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MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 pm

wingman wrote:
Well said. Bush will own this tragedy on the way in but Trump will own the exit deal. It fits the mold perfectly, just like every other deal this ass clown ever executed. This one is surely his biggest bankruptcy yet. We went to war against Afghanistan and Iraq because the Saudis killed 3000 Americans on 9-11 and then found succor in Pakistan. You can unravel this shit straight back to Cheney and Rumsfeld. They were the original architects of the costliest military debacles in our history. Then the GOP put a draft dodger in charge of the exit deal. It’s repugnant to have to share a flag with these desperate tools.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: To have just the 1% of the gall of all of the W admin officials clucking around on TV doing hot takes right now on the Afghanistan withdrawal would be superpower level shamelessness

W is an idiot warmonger who makes Trump look like a common schoolyard sandbox bully. His reputation should have never been rehabilitated.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2718
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:30 pm

Here is a video testimony from June 23 of Congressman Lamborn asking Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley about their plans given the Taliban's acceleration, closing Baghram Air Base and about women. The potential for this kind of defeat was fully considered. They claimed to have a plan that they kept updating. 1:06:50


https://youtu.be/9bpS8Zcic-U?t=4016
 
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seb146
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:15 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Well said. Bush will own this tragedy on the way in but Trump will own the exit deal. It fits the mold perfectly, just like every other deal this ass clown ever executed. This one is surely his biggest bankruptcy yet. We went to war against Afghanistan and Iraq because the Saudis killed 3000 Americans on 9-11 and then found succor in Pakistan. You can unravel this shit straight back to Cheney and Rumsfeld. They were the original architects of the costliest military debacles in our history. Then the GOP put a draft dodger in charge of the exit deal. It’s repugnant to have to share a flag with these desperate tools.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: To have just the 1% of the gall of all of the W admin officials clucking around on TV doing hot takes right now on the Afghanistan withdrawal would be superpower level shamelessness

W is an idiot warmonger who makes Trump look like a common schoolyard sandbox bully. His reputation should have never been rehabilitated.


W and MAGA knew exactly what they were doing whey they negotiated these draw downs and the exit. They knew they could convince their base it was not their fault because the actual act did not happen on their watch. With MAGA, if he had been reelected, he would have kept putting it off and putting it off until he could blame anyone else. Typical of the party of personal responsibility.
 
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keesje
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:20 pm

Everybody is fingerpointing after this defeat of us, the West. In Europe I see some admitting misjudgements, Biden is trying to rewrite history, saying rebuilding the nation was never really was a priority.. politics.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Well said. Bush will own this tragedy on the way in but Trump will own the exit deal. It fits the mold perfectly, just like every other deal this ass clown ever executed. This one is surely his biggest bankruptcy yet. We went to war against Afghanistan and Iraq because the Saudis killed 3000 Americans on 9-11 and then found succor in Pakistan. You can unravel this shit straight back to Cheney and Rumsfeld. They were the original architects of the costliest military debacles in our history. Then the GOP put a draft dodger in charge of the exit deal. It’s repugnant to have to share a flag with these desperate tools.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: To have just the 1% of the gall of all of the W admin officials clucking around on TV doing hot takes right now on the Afghanistan withdrawal would be superpower level shamelessness

W is an idiot warmonger who makes Trump look like a common schoolyard sandbox bully. His reputation should have never been rehabilitated.


W and MAGA knew exactly what they were doing whey they negotiated these draw downs and the exit. They knew they could convince their base it was not their fault because the actual act did not happen on their watch. With MAGA, if he had been reelected, he would have kept putting it off and putting it off until he could blame anyone else. Typical of the party of personal responsibility.

I'm not so sure...the Trump deal really started the snowball of the Taliban takeover. No matter who was in power we'd either need to get out, or surge, and a surge would have been more politically unacceptable than leaving. That said Trump would just say he wanted a surge all along and his sheep would seal clap and send their kids over to die for another 20 years.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:46 pm

i was anti-Trump but would have applauded his getting out whenever and however.
 
bennett123
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:50 pm

JJJ wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

You took away the air support. You taught them how to fight US style, which requires air support, they didn’t have any air support, game over.


