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Aaron747
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Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:29 pm

What started as local protests in KZN, the home state of disgraced ex-President Zuma, have now spread like wildfire to Durban, Pretoria, and Johannesburg. Multiple malls and shopping centers have been looted, and police have only made feeble attempts to stop the chaos. The military and SA's patchwork network of private security firms are providing as robust support as possible so far.

Pretty stunning how much damage has been done in just two days - there's no telling how much longer this can continue.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/1 ... uth-africa

https://www.dw.com/en/dozens-killed-in- ... a-58254298

While SA's media continues to compete for analysis on what's driving the rioting, it doesn't really matter whether it's poverty, or COVID, hunger, or anger about Zuma's arrest. They are doing incredible damage to an already fragile economy, where unemployment is north of 30%.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:57 pm

Why would anyone support Zuma? His corruption was impressive.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:09 pm

The slide to becoming Zimbabwe accelerates…. Beautiful country, been there several times, Cape Town, PE, East London, suburbs of Jo’burg, Pilansburg.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:52 pm

I have family that live in SA, and they have stated that the police and army are just standing around and watching the carnage take place.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:59 pm

Lots of problems with the Rule of law in South Africa. Doesn't help when the leaders are corrupt enough to take advantage of the country before , during , and after their service.

Zuma is corrupt. and the rioting is going on with a purpose by the current government that is afraid to crack down. Hopefully the Government and police will get a handle on this situation soon.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:27 pm

I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.

People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:41 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.
People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.

It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:00 pm

ltbewr wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.
People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.

It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


That used to be true but it has become increasingly difficult for South Africans to emigrate in recent years. Australia may still be easiest but it’s a high bar for anyone from SA to get into the UK or US without high-order job skills.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:02 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The slide to becoming Zimbabwe accelerates…. Beautiful country, been there several times, Cape Town, PE, East London, suburbs of Jo’burg, Pilansburg.


ZA has something Zimbabwe didn’t - resources and infrastructure to pawn off to the PRC. ZA’s only hope to remain viable is becoming a vassal state of theirs.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:06 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why would anyone support Zuma? His corruption was impressive.


Zuma is still immensely popular in KZN, especially among the poor. He did nothing for them and stole millions for himself and billions for the Gupta family, who are now living comfortably in the UAE. His low-info supporters don’t care about any of that.
 
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par13del
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:26 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
I have family that live in SA, and they have stated that the police and army are just standing around and watching the carnage take place.

We se them using shotguns, would you suggest they deploy the military and use regular rifles and machines guns?
If we do not want mass shootings perhaps a full scale lockdown style 24 hour curfew for a day or two is the best way to restore order.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The slide to becoming Zimbabwe accelerates…. Beautiful country, been there several times, Cape Town, PE, East London, suburbs of Jo’burg, Pilansburg.


ZA has something Zimbabwe didn’t - resources and infrastructure to pawn off to the PRC. ZA’s only hope to remain viable is becoming a vassal state of theirs.


True and geographic position which still important. But, China isn’t gonna tame or stop the breakdown of the society. They’ll just ignore it as they walk off with the resources.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:08 am

zkojq wrote:
Why would anyone support Zuma? His corruption was impressive.


Why would anyone support the ANC, they are corrupt and incompetent, they’ve destroyed most of South Africans govt, cronyism and corruption are rife. sA is great case study in what not to do, take a functioning govt hand it over to incompetent uneducated people and this is the result.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:14 am

Kiwirob wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why would anyone support Zuma? His corruption was impressive.


Why would anyone support the ANC, they are corrupt and incompetent, they’ve destroyed most of South Africans govt, cronyism and corruption are rife. sA is great case study in what not to do, take a functioning govt hand it over to incompetent uneducated people and this is the result.


Again, they retain support because they have done nothing in 25 years to boost education in poor areas and townships and those same people are the low-info voters they thrive on. It's perfect for the ANC. Educated black South Africans can't stand them and support DA. The current makeup of the DA is much closer to the 'rainbow coalition' Mandela often touted would arrive in the future.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:15 am

ltbewr wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.
People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.

It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


The problem IMO was the handover to black majority rule was far to quick, there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt. they booted out the white public servants as quickly as they could and replaced them with friends and family, most of whom had no qualifications for the positions they were given. The transition should have taken a couple of decades not a couple of years.

