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ArchGuy1
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Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:04 am

Wildfires are currently raging across the Western United States and about 80 fires have been reported across the large region. States affected by those fires include California, Oregon, and Idaho and the largest fire in the United States is currently in Oregon. Very significant event where climate change has played a huge role.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios. ... 53cd5.html
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:07 am

With the western wildfire season, it is now a matter of how big and how long, not if or when.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:37 am

Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:59 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:30 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


1960s development policies that favored single family subdivision development instead of apartments. Look at an aerial of greater SD, LA, SF, and you have your answer.
 
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seb146
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:11 am

We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:15 am

seb146 wrote:
We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.


You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.
 
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seb146
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:38 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.


You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.


No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:10 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.


Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30

https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:21 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.


Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30

https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247


Yeah I "believe" that Earth temp is increasing due to CO2, but a lot of other things are changing too. For example, weather radar today is far more advanced than it was pre-1980. This can help explain "highest wind speeds ever detected" or "largest storm ever detected."

Also, the news media is employing thousands of people to talk about this. And the news media is instant and global. We already see this affecting people's perception of everything from hurricanes to police brutality.

If there is a daily article about a terrible hurricane beamed in from global-enabled news gathering, people tend to think it happens more often than it did 100, or 700, or 7000 years ago. Which is not necessarily the case whatsoever. Without more information.

So you first need to harmonize data. Since that is hard, articles rarely go into that, and rarely justify the feeling that climate change causes this flood or that forest fire.
 
luckyone
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.

This coupled with media response is likely the biggest factor going forward. Dry climates aren't meant for large scale habitation. Right now some of the states seeing absurd amounts of growth into water scarce areas from people who grew up in wet climates and have no clue about fire country. It's a recipe for disaster. Where I grew up, we would regularly set fire to our yards and parcels of land to clear the thatch -- the thought just never crossed your mind that it would get beyond the management of a garden hose.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.


You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.


No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.


I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.
 
luckyone
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.


No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.


I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.

C141 may have been the aircraft.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:02 pm

These massive wildfires also cause secondary damage from the loss of vegetation when rains finally arrive causing mudslides and flooding.
There seems to be no way to deal with them except to remove humans and structures from them permanently.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:20 pm

luckyone wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.


I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.

C141 may have been the aircraft.


Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.
 
luckyone
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:38 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
luckyone wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.

C141 may have been the aircraft.


Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.

Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?
 
bennett123
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:41 pm

Some people seem to be desperately looking for some explanation apart from climate change.
 
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seb146
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 pm

luckyone wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
luckyone wrote:
C141 may have been the aircraft.


Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.

Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?


That kind but not a C17. This was 1986. It was a long time ago. I just remember large military aircraft flew in fire trucks and equipment. PDT can take up to 757s. I have pictures of 727, MD-80, and 737 from that summer.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:40 pm

C-5 unlikely in PDT, too short at 6301’, but probably Herks or a-141. In ‘86, it wasn’t a C-17 or any Russian equipment.
 
Newark727
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.


Curious what sort of equipment it was?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Pumpers, brush fire trucks from the east. One of the big fire seasons in the ‘90s. We brought electrical repair trucks to various Caribbean islands after hurricanes, too.
 
N965UW
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:19 pm

Upper level winds have carried the smoke across the country. Very hazy in NY today. Interesting to see KJFK METAR reading "FU BKN300" right now.
 
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ER757
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.

Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?


That kind but not a C17. This was 1986. It was a long time ago. I just remember large military aircraft flew in fire trucks and equipment. PDT can take up to 757s. I have pictures of 727, MD-80, and 737 from that summer.

I'm thinking it had to be a C-141, Seb, your memory might be a little hazy after so many years.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.


So if it wasn't
C-5
C-141
C-17
C-130
L-188
Soviet
Kawasaki C-1 (I assume these wasn't used outside Japan)

what other (jet) aircrafts are there that can bring a firetruck into PTD?
 
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seb146
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:42 pm

ER757 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?


That kind but not a C17. This was 1986. It was a long time ago. I just remember large military aircraft flew in fire trucks and equipment. PDT can take up to 757s. I have pictures of 727, MD-80, and 737 from that summer.