Surely that would have been obvious from the start.

Assuming that a new Taliban govt was not the objective, what was?. A large and permanent western military presence, or for them to be replaced by western contractors?.

AFAIK, there were no plans for the Afghans to operate F16/AH64.

If this was not the plan, then surely you would train them to operate with limited air support. After all, it is not as if the Taliban outnumbered them.


The Afghan AF got super tucanos and armed Cessna's, Russian Mi's and armed Cayuses.

As per state of readiness and training I can't tell. But after knowing soldiers hadn't been paid in 6 months I'm pretty sure it wasn't precisely stellar.


There is a lot of difference between a Super Tucano and an F16.
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:54 pm

Unless its an elected Govt in Afghanistan.... Most democracies will NOT recognize the Taliban regime.
I wont be surprised if China offers to set up investments there
But next target will be the elimination of the Durand line in a few years time.
 
JJJ
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:35 pm

bennett123 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
bennett123 wrote:

Surely that would have been obvious from the start.

Assuming that a new Taliban govt was not the objective, what was?. A large and permanent western military presence, or for them to be replaced by western contractors?.

AFAIK, there were no plans for the Afghans to operate F16/AH64.

If this was not the plan, then surely you would train them to operate with limited air support. After all, it is not as if the Taliban outnumbered them.


The Afghan AF got super tucanos and armed Cessna's, Russian Mi's and armed Cayuses.

As per state of readiness and training I can't tell. But after knowing soldiers hadn't been paid in 6 months I'm pretty sure it wasn't precisely stellar.


There is a lot of difference between a Super Tucano and an F16.


For CAS purposes? Both will drop bombs and rockets as long as there's someone pointing them where. It's a matter of having enough of them ready at the time and place you need them.

It's not like the Taliban were contesting the airspace.
 
bennett123
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:29 pm

I was thinking in terms of vulnerability.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:38 am

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

https://fas.org/man/smedley.htm
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:45 am

HAWK21M wrote:
Unless its an elected Govt in Afghanistan.... Most democracies will NOT recognize the Taliban regime.
I wont be surprised if China offers to set up investments there
But next target will be the elimination of the Durand line in a few years time.


Oh please!

Why should China not invest in Afghanistan? Chinese investments in infrastructure and industry will actually help the Afghan population more than anything all the other powers playing the Afghan games are planning.

India's National Security Advisor, the self proclaimed "Indian James Bond" Ajit Doval has been conducting secret talks with the Taliban leadership in places like Doha and Germany across all of last year. The slavish Indian media has been calling this a MASTERSTROKE for months now! Everything Dear Leader does is just that - a Masterstroke!

Indian officials engaging with Taliban ‘quietly’
Times of India

The aim is clear - to use the Taliban in Afghanistan as a lever to destabilise Pakistan. The recent moves by TTP (Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan) are an indicator on which way they will move. "James Bond" Doval is an old hand when it comes to dealing with Taliban. It was Ajit Doval who negotiated the shameful surrender in Kandahar after the Indian Airlines IC184 hijack.

Taliban and Modi Govt are a match made in heaven - like Italy and Germany in WW2! Both religious extremist parties who use violence against Religious Minorities and women.

This is not about Democracy! It never was!

Afghanistan has been the playground for big power games ever since the British unilaterally drew the Durand Line.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:53 am

US/UK plan? Dont know yet. They might pump in money and arms to Masoud's sons & brothers fighting in the North.
EU plan? Limited engagement with Taliban regime while towing the US line in general.
Indian plan? Use the traditional Durand Line hostilities between Afghanistan and Pakistan to play Pathans against everyone else and direct them against Pakistan.

China - Long term loans and direct investment in infrastructure in Afghanistan. Benefit to China - Eliminate possibility of Taliban playing a role in Xinjiang and further strengthen their Belt & Road Initiative.

Out of these alternatives, which country serves Afghan interests best?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:55 am

Speaking of India's Hindutva Fascist Govt response to Afghanistan...

