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petertenthije
Posts: 4334
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:15 pm

Bricktop wrote:
The point is Trump is not President., Joe Biden is. Whatever plan is being executed now is one he signed off on.

Too easy. During the Bush and Trump years we heard for years how everything was the fault of Clinton / Obama for leaving problems or not preparing for X.


Bricktop wrote:
Be honest. You think Biden (hypothetically) looked at a (hypothetical) Trump plan and (hypothetically) said "Yeah, let's go with this"?

I expect the Pentagon and security services to have signed of on any plan Trump made.

I also expect the Pentagon and security services to raise any points of doubt upon Biden's inauguration. Not necessarily doubts caused by Trump's original plan, but caused by updated inteligence. Both with regard to the Taliban's capabilities, and the (lack of) capabilities of the Afghan army.

And I expect Biden to have ordered his chief of staff to provide any such updates immediately, considering the risks associated with the pull-out. If he did not do that, then that's on him to answer for. No doubt there will be a congressional hearing that will put all cards on the table.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:17 pm

Bricktop wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Never mind what Trump would or would not have done. Biden is President. He tore up every Trump policy to the glee of many here, and could have totally rewritten anything his way in Afghanistan. It matters nothing if his critics or his supporters are hypocrites. The execution of the withdrawal is his to own. This mess is on him.

He actually delayed the withdrawal by 3 months. The troops should have been out by the end of May, per the original agreement. So do tell us more about how following the original Trump plan (full withdrawal by May 31) would have been any different. Heck, do tell us how Trump would have handled things differently. Do you really think the original plan was going to work, if there ever was one? Do you think that withdrawing by May would have resulted in the Afghans taking full control?

I'm almost certain that if Biden has said "no, sorry, we gotta stay because if we don't, the central government collapses", your comment would be not on how this is a mess, but rather complaining that:
1. A broken campaign promise (you know...because all presidents are honest, especially our last one)
2. More time in the longest war ever, which means more money spent
3. Another undoing of a Trump plan.

Sorry. Right, it's Trump's fault. Gotcha. Biden is a helpless bystander. He reversed every Trump policy everywhere, but this one slipped through the cracks and he decided to stay the course. Even the rolleyes emoticon is too weak for that logic.


Negative - you are oversimplifying a major policy issue into a partisan game of who gets credit and blame. The sickest thing in such a discussion is to play favorites. AFG is *not* a legit playground for crass partisanship.

Some excellent comments worth thinking about today from conservative foreign policy writer Tom Nichols:

We cannot make policy in a country of enraged partisans who will take positions based on where they think the other guys *are not* standing. That kind of deranged partisanship is not worth one soldier's life.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 01955?s=21

To avoid today, we would have had to make different decisions at least a decade ago, or more. We didn't. We waved flags and sang along with Lee Greenwood and said "Make sure whatever that thing is over there doesn't annoy us too much."

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 95816?s=21
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:20 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
As my old history professor said about one of my papers, "All good stuff but not really relevant". The poop torch was passed from Bush to Obama to Trump to Biden. By circumstance, Biden pulled the trigger on withdrawal, and he's f#cked it up. That simple. He took ownership of the good, the bad and the ugly on January 20th. It wasn't by accident. He wanted the job.

This seems to be a thing with Republican presidents. They "negotiate" a withdrawal, they are succeeded by a Democrat who then follows through with the agreement, and they're somehow the bad guys.

We saw it with Iraq. The Bush administration negotiated the withdrawal of troops before Obama was elected. Obama followed through. "OMG!!! HOW DARE HE REMOVE TROOPS?!"

So now we're seeing Afghanistan. The Trump administration negotiated with the enemy (not even the Afghan government). Biden follows through. "OMG!! IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!"

Quite interesting that the GOP had removed all references of that "historic peace deal" from their website. Thank goodness for the Wayback Machine.

Perhaps if they knew how to execute a withdrawal, maybe things would have been better. Obama's bungling led to the rise of ISIS. What will be the result of this fiasco? We'll see.

It's not just the man at the top though. The generals, the intelligence community and the Dept. of State all have culpability. How could they have been so wrong? Let's see if anyone is held accountable. I doubt it.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:22 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
As my old history professor said about one of my papers, "All good stuff but not really relevant". The poop torch was passed from Bush to Obama to Trump to Biden. By circumstance, Biden pulled the trigger on withdrawal, and he's f#cked it up. That simple. He took ownership of the good, the bad and the ugly on January 20th. It wasn't by accident. He wanted the job.

This seems to be a thing with Republican presidents. They "negotiate" a withdrawal, they are succeeded by a Democrat who then follows through with the agreement, and they're somehow the bad guys.

We saw it with Iraq. The Bush administration negotiated the withdrawal of troops before Obama was elected. Obama followed through. "OMG!!! HOW DARE HE REMOVE TROOPS?!"

So now we're seeing Afghanistan. The Trump administration negotiated with the enemy (not even the Afghan government). Biden follows through. "OMG!! IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!"

Quite interesting that the GOP had removed all references of that "historic peace deal" from their website. Thank goodness for the Wayback Machine.

Democrats are always cleaning up after republican catastrophes--wars, economic collapse, covid, you name it. W went into Afthanistan and Iraq with no strategy and trillions later surprise! Disaster.

The fact is the last guy was always going to have the grenade blow up in his face--that's why three other administrations kicked the can down the road.

NIKV69 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
What proof do you have that:
1) Trump left a plan at all,
2) Trump's plan was roundfiled
3) That Trump's plan would have been more succesful

None as to all three. The point is Trump is not President., Joe Biden is. Whatever plan is being executed now is one he signed off on.
Be honest. You think Biden (hypothetically) looked at a (hypothetical) Trump plan and (hypothetically) said "Yeah, let's go with this"?


Whataboutism? How Rich. The simple truth is we have a president now that China and the Taliban don't fear and that is a huge problem.

No one is afraid of Trump other than republicans who are terrified of crossing him. He wrote love letters to Kim Jong Un for god's sake.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4120
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:23 pm

Just to put a little frosting in this cake, Uzbekistan just shot down an Afghan military jet that was about to cross into their airspace.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 021-08-16/

Edit: Info on twitter that il looks like a Super Tucano. Several a/c were flown by the Afghan AF into Tajikistan to prevent capture by the Taliban (both fixed and rotary wing)

Nav error thinking he was in Tajik airspace? No one answering the phone in Tashkent?
Last edited by JJJ on Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
He actually delayed the withdrawal by 3 months. The troops should have been out by the end of May, per the original agreement. So do tell us more about how following the original Trump plan (full withdrawal by May 31) would have been any different. Heck, do tell us how Trump would have handled things differently. Do you really think the original plan was going to work, if there ever was one? Do you think that withdrawing by May would have resulted in the Afghans taking full control?

