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Kiwirob
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:42 pm

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Americans didn't like 3000 people killed in the WTC either, but they didn't turn tail and do nothing. An omnipotent China is an even bigger downside for other Asian countries.


True you invaded a country which had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, which resulted in destabilising the Middle East for the next 2 decades, all for absolutely no result. Woohoo go team America.


The middle east has been and will continue to be destabilized without the US. The US accomplished the primary goals of disrupting Al-Qaeda and keeping the US safe from the destabilization for awhile.


So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.
 
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casinterest
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

True you invaded a country which had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, which resulted in destabilising the Middle East for the next 2 decades, all for absolutely no result. Woohoo go team America.


The middle east has been and will continue to be destabilized without the US. The US accomplished the primary goals of disrupting Al-Qaeda and keeping the US safe from the destabilization for awhile.


So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.


That is not what I said, but i see how you like to lie about what occurred and roll over for terrorists and complicit governments.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
dfwjim1
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:02 pm

If the United States and China started going head to head over Taiwan I wonder what the possibility of using nuclear weapons would be especially if China was losing the battle?

Of course hope none of this ever happens.
 
johns624
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

True you invaded a country which had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, which resulted in destabilising the Middle East for the next 2 decades, all for absolutely no result. Woohoo go team America.


The middle east has been and will continue to be destabilized without the US. The US accomplished the primary goals of disrupting Al-Qaeda and keeping the US safe from the destabilization for awhile.


So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.
Even without the US, you'd still have Iraq vs Iran, Iraq vs the Kurds, Shiites vs Sunni, Muslims vs Jews vs Christians, plus many more, but it's all the US's fault? Gotcha!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The middle east has been and will continue to be destabilized without the US. The US accomplished the primary goals of disrupting Al-Qaeda and keeping the US safe from the destabilization for awhile.


So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.


That is not what I said, but i see how you like to lie about what occurred and roll over for terrorists and complicit governments.


To be fair, if we hadn’t ‘rolled over for complicit governments’, regime change would have come in Riyadh, not Baghdad.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
johns624
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:56 pm

To play devil's advocate---if Kiwirob is right and we destabilized the Middle East, then they've been so busy killing each other that we probably haven't had as many major terror attacks as we otherwise would've. Not that I believe it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:11 am

johns624 wrote:
To play devil's advocate---if Kiwirob is right and we destabilized the Middle East, then they've been so busy killing each other that we probably haven't had as many major terror attacks as we otherwise would've. Not that I believe it.


There has been plenty of terror, just not coming west out of Pakistan or Afghanistan. Ask Yemenis how their last decade has been. Or any Afghan outside Kabul.

We basically told KSA we’d look the other way on their funding of Islamist schools as long as they provided intel on IS and stepped up proxy war with Iran.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:21 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.


That is not what I said, but i see how you like to lie about what occurred and roll over for terrorists and complicit governments.


To be fair, if we hadn’t ‘rolled over for complicit governments’, regime change would have come in Riyadh, not Baghdad.


Oil demands complicity right ?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13566
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:55 am

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The middle east has been and will continue to be destabilized without the US. The US accomplished the primary goals of disrupting Al-Qaeda and keeping the US safe from the destabilization for awhile.


So turning the Middle East into a war zone resulting in over 1m deaths was acceptable because it kept America safe? That’s disgusting.
Even without the US, you'd still have Iraq vs Iran, Iraq vs the Kurds, Shiites vs Sunni, Muslims vs Jews vs Christians, plus many more, but it's all the US's fault? Gotcha!


Iraq v Iran was long over, Iraq won, Iraq v Kurds was a domestic issue, Shiites v Sunni was kept under control in Iraq by Saddam, the simple thing is it all got a lot worse after the US invaded Iraq, you cannot deny it, denying it just makes you look ridiculous.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:01 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

That is not what I said, but i see how you like to lie about what occurred and roll over for terrorists and complicit governments.


To be fair, if we hadn’t ‘rolled over for complicit governments’, regime change would have come in Riyadh, not Baghdad.


Oil demands complicity right ?


Oil is part of it, America needs wars, they need wars to continue funding the military industrial complex, all those lobbyists and politicians with major defense contractors in their electorates need conflicts to keep feeding the machine. It keeps millions employed, war keeps America relevant.
 
Virtual737
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:14 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
I wonder what the possibility of using nuclear weapons would be especially if China was losing the battle?

Of course hope none of this ever happens.


Or if the USA was losing the battle too. Let's not forget that the USA is the only nation to have ever used nuclear weapons in anger. I'm not judging them in any way for that use, but just pointing out that to consider that it has happened twice, it can happen again.
 