India will evacuate (only) Hindus and Sikhs from Afghanistan

What about Indian Muslims in Afghanistan?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:09 am

Do you care about a highway if you can't even afford a moped ?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:27 am

Ron Paul speaks:

Kabul Has Fallen - But Don't Blame Biden


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... ame-biden/

The US war on Afghanistan was not lost yesterday in Kabul. It was lost the moment it shifted from a limited mission to apprehend those who planned the attack on 9/11 to an exercise in regime change and nation-building.

The military industrial complex spent 20 years on the gravy train with the Afghanistan war. They built missiles, they built tanks, they built aircraft and helicopters. They hired armies of lobbyists and think tank writers to continue the lie that was making them rich. They wrapped their graft up in the American flag, but they are the opposite of patriots.

The mainstream media has uncritically repeated the propaganda of the military and political leaders about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and all the other pointless US interventions. Many of these outlets are owned by defense industry-connected companies. The corruption is deep.


I must say, I agree with Ron Paul on this.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:01 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Ron Paul speaks:

Kabul Has Fallen - But Don't Blame Biden


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... ame-biden/

The US war on Afghanistan was not lost yesterday in Kabul. It was lost the moment it shifted from a limited mission to apprehend those who planned the attack on 9/11 to an exercise in regime change and nation-building.

The military industrial complex spent 20 years on the gravy train with the Afghanistan war. They built missiles, they built tanks, they built aircraft and helicopters. They hired armies of lobbyists and think tank writers to continue the lie that was making them rich. They wrapped their graft up in the American flag, but they are the opposite of patriots.

The mainstream media has uncritically repeated the propaganda of the military and political leaders about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and all the other pointless US interventions. Many of these outlets are owned by defense industry-connected companies. The corruption is deep.


I must say, I agree with Ron Paul on this.


His statement is not inaccurate but it cannot be called 'corruption'. Corruption is illegal. Companies do/say what their paymasters want, and paymasters do what their BODs want. That is our system - and it's all legal. AFG operations were authorized by a Congressional AUMF - also legal.

As much as those entities are responsible, so is the public. The American people made it known to Congress they wanted blood after 9/11. They gradually lost interest in the details and did not mount a significantly high octane opposition to continued AFG operations. At the end, the public made clear they preferred for it to go away quietly, as impractical as that may be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... lt/619769/

In post-2001 America, it became fashionable to speak of “war weariness,” but citizens who were not in the military or part of a military family or community did not have to endure even minor inconveniences, much less shoulder major burdens such as a draft, a war tax, or resource shortages. The soldiers who served overseas in those first years of major operations soon felt forgotten. “America’s not at war” was a common refrain among the troops. “We’re at war. America’s at the mall.”

And now those same Americans have the full withdrawal from Afghanistan they apparently want: Some 70 percent of the public supports a pullout. Not that they care that intensely about it; as the foreign-policy scholar Stephen Biddle recently observed, the war is practically an afterthought in U.S. politics. “You would need an electron microscope to detect the effect of Afghanistan on any congressional race in the last decade,” Biddle said early this year. “It’s been invisible.”
 
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Aesma
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Ron Paul speaks:

Kabul Has Fallen - But Don't Blame Biden


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... ame-biden/

The US war on Afghanistan was not lost yesterday in Kabul. It was lost the moment it shifted from a limited mission to apprehend those who planned the attack on 9/11 to an exercise in regime change and nation-building.

The military industrial complex spent 20 years on the gravy train with the Afghanistan war. They built missiles, they built tanks, they built aircraft and helicopters. They hired armies of lobbyists and think tank writers to continue the lie that was making them rich. They wrapped their graft up in the American flag, but they are the opposite of patriots.

The mainstream media has uncritically repeated the propaganda of the military and political leaders about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and all the other pointless US interventions. Many of these outlets are owned by defense industry-connected companies. The corruption is deep.


I must say, I agree with Ron Paul on this.


