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bpatus297
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
For some people this is going to be even worse than when they changed the taste of Coke.


For people in CLE the name makes sense and that’s all that matters. It’s an excellent move. Now if they can do something about that WS drought..:lol:


First I read about CBT and now this? White site am I on?

I find baseball as exciting as watching paint dry. I did watch when the Cubs and Boston and Toronto won their respective World Series. Those were historic moments. Other than that, meh. I understand how passionate people are about their sports. After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names, finally something is happening. I don't get it like I don't get Kraken for Seattle's new NHL team, but whatever. It makes not difference to my life at all.

Except the Kraken will be crushed by my Canucks. :)


Its not as clear cut as you make it out "After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names". Of course you can find information on groups that absolutely called for the change, but again, its not as black and white as you purport. I couldn't care less that the Washington Football Team of the Cleveland Guardians changed their names. Other than the Guardians sounding dumb to me, its just the name of a sports franchise that doesn't really effect anything. I just wanted to point out the other side of the story.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12648
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
OPS superseded batting average in importance awhile ago. I agree that it's not a good change for the game overall. Cody Bellinger of the Dodgers is hitting .160 and still playing every day Back in the day that would get you sent to AAA no matter how well you covered ground in CF.


His OPS is .556 (right in the middle of the pack), his WAR is -0.3 (near the bottom). And he's only played 43 games this season.

Anyway, what is defined as "good for the game"? I would think it's the obvious - winning (and, of course, if you're an owner, making money).

I wish the league wouldn't try and do this-or-that to make the game more like it used to be. After all, this is just another era of MLB, that will be succeeded eventually by some other era.

FGITD wrote:
I’ve been a big fan of MLB battling the pacing issues.


If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15730
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Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:42 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
OPS superseded batting average in importance awhile ago. I agree that it's not a good change for the game overall. Cody Bellinger of the Dodgers is hitting .160 and still playing every day Back in the day that would get you sent to AAA no matter how well you covered ground in CF.


His OPS is .556 (right in the middle of the pack), his WAR is -0.3 (near the bottom). And he's only played 43 games this season.

Anyway, what is defined as "good for the game"? I would think it's the obvious - winning (and, of course, if you're an owner, making money).

I wish the league wouldn't try and do this-or-that to make the game more like it used to be. After all, this is just another era of MLB, that will be succeeded eventually by some other era.

FGITD wrote:
I’ve been a big fan of MLB battling the pacing issues.


If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.


I agree - that's a total abomination. Puts ridiculous pressure on relievers as well.

My grandfather was lucky to attend the 1965 game between SF and STL on a foggy night at Candlestick where Marichal and Spahn both went 16 innings and threw 200+ pitches. SF won 1-0 in the bottom of the 16th on a Mays HR.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:02 pm

I agree, death to the extra-innings zombie runner
 
FGITD
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Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:39 pm

vikkyvik wrote:

FGITD wrote:
I’ve been a big fan of MLB battling the pacing issues.


If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.


Have to agree, for a game that’s so statistics driven it’s a disadvantage for relief pitchers starting extra innings with a base runner already on. Much easier to end up getting the loss through minimal fault of the pitcher.

Funny coincidence, I was at that game as well. While I enjoy a good battle and intense play to win, the problem with the truly long (and I mean 13+ inning) games is that they devolve into nonsense, like position players pitching etc. and by that point it seems like neither team even really cares anymore. The strategy becomes maintaining the health and readiness of your rotation/bullpen over winning the game.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:45 pm

FGITD wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:

FGITD wrote:
I’ve been a big fan of MLB battling the pacing issues.


If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.


Have to agree, for a game that’s so statistics driven it’s a disadvantage for relief pitchers starting extra innings with a base runner already on. Much easier to end up getting the loss through minimal fault of the pitcher.

Funny coincidence, I was at that game as well. While I enjoy a good battle and intense play to win, the problem with the truly long (and I mean 13+ inning) games is that they devolve into nonsense, like position players pitching etc. and by that point it seems like neither team even really cares anymore. The strategy becomes maintaining the health and readiness of your rotation/bullpen over winning the game.


