wingman wrote:

Blame Biden or blame Trump, it perpetuates the echo chamber wars.

Which of course would be a ok if we were blaming Trump. Thank God this didn't happen under Obama or Kamala, we can at least still blame this on an old rich white man and the media can be at least somewhat critical, even if they're totally complicit.

scbriml wrote:

And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.

Well, Parliament has voiced their feelings about Biden's leadership in no uncertain terms.

With the dire situation in Afghanistan, we should all be thankful that we can sit in our air conditioned homes and argue endlessly about something that none of us have the power to change. Everything said here is ultimately meaningless to the people in Afghanistan, who’re suffering unimaginable horrors and crimes against humanity. Also, I have no doubt that the same mistakes would be made again if another major terrorist attack happened on US soil. We could really use some Stoicism in this country.

scbriml wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

scbriml wrote:

And yet Trump boasted just a few days ago how his withdrawal policy couldn't be changed by Biden. A curious person would ask why Trump subsequently deleted those posts.

But yeah, it's all Biden's fault!

If Biden and crew are so smart and Trump’s plan so bad (it was); why didn’t Biden change it? Why did he outright lie about the Afghan military’s strength in July? Why did Biden ignore the warnings from his own IC staff.

And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.

A jerk, yes; President since Jan 20th, NO. Biden is, frankly, not one red cent better than weasel Trump.

CitizenJustin wrote:

With the dire situation in Afghanistan, we should all be thankful that we can sit in our air conditioned homes and argue endlessly about something that none of us have the power to change. Everything said here is ultimately meaningless to the people in Afghanistan, who’re suffering unimaginable horrors and crimes against humanity. Also, I have no doubt that the same mistakes would be made again if another major terrorist attack happened on US soil. We could really use some Stoicism in this country.

You decry the horrors of the Taliban takeover, an honorable position. But, what would you do to stop it? It’s the stupid “Free Tibet” bumper stickers, put you actions where your mouth is. For twenty years, we tried, in blood and treasure, to make Afghanistan a better place. Six months ago, these horrors were thought past. Now, women are being whipped on the streets reports today’s WSJ. The USG has stated they can do nothing to ensure the safety of our citizens trying to get home. NOTHING, despite the strongest, most expensive military in the world.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

scbriml wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If Biden and crew are so smart and Trump’s plan so bad (it was); why didn’t Biden change it? Why did he outright lie about the Afghan military’s strength in July? Why did Biden ignore the warnings from his own IC staff.

And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.

A jerk, yes; President since Jan 20th, NO. Biden is, frankly, not one red cent better than weasel Trump.

Trump killed Soleimani and led a successful vaccine development effort.

So far, we've got Elphinstone, take two.

The Taliban have given more pressers than Bidens team, and reports are Biden is returning to Delaware, and the VEEP headed to Vietnam.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

With the dire situation in Afghanistan, we should all be thankful that we can sit in our air conditioned homes and argue endlessly about something that none of us have the power to change. Everything said here is ultimately meaningless to the people in Afghanistan, who’re suffering unimaginable horrors and crimes against humanity. Also, I have no doubt that the same mistakes would be made again if another major terrorist attack happened on US soil. We could really use some Stoicism in this country.

You decry the horrors of the Taliban takeover, an honorable position. But, what would you do to stop it? It’s the stupid “Free Tibet” bumper stickers, put you actions where your mouth is. For twenty years, we tried, in blood and treasure, to make Afghanistan a better place. Six months ago, these horrors were thought past. Now, women are being whipped on the streets reports today’s WSJ. The USG has stated they can do nothing to ensure the safety of our citizens trying to get home. NOTHING, despite the strongest, most expensive military in the world.

I don’t disagree with you here. However, I’m at a loss. This is bigger than me or anyone here.

And I would never put a tacky bumper sticker on my car! How dare you!

My last comment on this. For all that is being said it is kinda interesting, my job is majority conservatives. I would say close to 80-90%, and yet!! Not one comment about Afganistán in the past week. I always have to bring them down to earth a bit, and there had not been one argument about the withdrawal. This tells me that they know it’s not a good argument for them to try to blame Biden when so much of the crap that happened was under Republican presidents, and that they were ready for the war to end a long time ago.