His statement is not inaccurate but it cannot be called 'corruption'. Corruption is illegal. Companies do/say what their paymasters want, and paymasters do what their BODs want. That is our system - and it's all legal. AFG operations were authorized by a Congressional AUMF - also legal.

As much as those entities are responsible, so is the public. The American people made it known to Congress they wanted blood after 9/11. They gradually lost interest in the details and did not mount a significantly high octane opposition to continued AFG operations. At the end, the public made clear they preferred for it to go away quietly, as impractical as that may be.


Legal corruption is of course still corruption. The main factor is companies paying for political campaigns. That's a corruption of democracy. Money has more power than people.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:20 am

Aesma wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Ron Paul speaks:

Kabul Has Fallen - But Don't Blame Biden


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... ame-biden/

The US war on Afghanistan was not lost yesterday in Kabul. It was lost the moment it shifted from a limited mission to apprehend those who planned the attack on 9/11 to an exercise in regime change and nation-building.

The military industrial complex spent 20 years on the gravy train with the Afghanistan war. They built missiles, they built tanks, they built aircraft and helicopters. They hired armies of lobbyists and think tank writers to continue the lie that was making them rich. They wrapped their graft up in the American flag, but they are the opposite of patriots.

The mainstream media has uncritically repeated the propaganda of the military and political leaders about Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and all the other pointless US interventions. Many of these outlets are owned by defense industry-connected companies. The corruption is deep.


I must say, I agree with Ron Paul on this.


His statement is not inaccurate but it cannot be called 'corruption'. Corruption is illegal. Companies do/say what their paymasters want, and paymasters do what their BODs want. That is our system - and it's all legal. AFG operations were authorized by a Congressional AUMF - also legal.

As much as those entities are responsible, so is the public. The American people made it known to Congress they wanted blood after 9/11. They gradually lost interest in the details and did not mount a significantly high octane opposition to continued AFG operations. At the end, the public made clear they preferred for it to go away quietly, as impractical as that may be.


Legal corruption is of course still corruption. The main factor is companies paying for political campaigns. That's a corruption of democracy. Money has more power than people.


That is also legal. According to the US Supreme Court, corporations have the same right to exercise their voice as individuals. It's not the best setup for our political culture, but it's the law of the land.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:32 am

Former SecDef Esper laying blame on both Trump and Biden:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-defen ... 28979.html

"President Trump, by continuing to want to withdraw American forces out of Afghanistan, undermined the agreement - which is why in the fall, when he was calling for a return of US forces by Christmas, I objected," Esper told CNN's Christiane Amanpour...

..In a tweet, Esper said both Trump and Biden could have handled the situation differently to prevent the collapse of the Afghan government and the Taliban takeover. He told Amanpour that Biden "owns the situation" and could have altered the current crisis by "extending the timeline, and taking a more thoughtful approach and not relying on simple assumptions."

"The only way this conflict could have ended better was through a political agreement among Afghans that was conditions-based, patient, and backed up by US and allied militaries. We had this, but both presidents abandoned the process and stuck to an arbitrary timeline," Esper said.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:36 am

Several people have mentioned the amount spent, 2 trillion or 2000 billion, and what it could have paid for in the US.

Forgetting most of the money was in fact spent in the US, I heard about another interesting comparison : with Afghanistan's GDP of 20 billion. So that's 100 years of their GDP.

Let that sink in.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:56 am

Aesma wrote:
Several people have mentioned the amount spent, 2 trillion or 2000 billion, and what it could have paid for in the US.

Forgetting most of the money was in fact spent in the US, I heard about another interesting comparison : with Afghanistan's GDP of 20 billion. So that's 100 years of their GDP.

Let that sink in.


