will entail studying the building and its mechanical systems, as well as frequent walk-throughs.


How do you guys tolerate this in the United States? How can anyone talk about "3rd world mentality", when this is Exhibit A1? I say this because I have a couple of acquaintances who have bought property in the US, in very different locations, but both have commented the exact same things you have: so-called "short cuts" everywhere, from structurally inconsequential yet equally infuriating (at least to me), changes in the furnishings of the apartments (cheaper appliances, cheaper material for the cabinetry), all the way to the far more serious like less expensive material for the plumbing, or cheaper heating or AC units. Yet they didn't get a discount on the price!

How is that even tolerated, much less just allowed by the legal system? You, and the people I mentioned, should be getting millions in compensation for both gross fraud, but also for outright abandonment of safety and life endangerment. I'm sorry, but the things people in supposedly 1st world countries put of with with just a "sigh, what can you do you know", is stunning.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:14 pm

Despite warning, town deemed condo building in ‘good shape’

https://apnews.com/article/surfside-bui ... e2601c64b1

The board meeting minutes say that Prieto told them in 2018 the Morabito engineering report had collected the necessary information and “it appears the building is in very good shape.”

A day later, Prieto told the then-town manager of Surfside he thought the meeting was a success and credited Champlain Towers with getting a good early start on the recertification process.

Yet there is no evidence any of the critical concrete structure work ever started, the documents show.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:23 pm

Before I bought the unit I read everything available from the initial land purchase, the permitting, building, near bankruptcy, all condo assoc. minutes, newspaper reporting. Much of it was not very pretty and the price I paid reflected the problems. As I mentioned in an earlier post a friend who owns a structural engineering firm declines to get involved with high rise condos due to legal liability. Another engineer friend noted that it is not possible to build a high rise without subsequent issues. It may be different in other countries. I would like to hear about it. England has had some major problems.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:32 am

Don’t live in a condo or HOA, rare where I am fortunately.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:42 am

Based on today’s reporting in the Miami Herald, something is very amiss in Surfside. Saltwater incursion was a known issue in this building for years. Anyone in a large structure in that area should be encouraging owners to get serious and conduct safety checks.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:48 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Don’t live in a condo or HOA, rare where I am fortunately.


Don't live in an old, poorly maintained condo over 2 stories. Condos are very tricky tbh. In some areas of the country the can be decent investments if new enough...I wouldnt buy a 40 yo condo anywhere. The only old buildings that hold up are those solid stone ones like in the NE. New York City Coops and newer WELL BUILT condos and ish.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:01 am

Apparently the Condo Board for this building had approved what would be $15 Million in repairs with assessments to be paid up front or over a 15 year period. For some, it would mean over $500 a month for their share of the repairs. The plan was to start as of July 1st. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfs ... index.html
 
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casinterest
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:50 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Apparently the Condo Board for this building had approved what would be $15 Million in repairs with assessments to be paid up front or over a 15 year period. For some, it would mean over $500 a month for their share of the repairs. The plan was to start as of July 1st. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfs ... index.html


Even those assessments seem to have come over two years late . It is not clear if the items for repair would have even addressed what the ultimate issue appears to be, as it seems structural integrity was already compromised.


https://www.cbs58.com/news/condo-owners ... of-repairs

An itemized list of planned repairs included new pavers, planter landscape and waterproofing -- addressing some of the issues noted in a 2018 engineer's report, which warned how leaking water was leading to deteriorating concrete. The most costly project listed was "facade, balcony and railing repairs," for $3.4 million.

The 2018 report, prepared for the condo association, had previously estimated that necessary repairs to the Surfside, Fla. building would cost about $9.1 million. It's unclear whether the issues identified by Frank Morabito, the structural engineer who produced the report, contributed to the disaster.


The assessments were rather steep too.

Owners would have to pay assessments ranging from $80,190 for one-bedroom units to $336,135 for the owner of the building's four-bedroom penthouse, a document sent to the building's residents said. The deadline to pay upfront or choose paying a monthly fee lasting 15 years was July 1.



