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Aaron747
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Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:19 pm

A very rare event overnight in South Florida - collapse of a multistory residential building. Low-rise buildings fail more often due to how they are constructed, but even that is quite rare. Hopefully authorities in Miami-Dade can quickly determine the cause.

“Apparently when the building came down it pancaked, so there’s just not a lot of voids that they are finding or seeing from the outside,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said on NBC’s “Today Show.”

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/mi ... index.html

Meanwhile, a bridge in DC collapsed onto I-295, just in time for Congress to meet about infrastructure.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/06/6-injured-a ... ses-i-295/

Perhaps with this spate of structural failures it's time for 'inspector' to become a cool job again. It's ridiculous for any of this to be happening in a first-world nation.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:23 pm

What do you think caused this collapse? How are you aware that low-rise buildings fail more often than high rise? How long has the inspector job not been "cool"?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:26 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
What do you think caused this collapse? How are you aware that low-rise buildings fail more often than high rise? How long has the inspector job not been "cool"?


Man you totally beat that guy to it :lol:
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:46 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
A very rare event overnight in South Florida - collapse of a multistory residential building. Low-rise buildings fail more often due to how they are constructed, but even that is quite rare. Hopefully authorities in Miami-Dade can quickly determine the cause.

“Apparently when the building came down it pancaked, so there’s just not a lot of voids that they are finding or seeing from the outside,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said on NBC’s “Today Show.”

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/mi ... index.html

Meanwhile, a bridge in DC collapsed onto I-295, just in time for Congress to meet about infrastructure.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/06/6-injured-a ... ses-i-295/

Perhaps with this spate of structural failures it's time for 'inspector' to become a cool job again. It's ridiculous for any of this to be happening in a first-world nation.


The soon-to-be-passed bipartisan infrastructure bill won't address private property, but yes, it's probably worth revisiting rules regarding structural inspections. All things considered, that building was not "old" by Miami Beach standards as it was built in the 1980s, but looked rather dilapidated and worn.

At least with the infrastructure bill, perhaps this will provide provisions on expanding inspector jobs so they can catch things like the I-295 pedestrian bridge in D.C. or the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis, and just as important, providing necessary and recurrent training to ensure we don't have another I-40 Memphis situation.
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:56 pm

A lot of those old buildings have been showing signs of structural degradation. When the rebar becomes corroded and doesn't bond to the concrete, it is only a matter of time. The weather hasn't been helping either. 51 unaccounted for at this time.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/fl ... -surfside/
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:34 pm

Surveillance video:

https://youtu.be/GXLQxEJz0Tw
 
ltbewr
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:17 pm

Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:18 pm

extender wrote:
A lot of those old buildings have been showing signs of structural degradation. When the rebar becomes corroded and doesn't bond to the concrete, it is only a matter of time. The weather hasn't been helping either. 51 unaccounted for at this time.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/fl ... -surfside/


The daytime photos are indeed revealing - the building had definitely been looked after quite poorly.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:23 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.


Even with modern codes, there can be failure to design/locate piles correctly. Pretty infamous in CA is the Millenium Tower in SF, a 58-story residential building where some units sold for over $5 million when the building opened. Around five years ago they found the building was both sinking and leaning, and the culprit was inadequate piles. Though quite deep at 90 feet, the water table in that part of downtown is significant and nearby buildings use even deeper piles. The fix for the building currently being implemented runs into nine figures.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
What do you think caused this collapse? How are you aware that low-rise buildings fail more often than high rise? How long has the inspector job not been "cool"?


Man you totally beat that guy to it :lol:

He forgot to add if the original poster had ever been in the condo complex. ;)
 
889091
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:12 pm

extender wrote:
Surveillance video:

https://youtu.be/GXLQxEJz0Tw


Looked like footage from a controlled demolition. Have they completely ruled out foul play?
 
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ER757
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:39 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.

That sounds like a real possibility - sinkholes are pretty common in Florida.
In the story about the bridge collapse, they said a truck hit it - it isn't like it fell down on its own.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:16 pm

When I was watching coverage of this early this morning, it took a little while before I realized exactly what had happened.

At first, looking at some of the pictures on Twitter, I thought that a "corner" part of the building had fallen forward.

But the hard reality is, it was more like an entire section of the building pancaked straight down.