Absolutely. There are roughly 40 million Americans living in poverty. $2 trillion is enough to give all of them a $20K educational or housing credit. There would still be tens of billions left over. Another example is infrastructure.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:00 pm

One unfortunate consequence will be a raging civil war as the various regional family/tribal/ethnic groups fight over 'turf'. There will be open conflicts, as happened for centuries in what is currently Afghanistan and Pakistan. These will be fought with AK-47's and whatever was left behind by USA and allied forces. Sadly too will be the subjugation of Women to a radical interpretation of Islam that puts Men in total control.
 
luckyone
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:07 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One unfortunate consequence will be a raging civil war as the various regional family/tribal/ethnic groups fight over 'turf'. There will be open conflicts, as happened for centuries in what is currently Afghanistan and Pakistan. These will be fought with AK-47's and whatever was left behind by USA and allied forces. Sadly too will be the subjugation of Women to a radical interpretation of Islam that puts Men in total control.

Well considering Afghanistan has been in a state of flux long before the US came into the picture, I'd say if we didn't fix it in twenty years, then we aren't going to fix it regardless of how much we khaked it up.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:34 pm

Aesma wrote:
Do you care about a highway if you can't even afford a moped ?


A highway project can bring 1000's of paying jobs. That is 1000's of people out of the unemployed list. 1000's of people not available for recruitment by lynch mobs. There is also the indirect effect of seeding the economy.

There is a direct link between govt/private investment, jobs and terrorism.
 
slider
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:34 pm

https://reason.com/2021/08/17/dont-excu ... -refugees/

Some very good points in here that have been glossed over in other outlets. First, that the 18,000 special immigrant visas for Afghanis were hung up in red tape. Trump's original plan included extricating these refugees safely. And leaving billions in military equipment and ARMED weapons of war is criminal incompetence.
 
slider
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:53 pm

The roundups are happening: https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/1 ... 46954?s=20

And evidently only 800 people were evacuated from Afghanistan, of which only 165 were Americans. What a feeble, pathetic response.

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status ... 56259?s=20
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:56 pm

slider wrote:
First, that the 18,000 special immigrant visas for Afghanis were hung up in red tape


Read some article earlier also (Have to find it) that at the pace that the US govt was handling the visa, it'll be 2023 before everything was processed anyway.

Yep...2023. Taliban may have advanced quicker than expected, but anybody that thought the current Afghan govt would last beyond 2021 is just dreaming.

slider wrote:
And leaving billions in military equipment and ARMED weapons of war is criminal incompetence.


Taliban loves those brand new Humvees, though.

Aesma wrote:
Do you care about a highway if you can't even afford a moped ?


The highway building on paper actually help the Afghan govt expanding their influence beyond Kabul. Alas, the money are certainly not used to build highway but is pocketed between some American contractor and some Afghan govt officials.
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:10 pm

I think that the problem with waging war in Afghanistan, is that it is just the battlefield - if you think back to the Cold War, invading Afghanistan would have done nothing to stop the USSR, and similarly intervention in Afghanistan would do nothing to solve the problems which are more do do with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (and now Iran).

Considering that Taliban have the backing of all its neighbours except India (Pakistan, Iran, China, the Soviet states, etc...), it might be the best long term solution to stability in Afghanistan.

My main concern is that the geopolitical fallout of this is going to be huge, whether it is the migration crisis, or the increase in terror activity in tandem with Pakistan.
 
TokyoImperialPa
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Several people have mentioned the amount spent, 2 trillion or 2000 billion, and what it could have paid for in the US.

Forgetting most of the money was in fact spent in the US, I heard about another interesting comparison : with Afghanistan's GDP of 20 billion. So that's 100 years of their GDP.

Let that sink in.


Absolutely. There are roughly 40 million Americans living in poverty. $2 trillion is enough to give all of them a $20K educational or housing credit. There would still be tens of billions left over. Another example is infrastructure.


$2 trillion of investment into the economy probably helped a lot of jobs. Would you say that NASA funding should be diverted to the homeless because spending in on pointless missions to Mars was stupid? That money has to have gone through some human hands at some point remember.
 
johns624
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:24 pm

slider wrote:
The roundups are happening: https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/1 ... 46954?s=20

And evidently only 800 people were evacuated from Afghanistan, of which only 165 were Americans. What a feeble, pathetic response.

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status ... 56259?s=20
That was one day.
 
slider
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:38 pm

johns624 wrote:
slider wrote:
The roundups are happening: https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/1 ... 46954?s=20

And evidently only 800 people were evacuated from Afghanistan, of which only 165 were Americans. What a feeble, pathetic response.