With the big building boom across Florida in the 80's,. I wonder how many more structures have integrity issues waiting to be discovered?
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:53 pm

They all have the same issues. Some building management is more proactive than others. I have seen several buildings, having friends and family at Beach Condos. Some special assessments are Draconian.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:56 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Don’t live in a condo or HOA, rare where I am fortunately.


Don't live in an old, poorly maintained condo over 2 stories. Condos are very tricky tbh. In some areas of the country the can be decent investments if new enough...I wouldnt buy a 40 yo condo anywhere. The only old buildings that hold up are those solid stone ones like in the NE. New York City Coops and newer WELL BUILT condos and ish.


No, don’t live anywhere that requires a board or association to vote on what one can do with their own property. Maybe as a “vacation” deal, maybe, but still no. I can see a rental apartment, they one can just walk away and the building owner has an interest in upkeep to preserve his investment. A condo or co-op is a tragedy of the commons.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:03 pm

There remains an uncertainty. The engineering report documents need for structural repairs, but thus far nothing released so far indicates a possibility of building collapse. It all will come out, whether or not those repairs which were scheduled actually address what will be determined as causing the collapse.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
With the big building boom across Florida in the 80's,. I wonder how many more structures have integrity issues waiting to be discovered?


And all the corners being cut in construction...this is a huge potential time bomb around the state. Hard to get away with this kind of thing out west due to severe inspection regimens and seismic codes.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
With the big building boom across Florida in the 80's,. I wonder how many more structures have integrity issues waiting to be discovered?


And all the corners being cut in construction...this is a huge potential time bomb around the state. Hard to get away with this kind of thing out west due to severe inspection regimens and seismic codes.


Yes, and I wonder what the effect will be on homes in the area. Condos are going to be come quite a bit less popular with all the maintenance and inspection overhead costs especially with this incident forcing hands. Buyers will beware, and the sellers will be motivated in the condo arena for awhile.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:55 pm

These condos were literally on the beach so surely they were worth more than average ?
 
luckyone
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:07 pm

Derico wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
We actually have an adequate reserve fund, but have exhausted the settlements (note plural) from our law suits for major construction defects. Fortunately the basic structure is sound, but a lot of short cuts in the final construction took place. While I do not like to be on committees or attend meetings I plan on volunteering for the building committee. We never have had one before. The basic job will entail studying the building and its mechanical systems, as well as frequent walk-throughs.


How do you guys tolerate this in the United States? How can anyone talk about "3rd world mentality", when this is Exhibit A1? I say this because I have a couple of acquaintances who have bought property in the US, in very different locations, but both have commented the exact same things you have: so-called "short cuts" everywhere, from structurally inconsequential yet equally infuriating (at least to me), changes in the furnishings of the apartments (cheaper appliances, cheaper material for the cabinetry), all the way to the far more serious like less expensive material for the plumbing, or cheaper heating or AC units. Yet they didn't get a discount on the price!

How is that even tolerated, much less just allowed by the legal system? You, and the people I mentioned, should be getting millions in compensation for both gross fraud, but also for outright abandonment of safety and life endangerment. I'm sorry, but the things people in supposedly 1st world countries put of with with just a "sigh, what can you do you know", is stunning.

There are enough people for whom the phrase "pound wise penny foolish," applies here. Consider when dealing with a condo in Florida you're often talking about retirees or vacationers who are either uncaring (who cares if the building isn't maintained in 30 years, I'll be dead) or cash strapped. You have people who moved to Florida for financial reasons when it was actually cheap and not just relatively cheap who are watching their values balloon while their income may not be. It's not clear at this time how long it took to agree on special assessments vs HOA fee increases etc etc, but undoubtedly those were drawn out discussions.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:15 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/29/us/flori ... index.html

Board President Jean Wodnicki addressed the letter to neighbors April 9.
"The concrete deterioration is accelerating. The roof situation got much worse, so extensive roof repairs had to be incorporated," says the letter, acquired by CNN's "Erin Burnett OutFront."
Wodnicki further describes issues facing the building saying, "When you can visually see the concrete spalling (cracking), that means that the rebar holding it together is rusting and deteriorating beneath the surface."