I'm thinking it had to be a C-141, Seb, your memory might be a little hazy after so many years.


And being in the heat and sun all that time that summer...
 
afcjets
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:28 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.


Except science and the evidence say otherwise:

"California’s current drought is being billed as the driest period in the state’s recorded rainfall history. But scientists who study the West’s long-term climate patterns say the state has been parched for much longer stretches before that 163-year historical period began.

And they worry that the “megadroughts” typical of California’s earlier history could come again.

Through studies of tree rings, sediment and other natural evidence, researchers have documented multiple droughts in California that lasted 10 or 20 years in a row during the past 1,000 years — compared to the mere three-year duration of the current dry spell. The two most severe megadroughts make the Dust Bowl of the 1930s look tame: a 240-year-long drought that started in 850 and, 50 years after the conclusion of that one, another that stretched at least 180 years.

“We continue to run California as if the longest drought we are ever going to encounter is about seven years,” said Scott Stine, a professor of geography and environmental studies at Cal State East Bay. “We’re living in a dream world.”"

https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01/25/ ... tists-say/
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:49 pm

To be fair, it has to be some of both. The atmosphere is warmer than normal. That has to have some effect. But the news media, of course, overplays this probabilistic idea by saying “climate change definitely caused this fire,” which is just false. There is maybe 5% certainty on that. They are their own worst enemy.

A more likely statement is, “of the 900 forest fires in the western US in recent years, about 50 were caused by anthropogenic climate change.” Less sexy. That’s why science is so boring. Passion is typically the opposite of science. So they jazz it up a little for the news.
 
Okie
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:43 pm

Four years since the Orrville Dam disaster (2017) from excess precipitation and all the sudden excess precip is somehow considered normal and then drought in a desert is not considered a problem.

Only two Desalination Plants built in California since the previous drought and 10 put on hold by the Governor for financial reasons.

Now planning on using excess Covid funds for political purposes instead of building desalination plants or Forrest management or strengthening the power transmission system seems a little over the top in my thought processes.

Okie
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:54 pm

Okie wrote:
Four years since the Orrville Dam disaster (2017) from excess precipitation and all the sudden excess precip is somehow considered normal and then drought in a desert is not considered a problem.

Only two Desalination Plants built in California since the previous drought and 10 put on hold by the Governor for financial reasons.

Now planning on using excess Covid funds for political purposes instead of building desalination plants or Forrest management or strengthening the power transmission system seems a little over the top in my thought processes.

Okie


Much of this information is false - where did you hear such things from?

Cal Fire’s (our ‘forest management’ service) budget is around $2 billion, and the current governor has increased its funding every year. $700 million since 2019 and they are proposing another $1 billion increase.

https://amp.sacbee.com/news/california/ ... 25084.html

58% of the forest in California is under federal, not state management by the way.

Desal is pretty difficult to do successfully in CA. The environmental mitigation is challenging and expensive (you have to draw the water from the seafloor to avoid ecosystem damage), make the piping seismically safe, and get rid of the salt. All of that has to clear the California Coastal Commission, and they are very strict. The coast is one of the state’s most precious resources, with numerous state and federal marine sanctuaries. Would you prefer they just run roughshod over it on desal’s account?
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:06 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.


These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.


Climate change is definitely part of it, but it also doesn't help preventing natural forest fires that are supposed to happen. As the kindling builds up it's a ticking time bomb. To put it another way, for those of us that burn our dried out Christmas trees in the spring or summer, think of it like that but multiply it by millions.
 
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seb146
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Okie wrote:
Four years since the Orrville Dam disaster (2017) from excess precipitation and all the sudden excess precip is somehow considered normal and then drought in a desert is not considered a problem.

Only two Desalination Plants built in California since the previous drought and 10 put on hold by the Governor for financial reasons.

Now planning on using excess Covid funds for political purposes instead of building desalination plants or Forrest management or strengthening the power transmission system seems a little over the top in my thought processes.

Okie


Much of this information is false - where did you hear such things from?

Cal Fire’s (our ‘forest management’ service) budget is around $2 billion, and the current governor has increased its funding every year. $700 million since 2019 and they are proposing another $1 billion increase.

https://amp.sacbee.com/news/california/ ... 25084.html

58% of the forest in California is under federal, not state management by the way.