Alias1024
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:31 pm

South Korea would need to be very careful in how they engage in any conflict to defend Taiwan. Their belligerent neighbor to the north is pretty dependent on China for economic support, and I suspect Beijing would lean on Pyongyang to start hostilities and keep South Korea from meaningful contributions to Taiwan’s defense.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
tommy1808
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:26 am

Alias1024 wrote:
South Korea would need to be very careful in how they engage in any conflict to defend Taiwan. Their belligerent neighbor to the north is pretty dependent on China for economic support, and I suspect Beijing would lean on Pyongyang to start hostilities and keep South Korea from meaningful contributions to Taiwan’s defense.


South Korea much rather would have to wonder if they are next, since by similar logic Korea used to be Chinese just as much as Taiwan.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Virtual737
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:

South Korea much rather would have to wonder if they are next, since by similar logic Korea used to be Chinese just as much as Taiwan.

best regards
Thomas


Not quite so clear cut according to some:

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/korea-part-china/
 
tommy1808
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:21 am

Virtual737 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

South Korea much rather would have to wonder if they are next, since by similar logic Korea used to be Chinese just as much as Taiwan.

best regards
Thomas


Not quite so clear cut according to some:

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/korea-part-china/


just as unclear as it is with Taiwan.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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c933103
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:03 am

Alias1024 wrote:
South Korea would need to be very careful in how they engage in any conflict to defend Taiwan. Their belligerent neighbor to the north is pretty dependent on China for economic support, and I suspect Beijing would lean on Pyongyang to start hostilities and keep South Korea from meaningful contributions to Taiwan’s defense.

I question South Korea's willingness to involve themselves into this.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate 求同存異 よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
Fitting foreign event into local context for lessons will only be able to tell local values instead of foreign ones
You're now at your youngest moment in your remaining life
 
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Aesma
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:15 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
If the United States and China started going head to head over Taiwan I wonder what the possibility of using nuclear weapons would be especially if China was losing the battle?

Of course hope none of this ever happens.


Losing would mean a territorial status quo in all likelihood, so nothing really lost, especially for a country that sees itself as an millenia old empire. Lots of face lost of course.

Nuclear war means everyone loses, and I think wouldn't make sense for China, again seeing itself as there for millenia past and future.

Now if you mean nuking Taiwan specifically, then I don't know. The US might not retaliate because of MAD, but it wouldn't gain China much. The world economy would still be in the trash, and now China would be a pariah, having committed genocide on people that just didn't want to be under their control, and did nothing against them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:06 pm

c933103 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
South Korea would need to be very careful in how they engage in any conflict to defend Taiwan. Their belligerent neighbor to the north is pretty dependent on China for economic support, and I suspect Beijing would lean on Pyongyang to start hostilities and keep South Korea from meaningful contributions to Taiwan’s defense.

I question South Korea's willingness to involve themselves into this.
I don't think that South Korea would have much of a choice. North Korea and/or China would make it for them.
 
Cerecl
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
There is nothing to debate. Taiwan never was a part of China, it was only ever was occupied by the same people.

Look, we know your viewpoint about Taiwan and China. But again, while you are entitled to your opinion you are not entitled to your own history. Taiwan was conquered during the Qing dynasty. The local administration was since appointed by the central government. In fact, even after the annexation of Taiwan in 1895 the local resistance force was led by the provincial administrator appointed by the government in Beijing. They have stationed troops in Taiwan, I have visited the tombs of some of these troops who died in Taiwan and buried there. Taiwan would have contributed to taxation of the central government. Yes Qing is a conquest dynasty, but they are still the only recognised government of China during its reign. The Manchurians in power were Chinese in nationality, so were the predominant Han people. Who do you think agreed to the annexation in Treaty of Shimonoseki? Is it Taiwan, or the central Qing government? Of course there is also the 4 year period between 1945 to 1949. How do you think Chiang moved to Taiwan? Did he fight any Taiwanese troop if as you claimed Taiwan was independent? No. he moved without military resistance because his people were already in Taiwan because he was the head of government in control of China.

The thing is, you can argue your point based on what happened over the past 70 odd years. Why twist history to suit your argument when you don't need to??
Last edited by Cerecl on Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cerecl
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Re: How far will the US go to defend Taiwan from Mainland China ?

Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:42 am

johns624 wrote:
I don't think that South Korea would have much of a choice. North Korea and/or China would make it for them.

The last thing China would want is to involve other countries in a hypothetical war with Taiwan and I don't see why South Korea would want to get involved. Unlike Japan, they really don't have particularly strong bond with Taiwan and has no real conflict/bad blood with China. As to North Korea, they are still dependent on China economically. Halting "donation" of food and fuel is just as effective as troops and tanks across the Yalu/Amrok River.
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