So the board knew the deterioration was progressing. I wonder if they had a building inspector look into it?
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:34 pm

I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:38 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.




Really? How do you possibly think an airplane search with a hollow composite/Alluminum/Steel body compares to 12-15 floors of pancaked 12 inch think concrete floors with many household items and people?
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:39 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.


Concrete is heavier than aluminum, all that debris takes time to clear away, they are getting bits of the building raining down. I would not agree with your last statement; this is not easier.
 
Newark727
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:45 pm

Yeah the first thing that comes to mind for me is not a plane crash, but 9/11. Obviously this is a much smaller building than the World Trade Center, but it was a weeks-long process to go through all the concrete rubble.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:52 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.

A building collapse will be significantly harder, unless the plane is at the bottom of the ocean.

You have a massive pile of unstable rubble. You can't use a lot of heavy equipment. To do so would risk the whole lot collapsing even further, possibly causing further injuries and deaths among the rescue / salvage crew.

And you would also have to be carefull for exposed gas / power / water lines. Plus potentially other chemicals, for instance the chlorine used in the pool. Though that would probably only apply to the immediate aftermath. We're now several days in and it is a safe bet the utilities have been cut. That would possibly only leave the chlorine.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:57 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.


What in the world? It's almost as if you've never seen news footage of earthquake SAR.
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:00 pm

I agree that the comparison with a plane crash might be wrong (I felt it would be worse due to the dangerous terrain and jet fuel involved in many circumstances), but still isn't it taking unusually long to pull out bodies/survivors? Maybe it symbolizes how rare the event is, but I would usually except more by now.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:22 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I agree that the comparison with a plane crash might be wrong (I felt it would be worse due to the dangerous terrain and jet fuel involved in many circumstances), but still isn't it taking unusually long to pull out bodies/survivors? Maybe it symbolizes how rare the event is, but I would usually except more by now.


It's not unusually long at all. In the 2017 Puebla quake in Mexico, they were still pulling bodies out of collapsed structures three weeks after. In our Bay Area quake in 1989, there was a longshoreman who was pulled out alive from a pancaked freeway four days after the quake, and they were recovering bodies for another week and a half. Concrete is not the easiest material to work with.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:55 pm

Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed this damage in garage

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 21658.html

“There was standing water all over the parking garage,” the contractor, who asked not to be named, told the Miami Herald. He noted cracking concrete and severely corroded rebar under the pool.

He also took photos, which he shared with the Herald.

The contractor visited the condo building last week to put together a bid for a cosmetic restoration of the pool as well as to price out new pool equipment.
 
Okie
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:09 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I agree that the comparison with a plane crash might be wrong (I felt it would be worse due to the dangerous terrain and jet fuel involved in many circumstances), but still isn't it taking unusually long to pull out bodies/survivors? Maybe it symbolizes how rare the event is, but I would usually except more by now.


The Murrah Building Bombing took many weeks to recover the victims. Might know a little about that event.

I don't think you understand the frailty of the human body. 55% water and a bone structure to support less than 300# roughly. People break ankles stepping off curbs.
Tens of thousands of pounds of structural weigh on top of a body pretty much exceeds the limits of the skins ability to contain fluids.
The bone structure will fail miserably considering there is enough mechanical stresses during the collapse to break structural concrete into pieces the size of softballs and soccer balls.
You would have to be lucky to find a body that might happen to have been a location within the structure next to a support carrying beam that would shield them.
The recovery team will soon be in hazmat attire as time an temperature takes its toll.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
As I mentioned in an earlier post a friend who owns a structural engineering firm declines to get involved with high rise condos due to legal liability. Another engineer friend noted that it is not possible to build a high rise without subsequent issues.


This legal liability becomes a major issue. When you can not inspect during the construction phase it is pretty hard to determine size and positioning of rebar in a concrete beam or other issues years afterward. I am not sure that they will find anyone to inspect in a timely manner or certify the buildings. My guess is that it will have to fall internally within the AHJ or somehow someone will have to set up an LLC.

Okie
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:51 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.