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status ... 56259?s=20
That was one day.


Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:49 pm

slider wrote:
johns624 wrote:
slider wrote:
The roundups are happening: https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/1 ... 46954?s=20

And evidently only 800 people were evacuated from Afghanistan, of which only 165 were Americans. What a feeble, pathetic response.

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status ... 56259?s=20
That was one day.


Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


Bagram was closed as part of the pullout plan. No other country cared. And at the time, it made sense that the Afghan government was going to be able to take over. The US no longer had the forces on the ground anymore to make a difference since prior to Biden taking office.

The MIC is going to be in a fuss because it now appears that Trump negotiated an exit that leaves them out of a deal in the future for sales. Afghanistan was mismanaged and a bungle for 20 years. We are just now seeing the end result. You can blame Biden all you want, but the seeds of this stretch out for over 20 years .
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20195
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:55 pm

slider wrote:
Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


Yep, the whole Afghanistan mess is all Biden's fault - the whole 20 years of it.

Maybe he was playing golf? Oh wait, wrong president.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16494
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:22 pm

slider wrote:
johns624 wrote:
slider wrote:
The roundups are happening: https://twitter.com/Roh_Yakobi/status/1 ... 46954?s=20

And evidently only 800 people were evacuated from Afghanistan, of which only 165 were Americans. What a feeble, pathetic response.

https://twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status ... 56259?s=20
That was one day.


Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


If you think that's bad, Australia has COVID caps on any incoming arrivals so an A330 MRTT left KBL yesterday with only 26 evacuees on board.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/first-austr ... e-on-board
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16494
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:30 pm

slider wrote:
https://reason.com/2021/08/17/dont-excuse-biden-for-his-botched-afghanistan-withdrawal-refugees/

Some very good points in here that have been glossed over in other outlets. First, that the 18,000 special immigrant visas for Afghanis were hung up in red tape. Trump's original plan included extricating these refugees safely. And leaving billions in military equipment and ARMED weapons of war is criminal incompetence.


Some pretty strong partisan blinders on display here. Need to be reminded that the Trump adviser in charge of visa policy was Stephen Miller?

It's pretty obvious from his comments and retweets that if we were in Trump 2nd term there would be no fast-tracking of SIVs for Afghans. He makes plain the Afghan government's records are too incomplete and the State Dept too untrustworthy to vet Afghans, helpers or not. C'mon now.

https://twitter.com/PhilipWegmann/statu ... 24934?s=20
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:38 pm

TokyoImperialPa wrote:
$2 trillion of investment into the economy probably helped a lot of jobs. Would you say that NASA funding should be diverted to the homeless because spending in on pointless missions to Mars was stupid? That money has to have gone through some human hands at some point remember


Off topic but remember the "outrage" behind Bezos' space flight? The "black and white" thinking at times is just ridiculous...

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That was one day.


Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


If you think that's bad, Australia has COVID caps on any incoming arrivals so an A330 MRTT left KBL yesterday with only 26 evacuees on board.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/first-austr ... e-on-board


That and Australia are barely taking any refugees. They basically say a cap of 3000 and that's it.

Seriously, just fly anybody out...even reopening Nauru is better than having all these Afghans losing their life!
 
JJJ
Posts: 4118
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:58 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I was thinking in terms of vulnerability.


How many Afghan AF Tucanos have been shot down by the Taliban?

The Taliban were deliberately targeting AAF pilots in assassination attempts to keep them off the air.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 021-07-09/
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14846
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:38 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Do you care about a highway if you can't even afford a moped ?


A highway project can bring 1000's of paying jobs. That is 1000's of people out of the unemployed list. 1000's of people not available for recruitment by lynch mobs. There is also the indirect effect of seeding the economy.

There is a direct link between govt/private investment, jobs and terrorism.


The US/allies provided plenty of such jobs, look at the result.

China on the other hand would send all the manpower necessary.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:52 pm

scbriml wrote:
slider wrote:
Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


Yep, the whole Afghanistan mess is all Biden's fault - the whole 20 years of it.