These videos produced by Amit Sengupta are from an Indian perspective. That said, I found many of the points he made to be valid. Particularly how Pakistan and their Army and ISI played the US, and they played the Afghan Taliban fighters as well.

He speaks rapidly, so I watched them at .75 speed.

https://youtu.be/ngW5YDwSkss

https://youtu.be/bZ1jmf_oqS0

FlapOperator wrote:

scbriml wrote:

And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.

Well, Parliament has voiced their feelings about Biden's leadership in no uncertain terms.

Yes, and they also slammed Johnson and Raab for their totally ineffective handling of the situation. The UK should be ashamed of their role in Afghanistan for the last 20 years, all thanks to lap dog Blair's slavish sucking up to Bush. Why were we even in Afghanistan?

This is in no way criticism of the troops on the ground from all nations, who have served with distinction (aside from a very small minority). They have paid the price with limbs and lives for the follies of their political masters. It was a war that could never be won even if we were there for another 20 years.

Where the evacuation is concerned, seems like the Taliban aren't getting involved and are sitting back and watching the chaos unfold. A non-muslim Englishman's perspective from Kabul:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09sjqy0

Taliban bringing security to the rest of the city (and country). Goes against the narrative somewhat.

CitizenJustin wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

With the dire situation in Afghanistan, we should all be thankful that we can sit in our air conditioned homes and argue endlessly about something that none of us have the power to change. Everything said here is ultimately meaningless to the people in Afghanistan, who’re suffering unimaginable horrors and crimes against humanity. Also, I have no doubt that the same mistakes would be made again if another major terrorist attack happened on US soil. We could really use some Stoicism in this country.

You decry the horrors of the Taliban takeover, an honorable position. But, what would you do to stop it? It’s the stupid “Free Tibet” bumper stickers, put you actions where your mouth is. For twenty years, we tried, in blood and treasure, to make Afghanistan a better place. Six months ago, these horrors were thought past. Now, women are being whipped on the streets reports today’s WSJ. The USG has stated they can do nothing to ensure the safety of our citizens trying to get home. NOTHING, despite the strongest, most expensive military in the world.

I don’t disagree with you here. However, I’m at a loss. This is bigger than me or anyone here.

And I would never put a tacky bumper sticker on my car! How dare you!

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

Mark Steyn has a great send up of the whole sordid mess.

https://www.steynonline.com/11605/dead- ... er-walking

Aaron747 wrote:

Not so sure about that.

https://twitter.com/IntelCrab/status/14 ... 73607?s=20

Judging by the humvees and uniforms around, most likely prior to the Taliban entering the city.

I'll take the word of a former Royal Marine living there with his pregnant wife versus stooges of the former regime.

bpatus297 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

You decry the horrors of the Taliban takeover, an honorable position. But, what would you do to stop it? It’s the stupid “Free Tibet” bumper stickers, put you actions where your mouth is. For twenty years, we tried, in blood and treasure, to make Afghanistan a better place. Six months ago, these horrors were thought past. Now, women are being whipped on the streets reports today’s WSJ. The USG has stated they can do nothing to ensure the safety of our citizens trying to get home. NOTHING, despite the strongest, most expensive military in the world.

I don’t disagree with you here. However, I’m at a loss. This is bigger than me or anyone here.

And I would never put a tacky bumper sticker on my car! How dare you!

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

I don’t disagree with you here. However, I’m at a loss. This is bigger than me or anyone here.

And I would never put a tacky bumper sticker on my car! How dare you!

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

There will be investigations. Especially into the peace negotiations that brokered the drawdown. The deals the US signed were broken by the Taliban.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/18/us-forc ... -says.html

S. is relying on an agreement with the Taliban to guarantee the safe passage of Americans. Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman said earlier Wednesday that “it appears that the Taliban’s commitment for safe passage for Americans has been solid,” while noting she doesn’t know “every case.”

Austin vowed that the U.S. is “going to evacuate everybody that we can physically and possibly evacuate and we’ll conduct this process for as long as we possibly can.” The Pentagon chief said the U.S. is coordinating with the Taliban to create passageways for people to get to the airfield.

U.S. Army Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters the airport is currently secure with nearly 5,000 U.S. troops on the ground and the Taliban “are not interfering with our operations.” However, the situation “is still volatile and can change quickly,” Milley said.