It's going to take a while. We didn't know for days (and weeks, even months for 9/11 WTC Towers) the official count for the Oklahoma City Federal Building and WTC Twin Towers.

Rescuers can't just simply collect cadavers (or whatever remains thereof) from a collapsed building. The remains of the building has to be secure for an search and rescue effort to take place. Any hint that the remaining structure of the building may be unsafe and the effort has to be called off until the building can be re-secured.

Plane crashes without 3rd party fatalities are easier to count since there's already a manifest of souls on board. You don't have that with building disasters.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.




Really? How do you possibly think an airplane search with a hollow composite/Alluminum/Steel body compares to 12-15 floors of pancaked 12 inch think concrete floors with many household items and people?


Also essentially all plane crashes are at some degree of high speed. Even a crash on landing is 130 knots which is pretty fast, the accident tends to explode the plane and thus the passengers. Not so here as there was no inherent movement with the exception of gravity.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:22 am

Based on the additional documentation out today this is just a top to bottom failure by the condo association. Primary maintenance was not done for years, and even with the dire engineering report in 2018, hardly anything moved in the 3 years since. This is why you keep costs down from the start and fix problems when first spotted.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:39 am

StarAC17 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TokyoImperialPa wrote:
I think it is safe to say that around 150+ people are dead. Another fact that is quite astonishing from my perspective is how long it is taking to find bodies in the ruble. I think people are quite familiar with plane crashes and this is a far easier job to search through.




Really? How do you possibly think an airplane search with a hollow composite/Alluminum/Steel body compares to 12-15 floors of pancaked 12 inch think concrete floors with many household items and people?


Also essentially all plane crashes are at some degree of high speed. Even a crash on landing is 130 knots which is pretty fast, the accident tends to explode the plane and thus the passengers. Not so here as there was no inherent movement with the exception of gravity.



In plane crashes, the survivors and search and rescue is usually rather quick . In building collapses, they give time to try to help survivors survive, by not disturbing the site too much. Once a week passes we will see this site go into recover mode, and in that phase, more material will be moved.
 
CometII
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:36 pm

This account is a bit disturbing, if it is to be taken face value (which one should not given how notoriously bad memories can be especially of time during traumatic events):

https://fundingnewsasia.com/mother-and- ... ide-condo/

I pulled the link from this website in order to paste a link here, but this is also reported on CNN's ticker on the event (which I did not paste since the news ticker will push this report down after a few hours).

If this timeline is to be believed, the resident claims she and her children saw a direct visual of the garage collapsing at 1:10 am. This is after she had been hearing knocking sounds several minutes before and had actually gone to inform the security guard of the unusual "construction" noise from the neighbors, as she put it.

Didn't the building collapse at 1:30am? Is this just an incorrect time quote either by the witness or the reporter? Because if this *were* to be proven accurate, that means there as at least 20 minutes between this event and the final collapse. We all know what this would mean in terms of instrumenting some sort of partial evacuation by sounding the alarms.
Anyone have any more on this?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:09 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Condo owners are noted for being averse to major assessments for maintenance and repairs. If there was a $90 million bill for the pool area deck, and say another $90 million for the cracks in the vertical and horizontal concrete in the garage levels, that could mean repairs costing more than the value of the units. I suspect anything much over 25% of unit value would begin to look like bankruptcy for the building after taking into account mortgages due. It could be enough to make many fatalistic.



https://www.bestofluxuryrealty.com/Surf ... s-For-Sale

then click on past sales, a one-bedroom condo goes for 350 to 400k two-bedroom 500k four-bedroom units went for nearly 3 million. three bedrooms for 1 million These people had money. The repair bill was 9 million, not 90 million. there are 136 units that still 69k per unit if they had done the repairs back in 2018. I think the new estimate was 15m which would be 114k per unit. Not sure if the association was setting aside funds, to repair this from the residence monthly maintenance fees. They had to know the longer they delayed the repairs, the more damage could be done and the more expensive they would be. You have to seriously wonder about their mindset, seems to me they didn't understand the seriousness of the report. I wonder if those in the association in the know decided to sell. There is a story here, but we probably won't hear it.
https://www.voanews.com/usa/miami-build ... irs-needed
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:12 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... -collapse/