Maybe he was playing golf? Oh wait, wrong president.


Biden was the VP or President longer than any other single man or woman. He presumptively had the best view as to the particulars of the policies in place, and didn't change the Trump era policy; in fact, he's supported and accelerated that policy.

Further, Biden campaigned on his first hand knowledge of these problems and skill with foreign policy.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:11 pm

The entire situation in Afghanistan - not just over the last week, but the last twenty years - is incredibly sad with everyday Afghans bearing the brunt of the decisions, good and bad. No leader in the western world nations involved, who was implicated in the boots on the ground or decision making, is free from criticism. They told us progress was being made. This includes the current Federal government in Canada and their slow moving action to evacuate those that supported the Canadian contingent during our mission there.

Though, I must say, and others on other online channels have noted this -

1) It is interesting (if not comical, sad and not surprising) the number of arm chair anti-mask and anti-vax public health 'experts' who have suddenly become experts on the geo-political history of Afghanistan for the purposes of criticizing the current President (seemingly blind to the actions of his predecessors, including Mr. Trump).

2) It is interesting (if not sad and not surprising) the number of people who, over the last twenty years, have levelled outright bigoted, Islamophobic and prejudice views towards the people of Afghanistan and their faith - who are now pearl clutching and acting like they give two sh*ts about the people (women and girls!) of Afghanistan and act like they care about the barbarism the Taliban is unleashing against everyday Muslim Afghani's. How convenient... Save us the faux outrage and fake moral indignation.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20195
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:55 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
scbriml wrote:
slider wrote:
Exactly. A feeble, inadequate response. At Biden's direction, Bagram Air Base was closed while abandoning thousands. It's outrageous!

Americans and Allies left behind. Biden didn't call one single other foreign leader. Biden did not make an appearance for SIX days. Biden did not take questions. No emergency cabinet meetings. No calls, no meetings with NATO. Nothing.


Yep, the whole Afghanistan mess is all Biden's fault - the whole 20 years of it.

Maybe he was playing golf? Oh wait, wrong president.


Biden was the VP or President longer than any other single man or woman. He presumptively had the best view as to the particulars of the policies in place, and didn't change the Trump era policy; in fact, he's supported and accelerated that policy.

Further, Biden campaigned on his first hand knowledge of these problems and skill with foreign policy.


And yet Trump boasted just a few days ago how his withdrawal policy couldn't be changed by Biden. A curious person would ask why Trump subsequently deleted those posts.

But yeah, it's all Biden's fault! :rotfl:
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8589
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Yep, the whole Afghanistan mess is all Biden's fault - the whole 20 years of it.

Maybe he was playing golf? Oh wait, wrong president.


Biden was the VP or President longer than any other single man or woman. He presumptively had the best view as to the particulars of the policies in place, and didn't change the Trump era policy; in fact, he's supported and accelerated that policy.

Further, Biden campaigned on his first hand knowledge of these problems and skill with foreign policy.


And yet Trump boasted just a few days ago how his withdrawal policy couldn't be changed by Biden. A curious person would ask why Trump subsequently deleted those posts.

But yeah, it's all Biden's fault! :rotfl:


If Biden and crew are so smart and Trump’s plan so bad (it was); why didn’t Biden change it? Why did he outright lie about the Afghan military’s strength in July? Why did Biden ignore the warnings from his own IC staff.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14846
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:07 pm

He lied because he's a politician.

The plan couldn't be changed, an agreement was signed 18 months ago, fighters released from prison, etc.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:11 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Former SecDef Esper laying blame on both Trump and Biden:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-defen ... 28979.html



Ron Paul

Blame Bush and Obama for the Afghan Disaster

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... -disaster/

It was George W. Bush who refused to negotiate al Qaeda’s extradition. Bush then let Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri escape to Pakistan while he chose instead to focus on regime change in Kabul and later Baghdad. It was Bush who decided on the strategy of building and training up an Afghan National Army to secure the new regime in power and take the fight to its rivals. American officers, with no one to fight, found and made enemies where there were none before."