There will be further investigations into what intelligence resources missed in the last 3 months leading into this resurgence that could have given pause.


On the flip side. Should we even be in Afghanistan anymore? It has proven to be expensive, and has not brokered any situation better than was was present leading into 9/11

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

I don’t disagree with you here. However, I’m at a loss. This is bigger than me or anyone here.

And I would never put a tacky bumper sticker on my car! How dare you!

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

If Biden has to resign over this, then every president ever should've resigned. Looking at this objectively, this is just a minor thing. It doesn't affect our economy or security. No laws were broken. Yes, some mistakes were made.

johns624 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

If Biden has to resign over this, then every president ever should've resigned. Looking at this objectively, this is just a minor thing. It doesn't affect our economy or security. No laws were broken. Yes, some mistakes were made.

Minor thing? We just had in the course of a week: Bay of Pigs, Saigon and now possibly the Teheran hostage crisis. And yet Biden goes on TV contradicts himself, or just plainly avoids talking about it whilst going on vacation and getting back.

Right now, 25th amendment is the best course, even as I don't like VP Harris, we need a sane and thinking person who can at the very least make decisions. We don't know who is at the helm, but for certain its not Biden. This is not a minor crisis, this is the worst foreign policy crisis I think since the invasion of Iraq. And the worst debacle since Carter's handling of Tehran.

It hasn't ended, and we need someone who at least is able to make decisions. Biden is not here with us. For the sake of this country I am willing to accept Kamala Harris as commander in Chief. And I am totally on the other side of her views.

The obvious answer to why Biden rarely appears on camera or takes questions is because every time he does it, he inflicts more damage upon himself and his agenda. The president whose empathy is endlessly touted now sounds cold and dismissive when asked about Afghans’ desperately crowding into American planes or falling to their deaths. All of the available evidence indicates that the president ignored the warnings of his foreign-policy team, withdrew the armed forces before evacuating the civilians, gave up Bagram Air Base, and now is in a large-scale foreign crisis that is mostly the result of his own choices. There is no good defense to be made, so when cornered, the president invoked his late son’s military service in the Stephanopoulos interview::

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morn ... president/

AirWorthy99 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

If Biden has to resign over this, then every president ever should've resigned. Looking at this objectively, this is just a minor thing. It doesn't affect our economy or security. No laws were broken. Yes, some mistakes were made.

Minor thing? We just had in the course of a week: Bay of Pigs, Saigon and now possibly the Teheran hostage crisis. And yet Biden goes on TV contradicts himself, or just plainly avoids talking about it whilst going on vacation and getting back.

Right now, 25th amendment is the best course, even as I don't like VP Harris, we need a sane and thinking person who can at the very least make decisions. We don't know who is at the helm, but for certain its not Biden. This is not a minor crisis, this is the worst foreign policy crisis I think since the invasion of Iraq. And the worst debacle since Carter's handling of Tehran.

It hasn't ended, and we need someone who at least is able to make decisions. Biden is not here with us. For the sake of this country I am willing to accept Kamala Harris as commander in Chief. And I am totally on the other side of her views.

The obvious answer to why Biden rarely appears on camera or takes questions is because every time he does it, he inflicts more damage upon himself and his agenda. The president whose empathy is endlessly touted now sounds cold and dismissive when asked about Afghans’ desperately crowding into American planes or falling to their deaths. All of the available evidence indicates that the president ignored the warnings of his foreign-policy team, withdrew the armed forces before evacuating the civilians, gave up Bagram Air Base, and now is in a large-scale foreign crisis that is mostly the result of his own choices. There is no good defense to be made, so when cornered, the president invoked his late son’s military service in the Stephanopoulos interview::

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morn ... president/

Good laugh bro. Anybody with a brain knew this was the outcome of an Afghanistan involvement -- who really cares what the time frame is. Would you care less if your testicles were lopped off in bits as opposed to all at once? End result is the same...