Position player pitching is hilarious, I thought everyone loves that??
 
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seb146
Posts: 23903
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:56 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

For people in CLE the name makes sense and that’s all that matters. It’s an excellent move. Now if they can do something about that WS drought..:lol:


First I read about CBT and now this? White site am I on?

I find baseball as exciting as watching paint dry. I did watch when the Cubs and Boston and Toronto won their respective World Series. Those were historic moments. Other than that, meh. I understand how passionate people are about their sports. After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names, finally something is happening. I don't get it like I don't get Kraken for Seattle's new NHL team, but whatever. It makes not difference to my life at all.

Except the Kraken will be crushed by my Canucks. :)


Its not as clear cut as you make it out "After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names". Of course you can find information on groups that absolutely called for the change, but again, its not as black and white as you purport. I couldn't care less that the Washington Football Team of the Cleveland Guardians changed their names. Other than the Guardians sounding dumb to me, its just the name of a sports franchise that doesn't really effect anything. I just wanted to point out the other side of the story.


It obviously means something. There has been talk for years of changing their name and the name of the Washington Football Team. It means something.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:33 pm

FGITD wrote:
Have to agree, for a game that’s so statistics driven it’s a disadvantage for relief pitchers starting extra innings with a base runner already on. Much easier to end up getting the loss through minimal fault of the pitcher.

Funny coincidence, I was at that game as well. While I enjoy a good battle and intense play to win, the problem with the truly long (and I mean 13+ inning) games is that they devolve into nonsense, like position players pitching etc. and by that point it seems like neither team even really cares anymore. The strategy becomes maintaining the health and readiness of your rotation/bullpen over winning the game.


I'm in favor of extra innings as keeping the game less predictable, but past a certain point the extra innings aren't really doing anyone much good, it's true. Some international leagues allow ties, maybe that's the easiest solution? Perhaps allow 3-4 extra innings before calling it a tie unless it's a playoff game, then it continues until somebody wins.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:02 pm

Renaming a brand has risk. As baseball appeals to an older crowd... Meh.

People care or they don't. How the licensing revenue goes matters. Did they spend money on season tickets and merch? Those are the people to listen to.

People get attached to sports team names. It will be interesting to see the benefit or consequences of the name change.

I personally enjoy baseball. But isn't the Guardians an xfl team?
https://www.xfl.com/teams/new-york

Picking an existing name dilutes the value of a brand, in my opinion.
. Lightsaber
 
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ER757
Topic Author
Posts: 4226
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Renaming a brand has risk. As baseball appeals to an older crowd... Meh.

People care or they don't. How the licensing revenue goes matters. Did they spend money on season tickets and merch? Those are the people to listen to.

People get attached to sports team names. It will be interesting to see the benefit or consequences of the name change.

I personally enjoy baseball. But isn't the Guardians an xfl team?
https://www.xfl.com/teams/new-york

Picking an existing name dilutes the value of a brand, in my opinion.
. Lightsaber

There are quite a few shared team names across professional sports and even more if you throw in college. There are only so many viable names to go around. Just a few examples, there are Giants in MLB and NFL, Jets and Panthers in NHL and NFL, there's even two Sox in baseball (Red and White). And there's kids and grownups in Chicago (Cubs and Bears)
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12648
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:43 pm

FGITD wrote:
Funny coincidence, I was at that game as well.


Ah, so you can understand the pain of Hanley Ramirez throwing a stupid, errant throw to home plate that allowed the Angels to score and win.

FGITD wrote:
Have to agree, for a game that’s so statistics driven it’s a disadvantage for relief pitchers starting extra innings with a base runner already on. Much easier to end up getting the loss through minimal fault of the pitcher.


Not sure about the loss, but I think if that runner scores, it doesn't count as an earned run for the pitcher. Not sure how the run gets accounted for....

Aaron747 wrote:
Position player pitching is hilarious, I thought everyone loves that??


It used to be more funny when it was more of a novelty.

Newark727 wrote:
I'm in favor of extra innings as keeping the game less predictable, but past a certain point the extra innings aren't really doing anyone much good, it's true. Some international leagues allow ties, maybe that's the easiest solution? Perhaps allow 3-4 extra innings before calling it a tie unless it's a playoff game, then it continues until somebody wins.