I'm almost certain that if Biden has said "no, sorry, we gotta stay because if we don't, the central government collapses", your comment would be not on how this is a mess, but rather complaining that:
1. A broken campaign promise (you know...because all presidents are honest, especially our last one)
2. More time in the longest war ever, which means more money spent
3. Another undoing of a Trump plan.

Sorry. Right, it's Trump's fault. Gotcha. Biden is a helpless bystander. He reversed every Trump policy everywhere, but this one slipped through the cracks and he decided to stay the course. Even the rolleyes emoticon is too weak for that logic.


Negative - you are oversimplifying a major policy issue into a partisan game of who gets credit and blame. The sickest thing in such a discussion is to play favorites. AFG is *not* a legit playground for crass partisanship.

Some excellent comments worth thinking about today from conservative foreign policy writer Tom Nichols:

We cannot make policy in a country of enraged partisans who will take positions based on where they think the other guys *are not* standing. That kind of deranged partisanship is not worth one soldier's life.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 01955?s=21

To avoid today, we would have had to make different decisions at least a decade ago, or more. We didn't. We waved flags and sang along with Lee Greenwood and said "Make sure whatever that thing is over there doesn't annoy us too much."

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 95816?s=21

Blame goes where it is deserved. Biden deserves it. He is POTUS. It's not partisan to say that. It's partisan to piously pretend it's not, or that it was his predecessor's fault.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:29 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Sorry. Right, it's Trump's fault. Gotcha. Biden is a helpless bystander. He reversed every Trump policy everywhere, but this one slipped through the cracks and he decided to stay the course. Even the rolleyes emoticon is too weak for that logic.


Negative - you are oversimplifying a major policy issue into a partisan game of who gets credit and blame. The sickest thing in such a discussion is to play favorites. AFG is *not* a legit playground for crass partisanship.

Some excellent comments worth thinking about today from conservative foreign policy writer Tom Nichols:

We cannot make policy in a country of enraged partisans who will take positions based on where they think the other guys *are not* standing. That kind of deranged partisanship is not worth one soldier's life.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 01955?s=21

To avoid today, we would have had to make different decisions at least a decade ago, or more. We didn't. We waved flags and sang along with Lee Greenwood and said "Make sure whatever that thing is over there doesn't annoy us too much."

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 95816?s=21

Blame goes where it is deserved. Biden deserves it. He is POTUS. It's not partisan to say that. It's partisan to piously pretend it's not, or that it was his predecessor's fault.


Gross oversimplification. Those statements were not made.

And yes, it's partisan to apportion blame in that way on a complex foreign policy that has spanned four administrations. Critical thinking says that's the only rational analysis.

Anyway, the more important point is that we are nationally incoherent about this. Citizens are enraged not by any one policy - well, some of the folks who know what's about to happen are - but by who they think is getting credit and who benefits. This is nuts.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 61152?s=20
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:29 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Sorry. Right, it's Trump's fault. Gotcha. Biden is a helpless bystander. He reversed every Trump policy everywhere, but this one slipped through the cracks and he decided to stay the course. Even the rolleyes emoticon is too weak for that logic.


Negative - you are oversimplifying a major policy issue into a partisan game of who gets credit and blame. The sickest thing in such a discussion is to play favorites. AFG is *not* a legit playground for crass partisanship.

Some excellent comments worth thinking about today from conservative foreign policy writer Tom Nichols:

We cannot make policy in a country of enraged partisans who will take positions based on where they think the other guys *are not* standing. That kind of deranged partisanship is not worth one soldier's life.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 01955?s=21

To avoid today, we would have had to make different decisions at least a decade ago, or more. We didn't. We waved flags and sang along with Lee Greenwood and said "Make sure whatever that thing is over there doesn't annoy us too much."

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 95816?s=21

Blame goes where it is deserved. Biden deserves it. He is POTUS. It's not partisan to say that. It's partisan to piously pretend it's not, or that it was his predecessor's fault.



Then you would be willing to blame Trump as well for releasing the new Taliban President from Prison and for signing the agreement that lead to this as well, correct? You would also concur that Trump and Pompeo are absolute disasters at reading the situation and providing an accurate plan ?
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Negative - you are oversimplifying a major policy issue into a partisan game of who gets credit and blame. The sickest thing in such a discussion is to play favorites. AFG is *not* a legit playground for crass partisanship.

Some excellent comments worth thinking about today from conservative foreign policy writer Tom Nichols:

We cannot make policy in a country of enraged partisans who will take positions based on where they think the other guys *are not* standing. That kind of deranged partisanship is not worth one soldier's life.

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 01955?s=21

To avoid today, we would have had to make different decisions at least a decade ago, or more. We didn't. We waved flags and sang along with Lee Greenwood and said "Make sure whatever that thing is over there doesn't annoy us too much."

https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status ... 95816?s=21

Blame goes where it is deserved. Biden deserves it. He is POTUS. It's not partisan to say that. It's partisan to piously pretend it's not, or that it was his predecessor's fault.



Then you would be willing to blame Trump as well for releasing the new Taliban President from Prison and for signing the agreement that lead to this as well, correct? You would also concur that Trump and Pompeo are absolute disasters at reading the situation and providing an accurate plan ?

Yes absolutely to the first, and I can't speak to the latter as I have no knowledge of what plan Trump did or didn't have. Given that Biden has actively rejected everything Trump however, it is not reasonable to say that the plan currently being executed can be laid at Trump's feet.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:57 pm

Bricktop wrote:
I can't speak to the latter as I have no knowledge of what plan Trump did or didn't have. Given that Biden has actively rejected everything Trump however, it is not reasonable to say that the plan currently being executed can be laid at Trump's feet.

Then it's safe to say that your logic makes no sense because if you're not knowledgeable about the plan Trump had or didn't have, then you can't be certain that Biden altered it. Yet all your statements, so far, have seemed to indicate that you have some knowledge of what was planned (not just the high level objectives, but how they'd be executed) given how you keep insisting that Biden altered or scrapped it.

Which one is it then?
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Gross oversimplification. Those statements were not made.