This is not the rainbow nation Mandela wanted to create.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:16 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.
People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.

It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


The problem IMO was the handover to black majority rule was far to quick, there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt. they booted out the white public servants as quickly as they could and replaced them with friends and family, most of whom had no qualifications for the positions they were given. The transition should have taken a couple of decades not a couple of years.

This is not the rainbow nation Mandela wanted to create.


This. Overnight paradigm shift is a recipe for disaster and SA's case will be taught for decades.
 
LHAM
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:29 am

Absolutely horrific situation.

BBC is reporting that looting and unrest leaves 72 dead!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57818215
 
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Aesma
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:15 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I have heard really knowledgeable people say SA is totally doomed now, and the decline became irreversible years ago. I heard exactly the same thing, early on, when Hugo Chavez rose to power from my Venezuelan medical resident roommate. It happens when populations fall below the minimum education and behavior requirements to run a civilized country.
People said Trump is the same thing as Zuma. That may be true in some ways, but the US has a more robust set of institutions and rule of law. Once that is lost, bye bye civilization, hello "sh-thole country." And Venezuela and SA are both reputedly abs beautiful countries with beautiful nice people. But hey... doesn't really matter if shitheads are running it.

It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


The problem IMO was the handover to black majority rule was far to quick, there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt. they booted out the white public servants as quickly as they could and replaced them with friends and family, most of whom had no qualifications for the positions they were given. The transition should have taken a couple of decades not a couple of years.

This is not the rainbow nation Mandela wanted to create.


Then the racist whites in power should have started the transition 20 years earlier...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:40 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


The problem IMO was the handover to black majority rule was far to quick, there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt. they booted out the white public servants as quickly as they could and replaced them with friends and family, most of whom had no qualifications for the positions they were given. The transition should have taken a couple of decades not a couple of years.

This is not the rainbow nation Mandela wanted to create.


Then the racist whites in power should have started the transition 20 years earlier...


They couldn't - they had to finish screwing over the middle class whites. The apartheid regime was a giant wealth engine for a few select conglomerates and connected families.

If you look at old films from the 1960s on Youtube of holidaygoers in Cape Town and elsewhere, they are all rich people. There are no average joes enjoying the spoils - they were pacified with a decent suburban life.
 
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par13del
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:

They couldn't - they had to finish screwing over the middle class whites. The apartheid regime was a giant wealth engine for a few select conglomerates and connected families.

If you look at old films from the 1960s on Youtube of holidaygoers in Cape Town and elsewhere, they are all rich people. There are no average joes enjoying the spoils - they were pacified with a decent suburban life.

History also shows that the regime started caving when the economy started going south because international traders were put under pressure to stop doing business with SA,
at the end of the day, just as with slavery it was all about money.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:42 am

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

They couldn't - they had to finish screwing over the middle class whites. The apartheid regime was a giant wealth engine for a few select conglomerates and connected families.

If you look at old films from the 1960s on Youtube of holidaygoers in Cape Town and elsewhere, they are all rich people. There are no average joes enjoying the spoils - they were pacified with a decent suburban life.

History also shows that the regime started caving when the economy started going south because international traders were put under pressure to stop doing business with SA,
at the end of the day, just as with slavery it was all about money.


I understand you mean Apartheid must have been all about money. But I think you give Apartheid too much credit. Money is very important to keep people well and achieve humanitarian goals. And the ANC is utterly failing to do that. It is humiliating for the people who said The previous government had it all wrong.

Previous SA government had one thing wrong - they discriminated based on skin color. That’s wrong. They had a lot of other things working quite well, which should have been conserved and protected. Again I compare it to Venezuela. Throwing out capitalism (and the existence of a rich private sector) is disastrous, because what you have left are unskilled people who are going to proceed to starve to death.
 
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par13del
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:41 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I understand you mean Apartheid must have been all about money. But I think you give Apartheid too much credit. Money is very important to keep people well and achieve humanitarian goals. And the ANC is utterly failing to do that. It is humiliating for the people who said The previous government had it all wrong.

Previous SA government had one thing wrong - they discriminated based on skin color. That’s wrong. They had a lot of other things working quite well, which should have been conserved and protected. Again I compare it to Venezuela. Throwing out capitalism (and the existence of a rich private sector) is disastrous, because what you have left are unskilled people who are going to proceed to starve to death.