Yeah, I think I'd be OK with a cap at, say, 12 or 13 innings. Only a very tiny percentage of games go past that.

Maybe they should just throw in a mini-home-run-derby if it's still tied at that point. :biggrin:
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:20 am

Aaron747 wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
OPS superseded batting average in importance awhile ago. I agree that it's not a good change for the game overall. Cody Bellinger of the Dodgers is hitting .160 and still playing every day Back in the day that would get you sent to AAA no matter how well you covered ground in CF.


His OPS is .556 (right in the middle of the pack), his WAR is -0.3 (near the bottom). And he's only played 43 games this season.

Anyway, what is defined as "good for the game"? I would think it's the obvious - winning (and, of course, if you're an owner, making money).

I wish the league wouldn't try and do this-or-that to make the game more like it used to be. After all, this is just another era of MLB, that will be succeeded eventually by some other era.

FGITD wrote:
I’ve been a big fan of MLB battling the pacing issues.


If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.


I agree - that's a total abomination. Puts ridiculous pressure on relievers as well.

My grandfather was lucky to attend the 1965 game between SF and STL on a foggy night at Candlestick where Marichal and Spahn both went 16 innings and threw 200+ pitches. SF won 1-0 in the bottom of the 16th on a Mays HR.


Too bad the Croix de Candlestick wasn’t around then, but getting to see two incredible pitchers and a Mays home run is still awesome.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15730
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:54 am

Alias1024 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:

His OPS is .556 (right in the middle of the pack), his WAR is -0.3 (near the bottom). And he's only played 43 games this season.

Anyway, what is defined as "good for the game"? I would think it's the obvious - winning (and, of course, if you're an owner, making money).

I wish the league wouldn't try and do this-or-that to make the game more like it used to be. After all, this is just another era of MLB, that will be succeeded eventually by some other era.



If they did it in sensible ways, sure. But removing the need for a pitcher to throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk??? How much time does that save?

Not a big fan of having a runner start on 2nd during extra innings, either. The longest game I ever attended was a 19-inning Red Sox - Angels game a few years ago. 6+ hours at the ballpark, and the Sox lost, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.


I agree - that's a total abomination. Puts ridiculous pressure on relievers as well.

My grandfather was lucky to attend the 1965 game between SF and STL on a foggy night at Candlestick where Marichal and Spahn both went 16 innings and threw 200+ pitches. SF won 1-0 in the bottom of the 16th on a Mays HR.


Too bad the Croix de Candlestick wasn’t around then, but getting to see two incredible pitchers and a Mays home run is still awesome.


Absolutely, but my money says they were probably both throwing 70 mph bloopers by the 13th :lol:
 
bpatus297
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:58 am

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

First I read about CBT and now this? White site am I on?

I find baseball as exciting as watching paint dry. I did watch when the Cubs and Boston and Toronto won their respective World Series. Those were historic moments. Other than that, meh. I understand how passionate people are about their sports. After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names, finally something is happening. I don't get it like I don't get Kraken for Seattle's new NHL team, but whatever. It makes not difference to my life at all.

Except the Kraken will be crushed by my Canucks. :)


Its not as clear cut as you make it out "After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names". Of course you can find information on groups that absolutely called for the change, but again, its not as black and white as you purport. I couldn't care less that the Washington Football Team of the Cleveland Guardians changed their names. Other than the Guardians sounding dumb to me, its just the name of a sports franchise that doesn't really effect anything. I just wanted to point out the other side of the story.


It obviously means something. There has been talk for years of changing their name and the name of the Washington Football Team. It means something.


You really do refuse to see any side of an issue other than yours.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23903
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:21 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Its not as clear cut as you make it out "After how many years of Native people calling for changes to sports team names". Of course you can find information on groups that absolutely called for the change, but again, its not as black and white as you purport. I couldn't care less that the Washington Football Team of the Cleveland Guardians changed their names. Other than the Guardians sounding dumb to me, its just the name of a sports franchise that doesn't really effect anything. I just wanted to point out the other side of the story.