Desal is pretty difficult to do successfully in CA. The environmental mitigation is challenging and expensive (you have to draw the water from the seafloor to avoid ecosystem damage), make the piping seismically safe, and get rid of the salt. All of that has to clear the California Coastal Commission, and they are very strict. The coast is one of the state’s most precious resources, with numerous state and federal marine sanctuaries. Would you prefer they just run roughshod over it on desal’s account?


Oroville can not be blamed on just one thing.

https://damfailures.org/case-study/orov ... rnia-2017/

Federal regulations, state regulations, the ground, the water, environment... It all contributed to Oroville.

Not that it has anything at all to do with fires in the West because of climate change. There have always been fires in the West. They have just gotten worse and worse over the years. Because of (say it with me) the climate changing. We have worse fires in El Nino years. That means less precipitation. We have La Nina years which means more precipitation but those happen less often. I have been noticing we have more El Nino years than La Nina years recently. I can't remember one jet I saw 35 years ago but I can remember how we used to have snow as early as September, as late as May, and no one cared but now, if we have snow at all in my hometown, it is an event and everyone freaks out.
 
dmg626
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:34 am

LCDFlight wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:

These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.


Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30

https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247


Yeah I "believe" that Earth temp is increasing due to CO2, but a lot of other things are changing too. For example, weather radar today is far more advanced than it was pre-1980. This can help explain "highest wind speeds ever detected" or "largest storm ever detected."

Also, the news media is employing thousands of people to talk about this. And the news media is instant and global. We already see this affecting people's perception of everything from hurricanes to police brutality.

If there is a daily article about a terrible hurricane beamed in from global-enabled news gathering, people tend to think it happens more often than it did 100, or 700, or 7000 years ago. Which is not necessarily the case whatsoever. Without more information.

So you first need to harmonize data. Since that is hard, articles rarely go into that, and rarely justify the feeling that climate change causes this flood or that forest fire.



It makes for better ooh ahh response when the weather channel reports that 100 million people are under a fill in the blank warning of the day
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:48 pm

af773atmsp wrote:

Climate change is definitely part of it, but it also doesn't help preventing natural forest fires that are supposed to happen. As the kindling builds up it's a ticking time bomb. To put it another way, for those of us that burn our dried out Christmas trees in the spring or summer, think of it like that but multiply it by millions.


I speak with some knowledge on how forest fires, wildfires or bushfires, as they are known in different parts of the world, are fought.

I’m from Australia, I can relate our experience on the issue, not saying it’s exactly the same in North America. We had the worst fire conditions on record in the summer of 2019/20. “Black Summer” as it was called. A lot of conservative commentators tried to downplay the role of climate change (which 2 inquiries into the fires found was the major cause) by playing up the role of improper “fuel load management”, like the kindling you refer to.

Several problems with this theory.

1. Measurements of fuel loads in woodlands have shown the amount of undergrowth, the kindling, hasn’t changed in decades. But what has changed is the dryness of that kindling as measured through moisture levels.

2. False stories were circulated about environmentalists banning firefighters from undertaking controlled burning to reduce this undergrowth. Firefighters themselves spoke out and confirmed this was an utter lie. At no point have they been prevented by environmentalists from undertaking controlled burns, but hotter and dryer weather conditions had made these preventative burning operations harder to undertake.

3. All the preventative burning, and the clearing of fire breaks failed to stop out of control wild fires in a lot of instances. By some accounts these containment measures which had worked for decades suddenly became useless in 19/20.

4. To clear out all the kindling or undergrowth to standards that would be effective is impossible. By some estimates they would need tens of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of workers to clear out the undergrowth in just one Australian state.

5. A group of 30 recently retired fire chiefs spoke out and said climate issues were the major cause of the fires. Currently fire chiefs basically backed up their claims.

6. Natural fires have always happened in forests, but there’s several issues that complicate this now. One, like it or not human beings live in great numbers near forests. They can’t all be displaced. Two, hotter dryer climates are making those fires more powerful and more fast moving.

So whilst management of the levels of fuel, the undergrowth and kindling play a role, the firefighters on the frontline know that a hotter, dryer climate and dryer forests are the main factor in making forest fires more dangerous in recent times.
 