Let's play pretend here for a minute and say Trump was still in office...dollars for donuts you wouldn't be repeating this drivel about the 25th Amendment. Let's play more pretend and say Trump is re-elected in 2024, and Afghanistan only then went to pot six months into his second term. Do you really think he would own any of it? If you do...share your stash.

luckyone wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

If Biden has to resign over this, then every president ever should've resigned. Looking at this objectively, this is just a minor thing. It doesn't affect our economy or security. No laws were broken. Yes, some mistakes were made.

Minor thing? We just had in the course of a week: Bay of Pigs, Saigon and now possibly the Teheran hostage crisis. And yet Biden goes on TV contradicts himself, or just plainly avoids talking about it whilst going on vacation and getting back.

Right now, 25th amendment is the best course, even as I don't like VP Harris, we need a sane and thinking person who can at the very least make decisions. We don't know who is at the helm, but for certain its not Biden. This is not a minor crisis, this is the worst foreign policy crisis I think since the invasion of Iraq. And the worst debacle since Carter's handling of Tehran.

It hasn't ended, and we need someone who at least is able to make decisions. Biden is not here with us. For the sake of this country I am willing to accept Kamala Harris as commander in Chief. And I am totally on the other side of her views.

The obvious answer to why Biden rarely appears on camera or takes questions is because every time he does it, he inflicts more damage upon himself and his agenda. The president whose empathy is endlessly touted now sounds cold and dismissive when asked about Afghans’ desperately crowding into American planes or falling to their deaths. All of the available evidence indicates that the president ignored the warnings of his foreign-policy team, withdrew the armed forces before evacuating the civilians, gave up Bagram Air Base, and now is in a large-scale foreign crisis that is mostly the result of his own choices. There is no good defense to be made, so when cornered, the president invoked his late son’s military service in the Stephanopoulos interview::

https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morn ... president/

Good laugh bro. Anybody with a brain knew this was the outcome of an Afghanistan involvement -- who really cares what the time frame is. Would you care less if your testicles were lopped off in bits as opposed to all at once? End result is the same...

Let's play pretend here for a minute and say Trump was still in office...dollars for donuts you wouldn't be repeating this drivel about the 25th Amendment. Let's play more pretend and say Trump is re-elected in 2024, and Afghanistan only then went to pot six months into his second term. Do you really think he would own any of it? If you do...share your stash.

Is this where you say, in your best Hilary voice, “what difference does it make?” to the thousands of US citizens and allies who’ve been told to make their own way to the airport?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

luckyone wrote:

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Minor thing? We just had in the course of a week: Bay of Pigs, Saigon and now possibly the Teheran hostage crisis. And yet Biden goes on TV contradicts himself, or just plainly avoids talking about it whilst going on vacation and getting back.

Right now, 25th amendment is the best course, even as I don't like VP Harris, we need a sane and thinking person who can at the very least make decisions. We don't know who is at the helm, but for certain its not Biden. This is not a minor crisis, this is the worst foreign policy crisis I think since the invasion of Iraq. And the worst debacle since Carter's handling of Tehran.

It hasn't ended, and we need someone who at least is able to make decisions. Biden is not here with us. For the sake of this country I am willing to accept Kamala Harris as commander in Chief. And I am totally on the other side of her views.



https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morn ... president/

Good laugh bro. Anybody with a brain knew this was the outcome of an Afghanistan involvement -- who really cares what the time frame is. Would you care less if your testicles were lopped off in bits as opposed to all at once? End result is the same...

Let's play pretend here for a minute and say Trump was still in office...dollars for donuts you wouldn't be repeating this drivel about the 25th Amendment. Let's play more pretend and say Trump is re-elected in 2024, and Afghanistan only then went to pot six months into his second term. Do you really think he would own any of it? If you do...share your stash.

Is this where you say, in your best Hilary voice, “what difference does it make?” to the thousands of US citizens and allies who’ve been told to make their own way to the airport?

Frame it however you like. End result is still the same...

luckyone wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Good laugh bro. Anybody with a brain knew this was the outcome of an Afghanistan involvement -- who really cares what the time frame is. Would you care less if your testicles were lopped off in bits as opposed to all at once? End result is the same...

Let's play pretend here for a minute and say Trump was still in office...dollars for donuts you wouldn't be repeating this drivel about the 25th Amendment. Let's play more pretend and say Trump is re-elected in 2024, and Afghanistan only then went to pot six months into his second term. Do you really think he would own any of it? If you do...share your stash.