And yes, it's partisan to apportion blame in that way on a complex foreign policy that has spanned four administrations. Critical thinking says that's the only rational analysis.

Anyway, the more important point is that we are nationally incoherent about this. Citizens are enraged not by any one policy - well, some of the folks who know what's about to happen are - but by who they think is getting credit and who benefits. This is nuts.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 61152?s=20

WADR, I think your defense of Biden is deflection based on partisanship, at the same time actually calling your dissenters partisan. Whatevz.

He inherited a s#itshow for sure, but the way he has dealt with it has been pathetic and that's not a partisan line of thought. If Trump, either Bush, Reagan or Nixon had done it, I would have called it pathetic. Ike simply wouldn't have done it. Just wouldn't have.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:00 pm

Bricktop wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Blame goes where it is deserved. Biden deserves it. He is POTUS. It's not partisan to say that. It's partisan to piously pretend it's not, or that it was his predecessor's fault.



Then you would be willing to blame Trump as well for releasing the new Taliban President from Prison and for signing the agreement that lead to this as well, correct? You would also concur that Trump and Pompeo are absolute disasters at reading the situation and providing an accurate plan ?

Yes absolutely to the first, and I can't speak to the latter as I have no knowledge of what plan Trump did or didn't have. Given that Biden has actively rejected everything Trump however, it is not reasonable to say that the plan currently being executed can be laid at Trump's feet.



Then why did Pompeo not answer to Wallace's questions about the Taliban deals, and why did the GOP remove their Ra Ra informercial on the deal from their website? If the deal was something to be proud of, why was it scrubbed?
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14856
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:13 pm

I'm yet to read about an alternative plan that would have worked better.

Start the withdrawal, then send back tons of troops again at the first sign of a Taliban move ? Then stay 20 more years ?
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1549
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
Then why did Pompeo not answer to Wallace's questions about the Taliban deals, and why did the GOP remove their Ra Ra informercial on the deal from their website? If the deal was something to be proud of, why was it scrubbed?
I'm not their mouthpiece. I have no clue, and it's irrelevant isn't it? We are where we are despite your deflections. History ain't gonna be kind on this.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:24 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Gross oversimplification. Those statements were not made.

And yes, it's partisan to apportion blame in that way on a complex foreign policy that has spanned four administrations. Critical thinking says that's the only rational analysis.

Anyway, the more important point is that we are nationally incoherent about this. Citizens are enraged not by any one policy - well, some of the folks who know what's about to happen are - but by who they think is getting credit and who benefits. This is nuts.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 61152?s=20

WADR, I think your defense of Biden is deflection based on partisanship, at the same time actually calling your dissenters partisan. Whatevz.

He inherited a s#itshow for sure, but the way he has dealt with it has been pathetic and that's not a partisan line of thought. If Trump, either Bush, Reagan or Nixon had done it, I would have called it pathetic. Ike simply wouldn't have done it. Just wouldn't have.


I did not defend Biden - I have blamed four presidents involved in this mess for lying to the public about AFG, including Biden.

What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1085
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:27 pm

Russians held out in Leningrad.
German troops held Dunkirk until the end of the war
German Volkstrum and remnants of broken divisions made the Red Army pay for every inch of Germany
French Legionnaires held out for weeks in Dien Bien Phu
Japanese troops made the US pay dearly for Iwo and Okinawa

And the video's from the airport show military age men trying to get on the planes.
 
GDB
Posts: 14412
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:29 pm

johns624 wrote:
This is great. Many Europeans have been telling us for years that we don't belong in Afghanistan and should have left years ago. So, now we leave and they're still not happy. The British are mad we left? They basically left years ago.


No, there to the end, including the post 2014 stabilisation force until this year. Their leaving was effectively dictated by the US, under Trump it would have been in May though I struggle to see what difference it would make, my views on the current UK government are very negative but Defence Secretary Wallace is a former Soldier who will be reflecting the real anger that many feel for all those killed or badly injured only to have this situation occur.
Further up it was asked whether ‘the Brits’ had ever won any counter insurgencies, Malaya, Cyprus, Borneo, Oman, as far as you can judge a win against a non conventional force. Look who wasn’t involved in these.
Considering the stated goal of the Provisional IRA’s ‘armed struggle’ was to force through violence the withdrawl of all British influence in N.I despite the majority there not wanting this and the goal of the military/security presence was to hold the line until political sense prevailed, it’s clear who did not ‘win’. Not that a military victory was possible as one side advised it’s political masters from the start.
But it took decades. Longer than Afghanistan not that I am directly comparing the two places.

LBJ insulted, threatened, put direct economic pressure on the UK to join in Vietnam and many in the US resented or even hated us for not even sending the token presence they wanted. Until 1966 the UK forces were winning in Borneo, without a single bomb dropped from an aicraft, then with that over, then the withdrawl East Of Suez, a goal of US ‘anti colonialism’ until the Cold War when suddendly we had to stay it seemed. Too late and too unaffordable.

Don’t think I am just US bashing here since unlike the wise Harold Wilson who listened to his own Defence Secretary and refused LBJ, too many British PM’s have drunk the same Kool Aid as their American counterparts, Blair was more aware of the Mid East and did beleive in nation building but he ignored his own experts, Cabinet decision making broke down and we ended up in Iraq.
In 2006 the UK led an enhanced NATO mission in Afghanistan, the GWB admins lack of interest in Afghanistan after chasing the Taliban out, using help from other groups barely less brutal and at least as corrupt, if not more, problem was the Taliban had several years to regroup, some of the Parachute Regiment troops based in FOBs in now hostile areas had firefights the most intense since the Korean War.

But all the above his history, one that certain Western nations, the US and increasingly the UK too, simply do not learn from, or rather elect those to power that haven’t.
What is happening in Afghanistan now is most of all about the suffering many in Afghanistan, who put their trust in us will endure, likely further mass migrations in a world already choked with them from other wars and environmental pressures.
This is a massive defeat for the West, the US in the eyes of Islamic fundamentalists, has cut and run again, Lebanon 1984, Somalia 1993, Iraq 2011, they even see the felling of the Shah of Iran in 1979 the same way.

Bear in mind that the late, unlamented Bin Laden took the Soviet withdrawl as a victory, of ‘pure’ Islam against a superpower.

