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OA260
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Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:44 pm

The Dutch PM is certainly not holding back with regards to Hungary. Its certainly the strongest public statement that has been made by any member state so far.


Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte has said that Hungary should not be part of the European Union because of its new law banning LGBT content in schools.


www.rte.ie/news/europe/2021/0624/1231085-leaders-lgbtq/
 
extender
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:58 pm

A country gets do decide its own laws. Neighboring countries don't get to decide. The flip side, they can become a pariah, a price to pay for your national viewpoints.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:03 pm

extender wrote:
A country gets do decide its own laws. .


Hungry decided it can't have discrimination when they signed the EU treaty, making the European Human Rights Declaration the law of the land.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
extender
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:34 pm

Well then, there you have it.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
extender wrote:
A country gets do decide its own laws. .


Hungry decided it can't have discrimination when they signed the EU treaty, making the European Human Rights Declaration the law of the land.

Best regards
Thomas


I guess they are telling the EU to go f themselves. Question is can the EU do anything about it??
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:43 pm

I agree with Mark Rutte in this instance. If Hungary, Orban wants to demolish democracy, free media, independent justice system, let have human rights, in general, have a back seat, then fine. It is their country but then take the consequence as well: leave the EU. Hungary signed for all of these rights themselves when signing up for the EU. The EU is the whole package, economic help, single marked, but also value's. They can't eat their cake and have it.

A problem, of course, these middle-eastern European countries are very conservative. Young people have moved to the west to try their luck there and people who stayed are older and in general more conservative.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
extender wrote:
A country gets do decide its own laws. .


Hungry decided it can't have discrimination when they signed the EU treaty, making the European Human Rights Declaration the law of the land.

Best regards
Thomas


I guess they are telling the EU to go f themselves. Question is can the EU do anything about it??


In the end, yes and they will, just takes time.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
extender wrote:
A country gets do decide its own laws. .


Hungry decided it can't have discrimination when they signed the EU treaty, making the European Human Rights Declaration the law of the land.

Best regards
Thomas


I guess they are telling the EU to go f themselves. Question is can the EU do anything about it??


The process is slow, but non-compliance ends with GDP adjusted daily penalty payments that quickly add up into the billions on top of losing their vote. And being a net-receiver withholding payments isn't an option.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:14 pm

The problem is that the moment the EU starts to do something substantial to a member country then it's suddenly the "evil EUSSR come to meddle in OUR affairs". Personally I'm sick of Hungry and Poland doing all they can to stifle progress and do China's bidding.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-eur ... ys-vetoes/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 021-06-04/

Not that I specifically think it should be used in these cases, but I do think that there should be a mechanism for the EU Parliament to be able to expel a member who is not respecting Rule Of Law etc.

tommy1808 wrote:

The process is slow, but non-compliance ends with GDP adjusted daily penalty payments that quickly add up into the billions on top of losing their vote. And being a net-receiver withholding payments isn't an option.


It's a good system but like you say, it's slow.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:48 pm

Just in: apparently Rutte dared Orbán to start the Article 50 procedure in a heated debate: "there is a reason that article 50 exists".

Link in Dutch
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:01 pm

Although I understand the message of Mark Rutte, his timing isn’t great. Sunday the Netherlands will play the match in Budapest. I don’t think the Hungarians will be pleased with the Dutch team and 7,000 supporters……
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:21 am

marcelh wrote:
Sunday the Netherlands will play the match in Budapest. I don’t think the Hungarians will be pleased with the Dutch team and 7,000 supporters……


I doubt they will be pleased with the expected outcome of the match, either.

On the other hand, Hungary isn't pleased with much of anything these days. It is a reprobate of a country.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:37 am

EU leaders seem to be sending out mixed messages: Mark Rutte wanting Hungary out of the EU on the one hand, and Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron sucking-up to Vladimir Putin on the other. Does anyone even know what "European values" mean any more?
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:04 am

Braybuddy wrote:
EU leaders seem to be sending out mixed messages: Mark Rutte wanting Hungary out of the EU on the one hand, and Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron sucking-up to Vladimir Putin on the other. Does anyone even know what "European values" mean any more?