Is this where you say, in your best Hilary voice, “what difference does it make?” to the thousands of US citizens and allies who’ve been told to make their own way to the airport?

Frame it however you like. End result is still the same...

That's the problem. This hasn't ended. There are still several thousands of Americans trapped behind Taliban lines. At the mercy of one the most ruthless Terrorist organizations in the world.

As for your question, I would take Pence any day over Trump. I am a Conservative, not a Trumpist.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Is this where you say, in your best Hilary voice, “what difference does it make?” to the thousands of US citizens and allies who’ve been told to make their own way to the airport?

Frame it however you like. End result is still the same...

That's the problem. This hasn't ended. There are still several thousands of Americans trapped behind Taliban lines. At the mercy of one the most ruthless Terrorist organizations in the world.

As for your question, I would take Pence any day over Trump. I am a Conservative, not a Trumpist.

So you are by your own definition supporting people that negotiated with Terrorists?

And to your last point forces have been deployed to help evacuate Americans and allies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58264917

johns624 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

While there is nothing we can directly do to help the current situation, we must learn from this. To do that, the situation should be discussed and dissected We MUST hold our elected officials accountable for this (Bush thru Biden), and make sure all future political candidates understand that we will not continue to tolerate this type of behavior/policy. However, I highly doubt the people of the US truly care that much nor do I think they will get past partisan politics. It will continue to be status quo, just like both parties want.

If they had any honor, they’d resign, full stop. Generals can be retired as majors.

If Biden has to resign over this, then every president ever should've resigned. Looking at this objectively, this is just a minor thing. It doesn't affect our economy or security. No laws were broken. Yes, some mistakes were made.

A “ Minor thing” with thousands of American Citizens left to the tender mercy of the Taliban, facing violence, slavery, or even execution.

Our justification for remaining in Afghanistan ended the day bin Laden died. That being said, a plan existed for the SAFE removal of all Americans and equipment from the country, agreed to by all parties, with consequences for failing to do their part. The current administration threw that in the trash, because, you know, “ORANGE MAN BAD!”

Folks, post dispassionately with links and facts. We moderators understand this is a crisis, but there is so much "mud flinging" that we will soon have to ban members to clean up this thread. This is your warning, post within forum rules.

It you need to throw a swipe at the opposing political side, don't be surprised if you are banned.

FlyingElvii wrote:

A “ Minor thing” with thousands of American Citizens left to the tender mercy of the Taliban, facing violence, slavery, or even execution.

Our justification for remaining in Afghanistan ended the day bin Laden died. That being said, a plan existed for the SAFE removal of all Americans and equipment from the country, agreed to by all parties, with consequences for failing to do their part. The current administration threw that in the trash, because, you know, “ORANGE MAN BAD!”

Who are these "thousands" of US citizens and what was "the plan"?

Let's see - airport completely surrounded by Taliban. One scared infantry man on either side away from another Khe Shan. But without the artillery fire support.

The Battle of Khe Sanh began when roughly 20,000 North Vietnamese troops surrounded an isolated combat base held by roughly 5,500 Marines. Holy S***

As US military sticks to airport, British and French forces are rescuing their citizens in Kabul: reports

https://www.armytimes.com/flashpoints/a ... l-reports/

This is a very good time to show some appreciation to management for even allowing this thread to be active. This is a kind of topic that is a Mod's nightmare.

Next, I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around what seemed from recent press conferences is chaos at the United States Defense Department about how many American citizens are still in Afghanistan and how they plan to remove them safely from wherever they may presently be.

Now some of you might wonder why I am claiming to have trouble wrapping my head around that situation at the top of the defense folk's chain of command, one short of the CIC's chair/office.

That trouble I am having is because I thought we had a technology capable of monitoring millions of citizens all over the nation and the territories to be sure that there are no threats of a nature defined as being a terror threat, but we do not have the technology to know where maybe less that 20 thousand citizens are in a nation where they had to show a passport to get in and to remain.

I am just not getting that.

All our nation's great tech skills at monitoring this-and-that and we don't know who is in Afghanistan with a U.S. passport? And have a reasonably good idea where they are?

Let's please toss politics out the window on this one and post any links anyone might have as to who exactly has the plan to get our citizens safely out of danger.