"They essentially built a government and army of the northern Tajik, Uzbek and Hazara tribes against the plurality population of the country, the Pashtuns. Where Pashtuns did have power in the government, it in no way enhanced the representation of the people. It just meant the people had to deal with the same old corrupt drug dealer, child rapist, murderer warlords, like Pacha Khan Zardari (“PKZ”), President Hamid Karzai’s half-brother Wali Karzai, and Abdul Razik, only now empowered by the corrupt central government in Kabul and US military and intelligence forces. This was never a sustainable project. Even the Great American Fraud, Gen. David Petraeus, admitted that the Taliban’s process for civil and criminal disputes among the people was far preferable to the local population compared to the corrupt court and police systems the Americans had set up to replace them.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20195
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:

Biden was the VP or President longer than any other single man or woman. He presumptively had the best view as to the particulars of the policies in place, and didn't change the Trump era policy; in fact, he's supported and accelerated that policy.

Further, Biden campaigned on his first hand knowledge of these problems and skill with foreign policy.


And yet Trump boasted just a few days ago how his withdrawal policy couldn't be changed by Biden. A curious person would ask why Trump subsequently deleted those posts.

But yeah, it's all Biden's fault! :rotfl:


If Biden and crew are so smart and Trump’s plan so bad (it was); why didn’t Biden change it? Why did he outright lie about the Afghan military’s strength in July? Why did Biden ignore the warnings from his own IC staff.


And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
What’s unconscionable here is partisan statements on a complex issue just to defend/score points for Trump. It’s beyond the pale.
If Trump were still President and this happened exactly as it did under him, you can only imagine the posts. I doubt anyone who didn't join this site yesterday believes you would call them "unconscionable"
You haven't been here that long - I have been calling AFG a complicated and troubled endeavor since the mid-2000s here. You're welcome to look up the posts if you like.

AFG is an issue beyond partisanship. Trump would receive the same amount of defense I have given Biden in this situation: none. The only difference here is the previous SecState enabled the conditions of this exit through his ridiculous negotiations with the Taliban and release of their prisoners.

You went above and beyond proving my point. No difference at all between Trump and Biden here, just Trump's handling was worse. But nothing partisan about your completely objective assessment. :roll:
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16494
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Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:47 pm

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
If Trump were still President and this happened exactly as it did under him, you can only imagine the posts. I doubt anyone who didn't join this site yesterday believes you would call them "unconscionable"
You haven't been here that long - I have been calling AFG a complicated and troubled endeavor since the mid-2000s here. You're welcome to look up the posts if you like.

AFG is an issue beyond partisanship. Trump would receive the same amount of defense I have given Biden in this situation: none. The only difference here is the previous SecState enabled the conditions of this exit through his ridiculous negotiations with the Taliban and release of their prisoners.

You went above and beyond proving my point. No difference at all between Trump and Biden here, just Trump's handling was worse. But nothing partisan about your completely objective assessment. :roll:


Didn’t mention Trump except to put him on par with Biden. I took issue with Pompeo. The focus is obviously on partisan point-scoring and not what has actually transpired :boggled: That is not a serious nor reasonable position from which to discuss AFG.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:10 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
You went above and beyond proving my point. No difference at all between Trump and Biden here, just Trump's handling was worse. But nothing partisan about your completely objective assessment. :roll:


Didn’t mention Trump except to put him on par with Biden. I took issue with Pompeo.
Enough said.
Last edited by afcjets on Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wingman
Posts: 4193
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Taliban rapidly taking over Afghanistan.

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:10 pm

Blame Biden or blame Trump, it perpetuates the echo chamber wars. If regular Afghans had no willpower to stand up for themselves then this was truly a wasted effort. We tried and we got Bin Laden along the way. We should’ve just gotten Bin Laden but thats not what Rummy and Dick left on the platter is it? Those two and Bush Jr. should be at the very top of the blame heap pile. Trump and yet another of his idiotic “best deal ever” crap didn’t help but i don’t think anything could've at that point.

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