Biden is left holding the baby, well he was against the Obama surge after 2009, though it is ironic to have it claimed further up that all his foreign policy is always wrong, from of all things, a GWB cheerleader!
Remember, the admin so concerned about Afghanistan and the then link to the terrorists that even while the fires in the collapsed twin towers still were burning were looking at bombing targets - in Iraq!
According to an exasperated intel officer.
Whether there will be political blowback for Biden rather depends if any kind of terrorist group sets up in Afghanistan again, maybe the Taliban have learned from last time not to allow that, then again it was thought less than two days ago Kabul would hold on for a month or so.

What a horrible century we live in, the worst terror attacks, a bloody 20 year endgame leading to this, the US recently and the UK now, having the worst leaders in their modern histories, the environmental chickens that even I, at my bog standard comprehensive 40 years ago learned about, coming home to roost.
Know what? A part of me preferred the Cold War, if nothing else it encouraged restraint on both sides, including voters in two leading NATO nations.
Last edited by GDB on Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:30 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Russians held out in Leningrad.
German troops held Dunkirk until the end of the war
German Volkstrum and remnants of broken divisions made the Red Army pay for every inch of Germany
French Legionnaires held out for weeks in Dien Bien Phu
Japanese troops made the US pay dearly for Iwo and Okinawa

And the video's from the airport show military age men trying to get on the planes.


It’s rather stunning. Entirely military age men - as if they left the women and kids at home and made a run for it. Smh...
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:34 pm

Bricktop wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Then why did Pompeo not answer to Wallace's questions about the Taliban deals, and why did the GOP remove their Ra Ra informercial on the deal from their website? If the deal was something to be proud of, why was it scrubbed?
I'm not their mouthpiece. I have no clue, and it's irrelevant isn't it? We are where we are despite your deflections. History ain't gonna be kind on this.



You want to blame the latest president for decisions and intel breakdowns that lead to a US withdrawal?

You are admitting incompetence in the Trump administration, but are laying all the blame at Biden's feet?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:58 pm

An excellent reminder and take here from policy writer David Rothkopf:

If the lesson you take away from Afghanistan is that the endgame has misplayed you are missing the point. The point is almost the entire business has been misplayed from shortly after the very beginning until now. It is not a few weeks of misjudgments. It is 20 yrs of them.

https://twitter.com/djrothkopf/status/1 ... 24960?s=21
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
An excellent reminder and take here from policy writer David Rothkopf:

If the lesson you take away from Afghanistan is that the endgame has misplayed you are missing the point. The point is almost the entire business has been misplayed from shortly after the very beginning until now. It is not a few weeks of misjudgments. It is 20 yrs of them.

https://twitter.com/djrothkopf/status/1 ... 24960?s=21


it is 20 years of misplays, and it has to be highly frustrating for the soldiers, families and friends of those involved since then. After 20 years and trillions we are left where we started. A bad faith government is in control of Afghanistan, and the consequences going forward are grim.

All administrations had a hand in it, but why did Trump see fit to withdraw, and what were the intelligence failures in that decision?
Why did Biden not see what was coming, and if he did, why did he continue the withdrawal?

These are beginning inquiries into what must be looked at as a failure to foresee what has occurred.

Is there a coalition willing to go back in to stop this though?
 
FGITD
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:29 pm

The true American experience is being told there’s no money to fix infrastructure, feed the hungry or help the homeless, but also spending $2 trillion and 20 years to fight a war that came to nothing in a matter of months. Imagine you had that money and time to improve the US, what you could do

I feel for the families who lost loved ones. It must be difficult to believe they died for something worthwhile when it all went back to the way it was so quickly
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:36 pm

An interesting view on the last year or so in Afghanistan:

https://twitter.com/turningbones/status ... 9387278340


1. Feb 2020
@mikepompeo
gives in to Taliban at Doha, releases prisoners (including current leader), ends sanctions and has Trump announce date.



2. Learning of this deal desertions within the Afghan forces immediately increases.

3. The Taliban immediately start the takeover. Offering amnesty and cash to village governors and military forces so they can just roll on through without confrontation.

4. Desertions start to snowball, this has been known for well over a year in the special forces community.



5. The Taliban works their deals for over a year and a half moving from the outskirts to the provincial leadership thus ensuring an unchecked march all the way to Kabul when the time comes.

6. US begins withdrawal, it doesn't matter who the president is, the Taliban rolls in.


Pompeo's deal and Trump stating the Taliban are a force of good that will fight terrorism was the final nail in the coffin regarding the morale/loyalty of the vast majority of the Afghani leaders and military. If you must play the blame game for the withdrawal, there's the facts.

Hibatullah Akhundzada is the current supreme leader. Abdul Ghani Baradar, one of the original Taliban founders was released by Pakistan in 2018 on request of the US Government.



Taking this into account and everything else that's happened, it's rather clear to me the blame for Afghanistan falling to the Taliban in the last year lies firmly at the feet of Trump and Pompeo. Two people completely out of their depth in National politics let alone international. They were clearly playing for headlines, but instead got played by the Taliban. Nato followed sure, but they were in no position to go it alone.

Biden was never going to authorise tens of thousands of troops to deploy back to Afghan to try and stop the Taliban's advance, so it was all only a question of time. Yes it happened much faster than anyone really expected, and the ANA just disintegrated, however the above tweets if true explain why.

How could he have put tens of thousands of more troops back there when 75% of American's want the US out, mid terms are coming, he has a tiny majority in the house, and a car crash of a pandemic thanks to Trump and the Republicans. Politically it would have been suicide. And what would it have achieved? Another few years grace? By the sounds of it it was too late by the time he came to office anyway..and there was a signed deal done and dusted with the Taliban by the US.

The US is great at shock and awe but you guys haven't a clue about how to win peace or nation build. Should never have gone in, but once there you had a duty to build it back up. You'll now just create a new generation of terrorists, more embolden than ever before. The world will be a more dangerous place because of it and leaders of Iran will be celebrating right now as well.

I'm actually really angry about how this ended, and feel incredibly sorry for all the kids who finally got to go to school. Especially the girls and young women who had a future, who had opportunities. That will now all go.
 
GDB
Posts: 14412
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:43 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
An excellent reminder and take here from policy writer David Rothkopf:

If the lesson you take away from Afghanistan is that the endgame has misplayed you are missing the point. The point is almost the entire business has been misplayed from shortly after the very beginning until now. It is not a few weeks of misjudgments. It is 20 yrs of them.

https://twitter.com/djrothkopf/status/1 ... 24960?s=21


it is 20 years of misplays, and it has to be highly frustrating for the soldiers, families and friends of those involved since then. After 20 years and trillions we are left where we started. A bad faith government is in control of Afghanistan, and the consequences going forward are grim.