Image
https://abcnews.go.com/US/building-part ... d=78459018

ABC News reported:

Burkett, the Surfside mayor, told reporters that the condominium was built in the 1980s and was believed to be substantially full at the time of the partial collapse. The building was undergoing roof work, he said.
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:27 pm

That whole section buckled in what seems to be two steps, seconds apart.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:42 pm

I stayed at the blue green hotel right next door and have many images of this building from quite recently. Kind of eerie…

Jeremy
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:51 pm

extender wrote:
Surveillance video:

https://youtu.be/GXLQxEJz0Tw


Here is the source for the video from Andy Slater / Fox Sports 640

https://twitter.com/AndySlater/status/1 ... 7964595202?
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.


Even with modern codes, there can be failure to design/locate piles correctly. Pretty infamous in CA is the Millenium Tower in SF, a 58-story residential building where some units sold for over $5 million when the building opened. Around five years ago they found the building was both sinking and leaning, and the culprit was inadequate piles. Though quite deep at 90 feet, the water table in that part of downtown is significant and nearby buildings use even deeper piles. The fix for the building currently being implemented runs into nine figures.


There is also the Citigroup Center high-rise building in New York. An architecture student who recalculated wind loads discovered that the building was inherently unstable under probable scenarios, while the building code, at the time, only demanded that the building be stable if winds hit broad sides of the building. Wind hitting the edges didn't have to be calculated at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citigroup_Center - see heading "Engineering crisis of 1978"
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:43 pm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/inv ... 778631002/

Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say

A Florida high rise that collapsed early Thursday was determined to be unstable a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University.

The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a 2020 study conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University.


There's usually cracks in the wall when foundation issues are present.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:56 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2021/06/24/building-collapse-miami-structure-had-been-sinking-into-earth/7778631002/

Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say

A Florida high rise that collapsed early Thursday was determined to be unstable a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University.

The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a 2020 study conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University.


There's usually cracks in the wall when foundation issues are present.


Say what the what...?? Article is behind a paywall. The building was found unstable by whom? If that was the city, they're looking at considerable liability since the structure was still occupied.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:59 am

 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:02 am

NIKV69 wrote:


From that article:
In 2015, a lawsuit alleged building management failed to maintain an outside wall, resulting in water damage and cracks. The owner who filed that suit had previously sued over the same issue, according to a court filing. The management company paid for damages in the earlier case, according to records.

Cracked walls or shifting foundations can be clues that sinking has affected the stability of a structure, according to Matthys Levy, a consulting engineer, professor at Columbia University and author of “Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail.”


Cheapo owners cutting corners and the previous mayor playing major ass-cover - not a good sign. This was totally avoidable.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:04 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2021/06/24/building-collapse-miami-structure-had-been-sinking-into-earth/7778631002/

Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say

A Florida high rise that collapsed early Thursday was determined to be unstable a year ago, according to a researcher at Florida International University.

The building, which was constructed in 1981, has been sinking at an alarming rate since the 1990s, according to a 2020 study conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University.


There's usually cracks in the wall when foundation issues are present.


Say what the what...?? Article is behind a paywall. The building was found unstable by whom? If that was the city, they're looking at considerable liability since the structure was still occupied.


Sorry. I am not a USA Today subscriber, and there's no pay wall when I visit the link.
 
Cadet985
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:30 am

889091 wrote:
extender wrote:
Surveillance video:

https://youtu.be/GXLQxEJz0Tw


Looked like footage from a controlled demolition. Have they completely ruled out foul play?


When I saw the video, I thought it looked incredibly similar to an implosion.

Marc
 
Max Q
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:11 am

Several reports say this building was just about to have its ‘40 year inspection’


I wonder how often other inspections have been done ?
 
Newark727
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:15 am

Cadet985 wrote:
889091 wrote:

Looked like footage from a controlled demolition. Have they completely ruled out foul play?


When I saw the video, I thought it looked incredibly similar to an implosion.

Marc


Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:57 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
A very rare event overnight in South Florida - collapse of a multistory residential building. Low-rise buildings fail more often due to how they are constructed, but even that is quite rare. Hopefully authorities in Miami-Dade can quickly determine the cause.

“Apparently when the building came down it pancaked, so there’s just not a lot of voids that they are finding or seeing from the outside,” Surfside Mayor Charles Burkett said on NBC’s “Today Show.”

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/mi ... index.html

Meanwhile, a bridge in DC collapsed onto I-295, just in time for Congress to meet about infrastructure.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/06/6-injured-a ... ses-i-295/

Perhaps with this spate of structural failures it's time for 'inspector' to become a cool job again. It's ridiculous for any of this to be happening in a first-world nation.