Two different issues. Orban/Hungary is a parasite in the EU and should be dealt with accordingly. Putin is a SOB, but as the saying goes: “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.” Like it or not, Europe is close to Russia, so you have to deal with each other one way or another.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:15 am

marcelh wrote:
Two different issues. Orban/Hungary is a parasite in the EU and should be dealt with accordingly. Putin is a SOB, but as the saying goes: “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.” Like it or not, Europe is close to Russia, so you have to deal with each other one way or another.

Absolute rubbish. You either have priniciples or you do not. :roll:
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:24 am

Braybuddy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Two different issues. Orban/Hungary is a parasite in the EU and should be dealt with accordingly. Putin is a SOB, but as the saying goes: “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.” Like it or not, Europe is close to Russia, so you have to deal with each other one way or another.

Absolute rubbish. You either have priniciples or you do not. :roll:


And you live in a county with principles?
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:26 am

marcelh wrote:
And you live in a county with principles?

I never said I did.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:28 am

Braybuddy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
And you live in a county with principles?

I never said I did.

Then it’s easy to critize “European values” if your country doesn’t have it (other than: me, myself and I)
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:33 am

marcelh wrote:
Then it’s easy to critize “European values” if your country doesn’t have it (other than: me, myself and I)

I doubt if any country has "principles", but it's hypocritical to claim them and them and do the opposite.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:57 am

Braybuddy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Then it’s easy to critize “European values” if your country doesn’t have it (other than: me, myself and I)

I doubt if any country has "principles", but it's hypocritical to claim them and them and do the opposite.


What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas

I'm talking about cosying-up to Putin, while wanting to expel Orban. One is a pale imitation of the other, yet he's the one who's considered toxic.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:27 am

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas

I'm talking about cosying-up to Putin, while wanting to expel Orban. One is a pale imitation of the other, yet he's the one who's considered toxic.


The difference is, of course, Orban wants to be and is in the EU-club with its value's which Orban doesn't want to observe, the Putin regime isn't. What is cozying-up in this context? Talking to? Merkel and Macron are still very critical about the Putin regime, as is right of course. I can't see the hypocrisy you are pointing to, sorry.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

What good did delusional West German Ostpolitik do in 1973? It was only a great propagandist victory for the commies since they . It did not soften up Brezhnev one tiny bit. As I said many times before: Putin was breastfed by Andropov and babysitted by Brezhnev. Repeating the same mistake, expecting different results is a definition of insanity.

marcelh wrote:
Putin is a SOB, but as the saying goes: “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.” Like it or not, Europe is close to Russia, so you have to deal with each other one way or another.


Braybuddy was spot on. Merkel and Macron are sucking up to Putin. The so called Normandy format is a fine example how clueless they are. What did they achieve in 6 or so years by ganging up with Russia against Ukraine? And then they have the nerve to lecture ad nauseum on "European values". :roll:
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:33 am

Braybuddy wrote:
EU leaders seem to be sending out mixed messages: Mark Rutte wanting Hungary out of the EU on the one hand, and Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron sucking-up to Vladimir Putin on the other. Does anyone even know what "European values" mean any more?


Because refusing to talk with Putin has worked so well. Do you propose not talking to China or Saudi Arabia, too?
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:00 am

JJJ wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
EU leaders seem to be sending out mixed messages: Mark Rutte wanting Hungary out of the EU on the one hand, and Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron sucking-up to Vladimir Putin on the other. Does anyone even know what "European values" mean any more?


Because refusing to talk with Putin has worked so well. Do you propose not talking to China or Saudi Arabia, too?


Ideally yes, cutting all ties to those countries would be the way to go but a country like Germany would never do that because we rely on exporting fancy cars to millionaires and billionaires in both of those markets and we rely on the Chinese supply chains so that our beloved industry can keep churning out big margins - imagine the sheer horrors of paying less or no dividends because suddenly all the labor involved in your production process has to be done in (wealthier, usually Western) human rights-compliant countries.

As for Orbán, I'm on board with what Rutte said - live up to the European minimum human rights standards you signed on to or get the hell out, and, ideally, take Poland with you.
The money spent on these net receiver countries would be better used to help Spain / Portugal / Greece / Italy make up for their lost tourist revenues going into the second pandemic summer.