Drafran
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:59 pm

Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!
 
afcjets
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:30 am

Drafran wrote:
Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!


The environmentalists in California won't let you.

"Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests

Millions of acres of California forest have been blackened by wildfires this summer, leading to the usual angry denunciations from the usual quarters about climate change. But in 1999, the Associated Press reported that forestry experts had long agreed that “clearing undergrowth would save trees,” and that “years of aggressive firefighting have allowed brush to flourish that would have been cleared away by wildfires.” But very little was done. And now fires of unprecedented size are raging across the Western United States.

“Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill,” reads the provocative headline on a 2002 story in California’s Napa Valley Register. Feinstein had brokered a congressional consensus on legislation to thin “overstocked” forests close to homes and communities, but could not overcome the environmental lobby’s disagreement over expediting the permit process to thin forests everywhere else.

Year after year, environmentalists litigated and lobbied to stop efforts to clear the forests through timber harvesting, underbrush removal, and controlled burns. ... Fire suppression along with too many environmentalist-inspired bureaucratic barriers to controlled burns and undergrowth removal turned the hillsides and canyons of Southern California into tinderboxes.

In 2009, after huge blazes wiped out homes and forced thousands to evacuate, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich observed: “The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today.”...

Instead, California’s environmentalists only redouble their nonsense arguments. Expect these fires to justify even more “climate change” legislation that does nothing to clear the forests of overgrown tinder, and everything to clear the forests, and the chaparral, of people and towns."


https://californiapolicycenter.org/envi ... s-forests/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:41 am

afcjets wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!


The environmentalists in California won't let you.

"Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests

Millions of acres of California forest have been blackened by wildfires this summer, leading to the usual angry denunciations from the usual quarters about climate change. But in 1999, the Associated Press reported that forestry experts had long agreed that “clearing undergrowth would save trees,” and that “years of aggressive firefighting have allowed brush to flourish that would have been cleared away by wildfires.” But very little was done. And now fires of unprecedented size are raging across the Western United States.

“Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill,” reads the provocative headline on a 2002 story in California’s Napa Valley Register. Feinstein had brokered a congressional consensus on legislation to thin “overstocked” forests close to homes and communities, but could not overcome the environmental lobby’s disagreement over expediting the permit process to thin forests everywhere else.

Year after year, environmentalists litigated and lobbied to stop efforts to clear the forests through timber harvesting, underbrush removal, and controlled burns. ... Fire suppression along with too many environmentalist-inspired bureaucratic barriers to controlled burns and undergrowth removal turned the hillsides and canyons of Southern California into tinderboxes.

In 2009, after huge blazes wiped out homes and forced thousands to evacuate, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich observed: “The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today.”...

Instead, California’s environmentalists only redouble their nonsense arguments. Expect these fires to justify even more “climate change” legislation that does nothing to clear the forests of overgrown tinder, and everything to clear the forests, and the chaparral, of people and towns."


https://californiapolicycenter.org/envi ... s-forests/


Pretty easy to single out one party when searching for confirmation of one view. However if you look at a map of the forest lands in SoCal near populated areas, you might be surprised to find most are federally managed.

https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca

Sometimes it helps to ask people from a place if you want to know more about it.
 
afcjets
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty easy to single out one party when searching for confirmation of one view. However if you look at a map of the forest lands in SoCal near populated areas, you might be surprised to find most are federally managed.

https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca

Sometimes it helps to ask people from a place if you want to know more about it.


I didn't paste the entire article and I was not singling out Republicans. The Republicans are on Diane Feinstein's side on this issue and environmentalists tend not to be Republican anyways.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:07 pm

The historic town of Greenville, California has been destroyed by a wildfire and 75 percent of the town has been destroyed. This includes a number of historic buildings in the historic downtown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sacbee ... 78813.html
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:35 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
The historic town of Greenville, California has been destroyed by a wildfire and 75 percent of the town has been destroyed. This includes a number of historic buildings in the historic downtown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sacbee ... 78813.html


The high end of Plumas county is pretty remote. Californians who visit that region usually don’t go further than Chico.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:00 am