The soon-to-be-passed bipartisan infrastructure bill won't address private property, but yes, it's probably worth revisiting rules regarding structural inspections. All things considered, that building was not "old" by Miami Beach standards as it was built in the 1980s, but looked rather dilapidated and worn.

At least with the infrastructure bill, perhaps this will provide provisions on expanding inspector jobs so they can catch things like the I-295 pedestrian bridge in D.C. or the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis, and just as important, providing necessary and recurrent training to ensure we don't have another I-40 Memphis situation.


Not entirely sure what caused this but I have a degree in Civil Engineering (don't currently work in the field) and one of the lessons we were taught is that regulations exist due to for a lack of better word choice. Past F*ckups. (usually non-intentional in the engineering world). Those regulations should be maintained even if memories are short. Building codes are a prime example of this and need to be maintained and updated continuously.

People (mostly conservatives) like to complain about regulation but it exists because somebody messed up. If the Titanic didn't sink we wouldn't have lifeboats for everyone on ships. The comet disasters made airplane windows round/oval and made a redundant strip of rivets that save all but one life in Aloha Airlines Flight 243 (regulations improved after this). The Halo in F1 is there to ensure a driver's head doesn't get cut off in a crash and which is why Charles Leclerc and Romain Grosjean are still racing today.

This being A.net we celebrate regulations in regards to aviation and this tragedy needs to be investigated to learn from it.

Aaron747 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.


Even with modern codes, there can be failure to design/locate piles correctly. Pretty infamous in CA is the Millenium Tower in SF, a 58-story residential building where some units sold for over $5 million when the building opened. Around five years ago they found the building was both sinking and leaning, and the culprit was inadequate piles. Though quite deep at 90 feet, the water table in that part of downtown is significant and nearby buildings use even deeper piles. The fix for the building currently being implemented runs into nine figures.


So I am happy the Millennium tower came up because a friend showed me a documentary on this and I knew from my studies that whoever thought that it was a good idea to not extend foundations in of high-rises San Francisco to hard till or bedrock should be in jail (earthquake risk excluded). We know from earthquakes in 1908 and 1989 that when you shake reclaimed land it liquifies (mistake one) also reclaimed land is not interlocking gravel or granite which makes high-rises/skyscrapers in Manhattan work so well as an example. Anything south of central park is a big piece of rock essentially. It settles if a load is applied. Sand and silt (what reclaimed land usually is) can't support anything beyond a two-story house so if you want to build large buildings in areas that don't accommodate it you need to do piles or caissons to deep foundations that cost a lot of money. Done right those buildings aren't moving but cutting corners ends of costing more in the end and unfortunately this costed lives and the Millennium tower has not.

You can blame climate change all you want but in Florida the water is right there and was in 1980 as well had a sinkhole happened with an adequate foundation there might have been some damage but not enough to cause a pancaking collapse of a structure.

extender wrote:
A lot of those old buildings have been showing signs of structural degradation. When the rebar becomes corroded and doesn't bond to the concrete, it is only a matter of time. The weather hasn't been helping either. 51 unaccounted for at this time.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/fl ... -surfside/


This too could have been the cause as nothing corrodes rebar and concrete like saltwater and had the failure been in an upper floor and the building was a hollow structure then it would have pancaked also. A similar example would be the world trade centre on 9-11 the upper floors would have been enough to collapse the lower ones quickly as the structure is hollow.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:


From that article:
In 2015, a lawsuit alleged building management failed to maintain an outside wall, resulting in water damage and cracks. The owner who filed that suit had previously sued over the same issue, according to a court filing. The management company paid for damages in the earlier case, according to records.

Cracked walls or shifting foundations can be clues that sinking has affected the stability of a structure, according to Matthys Levy, a consulting engineer, professor at Columbia University and author of “Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail.”


Cheapo owners cutting corners and the previous mayor playing major ass-cover - not a good sign. This was totally avoidable.