A host of countries in South and Central America have / had the same issue, where I think we differ is you seem to think that in the development of nations, the rich private sector exist in a vaccum and the unskilled / uneducated masses choose / chose to maintain their status quo.
If one keeps your citizens uneducated, it is much easier to rule them, the flip side is that once you institute your abuse in a system, eventually, a liberator comes along and the country will go to hell as the pent up frustrations of years of abuse of the majority is released, the abusers can simply run away with their wealth until things calm down.
The masses supported the communist / socialist regimes who they saw as liberators, what we missed is that regardless of the political system, money corrupts, especially when you were denied a seat at the table. When you look at Venezuela today, do you really believe that the majority of the population wanted their saviours to run the country into the ground? If you look at the reforms promised, they never delivered, only token measures, education levels are still very low, subsistence farming that would have financially empowered a large section of the unskilled labour force was denied by the land barons, and on and on it goes. Disregard the Robin Hood preachers, when you look at the concentration of wealth in Venezuela you see the makings of the problems that have to be addressed, folks need a chance to contribute at their level versus being used as fodder.
 
bennett123
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:04 pm

Surely the lack of competent, educated black people is the legacy of Apartheid. Keeping the majority population uneducated was hardly accidental.

Also looking at the experience of Venezuela quoted by parl13del, people supporting a liberator is largely an indictment of the previous regime.
 
GDB
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:02 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Surely the lack of competent, educated black people is the legacy of Apartheid. Keeping the majority population uneducated was hardly accidental.

Also looking at the experience of Venezuela quoted by parl13del, people supporting a liberator is largely an indictment of the previous regime.


Exactly! And the ANC members who largely formed the first legitimate government of SA had themselves either been locked up, Mandela was not the only one or for terms of many years, or in exile abroad.
The real rot set in maybe with the failure to offer an alternative, there is the Democratic Alliance but for many years it was easy for the 2nd generation of ANC leaders to paint them as a 'white party' intent on bringing the old days back, via the back door.
This is not the case now however the effect lack of a credible opposition party to the ANC has bred a severe case of 'onepartystateitis'.

This is not confined to SA, the most corrupt governments who are at least on paper democratic all suffer rampart corruption, look at many in Central America, there's a reason all those those nations are fleeing to the US in such numbers.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
It is very sad how South Africa has declined post-Apartheid. The inability to deal with Covid-19 was the last destructive blow. One has to believe there will be very few if any White/European persons left in the country along with many Black persons in the next few years, seeking safety in Europe, UK, NZ, Australia, USA and elsewhere.


The problem IMO was the handover to black majority rule was far to quick, there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt. they booted out the white public servants as quickly as they could and replaced them with friends and family, most of whom had no qualifications for the positions they were given. The transition should have taken a couple of decades not a couple of years.

This is not the rainbow nation Mandela wanted to create.


Then the racist whites in power should have started the transition 20 years earlier...


Really? I doubt it would have changed the situation, SA would have collapsed 20 years earlier.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:32 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Surely the lack of competent, educated black people is the legacy of Apartheid. Keeping the majority population uneducated was hardly accidental.

Also looking at the experience of Venezuela quoted by parl13del, people supporting a liberator is largely an indictment of the previous regime.


Which is why the transition should have been a lot slower than it was, it happened too quickly.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:13 pm

Can they look to their neighbours for a way of doing it right”. Which ones? There is an African League of Nations.
 
bennett123
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Surely the lack of competent, educated black people is the legacy of Apartheid. Keeping the majority population uneducated was hardly accidental.

Also looking at the experience of Venezuela quoted by parl13del, people supporting a liberator is largely an indictment of the previous regime.


Which is why the transition should have been a lot slower than it was, it happened too quickly.


The problem is that the transition was forced, and that without that pressure there would have been no transition.
 
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keesje
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:37 pm

When the polarized followers of a corrupt, populist president go on the streets to protect their hero, representative, believing the leader it's all fraud, we know what happens.
 