I have spent about the last 5 hours looking for that information and cannot find it, so now I am reaching out to the many members here I trust as being smart folks and asking you to help me, if you happen to come across any clear plan to help our fellow citizens out of a really horrid situation.

Thank you.

FlapOperator wrote:

Trump killed Soleimani and led a successful vaccine development effort.

So far, we've got Elphinstone, take two.

The Taliban have given more pressers than Bidens team, and reports are Biden is returning to Delaware, and the VEEP headed to Vietnam.

I'll say this no matter who you want to blame, Biden has handled this terribly after the fact and as each hour passes does worse and worse. It's getting hard to watch.

CH47A wrote:

All our nation's great tech skills at monitoring this-and-that and we don't know who is in Afghanistan with a U.S. passport? And have a reasonably good idea where they are?

I am simplifying, but basically there are two types of intelligence, human intelligence and signal intelligence. Both are hard to come by at the moment.

Let’s start with signal intelligence, traditionally the US’s strong point. Presumably, the US no longer controls the telephone and internet centres in Afghanistan. That limits options.

I would guess the US has backdoors into these communication hubs, but that assumes the US nationals have their phones on. Since the taliban can also use the phone signal to find Americans, a lot of phones might be turned of or ditched. Just speculating here!

Then the human intelligence, “boots on the ground” if you will.

The boots on the ground have just been pushed under the bus. They are either hiding, trying to suck up to the new rulers or are waiting in line to get onto the airport. Whatever the case may be, their contributions will be limited from now on.


Edited to add: it is also possible that the US knows the location of everyone, but is keeping quiet to keep the taleban guessing. They need not know the details of any evacuation plan (assuming/hoping there is one).

I am hoping I am not going to break any rules here, but one source of information that seems can be useful is the defense folks themselves and so I am offering this latest that came to my account from the Stars&Stripes folks that are digging up information on this:

US aircraft ready to evacuate thousands more per day from Afghanistan but issues on the ground slowing efforts, Pentagon says

That article contains a useful link that can supply further information.

One problem is if all of you can access that article. I am thinking you should be able to, but sometimes their server is very slow.

As for that point by one of our respected community citizens here, I agree that sharing information with the public that could help the Taliban is a very wrong thing to do, but this nation has a very serious image problem going down as I type this and I think the damage needs some repairing now. I'd like to see a cabinet fella/gal step up to a speaker's thingy and offer up a clear picture to the public that we are getting this situation under control, and I'd like to see that really soon.

That latest Stars-and-Stripes article comes about as close as I have seen before the public thus far. I mean, as close as I have seen to give us the faith we need to have in our elected and appointed officials, no matter which side of the political divide they may be on. Please toss that political stuff way, way far out onto the lawn --- for now. Lives need saving. U.S. lives. I'm sorry, but the other folks come next. It is the U.S. citizens that are at the front of the line, in my view. Sorry to many who may think I am being super cold-blooded about who comes first.

Aye Carumba

https://www.axios.com/taliban-war-chest ... 5f46f.html

In the end I don't think Biden will agree to launch airstrikes on the bigger equipment. Goodness has this spiraled out of control.

In the Army Times article I posted above, British and French special forces are driving around Kabul picking up their citizens.

We are not although we certainly have the same skill sets. If I had to wager, we have an agreement with the Taliban not to. Both sides are showing a remarkable fire discipline. Let's hope it holds.

scbriml wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

scbriml wrote:

And yet, you fail utterly to ask the obvious question. If Trump's plan was so great why did he feel the need to try and delete all his posts about it? LMFAO. What a jerk.

Well, Parliament has voiced their feelings about Biden's leadership in no uncertain terms.

Yes, and they also slammed Johnson and Raab for their totally ineffective handling of the situation. The UK should be ashamed of their role in Afghanistan for the last 20 years, all thanks to lap dog Blair's slavish sucking up to Bush. Why were we even in Afghanistan?

This is in no way criticism of the troops on the ground from all nations, who have served with distinction (aside from a very small minority). They have paid the price with limbs and lives for the follies of their political masters. It was a war that could never be won even if we were there for another 20 years.

It could be won, if somebody stopped the flow of money to the Taliban.