Think I heard no HOA as well so no protection.
 
extender
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:26 pm

Law is a bit different in Florida, regulatory oversight for HOA;s is slight. Condo associations on the other hand, are regulated. Condo associations are corrupt as hell, and few of are run properly. I had a buddy that lived about two miles south of where this took place. Back then, his maintenance alone was $850/mo, and they got hit with a special assessment to make up for what budgeted reserves couldn't cover. The total came out to $ 1800/mo. The president of this association always had to buy up units that were being foreclosed. There were allegations of misconduct, but I don't know where that stopped. A few visits to their place revealed chipped concrete on the basement parking lot walls, cracks, exposed rebar that was rusting. I fear that what happened in Surfside is ripe for many other properties.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:46 pm

extender wrote:
Law is a bit different in Florida, regulatory oversight for HOA;s is slight. Condo associations on the other hand, are regulated. Condo associations are corrupt as hell, and few of are run properly. I had a buddy that lived about two miles south of where this took place. Back then, his maintenance alone was $850/mo, and they got hit with a special assessment to make up for what budgeted reserves couldn't cover. The total came out to $ 1800/mo. The president of this association always had to buy up units that were being foreclosed. There were allegations of misconduct, but I don't know where that stopped. A few visits to their place revealed chipped concrete on the basement parking lot walls, cracks, exposed rebar that was rusting. I fear that what happened in Surfside is ripe for many other properties.


I think everyone here can agree these crooks need to be taken to the cleaners before their malfeasance claims more lives.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:17 pm

There is no excuse for corrupt HOAs. That said, maintaining high rise buildings is expensive (guess how I know? LOL). It is premature to assign blame or cause for the collapse (although I see attorneys are already at it). It sounds like the city and the federal government will step up.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:25 pm

Max Q wrote:
Several reports say this building was just about to have its ‘40 year inspection’


I wonder how often other inspections have been done ?


Other reports say that the 40 year re-certification inspection had already begun.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:55 pm

ER757 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Another site I visited had a post suggesting a 'sinkhole' may have triggered this collapse, indeed it could be a likely explanation. The water table is near the surface in that area, much of the soil in the area is limestone that dissolves easily in water that trigger a sinkhole. As the building was constructed in 1980 or so, it may not have the deep piles to support the structure as required in later buildings. This is likely to become more common in the region due to the rising sea waters from the Global Warming Crises.

That sounds like a real possibility - sinkholes are pretty common in Florida.
In the story about the bridge collapse, they said a truck hit it - it isn't like it fell down on its own.


They're nearly unheard of in South Florida, and probably never have happened on the beachside. Now, you want sinkholes? Tampa to Orlando and north is sinkhole central.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:20 pm

Death toll in Florida collapse rises to 4; 159 still missing

https://apnews.com/article/florida-cond ... 3301e7a487

Video of the collapse showed the center of the building appearing to tumble down first and a section nearest to the ocean teetering and coming down seconds later, as a huge dust cloud swallowed the neighborhood.

About half the building’s roughly 130 units were affected, and rescuers used cherry-pickers to evacuate at least 35 people from the still-intact areas of the building in the first hours after the collapse. But with 159 still unaccounted for, work could go on for days.
 
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seb146
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:39 am

Wasn't there a cheesy disaster movie from the 1970s about a condo collapsing from a category 3 hurricane? Barbara Eden maybe was in it? Just throwin' it out there. Life imitates art.
 
CometII
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:21 am

www.miamiherald.com

Looking at the reports both on paper and tv and online, the diversity of the posible victims is stunning. Snowbirds, local residents, retireees, newcomers. Jewish, Gay, Black, from Latin America, Europe. Models, surgeons, bankers, even relatives of prominent political families in some countries. I guess it is to be expected for tragedies when they happen in places like Miami, New York, or LA, but this is an international event being followed closely in many places. There clearly needs to be a major and massive investigation into this. Unsafe high density living structures cannot be tolerated in the USA.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:41 pm

Today's Washington Post has 2 or 3 articles you may want to read. Here is a longer quote from one on the buildings structure.

City officials released the report from consultant Frank Morabito late Friday, as investigators look to offer a definitive explanation of a collapse that still has 159 people unaccounted.

The engineer said the building’s original design, one in which waterproofing was laid flat and not sloped to allow water to run off, was a “major error.” Morabito wrote that “failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially."

Replacing the waterproofing would cause a major disturbance to residents and prove to be “extremely expensive,” he said at the time.

Morabito also pointed out the “abundant” cracking and crumbling that was apparent in the walls, columns and beams of the building’s underground parking garage.

“Though some of this damage is minor, most of the concrete deterioration needs to be repaired in a timely fashion,” he wrote.

