Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
seb146 wrote:We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.
Aaron747 wrote:seb146 wrote:We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.
You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.
Pi7472000 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
bpatus297 wrote:Pi7472000 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30
https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247
seb146 wrote:more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.
seb146 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:seb146 wrote:We have had fires in the past. They were large. PDT (my childhood airport) held a record in the summer of 1986 for most landings and take-offs at some point for some category. It was insane. I spent hours there that summer. We had a few Lockheed military aircraft land there to deliver fire trucks. Not the Galaxy or Starlifter but the smaller ones. PDT was one of the training bases for the Doolittle Raiders, so they are equipped for some smaller military craft. But, that was a rare year. Now, it is common. This is our life now because of (dare I say it?) climate change. Less snow and rain in the winter and more demand for bigger houses farther from cities, people illegally camping, idiots shooting off fireworks in the driest days of the year. This is now.
You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.
No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:seb146 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:
You were probably referring to the C-130 or L-188.
No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.
I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.
luckyone wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:seb146 wrote:
No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.
I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.
C141 may have been the aircraft.
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:luckyone wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.
C141 may have been the aircraft.
Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.
luckyone wrote:Thunderboltdrgn wrote:luckyone wrote:C141 may have been the aircraft.
Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.
Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?
GalaxyFlyer wrote:I’ve delivered fire fighting equipment to Montana, KGFA, IIRC. In a C-5.
seb146 wrote:luckyone wrote:Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Seb says that it wasn't a C5 or C141, no other jet freighters from LM though.
Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?
That kind but not a C17. This was 1986. It was a long time ago. I just remember large military aircraft flew in fire trucks and equipment. PDT can take up to 757s. I have pictures of 727, MD-80, and 737 from that summer.
seb146 wrote:No, it was a jet. Like a baby Galaxy.
ER757 wrote:seb146 wrote:luckyone wrote:Indeed, missed that! Is it possible it was a C-17?
That kind but not a C17. This was 1986. It was a long time ago. I just remember large military aircraft flew in fire trucks and equipment. PDT can take up to 757s. I have pictures of 727, MD-80, and 737 from that summer.
I'm thinking it had to be a C-141, Seb, your memory might be a little hazy after so many years.
Pi7472000 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
Okie wrote:Four years since the Orrville Dam disaster (2017) from excess precipitation and all the sudden excess precip is somehow considered normal and then drought in a desert is not considered a problem.
Only two Desalination Plants built in California since the previous drought and 10 put on hold by the Governor for financial reasons.
Now planning on using excess Covid funds for political purposes instead of building desalination plants or Forrest management or strengthening the power transmission system seems a little over the top in my thought processes.
Okie
Pi7472000 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:Makes you wonder why people build in forests that are supposed to routinely burn.
These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
Aaron747 wrote:Okie wrote:Four years since the Orrville Dam disaster (2017) from excess precipitation and all the sudden excess precip is somehow considered normal and then drought in a desert is not considered a problem.
Only two Desalination Plants built in California since the previous drought and 10 put on hold by the Governor for financial reasons.
Now planning on using excess Covid funds for political purposes instead of building desalination plants or Forrest management or strengthening the power transmission system seems a little over the top in my thought processes.
Okie
Much of this information is false - where did you hear such things from?
Cal Fire’s (our ‘forest management’ service) budget is around $2 billion, and the current governor has increased its funding every year. $700 million since 2019 and they are proposing another $1 billion increase.
https://amp.sacbee.com/news/california/ ... 25084.html
58% of the forest in California is under federal, not state management by the way.
Desal is pretty difficult to do successfully in CA. The environmental mitigation is challenging and expensive (you have to draw the water from the seafloor to avoid ecosystem damage), make the piping seismically safe, and get rid of the salt. All of that has to clear the California Coastal Commission, and they are very strict. The coast is one of the state’s most precious resources, with numerous state and federal marine sanctuaries. Would you prefer they just run roughshod over it on desal’s account?
LCDFlight wrote:bpatus297 wrote:Pi7472000 wrote:
These fires are not “routine” fires the West has historically seen. These are evidence of human caused climate change. Will be very few places left to build that won’t be affected by human caused climate change.
Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30
https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247
Yeah I "believe" that Earth temp is increasing due to CO2, but a lot of other things are changing too. For example, weather radar today is far more advanced than it was pre-1980. This can help explain "highest wind speeds ever detected" or "largest storm ever detected."
Also, the news media is employing thousands of people to talk about this. And the news media is instant and global. We already see this affecting people's perception of everything from hurricanes to police brutality.
If there is a daily article about a terrible hurricane beamed in from global-enabled news gathering, people tend to think it happens more often than it did 100, or 700, or 7000 years ago. Which is not necessarily the case whatsoever. Without more information.
So you first need to harmonize data. Since that is hard, articles rarely go into that, and rarely justify the feeling that climate change causes this flood or that forest fire.
af773atmsp wrote:
Climate change is definitely part of it, but it also doesn't help preventing natural forest fires that are supposed to happen. As the kindling builds up it's a ticking time bomb. To put it another way, for those of us that burn our dried out Christmas trees in the spring or summer, think of it like that but multiply it by millions.
Drafran wrote:Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!
afcjets wrote:Drafran wrote:Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!
The environmentalists in California won't let you.
"Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests
Millions of acres of California forest have been blackened by wildfires this summer, leading to the usual angry denunciations from the usual quarters about climate change. But in 1999, the Associated Press reported that forestry experts had long agreed that “clearing undergrowth would save trees,” and that “years of aggressive firefighting have allowed brush to flourish that would have been cleared away by wildfires.” But very little was done. And now fires of unprecedented size are raging across the Western United States.
“Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill,” reads the provocative headline on a 2002 story in California’s Napa Valley Register. Feinstein had brokered a congressional consensus on legislation to thin “overstocked” forests close to homes and communities, but could not overcome the environmental lobby’s disagreement over expediting the permit process to thin forests everywhere else.
Year after year, environmentalists litigated and lobbied to stop efforts to clear the forests through timber harvesting, underbrush removal, and controlled burns. ... Fire suppression along with too many environmentalist-inspired bureaucratic barriers to controlled burns and undergrowth removal turned the hillsides and canyons of Southern California into tinderboxes.
In 2009, after huge blazes wiped out homes and forced thousands to evacuate, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich observed: “The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today.”...
Instead, California’s environmentalists only redouble their nonsense arguments. Expect these fires to justify even more “climate change” legislation that does nothing to clear the forests of overgrown tinder, and everything to clear the forests, and the chaparral, of people and towns."
https://californiapolicycenter.org/envi ... s-forests/
Aaron747 wrote:Pretty easy to single out one party when searching for confirmation of one view. However if you look at a map of the forest lands in SoCal near populated areas, you might be surprised to find most are federally managed.
https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca
Sometimes it helps to ask people from a place if you want to know more about it.
ArchGuy1 wrote:The historic town of Greenville, California has been destroyed by a wildfire and 75 percent of the town has been destroyed. This includes a number of historic buildings in the historic downtown.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sacbee ... 78813.html
Dieuwer wrote:Clearly, people in California are incapable of learning anything: let's have the vicious cycle of wildfires and destroyed homes over and over again.
And let's cry about "Climate Change" all the time, because that's convenient to deflect blame and allows for zero preparation and prevention.
It's so much easier for a governor to rant about "Climate Change" than to ban the construction of homes in fire prone areas, or spend money on improving forest management and trimming dead trees, or increase utility rates so power lines can be kept free of fire-prone debris, or spend money on fire prevention measures and the construction of large water aquifers, etc. etc. etc.
Better to get reelected and let homes burn to the ground than get booted because we take unpopular measures.
Dieuwer wrote:Clearly, people in California are incapable of learning anything: let's have the vicious cycle of wildfires and destroyed homes over and over again.
And let's cry about "Climate Change" all the time, because that's convenient to deflect blame and allows for zero preparation and prevention.
It's so much easier for a governor to rant about "Climate Change" than to ....... spend money on improving forest management and trimming dead trees,
bennett123 wrote:Some people seem to be desperately looking for some explanation apart from climate change.
Aaron747 wrote:afcjets wrote:Drafran wrote:Dammit! Whose turn was it to rake the forest?!?!?! Heads will roll!!!
The environmentalists in California won't let you.
"Environmentalists Destroyed California’s Forests
Millions of acres of California forest have been blackened by wildfires this summer, leading to the usual angry denunciations from the usual quarters about climate change. But in 1999, the Associated Press reported that forestry experts had long agreed that “clearing undergrowth would save trees,” and that “years of aggressive firefighting have allowed brush to flourish that would have been cleared away by wildfires.” But very little was done. And now fires of unprecedented size are raging across the Western United States.
“Sen. Feinstein blames Sierra Club for blocking wildfire bill,” reads the provocative headline on a 2002 story in California’s Napa Valley Register. Feinstein had brokered a congressional consensus on legislation to thin “overstocked” forests close to homes and communities, but could not overcome the environmental lobby’s disagreement over expediting the permit process to thin forests everywhere else.
Year after year, environmentalists litigated and lobbied to stop efforts to clear the forests through timber harvesting, underbrush removal, and controlled burns. ... Fire suppression along with too many environmentalist-inspired bureaucratic barriers to controlled burns and undergrowth removal turned the hillsides and canyons of Southern California into tinderboxes.
In 2009, after huge blazes wiped out homes and forced thousands to evacuate, Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich observed: “The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today.”...
Instead, California’s environmentalists only redouble their nonsense arguments. Expect these fires to justify even more “climate change” legislation that does nothing to clear the forests of overgrown tinder, and everything to clear the forests, and the chaparral, of people and towns."
https://californiapolicycenter.org/envi ... s-forests/
Pretty easy to single out one party when searching for confirmation of one view. However if you look at a map of the forest lands in SoCal near populated areas, you might be surprised to find most are federally managed.
https://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/state-level.php?ca
Sometimes it helps to ask people from a place if you want to know more about it.
dmg626 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:bpatus297 wrote:
Climate change may have a little slice of the pie, but the largest slice is forestry mismanagement.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevor ... 50fb705e30
https://theconversation.com/climate-cha ... res-146247
Yeah I "believe" that Earth temp is increasing due to CO2, but a lot of other things are changing too. For example, weather radar today is far more advanced than it was pre-1980. This can help explain "highest wind speeds ever detected" or "largest storm ever detected."
Also, the news media is employing thousands of people to talk about this. And the news media is instant and global. We already see this affecting people's perception of everything from hurricanes to police brutality.
If there is a daily article about a terrible hurricane beamed in from global-enabled news gathering, people tend to think it happens more often than it did 100, or 700, or 7000 years ago. Which is not necessarily the case whatsoever. Without more information.
So you first need to harmonize data. Since that is hard, articles rarely go into that, and rarely justify the feeling that climate change causes this flood or that forest fire.
It makes for better ooh ahh response when the weather channel reports that 100 million people are under a fill in the blank warning of the day
MaverickM11 wrote:Dumb question, but is there like a 'herd immunity' for forest fires? As in with all the major fires we've seen recently, don't they in turn reduce the chance of and the fuel for the next fire?
Pi7472000 wrote:Salt Lake had some of the worst air quality in the world yesterday, and Denver and Colorado today from wildfires. Where will people live in the U.S? Floods and record rains in the East this year and fires in the West. Human caused climate change is real.