I also agree with Braybuddy to an extent, people need to stop pretending the EU relies on Russia, the only thing we rely on is not having an open war with them, that's it. No Russian gas would actually be a good thing because it would be a practical reason to finally get off our asses towards fully renewable energy generation (because apparently to all those 60+ politicians the threat of impending climate crisis isn't sufficient).
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:15 am

JJJ wrote:
Because refusing to talk with Putin has worked so well.


Talking makes sense, when he's ready to make any concessions. Besides it's not "not talking". Despite Ukraine stalemate, despite poisonings and cyberattacks, despite bomb attacks, Russia has been rewarded by readmission to the Council of Europe thanks to unanimous Italian and minus 2+1 honorable exceptions German and French votes. Germans are like a stuck record calling geopolitical threat a "partner" and stupid enough to increase their dependency on Russia so Putin has more money to continue being a threat to its neighbors.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
[What is cozying-up in this context?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... imir-putin
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:04 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
[What is cozying-up in this context?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... imir-putin


Right, they want to get out of a negative spiral and have a summit. Talking to someone is cozying up in your book? I do not subscribe to that point of view.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:15 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas

I'm talking about cosying-up to Putin, while wanting to expel Orban. One is a pale imitation of the other, yet he's the one who's considered toxic.


One is part of the EU, the other isn’t. If you can’t (or won’t) see that, it’s okay.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Talking to someone is cozying up in your book? I do not subscribe to that point of view.

I do, particularly when you're dealing with someone who treats you beneath contempt.

marcelh wrote:
One is part of the EU, the other isn’t. If you can’t (or won’t) see that, it’s okay.

I think I had that one figured already. Why would someone be a pariah inside a club, yet someone outside -- who's far, far worse -- a buddy?
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:25 pm

Braybuddy wrote:

marcelh wrote:
One is part of the EU, the other isn’t. If you can’t (or won’t) see that, it’s okay.

I think I had that one figured already. Why would someone be a pariah inside a club, yet someone outside -- who's far, far worse -- a buddy?


Buddy? Serious? You must be living in a very simple world: either it’s black or it’s white….
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:30 pm

He should perfectly understand the difference between an EU member and relation with third countries like Russia just by looking how the EU deals with the UK after brexit.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:21 pm

The US and EU are not going to fall into the 20th century trap of treating Russia and China (admittedly both allies briefly during WWII) as the enemy. The do present challenges, they are formidable trade partners, they are being militarily aggressive, but war must be avoided.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:13 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
but war must be avoided.

Putin is already at war with the West. Military war is expensive, and Putin is far to clever for that.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:39 pm

So what's the way forwards in terms of dealing with Putin and getting concessions out of him?
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:59 pm

zkojq wrote:
So what's the way forwards in terms of dealing with Putin and getting concessions out of him?

Waiting till he dies, probably.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:32 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Two different issues. Orban/Hungary is a parasite in the EU and should be dealt with accordingly. Putin is a SOB, but as the saying goes: “keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.” Like it or not, Europe is close to Russia, so you have to deal with each other one way or another.

Absolute rubbish. You either have priniciples or you do not. :roll:


We're talking about expelling Hungary from the EU on the one hand, and improving very bad relations with Russia on another. There is no comparison between the two, we're not offering Russia an EU spot ! Even if Hungary was expelled from the EU, relations with it would still be better than with Russia, there wouldn't be any sanctions against Hungary.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:38 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
zkojq wrote:
So what's the way forwards in terms of dealing with Putin and getting concessions out of him?

Waiting till he dies, probably.


What do you propose we do with the Putin regime's Russia? Ignore them completely?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Right, they want to get out of a negative spiral and have a summit. Talking to someone is cozying up in your book? I do not subscribe to that point of view.