While he did not indicate the condo was at risk of collapsing, the consultant noted that “maintaining the structural integrity” of the 136 units meant completing the repairs.


From other reports, the building was doing some minor sinking, there was not adequate sloping on some concrete horizontal elements and that combined with the above quote meant that the structural safety of the building was compromised. That does not necessarily mean the building was known to be dangerous and should have been evacuated. It does mean that further studies and action should have been in the works. Water infiltration in high rise buildings is difficult, and even more so in residences. A friend who heads a structural engineering firm tells me he will not work on high rise condos, too much exposure to being sued.

I hope one of the civil engineers or any architects on this forum will comment on these reports.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:53 pm

High rise is relative though, it's not that high. Which is maybe why despite this alarming description
“abundant” cracking and crumbling that was apparent in the walls, columns and beams of the building’s underground parking garage.


It wasn't evacuated and demolished right away.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
High rise is relative though, it's not that high. Which is maybe why despite this alarming description
“abundant” cracking and crumbling that was apparent in the walls, columns and beams of the building’s underground parking garage.


It wasn't evacuated and demolished right away.


It doesn’t sound like demolition was the recommended remedy, just structural restoration work.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:29 am

A story that you'd expect to see on the cover of the National Enquirer.... or featured in a Twilight Zone episode.

Grandson says grandparents landline has called 16 times since collapse, but no one on other end

From WPLG Local 10:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZBAWISUVxQ
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15780
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:36 pm

The City government where this condo building is located have released a number of documents on it. Among them was a report done about 3 years ago that there were significant problem spots, especially below the pool area that were at risk with a total estimate for repairs was just over $9 Million. Considering that would mean $100's per month added to the common charges/maintenance charges for each unit for many years, the Condo board was likely trying to delay until the current '40 year' inspection was completed. Now the losses will be in the $10's of millions, maybe $100 million or even more with all the likely dead victims. https://www.aol.com/news/building-colla ... 23421.html

One thing I don't get is how the building's insurers didn't get that report or ignored it, you would think they would want to reduce their risk. I know after a serious fire in an apartment building in my 5 building complex, all buildings had to have major upgrades in fire safety including smoke detectors in the halls, 'pull' alarms, emergency lighting installed.
 
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alberchico
Posts: 3351
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:26 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The City government where this condo building is located have released a number of documents on it. Among them was a report done about 3 years ago that there were significant problem spots, especially below the pool area that were at risk with a total estimate for repairs was just over $9 Million. Considering that would mean $100's per month added to the common charges/maintenance charges for each unit for many years, the Condo board was likely trying to delay until the current '40 year' inspection was completed. Now the losses will be in the $10's of millions, maybe $100 million or even more with all the likely dead victims. https://www.aol.com/news/building-colla ... 23421.html

One thing I don't get is how the building's insurers didn't get that report or ignored it, you would think they would want to reduce their risk. I know after a serious fire in an apartment building in my 5 building complex, all buildings had to have major upgrades in fire safety including smoke detectors in the halls, 'pull' alarms, emergency lighting installed.


You bring up an excellent point. The fact that the burden of paying for this huge job would fall on the apartment owners probably caused management to postpone the work for as long as possible.

A similar thing happened in my co-op. There was a drainage problem in the rear patio that lead to all the water streaming down to the garage below causing structural issues with the walls and columns. The management company tried doing minor cosmetic work for several years hoping that the problem would go away but it kept getting worse. Finally it got to the point that they realized that the city might order the garage to be vacated due to the structural damage, depriving them of much needed revenue. Only then did they get serious about renovations, forcing all shareholders to pay a special $1,000 a month assessment fee for a year to pay for the work. Boy were people pissed off about that.

I have to wonder if the condo owners were aware about the massive amount of expensive renovations that were coming down the pipeline and complained to management to postpone it as much as possible.
 
wingman
Posts: 4157
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:34 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
A story that you'd expect to see on the cover of the National Enquirer.... or featured in a Twilight Zone episode.

Grandson says grandparents landline has called 16 times since collapse, but no one on other end

From WPLG Local 10:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZBAWISUVxQ


Exactly, it’s the leading story on Fox News online too.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13836
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:50 pm

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 96233.html

Six engineering experts interviewed by the Miami Herald on Saturday said that based on the publicly available evidence — including building plans, recent inspection reports, photos of debris, an eyewitness, and a surveillance video of the collapse — a structural column or concrete slab beneath the pool deck likely gave way first, causing the deck to collapse into the garage below, forming a crater beneath the bulky midsection of the tower, which then caved in on itself.