All administrations had a hand in it, but why did Trump see fit to withdraw, and what were the intelligence failures in that decision?
Why did Biden not see what was coming, and if he did, why did he continue the withdrawal?

These are beginning inquiries into what must be looked at as a failure to foresee what has occurred.

Is there a coalition willing to go back in to stop this though?


Frustrating to put it mildly, on Sky News a former British soldier asks what he lost his legs for?
Trump did not give a toss beyond his mumbling about ending foreign wars, (then trying to provoke Iran at the start of 2020), Biden as I mentioned was not a supporter of the surge as VP, his political cover, for now depending on how events unfold beyond Afghan borders at least, is that the US after 20 years and all that blood and treasure is in the grip of a pandemic and dangerously divisive politics at home, so has to focus on that, plus his domestic agenda which is what ultimately an administration is judged on by voters.

For all our anger, hand wringing, real concern even, the political calculation is based on just that, these have been unpopular wars with the American public for 15 years.
Had there been as in the 60's the Draft and then the economic fallout due to the massive costs of SE Asia, (it's 50 years since the US pulled out of Bretton Woods), then the US and by extension any other Western nation, would have been out long before now.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5818
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:58 pm

kaitak wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Berlin airlift anyone ?


I was thinking more about the fall of Saigon - and unlike VIetnam, we're unlikely to get a good musical out of this one!

I feel very badly for the Afghan people, especially women and girls, who are going to face a horrific time under the Taliban; I suspect that we're going to see a major refugee crisis and Pakistan is probably going to bear the brunt of it.

But what was the alternative? An open ended commitment? This was always going to happen. Afghanistan was a money pit. Have you seen the amounts spent on its military, literally over USD$1TRN, and yet it failed in a week. There is something very wrong there.

Pulling out of Afghanistan was a brave decision, but one that had to be taken. I only hope the Biden administration makes provision to take in Afghan immigrants on compassionate grounds. It's the least it can do.

It seems more like money not spent at the right place than the total amount. Surely Taliban's total budget over past 20 years should be less than 1 trillion usd
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:00 pm

FGITD wrote:
The true American experience is being told there’s no money to fix infrastructure, feed the hungry or help the homeless, but also spending $2 trillion and 20 years to fight a war that came to nothing in a matter of months. Imagine you had that money and time to improve the US, what you could do

I feel for the families who lost loved ones. It must be difficult to believe they died for something worthwhile when it all went back to the way it was so quickly

Did it even last a week?

The whole thing reminds me of UA232...we were just circling for 15 years fully aware that the landing would be a complete disaster. Trump pointed us toward SUX and Biden landed the plane.

Still horrifying all around.

GDB wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
An excellent reminder and take here from policy writer David Rothkopf:

If the lesson you take away from Afghanistan is that the endgame has misplayed you are missing the point. The point is almost the entire business has been misplayed from shortly after the very beginning until now. It is not a few weeks of misjudgments. It is 20 yrs of them.

https://twitter.com/djrothkopf/status/1 ... 24960?s=21


it is 20 years of misplays, and it has to be highly frustrating for the soldiers, families and friends of those involved since then. After 20 years and trillions we are left where we started. A bad faith government is in control of Afghanistan, and the consequences going forward are grim.

All administrations had a hand in it, but why did Trump see fit to withdraw, and what were the intelligence failures in that decision?
Why did Biden not see what was coming, and if he did, why did he continue the withdrawal?

These are beginning inquiries into what must be looked at as a failure to foresee what has occurred.

Is there a coalition willing to go back in to stop this though?


Frustrating to put it mildly, on Sky News a former British soldier asks what he lost his legs for?
Trump did not give a toss beyond his mumbling about ending foreign wars, (then trying to provoke Iran at the start of 2020), Biden as I mentioned was not a supporter of the surge as VP, his political cover, for now depending on how events unfold beyond Afghan borders at least, is that the US after 20 years and all that blood and treasure is in the grip of a pandemic and dangerously divisive politics at home, so has to focus on that, plus his domestic agenda which is what ultimately an administration is judged on by voters.

For all our anger, hand wringing, real concern even, the political calculation is based on just that, these have been unpopular wars with the American public for 15 years.
Had there been as in the 60's the Draft and then the economic fallout due to the massive costs of SE Asia, (it's 50 years since the US pulled out of Bretton Woods), then the US and by extension any other Western nation, would have been out long before now.

To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
johns624
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:01 pm

What I don't understand is how many foreign nationals are still in Afghanistan. I understand that the end came sooner (by only weeks) than anticipated, but what were these people thinking? Especially those from countries who don't have the resources to rescue them. Did they look on it as a great adventure, or what?
 
wardialer
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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:02 pm

I strongly believe that the 5000 troops that were sent to protect Kabul airport will eliminate all the Taliban takeover for good.

This takeover by the Taliban will not last long as US troops should handle the situation along with sending drones to eliminate the Taliban.

We all know that the US will handle this within a week and Kabul will be free.
 
avier
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:12 pm

The whole world knows who's the current president of US. So I'm not sure why some dragging the former president(s) in here. This whole blame game doesn't reflect well on the current administration tbh. Especially when the current sitting president said he won't be like his predecessor; i.e keep blaming former presidents for current issues.

Aaron747 wrote:
What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.

But partisan statements on a complex issue to discredit Trump are absolutely fine it seems. Like this below:

Reinhardt wrote:
Taking this into account and everything else that's happened, it's rather clear to me the blame for Afghanistan falling to the Taliban in the last year lies firmly at the feet of Trump and Pompeo.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:17 pm

avier wrote:
The whole world knows who's the current president of US. So I'm not sure why some dragging the former president(s) in here. This whole blame game doesn't reflect well on the current administration tbh. Especially when the current sitting president said he won't be like his predecessor; i.e keep blaming former presidents for current issues.

Aaron747 wrote:
What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.

But partisan statements on a complex issue to discredit Trump are absolutely fine it seems. Like this below:

Reinhardt wrote:
Taking this into account and everything else that's happened, it's rather clear to me the blame for Afghanistan falling to the Taliban in the last year lies firmly at the feet of Trump and Pompeo.


So you're saying that Trump wasn't president for 4 years ? Or are you saying he didn't do anything regarding Afghanistan ? If he did something, did it help or did it hurt ?
 
johns624
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:24 pm

wardialer wrote:
I strongly believe that the 5000 troops that were sent to protect Kabul airport will eliminate all the Taliban takeover for good.