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par13del
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:19 pm

Why would the followers in country believe anything the benevolent foreigners have to say about the leadership as if they really care about the plight of the people? How hard is it to tell the locals that the troubles in country are due to foreigners who do not want to see the locals succeed but rather they be returned to their rightful place in the boondocks. Education is the key to nation building, governments are too big today to keep corrupt individuals out.
Chicken...egg...situation.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:28 pm

par13del wrote:
Why would the followers in country believe anything the benevolent foreigners have to say about the leadership as if they really care about the plight of the people? How hard is it to tell the locals that the troubles in country are due to foreigners who do not want to see the locals succeed but rather they be returned to their rightful place in the boondocks. Education is the key to nation building, governments are too big today to keep corrupt individuals out.
Chicken...egg...situation.


Oh yes, there has been plenty of that in recent years. Many ANC supporters gladly spout propaganda that the criminal element are not locals, and pin everything on poor migrants from other African nations.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:21 am

bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Surely the lack of competent, educated black people is the legacy of Apartheid. Keeping the majority population uneducated was hardly accidental.

Also looking at the experience of Venezuela quoted by parl13del, people supporting a liberator is largely an indictment of the previous regime.


Which is why the transition should have been a lot slower than it was, it happened too quickly.


The problem is that the transition was forced, and that without that pressure there would have been no transition.


Then they have to accept the country they have today.
 
bennett123
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Which is why the transition should have been a lot slower than it was, it happened too quickly.


The problem is that the transition was forced, and that without that pressure there would have been no transition.


Then they have to accept the country they have today.


You say there should have been a slower transition. The problem is that this option did not exist.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:07 am

bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
bennett123 wrote:

The problem is that the transition was forced, and that without that pressure there would have been no transition.


Then they have to accept the country they have today.


You say there should have been a slower transition. The problem is that this option did not exist.


I guess that's because the ANC wanted to grab power immediately and didn't think of the consequences of that power grab. The country we see today is the consequence.
 
T54A
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:56 am

Apparently, this is from Clem Sunter (a scenario planner and strategist whose influential ideas in the 1980s played into apartheid South Africa opting for the High Road of political settlement, rather than the Low Road of confrontation and civil war):

“Dear friends,

Many of you outside of South Africa are wondering what is really going on. So here is a very simple outline. The thing is obviously far more complex and nuanced than can be set out in a brief note but this will give you some picture of what is really happening.

Following the 1994 democratic elections in South Africa, South Africa did really well economically until about 2008. That was also the year that Jacob Zuma was elected president of the ANC. At that point in time, some of us had a sense of disquiet already. But little did any of us understand then the extent of the corruption and weakening of government institutions that would follow. We have no clear idea of the extent of what was stolen during the Jacob Zuma years, other than that it is a stupendous sum of money which this country certainly cannot afford. Eventually however the internal tide within the ANC started to slowly turn against Jacob Zuma. On 18 December 2017 Cyril Ramaphosa was elected as the president of the ANC (and also subsequently became the president of South Africa). But it was a very narrow margin of victory.

The thing about Cyril Ramaphosa is that he is fundamentally a principled man. And certainly, determined to clean up the history of corruption we have seen since 2008. Various steps have been taken by him and the ANC under his guidance to give effect to this. One of the things that was done was to establish a commission chaired by Raymond Zondo, who is the Deputy Chief Justice of South Africa. The purpose of this commission was to investigate the corruption issues and to expose them to the light of day.

Jacob Zuma was required to appear in front of the commission. He effectively refused to do so. He was ordered by the Constitutional Court to do so. He defied the order of the Constitutional Court. The Constitutional Court in turn ordered his imprisonment for a period of 15 months for contempt of court. This, whatever you call it, is fundamentally the rule of law in action.

Initially there was resistance to imprisonment by Jacob Zuma and his supporters. A week ago, however Jacob Zuma submitted himself to imprisonment. And then all hell broke loose.

What you need to understand is that Jacob Zuma has his powerbase in KwaZulu Natal, where the riots have been at their worst. This is also, as the name will tell you, the home territory of the Zulu nation. And Jacob Zuma is a prominent figure in the Zulu nation. Within the Jacob Zuma camp, individuals set about instigating the so-called protests, riots and looting that you have seen in the media. To a significant extent they leveraged the problems of poverty and inequality in South Africa to achieve their ends. Very often in this country we have areas where many very poor people are resident adjacent to commercial complexes. This was an ideal combination to exploit. In addition to that there are the existing fissures along race lines that exist in our society which were also available to leverage. Audio files doing the rounds encouraged people to attack and destroy what are perceived to be white and white owned businesses. In the end though, many black businesspeople also suffered considerable losses.