It obviously means something. There has been talk for years of changing their name and the name of the Washington Football Team. It means something.


You really do refuse to see any side of an issue other than yours.


I understand people are outraged over all these name changes. That is their opinion and they are free to express that. But complete denial that these names are offensive and the offended groups should just live with it sounds more like refusing to see other sides of an issue.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It obviously means something. There has been talk for years of changing their name and the name of the Washington Football Team. It means something.


You really do refuse to see any side of an issue other than yours.


I understand people are outraged over all these name changes. That is their opinion and they are free to express that. But complete denial that these names are offensive and the offended groups should just live with it sounds more like refusing to see other sides of an issue.


Did you miss where I said that I couldn't care less about the name changes? Of course the names offended some people, the point was that its not as offensive to Native Americans as the media wants you to believe. I don't think we should be looking to offend people on purpose, but you will never satisfy everyone. There will always be people or groups that are mad for whatever reason.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:17 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I agree - that's a total abomination. Puts ridiculous pressure on relievers as well.

My grandfather was lucky to attend the 1965 game between SF and STL on a foggy night at Candlestick where Marichal and Spahn both went 16 innings and threw 200+ pitches. SF won 1-0 in the bottom of the 16th on a Mays HR.


Too bad the Croix de Candlestick wasn’t around then, but getting to see two incredible pitchers and a Mays home run is still awesome.


Absolutely, but my money says they were probably both throwing 70 mph bloopers by the 13th :lol:

:lol:
I bet they still had a little left in the tank. Pitchers threw a lot more innings back then.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:57 am

Alias1024 wrote:
:lol:
I bet they still had a little left in the tank. Pitchers threw a lot more innings back then.


Pitchers back in the day were something else. Throw 9 full innings, while also batting (successfully) and then pitching again a few days later.

I get Cy Young isn’t the best example since the top pitching award is named after him…but his records are unbelievable. 500+ wins, 800+ starts…in an era where pitchers recovered between games by having some cigarettes and a coffee.

I get they weren’t throwing 100mph but take into consideration that they literally changed the layout of the game by moving the mound backwards because these guys were throwing so fast, it’s pretty impressive
 
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seahawk
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Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:16 am

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It obviously means something. There has been talk for years of changing their name and the name of the Washington Football Team. It means something.


You really do refuse to see any side of an issue other than yours.


I understand people are outraged over all these name changes. That is their opinion and they are free to express that. But complete denial that these names are offensive and the offended groups should just live with it sounds more like refusing to see other sides of an issue.


Offensive as the

U.S. Department of the Interior - Indian Affairs
The American Indian Athletic Hall Of Fame
The National Congress of American Indians
The National Museum of the American Indian
The Association on American Indian Affairs
...

The old logo was offensive, the name imho is not. To be honest I find cowboys or rangers more offensive, as those names celebrate the attackers.
 
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ER757
Topic Author
Posts: 4226
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:12 pm

FGITD wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
:lol:
I bet they still had a little left in the tank. Pitchers threw a lot more innings back then.


Pitchers back in the day were something else. Throw 9 full innings, while also batting (successfully) and then pitching again a few days later.

I get Cy Young isn’t the best example since the top pitching award is named after him…but his records are unbelievable. 500+ wins, 800+ starts…in an era where pitchers recovered between games by having some cigarettes and a coffee.

I get they weren’t throwing 100mph but take into consideration that they literally changed the layout of the game by moving the mound backwards because these guys were throwing so fast, it’s pretty impressive

No kidding - the complete game is on the endangered species list. Back when I was a kid (the 1960's) complete games were the norm, not the exception. There was no such thing as a "closer." There were relief pitchers but they weren't the specialists you see today. They'd come in and often pitch two or three innings.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Cleveland Indians Change Their Name

Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:12 am

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread. The name "Guardians" is O.K. Their logo, a baseball bookended with two capital Gs, is not. They can do better. Actually, I was hoping that they would adopt the name of "Great Lakers," but an NBA franchise that was founded in Minneapolis and currently plays in Los Angeles might have objected.

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