Clearly, people in California are incapable of learning anything: let's have the vicious cycle of wildfires and destroyed homes over and over again.
And let's cry about "Climate Change" all the time, because that's convenient to deflect blame and allows for zero preparation and prevention.
It's so much easier for a governor to rant about "Climate Change" than to ban the construction of homes in fire prone areas, or spend money on improving forest management and trimming dead trees, or increase utility rates so power lines can be kept free of fire-prone debris, or spend money on fire prevention measures and the construction of large water aquifers, etc. etc. etc.
Better to get reelected and let homes burn to the ground than get booted because we take unpopular measures.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:33 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Clearly, people in California are incapable of learning anything: let's have the vicious cycle of wildfires and destroyed homes over and over again.
And let's cry about "Climate Change" all the time, because that's convenient to deflect blame and allows for zero preparation and prevention.
It's so much easier for a governor to rant about "Climate Change" than to ban the construction of homes in fire prone areas, or spend money on improving forest management and trimming dead trees, or increase utility rates so power lines can be kept free of fire-prone debris, or spend money on fire prevention measures and the construction of large water aquifers, etc. etc. etc.
Better to get reelected and let homes burn to the ground than get booted because we take unpopular measures.


Some of this is just not accurate. Please see reply #29 regarding forest management and state budgets. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1462911&p=22904709#p22883255

As for utility rates, California utilities are currently planning a multibillion dollar effort to bury all utility lines to reduce fire risk.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pge-bu ... 021-07-21/

Banning construction of homes in fire prone areas is not something that can realistically be done at the legislative level. California counties are empowered to set their own regional planning standards, and municipalities within them are empowered to set their own zoning and land use policies.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:49 am

Persuading people not to build in forest fire prone areas is not politically possible. About all that could be done is for the state and county to declare that fire protection cannot and will not be provided. And fat chance of that happening.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:25 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Clearly, people in California are incapable of learning anything: let's have the vicious cycle of wildfires and destroyed homes over and over again.
And let's cry about "Climate Change" all the time, because that's convenient to deflect blame and allows for zero preparation and prevention.
It's so much easier for a governor to rant about "Climate Change" than to ....... spend money on improving forest management and trimming dead trees,


As has been said before it’s not the amount of “dead trees” lying on the ground that are the problem, it’s the dryness of the living forest and it’s tendency to burn hotter and faster due to long term decreases in rainfall and moisture, and hotter and longer fire seasons decreasing the safe window to perform controlled fuel reduction burns.

Both of which are a consequence of, you guessed it, climate change.

We had the same thing in Australia, Conservatives complaining there was too much talk about “climate change” and not enough about “forest management”. When in fact veteran firefighters are saying that climate change is the issue.

Turns out a lot of people saying “forest management” were just shilling for logging or farming interests, who want to cut down forests for economic gain and not fire prevention.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:08 pm

You want proof that American politicians are not interested in spending $$$ lest they get booted out of office?
One example is New Orleans. Back in 2009, Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La. led a delegation to the Netherlands to study the Dutch integrated water management system and their flood control barriers. After the visit was almost completed and they were told the price tag for all the measures (to the tune of tens of billions of dollars), the delegation simply was shocked and decided to forget about these flood control measures as it was simply political imprudent to tell the American electorate the truth. Instead, they went home and kept going with bandage measures.

https://levees.org/2009/05/18/landrieu- ... rotection/

There clearly is an attitude difference between Americans and the Dutch. Had the Dutch have the same attitude as Americans, their politicians would whine about "Climate Change" constantly, half of the country would be underwater half of the time, and nothing would have been done to prevent that.
But the Dutch are not like the whiney Americans. They do know that climate change is real, but also know that it is something that takes time to fix. So, in the mean time it is better to spend $$$ on flood control measures and be prepared for the next high water level event than to whine and do nothing.
Americans are the opposite. They love to whine, do nothing, and play the "Climate Change" card over and over again.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:19 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Some people seem to be desperately looking for some explanation apart from climate change.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: It gets harder every year. Even Frank Luntz, who literally rebranded global warming as climate change so it'd be easier to rook conservatives into supporting the petroleum swamp, has admitted climate change is real.

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!


The environmentalists in California won't let you.

"Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests

Millions of acres of California forest have been blackened by wildfires this summer, leading to the usual angry denunciations from the usual quarters about climate change. But in 1999, the Associated Press reported that forestry experts had long agreed that “clearing undergrowth would save trees,” and that “years of aggressive firefighting have allowed brush to flourish that would have been cleared away by wildfires.” But very little was done. And now fires of unprecedented size are raging across the Western United States.

“Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill,” reads the provocative headline on a 2002 story in California’s Napa Valley Register. Feinstein had brokered a congressional consensus on legislation to thin “overstocked” forests close to homes and communities, but could not overcome the environmental lobby’s disagreement over expediting the permit process to thin forests everywhere else.

Year after year, environmentalists litigated and lobbied to stop efforts to clear the forests through timber harvesting, underbrush removal, and controlled burns. ... Fire suppression along with too many environmentalist-inspired bureaucratic barriers to controlled burns and undergrowth removal turned the hillsides and canyons of Southern California into tinderboxes.

In 2009, after huge blazes wiped out homes and forced thousands to evacuate, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich observed: “The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today.”...

Instead, California’s environmentalists only redouble their nonsense arguments. Expect these fires to justify even more “climate change” legislation that does nothing to clear the forests of overgrown tinder, and everything to clear the forests, and the chaparral, of people and towns."


https://californiapolicycenter.org/envi ... s-forests/


Pretty easy to single out one party when searching for confirmation of one view. However if you look at a map of the forest lands in SoCal near populated areas, you might be surprised to find most are federally managed.

https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca

Sometimes it helps to ask people from a place if you want to know more about it.

Dumb question, but is there like a 'herd immunity' for forest fires? As in with all the major fires we've seen recently, don't they in turn reduce the chance of and the fuel for the next fire?

dmg626 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30

https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247


Yeah I "believe" that Earth temp is increasing due to CO2, but a lot of other things are changing too. For example, weather radar today is far more advanced than it was pre-1980. This can help explain "highest wind speeds ever detected" or "largest storm ever detected."

Also, the news media is employing thousands of people to talk about this. And the news media is instant and global. We already see this affecting people's perception of everything from hurricanes to police brutality.

If there is a daily article about a terrible hurricane beamed in from global-enabled news gathering, people tend to think it happens more often than it did 100, or 700, or 7000 years ago. Which is not necessarily the case whatsoever. Without more information.

So you first need to harmonize data. Since that is hard, articles rarely go into that, and rarely justify the feeling that climate change causes this flood or that forest fire.



It makes for better ooh ahh response when the weather channel reports that 100 million people are under a fill in the blank warning of the day

...and then what? :confused:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:36 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Dumb question, but is there like a 'herd immunity' for forest fires? As in with all the major fires we've seen recently, don't they in turn reduce the chance of and the fuel for the next fire?


Not a dumb question - it depends on where. A good friend of mine is an ecology professor and my understanding from him is: an alpine or temperature forest that experienced a major fire will have consumed a lot of potential fuel and there would be considerable regeneration time. This applies to chaparral in SoCal too.

Interface zones like low woodlands regenerate faster and may have fresh fuel after a cycle of winter rain and spring growth of plants that’ll dry out later.

Grasslands will also regenerate faster and could be susceptible to fire as dry grasses grow yearly.

Also fire type matters too - in forests some sweep only through the lower layers while other fires come down the mountain and burn the forest crown.
 
afcjets
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:52 pm

Delete
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:43 pm

Good news for the economy, between hurricane destruction on the east side and fires on the west side Home Depot and Lowe’s business will keep booming. Plus all the other stuff people have to buy again to restart.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 335
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:38 am

Salt Lake had some of the worst air quality in the world yesterday, and Denver and Colorado today from wildfires. Where will people live in the U.S? Floods and record rains in the East this year and fires in the West. Human caused climate change is real.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Wildfires in the Western United States

Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:05 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
Salt Lake had some of the worst air quality in the world yesterday, and Denver and Colorado today from wildfires. Where will people live in the U.S? Floods and record rains in the East this year and fires in the West. Human caused climate change is real.


Important question. As aridification increases and winters moderate, temperate zones will become much more populated than they are now.

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