This takeover by the Taliban will not last long as US troops should handle the situation along with sending drones to eliminate the Taliban.

We all know that the US will handle this within a week and Kabul will be free.
You forgot your "ROTFLMAO" emoticon.
 
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ER757
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:26 pm

wardialer wrote:
I strongly believe that the 5000 troops that were sent to protect Kabul airport will eliminate all the Taliban takeover for good.

This takeover by the Taliban will not last long as US troops should handle the situation along with sending drones to eliminate the Taliban.

We all know that the US will handle this within a week and Kabul will be free.

You forgot to use the sarcasm emoji
 
GDB
Posts: 14412
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:46 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
The true American experience is being told there’s no money to fix infrastructure, feed the hungry or help the homeless, but also spending $2 trillion and 20 years to fight a war that came to nothing in a matter of months. Imagine you had that money and time to improve the US, what you could do

I feel for the families who lost loved ones. It must be difficult to believe they died for something worthwhile when it all went back to the way it was so quickly

Did it even last a week?

The whole thing reminds me of UA232...we were just circling for 15 years fully aware that the landing would be a complete disaster. Trump pointed us toward SUX and Biden landed the plane.

Still horrifying all around.

GDB wrote:
casinterest wrote:

it is 20 years of misplays, and it has to be highly frustrating for the soldiers, families and friends of those involved since then. After 20 years and trillions we are left where we started. A bad faith government is in control of Afghanistan, and the consequences going forward are grim.

All administrations had a hand in it, but why did Trump see fit to withdraw, and what were the intelligence failures in that decision?
Why did Biden not see what was coming, and if he did, why did he continue the withdrawal?

These are beginning inquiries into what must be looked at as a failure to foresee what has occurred.

Is there a coalition willing to go back in to stop this though?


Frustrating to put it mildly, on Sky News a former British soldier asks what he lost his legs for?
Trump did not give a toss beyond his mumbling about ending foreign wars, (then trying to provoke Iran at the start of 2020), Biden as I mentioned was not a supporter of the surge as VP, his political cover, for now depending on how events unfold beyond Afghan borders at least, is that the US after 20 years and all that blood and treasure is in the grip of a pandemic and dangerously divisive politics at home, so has to focus on that, plus his domestic agenda which is what ultimately an administration is judged on by voters.

For all our anger, hand wringing, real concern even, the political calculation is based on just that, these have been unpopular wars with the American public for 15 years.
Had there been as in the 60's the Draft and then the economic fallout due to the massive costs of SE Asia, (it's 50 years since the US pulled out of Bretton Woods), then the US and by extension any other Western nation, would have been out long before now.

To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.


At first, with Iraq the political cost started with the 2006 mid terms, (with maybe added who botched the Katrina response added), US forces in Afghanistan only started to surge after 2009, then naturally after a few years and the deaths and injuries came the opposition. For the same reasons as so many times post WW2, the lack of a clear conventional enemy and therefore a quick victory that is easy to quantify. Preferably mostly done from the air.

But in the minds of most I guess who just want their troops not to be involved in such operations, Iraq and Afghanistan are linked, certainly the obsession with one made any limited chance of success with the other impossible.
To the average voter, not unreasonably it seems, a futile waste that as others have pointed out, plays even worse in more deprived communities, ironically also a major recruitment area for the military.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:12 pm

avier wrote:
The whole world knows who's the current president of US. So I'm not sure why some dragging the former president(s) in here. This whole blame game doesn't reflect well on the current administration tbh. Especially when the current sitting president said he won't be like his predecessor; i.e keep blaming former presidents for current issues.

Aaron747 wrote:
What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.

But partisan statements on a complex issue to discredit Trump are absolutely fine it seems. Like this below:

Reinhardt wrote:
Taking this into account and everything else that's happened, it's rather clear to me the blame for Afghanistan falling to the Taliban in the last year lies firmly at the feet of Trump and Pompeo.

It's impossible to talk about the end, without the twenty years it took to get to the end. If you're upset about the steps it took us to get here, that's not partisanship, that's history.

This is also a nice lil vignette of why Americans are so triggered by critical race theory. They *hate* learning about the role they played historically in generating today's news. Every complex issue needs to be distilled into the simplest choice between good guy and bad guy with absolutely no historical baggage or consideration whatsoever because it triggers us and we can never ever be made to think about how the choices we made got us to where we are now.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:31 pm

Interesting Article in the NYT about what this all represents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/opin ... liban.html

A new start 20 years down the line. Will the Taliban be able to handle the needs of their peoples?
Will they find success dealing with their neighbors?

A lot more communication is possible in Afghanistan these days. Will they North Korea it all?
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:41 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.

Well, they wanted in because passions were high after 9/11 and the Taliban did not cooperate in handing over OBL or expelling Al Qaeda. But after a while, it was clear that there was no end game and it cooled off. The Taliban were driven out of power and a central government was installed, which couldn't even stand on its own. Candidate after candidate promised to bring the war to an end but I guess Iraq gave them pause. But at some point, they had to bite the bullet. As much as I'd like to help Afghanistan rebuild, unless it was a multinational effort, we should just head out. If they weren't ready then, they were never gonna be ready. Enough resources have been invested over there; time to use that money at home.
 
kelval
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:25 pm

Bricktop wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Never mind what Trump would or would not have done. Biden is President. He tore up every Trump policy to the glee of many here, and could have totally rewritten anything his way in Afghanistan. It matters nothing if his critics or his supporters are hypocrites. The execution of the withdrawal is his to own. This mess is on him.

He actually delayed the withdrawal by 3 months. The troops should have been out by the end of May, per the original agreement. So do tell us more about how following the original Trump plan (full withdrawal by May 31) would have been any different. Heck, do tell us how Trump would have handled things differently. Do you really think the original plan was going to work, if there ever was one? Do you think that withdrawing by May would have resulted in the Afghans taking full control?

I'm almost certain that if Biden has said "no, sorry, we gotta stay because if we don't, the central government collapses", your comment would be not on how this is a mess, but rather complaining that:
1. A broken campaign promise (you know...because all presidents are honest, especially our last one)
2. More time in the longest war ever, which means more money spent
3. Another undoing of a Trump plan.

Sorry. Right, it's Trump's fault. Gotcha. Biden is a helpless bystander. He reversed every Trump policy everywhere, but this one slipped through the cracks and he decided to stay the course. Even the rolleyes emoticon is too weak for that logic.