You are only repeating German narrative, which is severely detached from reality. No matter what Putin does... invasion of Ukraine, MH17, Navalny, Nemtsov, Skripal, Vrbetice, cyberattacks... sooner or later Berlin calls for "more dialogue".
As if there was none!
What has the Normandy dialogue with French and German involvement achieved beyond proving that France and Germany should not be trusted when it comes to security and defense matters? Have we already forgotten Borrell's fiasco in Moscow half a year ago? To give him a credit, he seems to have sobered up since from his naivety about Kremlin.
Ministers of foreign affairs are there for the standard talking. That's their role and purpose.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:11 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Right, they want to get out of a negative spiral and have a summit. Talking to someone is cozying up in your book? I do not subscribe to that point of view.


You are only repeating German narrative, which is severely detached from reality. No matter what Putin does... invasion of Ukraine, MH17, Navalny, Nemtsov, Skripal, Vrbetice, cyberattacks... sooner or later Berlin calls for "more dialogue".
As if there was none!
What has the Normandy dialogue with French and German involvement achieved beyond proving that France and Germany should not be trusted when it comes to security and defense matters? Have we already forgotten Borrell's fiasco in Moscow half a year ago? To give him a credit, he seems to have sobered up since from his naivety about Kremlin.
Ministers of foreign affairs are there for the standard talking. That's their role and purpose.


What do you propose we do with the Putin regime's Russia? Ignore them completely?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:26 pm

Maintaining standard communication lines on the embassy and ministerial level is not "ignoring Russia completely". :roll:
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:35 pm

But it's not gonna achieve anything either.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:54 pm

Aesma wrote:
But it's not gonna achieve anything either.

Appeasement never achieved anything.France should know that better than anyone else.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Then it’s easy to critize “European values” if your country doesn’t have it (other than: me, myself and I)

I doubt if any country has "principles", but it's hypocritical to claim them and them and do the opposite.


What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas


Germany has de facto recognizing the annexation of Crimea by continuing Nord Stream 2. It's real politics that accepts the annexation of Crimea and all the bad things that Russia has done and will do.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:26 am

Nation manage difficult relationships. Tweeting does very little to help.
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:45 am

Hungary has a severe policy to keep out any migrants from the Islamic world to pander the voters but also so don't get stuck with the costs to have them reside in their country. Poland isn't far behind and is also pandering to the dominate Roman Catholic Church believers who hate Muslims.
We have seen, even to some extent in The Netherlands, growing 'right wing' movements against the migrants from the Middle East, North and Africa in general from wars, economic crises, Global Climate change, droughts, religious repression and violence.
 
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:52 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Maintaining standard communication lines on the embassy and ministerial level is not "ignoring Russia completely". :roll:


so you want diplomatic relationships, but no summit with Putin? Where do you draw the line? Just curious
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:56 am

THS214 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
I doubt if any country has "principles", but it's hypocritical to claim them and them and do the opposite.


What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas


Germany has de facto recognizing the annexation of Crimea by continuing Nord Stream 2. It's real politics that accepts the annexation of Crimea and all the bad things that Russia has done and will do.


The EU, Germany included, has put sanctions on Russia and some Russians because of the annexation of Crimea. If you were in charge, what would you do? Server all ties, or just economic ones? Should we do the same with Marrocco, Israel, China? Diplomacy is hard.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
marcelh
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:07 am

ltbewr wrote:
We have seen, even to some extent in The Netherlands, growing 'right wing' movements against the migrants from the Middle East, North and Africa in general from wars, economic crises, Global Climate change, droughts, religious repression and violence.

Growing? I beg to differ. This group is about 25percent and isn’t really growing for years. People are switching very easily between parties and are voting more strategically because of the possible coalition. So someone voted last time for PVV can switch to VVD to become the largest party, important to create a new coalition.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Dutch Prime Minister says 'Hungary has no place in EU' after anti-LGBT law

Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:19 am

THS214 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
I doubt if any country has "principles", but it's hypocritical to claim them and them and do the opposite.


What principle would exactly be violated by talking to Putin? I don´t think it is a good idea, but its not like they suggested lifting sanctions or recognizing the annexation of Crimea or such.

best regards
Thomas


Germany has de facto recognizing the annexation of Crimea by continuing Nord Stream 2. It's real politics that accepts the annexation of Crimea and all the bad things that Russia has done and will do.


Everyone has accepted it de facto, even Ukraine, or do you see an army massing at the border with Crimea ?
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