An extensive discussion, along with videos, photographs, architectural diagrams and sketches by several structural engineers. They all caution that this is very preliminary, and determining actual time lines and causes could take months.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:15 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Condo owners are noted for being averse to major assessments for maintenance and repairs. If there was a $90 million bill for the pool area deck, and say another $90 million for the cracks in the vertical and horizontal concrete in the garage levels, that could mean repairs costing more than the value of the units. I suspect anything much over 25% of unit value would begin to look like bankruptcy for the building after taking into account mortgages due. It could be enough to make many fatalistic.



https://www.bestofluxuryrealty.com/Surf ... s-For-Sale

then click on past sales, a one-bedroom condo goes for 350 to 400k two-bedroom 500k four-bedroom units went for nearly 3 million. three bedrooms for 1 million These people had money. The repair bill was 9 million, not 90 million. there are 136 units that still 69k per unit if they had done the repairs back in 2018. I think the new estimate was 15m which would be 114k per unit. Not sure if the association was setting aside funds, to repair this from the residence monthly maintenance fees. They had to know the longer they delayed the repairs, the more damage could be done and the more expensive they would be. You have to seriously wonder about their mindset, seems to me they didn't understand the seriousness of the report. I wonder if those in the association in the know decided to sell. There is a story here, but we probably won't hear it.
https://www.voanews.com/usa/miami-build ... irs-needed


I heard that the residents were going to pay $25,000 per unit for a special assessment to fix the needed repairs so I am thinking the condo corp was securing some degree of financing that would be passed through to the owners through regular maintenance fees. However I only heard this on CNN last night, this article shows the fees as up to at minimum 80k per resident depending on the size of the unit.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfs ... index.html
 
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Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 15716
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:27 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Condo owners are noted for being averse to major assessments for maintenance and repairs. If there was a $90 million bill for the pool area deck, and say another $90 million for the cracks in the vertical and horizontal concrete in the garage levels, that could mean repairs costing more than the value of the units. I suspect anything much over 25% of unit value would begin to look like bankruptcy for the building after taking into account mortgages due. It could be enough to make many fatalistic.



https://www.bestofluxuryrealty.com/Surf ... s-For-Sale

then click on past sales, a one-bedroom condo goes for 350 to 400k two-bedroom 500k four-bedroom units went for nearly 3 million. three bedrooms for 1 million These people had money. The repair bill was 9 million, not 90 million. there are 136 units that still 69k per unit if they had done the repairs back in 2018. I think the new estimate was 15m which would be 114k per unit. Not sure if the association was setting aside funds, to repair this from the residence monthly maintenance fees. They had to know the longer they delayed the repairs, the more damage could be done and the more expensive they would be. You have to seriously wonder about their mindset, seems to me they didn't understand the seriousness of the report. I wonder if those in the association in the know decided to sell. There is a story here, but we probably won't hear it.
https://www.voanews.com/usa/miami-build ... irs-needed


I heard that the residents were going to pay $25,000 per unit for a special assessment to fix the needed repairs so I am thinking the condo corp was securing some degree of financing that would be passed through to the owners through regular maintenance fees. However I only heard this on CNN last night, this article shows the fees as up to at minimum 80k per resident depending on the size of the unit.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfs ... index.html


Just think how much cheaper it would have been if they fixed the seawater incursions of the garage and pool area in the 1990s. Morons :boggled:
 
extender
Posts: 952
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:30 pm

This is a bit long, but very informative regarding the actual building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrP-Zl7NHzE

This place was a timebomb.
 
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Aaron747
Topic Author
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:03 pm

extender wrote:
This is a bit long, but very informative regarding the actual building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrP-Zl7NHzE

This place was a timebomb.


Wowsers, what a presentation. The place was beyond jacked.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13844
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
This is a bit long, but very informative regarding the actual building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrP-Zl7NHzE

This place was a timebomb.


Wowsers, what a presentation. The place was beyond jacked.