The gameplan was to create a situation which would force the hand of the current government. Ideally, it would result in an overreaction by the security forces, with the result that many of the poor and vulnerable would be killed (which is what happened at Marikana a few years back). If that occurred, it would likely force the resignation or removal of Cyril Ramaphosa as president. Meaning the Jacob Zuma camp would have achieved their objective. This is one reason why the security forces have been so careful not to use excessive force in dealing with the riots and the looters.

While there is still a lot of instability in KwaZulu Natal and certain pockets in Gauteng, what is now starting to emerge quite clearly is that the gambit by the Jacob Zuma camp has failed. South African society of all walks has turned its face against this insurrection. In effect, an attempted coup has failed.

South Africans are a strange nation in many ways. They argue and fight amongst themselves but when pushed to the edge, they always pull together for the common good. This has happened again and again over the decades.

This has been perhaps a necessary test of our democracy and of the rule of law. Make no mistake but that South Africa has many very real challenges. But South Africa will pass through this and will put the locust years behind it.”
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:20 pm

I heard from friends living in surrounding countries that it's starting to impact deliveries of goods to supermarkets and stores. Since they rely so much of trucked goods from SA.

Also seems to be a strong belief that this was all kicked off by an ex member of the special forces who is still loyal to Zuma. The looters of course have no interest in the cause here, just like in any other country this has happened in. They just want free stuff to try and sell and make some money.
 
seat64k
Posts: 612
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Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:58 am

Kiwirob wrote:
there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt.


This is not the problem - there were plenty, and there were even more available by the time Zuma was president. The problem is the post-liberation ANC is a patronage network first. Cabinet positions went to those who had been promised positions. In every level of government, from the top down to small municipalities, "struggle credentials" and getting any meaningful position without it was (and probably still is) rare. Corruption isn't an abberation, or even a feature. It's a fundamental requirement.

The ANC is also stupendously arrogant and self absorbed. The selected Jacob Zuma in the full knowledge that he was tained. They got rid of the special investigative unit to make his 900+ corruption charges go away. They knew he was dishonest. They knew he he was uneducated. They knew he could barely read. They knew he was a tool who could easily be manupilated - that's probably why they picked him. And once they had him in the top spot, they watched the utterly predictable destruction and plundering for nine years before they finally folder under the pressure to get rid of him. NINE YEARS! They have no shame.

I agree with Clem Sunter that Ramaphosa is principaled. As far as I can tell, he appears not to be corrupt. But he's a weak leader. And he's taking actions that make him deeply unpopular in the ANC. It would surprise me if he doesn't make it for another term.

And let's not forget, while the ANC is fighting over the spoils they've been steadily losing voters over the last three or so elections. Mostly to the nationalise-everything-EFF with their little Idi-Amin-wannabe leader. Things can get a whole lot worse.
 
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Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 15689
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Chaos In South Africa Following Zuma's Incarceration

Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:05 am

seat64k wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
there simply weren’t enough educated competent black people to take over the govt.


This is not the problem - there were plenty, and there were even more available by the time Zuma was president. The problem is the post-liberation ANC is a patronage network first. Cabinet positions went to those who had been promised positions. In every level of government, from the top down to small municipalities, "struggle credentials" and getting any meaningful position without it was (and probably still is) rare. Corruption isn't an abberation, or even a feature. It's a fundamental requirement.

The ANC is also stupendously arrogant and self absorbed. The selected Jacob Zuma in the full knowledge that he was tained. They got rid of the special investigative unit to make his 900+ corruption charges go away. They knew he was dishonest. They knew he he was uneducated. They knew he could barely read. They knew he was a tool who could easily be manupilated - that's probably why they picked him. And once they had him in the top spot, they watched the utterly predictable destruction and plundering for nine years before they finally folder under the pressure to get rid of him. NINE YEARS! They have no shame.

I agree with Clem Sunter that Ramaphosa is principaled. As far as I can tell, he appears not to be corrupt. But he's a weak leader. And he's taking actions that make him deeply unpopular in the ANC. It would surprise me if he doesn't make it for another term.

And let's not forget, while the ANC is fighting over the spoils they've been steadily losing voters over the last three or so elections. Mostly to the nationalise-everything-EFF with their little Idi-Amin-wannabe leader. Things can get a whole lot worse.


100% spot-on take. This is precisely what the state of affairs is.

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