The sad thing with you people is that whenever someone develops a semi complex argument ( lets face it, it's not even remotely complex), you try to resume it to "black or white", " with or against us" that are the death of complex thinking.

How hard is it to understand that the fact that Biden is doing a bad job getting out of this doesn't stop the fact that Trump did negociate a shitty and amoral retreat, and also that Obama didn't leave when he should (when Ben Laden was dealt with), and that George W did a terrible job opening War fronts everywhere in the middle east, while openly lying to the face of the whole World ?
And that none of those statements exempt the previous or the next president from their own responsibilities?

Because Biden is the last to hold the shitty stick, and does a bad job dealing with it doesn't stop the fact that all the presidents since GWB have added a layer of crap on it...
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20199
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:30 pm

Bricktop wrote:
He inherited a s#itshow for sure, but the way he has dealt with it has been pathetic and that's not a partisan line of thought. If Trump, either Bush, Reagan or Nixon had done it, I would have called it pathetic. Ike simply wouldn't have done it. Just wouldn't have.


You cannot divorce the last 20 years from what's happened in Afghanistan during the last 20 days. Today is the culmination of the last 20 years. There's no way it was ever going to end any differently, regardless of who was president of America. It's Afghanistan FFS, look at its history.

The Afghan army was a sick joke. Senior British soldiers have been reported on TV news saying how hard it is to trust the Afghans while training them, because you never know when the gun you've just put in their hand will be turned on you.

Please tell us your perfect Afghanistan endgame. You have one, right?
 
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ER757
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:28 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.

Well, they wanted in because passions were high after 9/11 and the Taliban did not cooperate in handing over OBL or expelling Al Qaeda. But after a while, it was clear that there was no end game and it cooled off. The Taliban were driven out of power and a central government was installed, which couldn't even stand on its own. Candidate after candidate promised to bring the war to an end but I guess Iraq gave them pause. But at some point, they had to bite the bullet. As much as I'd like to help Afghanistan rebuild, unless it was a multinational effort, we should just head out. If they weren't ready then, they were never gonna be ready. Enough resources have been invested over there; time to use that money at home.

Could not agree more - the US did what they could after 9-11, routed the Taliban and helped install a government and as you say, they were ineffectual. Are we supposed to stay there forever? Without multinational support we may as well cut our losses and get out. It's sad for those poor civilians, especially women and girls, but there's bad stuff happening to them in many other countries too. We alone cannot save the world from cruelty and backward thinking.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:42 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Russians held out in Leningrad.
German troops held Dunkirk until the end of the war
German Volkstrum and remnants of broken divisions made the Red Army pay for every inch of Germany
French Legionnaires held out for weeks in Dien Bien Phu
Japanese troops made the US pay dearly for Iwo and Okinawa

And the video's from the airport show military age men trying to get on the planes.


The men from your examples, had supportive governments and believed that if they were victorious they would return home to a hero's welcome.

The men from the airport stand to be executed (or worse...and there are things worse than being executed, like being tortured and then executed) if they don't get out.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12702
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:16 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.

Well, they wanted in because passions were high after 9/11 and the Taliban did not cooperate in handing over OBL or expelling Al Qaeda. But after a while, it was clear that there was no end game and it cooled off. The Taliban were driven out of power and a central government was installed, which couldn't even stand on its own. Candidate after candidate promised to bring the war to an end but I guess Iraq gave them pause. But at some point, they had to bite the bullet. As much as I'd like to help Afghanistan rebuild, unless it was a multinational effort, we should just head out. If they weren't ready then, they were never gonna be ready. Enough resources have been invested over there; time to use that money at home.


Afghanistan was a multi-national effort. The problem here (and in Iraq among others) is that defeating the enemy isn't all that hard, it is nation-building that is hard. The US didn't have a plan when they got into Afghanistan after the Taliban was defeated. And now to hear Biden say: "We weren't there to build a nation, but to protect US soil" is very harsh. The US has asked many nations to join them - even triggered article five of the NATO manifest for the first time. The Dutch have lost around 20 soldiers in Afghanistan, which is huge for a small nation as ours. And it seems to be all for nothing.

We will see what will happen in the coming days and weeks and months. It isn't unthinkable that a new "ISIS" like regime will be in place and we will see all the acts against human rights once again. What will the world do then? Send in troops yet again, as we have seen in Iraq? No matter what, the Afghan people are once again the ones paying the price, and unfortunately, I think many will pay the ultimate price.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:04 pm

avier wrote:
The whole world knows who's the current president of US. So I'm not sure why some dragging the former president(s) in here. This whole blame game doesn't reflect well on the current administration tbh. Especially when the current sitting president said he won't be like his predecessor; i.e keep blaming former presidents for current issues.

Aaron747 wrote:
What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.

But partisan statements on a complex issue to discredit Trump are absolutely fine it seems. Like this below:

Reinhardt wrote:
Taking this into account and everything else that's happened, it's rather clear to me the blame for Afghanistan falling to the Taliban in the last year lies firmly at the feet of Trump and Pompeo.


No partisan statements are needed - Trump himself has taken credit repeatedly:

https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/stat ... 18918?s=21
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:07 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Glad to be out of Afghanistan, no matter how messy. I say, let China figure it out.

We'll arm the Mujahideen again when the Chinese roll their tanks in.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
To be fair the American public overwhelmingly wanted in to Afghanistan, and today overwhelmingly wanted out of Afghanistan.

Well, they wanted in because passions were high after 9/11 and the Taliban did not cooperate in handing over OBL or expelling Al Qaeda. But after a while, it was clear that there was no end game and it cooled off. The Taliban were driven out of power and a central government was installed, which couldn't even stand on its own. Candidate after candidate promised to bring the war to an end but I guess Iraq gave them pause. But at some point, they had to bite the bullet. As much as I'd like to help Afghanistan rebuild, unless it was a multinational effort, we should just head out. If they weren't ready then, they were never gonna be ready. Enough resources have been invested over there; time to use that money at home.


Afghanistan was a multi-national effort. The problem here (and in Iraq among others) is that defeating the enemy isn't all that hard, it is nation-building that is hard. The US didn't have a plan when they got into Afghanistan after the Taliban was defeated. And now to hear Biden say: "We weren't there to build a nation, but to protect US soil" is very harsh. The US has asked many nations to join them - even triggered article five of the NATO manifest for the first time. The Dutch have lost around 20 soldiers in Afghanistan, which is huge for a small nation as ours. And it seems to be all for nothing.