Those pictures and the details of what previous contractors have done and failed to do are going to be scrutinized heavily for awhile. I can hear it in his voice about each of the details that concerns him, and as in all tragedies, there are a system of issues that it appears were patched and overlooked and improperly scrutinized. Lots of folks had their hands in this one.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4986
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:21 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... story.html
dampen brewing opposition.

“This will be a challenging time for all of us at Champlain Tower South,” it said. “Our building has been neglected for some time and we have to begin preparing for our upcoming Recertification. The board is working very hard to find ways to meet the desperate needs of the building. It would be irresponsible to continue to ignore these needs.”


Condo residents are often noted for unwillingness to pay for needed maintenance. Sometimes we don't need to blame the federal, state, or local government. Sometimes, as per Cassius to Brutus, the fault does not lie in the stars. I have had people in our condo complaining about the cost for needed repairs. They drive a Porsche and a Lexus. I was polite, but pissed. Washington State has had to pay out millions for lax permitting in liability claims for cliff collapses - probably to the same persons or families of those who protested to the zoning which would have prevented the development.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8088
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:49 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/majority-of-florida-condo-board-quit-in-2019-as-squabbling-residents-dragged-out-plans-for-repairs/2021/06/30/43592282-d98e-11eb-ae62-2d07d7df83bd_story.html
dampen brewing opposition.

“This will be a challenging time for all of us at Champlain Tower South,” it said. “Our building has been neglected for some time and we have to begin preparing for our upcoming Recertification. The board is working very hard to find ways to meet the desperate needs of the building. It would be irresponsible to continue to ignore these needs.”


Condo residents are often noted for unwillingness to pay for needed maintenance. Sometimes we don't need to blame the federal, state, or local government. Sometimes, as per Cassius to Brutus, the fault does not lie in the stars. I have had people in our condo complaining about the cost for needed repairs. They drive a Porsche and a Lexus. I was polite, but pissed. Washington State has had to pay out millions for lax permitting in liability claims for cliff collapses - probably to the same persons or families of those who protested to the zoning which would have prevented the development.


Which is exactly why you don’t put the fate of your life and your property at the discretion of others. They couldn’t care about your interests.
 
cpd
Posts: 6792
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:58 am

And another example of building problems, although this is a new building - about 800m away from where my work is:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-01/ ... /100255704

I would ride to work past that building a lot of mornings. 9 Hassall Street Parramatta. We've had a few of these issues in Sydney. The Opal Tower (Sydney Olympic Park) had its problems, others too. We haven't had any collapse yet, but this kind of stuff keeps happening. Building safety has to be more strictly enforced.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1216
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:11 am

Aaron747 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:


https://www.bestofluxuryrealty.com/Surf ... s-For-Sale

then click on past sales, a one-bedroom condo goes for 350 to 400k two-bedroom 500k four-bedroom units went for nearly 3 million. three bedrooms for 1 million These people had money. The repair bill was 9 million, not 90 million. there are 136 units that still 69k per unit if they had done the repairs back in 2018. I think the new estimate was 15m which would be 114k per unit. Not sure if the association was setting aside funds, to repair this from the residence monthly maintenance fees. They had to know the longer they delayed the repairs, the more damage could be done and the more expensive they would be. You have to seriously wonder about their mindset, seems to me they didn't understand the seriousness of the report. I wonder if those in the association in the know decided to sell. There is a story here, but we probably won't hear it.
https://www.voanews.com/usa/miami-build ... irs-needed


I heard that the residents were going to pay $25,000 per unit for a special assessment to fix the needed repairs so I am thinking the condo corp was securing some degree of financing that would be passed through to the owners through regular maintenance fees. However I only heard this on CNN last night, this article shows the fees as up to at minimum 80k per resident depending on the size of the unit.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfs ... index.html


Just think how much cheaper it would have been if they fixed the seawater incursions of the garage and pool area in the 1990s. Morons :boggled:


Exactly, when water is not contained, you must fix it or else!

My view of this is that f'n pool was leaking 100-1000 gallons per day for >20 years. This lazy idiotic problem ended up killing half the people in the building. Duh.

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