Appearing to reinforce the experts’ theory is the story of a resident who called her husband moments before the collapse to tell him she could see a crater in the pool area from the fourth-floor balcony of their ocean-front apartment. Then the line went dead, said Mike Stratton, who was out of town at the time. His wife, Cassie, is among the 156 people who are still unaccounted for.

Greg Batista, a professional engineer who specializes in concrete repair and worked on the Surfside condo’s pool deck in 2017, said that the way the building fell points to an initial collapse in the pool deck area. Structural engineer and retired building inspector Gene Santiago agreed that was a probable trigger and pointed to a 2018 inspection, first reported by the Herald, that noted “major structural damage” below the pool deck.




So the pool deck area had issues. I wonder if the stresses over the years and possible Salt Water intrusion ( Andrew) may have caused issues there. It will be an interesting investigation. It is a horrible tragedy , and there will need to be answers and accountability as to why evidence over the years of instability were not adequately addressed or inspected.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14641
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:56 pm

Strange that Greg Batista would give his opinion if he worked on repairs in 2017 !
 
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Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:03 am

alberchico wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
The City government where this condo building is located have released a number of documents on it. Among them was a report done about 3 years ago that there were significant problem spots, especially below the pool area that were at risk with a total estimate for repairs was just over $9 Million. Considering that would mean $100's per month added to the common charges/maintenance charges for each unit for many years, the Condo board was likely trying to delay until the current '40 year' inspection was completed. Now the losses will be in the $10's of millions, maybe $100 million or even more with all the likely dead victims. https://www.aol.com/news/building-colla ... 23421.html

One thing I don't get is how the building's insurers didn't get that report or ignored it, you would think they would want to reduce their risk. I know after a serious fire in an apartment building in my 5 building complex, all buildings had to have major upgrades in fire safety including smoke detectors in the halls, 'pull' alarms, emergency lighting installed.


You bring up an excellent point. The fact that the burden of paying for this huge job would fall on the apartment owners probably caused management to postpone the work for as long as possible.

A similar thing happened in my co-op. There was a drainage problem in the rear patio that lead to all the water streaming down to the garage below causing structural issues with the walls and columns. The management company tried doing minor cosmetic work for several years hoping that the problem would go away but it kept getting worse. Finally it got to the point that they realized that the city might order the garage to be vacated due to the structural damage, depriving them of much needed revenue. Only then did they get serious about renovations, forcing all shareholders to pay a special $1,000 a month assessment fee for a year to pay for the work. Boy were people pissed off about that.

I have to wonder if the condo owners were aware about the massive amount of expensive renovations that were coming down the pipeline and complained to management to postpone it as much as possible.


Any actions by the owners will be revealed by their correspondence with management in the lawsuits to come. Unless they are busy destroying the paper trail right now...
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4974
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:41 am

Condo owners are noted for being averse to major assessments for maintenance and repairs. If there was a $90 million bill for the pool area deck, and say another $90 million for the cracks in the vertical and horizontal concrete in the garage levels, that could mean repairs costing more than the value of the units. I suspect anything much over 25% of unit value would begin to look like bankruptcy for the building after taking into account mortgages due. It could be enough to make many fatalistic.
 
Airstud
Posts: 4934
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:07 am

ltbewr wrote:
I know after a serious fire in an apartment building in my 5 building complex, all buildings had to have major upgrades in fire safety including smoke detectors in the halls, 'pull' alarms, emergency lighting installed.


Ummmmm...

How did those buildings not have those things already? :boggled:
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15780
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:36 am

Airstud wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
I know after a serious fire in an apartment building in my 5 building complex, all buildings had to have major upgrades in fire safety including smoke detectors in the halls, 'pull' alarms, emergency lighting installed.


Ummmmm...

How did those buildings not have those things already? :boggled:

The buildings were built in about 1966, while some smoke detectors were installed per law, the lighting and pull alarms were not to standards required by insurance companies and updated laws.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4974
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:47 am

I meant to use the $9 million (plus another $9 million) figure. I think my estimate that this could be close to half the value of a condo unit is OK.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6163
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Miami Condo Partially Collapsed

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:22 am

Isn't there a duty by the managers to keep the costs low, by asessing and repairing damages in time - before concrete rebar rusts and repairs get super-duper-expensive?

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