We will see what will happen in the coming days and weeks and months. It isn't unthinkable that a new "ISIS" like regime will be in place and we will see all the acts against human rights once again. What will the world do then? Send in troops yet again, as we have seen in Iraq? No matter what, the Afghan people are once again the ones paying the price, and unfortunately, I think many will pay the ultimate price.


Biden’s statement is harsh but accurate in terms of what the domestic political audience wanted. Both left and right in the US did not have an appetite for actual nation-building. They wanted action in AFG for self-defense only.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:34 pm

DocLightning wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Russians held out in Leningrad.
German troops held Dunkirk until the end of the war
German Volkstrum and remnants of broken divisions made the Red Army pay for every inch of Germany
French Legionnaires held out for weeks in Dien Bien Phu
Japanese troops made the US pay dearly for Iwo and Okinawa

And the video's from the airport show military age men trying to get on the planes.


The men from your examples, had supportive governments and believed that if they were victorious they would return home to a hero's welcome.

The men from the airport stand to be executed (or worse...and there are things worse than being executed, like being tortured and then executed) if they don't get out.



History says otherwise - few German soldiers in 1945 thought they had any chance at winning. Read the history of the Battle for Seelow Heights. The Germans fought to the last man. Nor did the Japanese. Both against overwhelming enemy numbers with no armor, and no air cover. What they did fear was what the Russians and Americans would do to their women and children. Most of the French paratroopers in Viet Nam at Dien Bien Phu weren't even French , many were ex-Wehrmacht. They fought for their brothers-in-arms completely surrounded and cut-off from re-supply.

Do you go out with a gun in your hand or as a sheep led to slaughter?
 
luckyone
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:40 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Well, they wanted in because passions were high after 9/11 and the Taliban did not cooperate in handing over OBL or expelling Al Qaeda. But after a while, it was clear that there was no end game and it cooled off. The Taliban were driven out of power and a central government was installed, which couldn't even stand on its own. Candidate after candidate promised to bring the war to an end but I guess Iraq gave them pause. But at some point, they had to bite the bullet. As much as I'd like to help Afghanistan rebuild, unless it was a multinational effort, we should just head out. If they weren't ready then, they were never gonna be ready. Enough resources have been invested over there; time to use that money at home.


Afghanistan was a multi-national effort. The problem here (and in Iraq among others) is that defeating the enemy isn't all that hard, it is nation-building that is hard. The US didn't have a plan when they got into Afghanistan after the Taliban was defeated. And now to hear Biden say: "We weren't there to build a nation, but to protect US soil" is very harsh. The US has asked many nations to join them - even triggered article five of the NATO manifest for the first time. The Dutch have lost around 20 soldiers in Afghanistan, which is huge for a small nation as ours. And it seems to be all for nothing.

We will see what will happen in the coming days and weeks and months. It isn't unthinkable that a new "ISIS" like regime will be in place and we will see all the acts against human rights once again. What will the world do then? Send in troops yet again, as we have seen in Iraq? No matter what, the Afghan people are once again the ones paying the price, and unfortunately, I think many will pay the ultimate price.


Biden’s statement is harsh but accurate in terms of what the domestic political audience wanted. Both left and right in the US did not have an appetite for actual nation-building. They wanted action in AFG for self-defense only.

We were braying for blood post 9-11. Period.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16557
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:51 pm

luckyone wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Afghanistan was a multi-national effort. The problem here (and in Iraq among others) is that defeating the enemy isn't all that hard, it is nation-building that is hard. The US didn't have a plan when they got into Afghanistan after the Taliban was defeated. And now to hear Biden say: "We weren't there to build a nation, but to protect US soil" is very harsh. The US has asked many nations to join them - even triggered article five of the NATO manifest for the first time. The Dutch have lost around 20 soldiers in Afghanistan, which is huge for a small nation as ours. And it seems to be all for nothing.

We will see what will happen in the coming days and weeks and months. It isn't unthinkable that a new "ISIS" like regime will be in place and we will see all the acts against human rights once again. What will the world do then? Send in troops yet again, as we have seen in Iraq? No matter what, the Afghan people are once again the ones paying the price, and unfortunately, I think many will pay the ultimate price.


Biden’s statement is harsh but accurate in terms of what the domestic political audience wanted. Both left and right in the US did not have an appetite for actual nation-building. They wanted action in AFG for self-defense only.

We were braying for blood post 9-11. Period.


Yep, and that became ‘we will fight over there so we don’t have to fight them here’
 
johns624
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:57 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Russians held out in Leningrad.
German troops held Dunkirk until the end of the war
German Volkstrum and remnants of broken divisions made the Red Army pay for every inch of Germany
French Legionnaires held out for weeks in Dien Bien Phu
Japanese troops made the US pay dearly for Iwo and Okinawa

And the video's from the airport show military age men trying to get on the planes.


The men from your examples, had supportive governments and believed that if they were victorious they would return home to a hero's welcome.

The men from the airport stand to be executed (or worse...and there are things worse than being executed, like being tortured and then executed) if they don't get out.



History says otherwise - few German soldiers in 1945 thought they had any chance at winning. Read the history of the Battle for Seelow Heights. The Germans fought to the last man. Nor did the Japanese. Both against overwhelming enemy numbers with no armor, and no air cover. What they did fear was what the Russians and Americans would do to their women and children. Most of the French paratroopers in Viet Nam at Dien Bien Phu weren't even French , many were ex-Wehrmacht. They fought for their brothers-in-arms completely surrounded and cut-off from re-supply.

Do you go out with a gun in your hand or as a sheep led to slaughter?
Yes! Somebody that knows their history. I bet 99+% of those here have never heard of the Seelow Heights.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:46 pm

I have! ut, I didn’t know about the FFL soldiers at Dien Bien Phu. Mark Felton on You Tube.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8717
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Afghanistan was a multi-national effort.

The keyword there is WAS. It began as a NATO led international coalition (even non-NATO nations joined in some manner), but after facing threats in their own territory and with no end goal in sight, nations slowly withdrew.

A true international effort would have been UN-led all the way. Maybe using NATO to drive out the Taliban in the initial stages, but handing over nation building to the UN. Instead, the UN authorized the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) which was handed over to NATO in 2003. So this essentially became a NATO-led task (with the US taking the main role), and eventually some NATO members began withdrawing altogether.
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