Read the statement of Jonathan Schwarzer

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHR ... g26427.htm

or maybe in a BBC article

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40246734

or maybe you want to see the Qatar air Force using a C-17 to fly Taliban leaders to Afghanistan

https://twitter.com/omar_quraishi/statu ... 50952?s=20

Chaostheory wrote:

Where the evacuation is concerned, seems like the Taliban aren't getting involved and are sitting back and watching the chaos unfold. A non-muslim Englishman's perspective from Kabul:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09sjqy0

Taliban bringing security to the rest of the city (and country). Goes against the narrative somewhat.

Not really. The problem isn't one side winning. That ends the civil war, it's bound to have benefits. The problem is how that side is going to run the country. Sure it will be "safe", as long as you never get out of your home alone if you're of the wrong sex, and of course wearing a potato bag. If you're the wrong ethnicity or religion, genocide is coming.

What's true is that aside from the war, terrorist attacks, assassinations, IEDs, caused by the Taliban, there were also issues with corruption, abuses of power, etc., that we would find unacceptable, but I don't know if I would put these in the same category as security problems. The risk of dying still came from the Taliban.

edit : also I find that guy to be a bit crazy, I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead soon.

The human species continues to amaze me, but sometimes not in a good way.

I grew up during the Cold War. I witnessed the happenings of the Cuban Missile Crisis from the vantage point of my father's view as he was on duty in a SAC unit at Homestead AFB. Frankly, that we survived that was a fair bit of a surprise and it was the moment when I broke loose from that 'I'm-Just-A-Kid' status.

I was on active duty when Charlie marched into Saigon. I admit that as a result of my anger at that event I did something I suppose I should be ashamed of and there are probably still some folks out there that remember my regretable actions of that day. I was unfortunately in a position of some influence and so nobody really saw fit to stop me from doing what I did.

When the Iron Curtain came down I thought it was a miracle that humans had survived the Cold War. I was so certain we'd remove ourselves from the planet with that weapons system everyone relied on. We didn't. We survived.

Then I saw the killing continue in smaller, very intense conflicts all over the planet and started to sort of wonder about us humans and why we seem so stupid sometimes; including myself.

I honestly did not think I'd ever see another Fall of Saigon style happening in my lifetime, yet here it is happening all over again. And this time it might even be worse.

I just don't get it. Why are we continuing to kill each other? Really, when are we going to stop?

Anyway, it looks like those Taliban folks are already into some killing of non-combatants and I thought the deal was they wouldn't do that. I think we better lower the 'Trust Flag' and just get a tad meaner than them and get our folks safely out of that country. Seems the UK and French military folks are doing some hardcore work to get their citizens out.

I see many references in communications coming out of the Pentagon to some negotiations between U.S. officials and the Taliban, but can we really rely on that 'Trust Flag'?

Frankly, something just doesn't smell right. I am really angry at myself, because I am beginning to have doubts as to whether our own officials are being straight with us. By "us" I mean United States citizens. I know for a fact that some peoples beyond the borders of the United States in other nations don't trust us now because of events of just the past 72 hours or so.

So now the democracy so many of us served on active duty to defend is on the line. We citizens are supposed to be the boss. I think we are going to need to get some answers after we get our citizens safely out of Afghanistan. And if we can't get those answers our democracy is at risk!

What a very, very sad state of affairs. Maybe 'horrid' is better vocabulary than 'sad'.

casinterest wrote:

There will be further investigations into what intelligence resources missed in the last 3 months leading into this resurgence that could have given pause.

I think intel was good enough that everything was lost and that the US needed to get out ASAP, which is exactly what's happening. For everything that has been left there, a lot of things haven't, and these take time to airlift.

What's more surprising is why western people there, aside from directly linked with embassy work, still thought it was a good idea to stay.

NIKV69 wrote:

Aye Carumba

https://www.axios.com/taliban-war-chest ... 5f46f.html

In the end I don't think Biden will agree to launch airstrikes on the bigger equipment. Goodness has this spiraled out of control.

Aside from the drones maybe, there is nothing fancy.

Unlike other times when things like Stingers were lost...

NIKV69 wrote:

I'll say this no matter who you want to blame, Biden has handled this terribly after the fact and as each hour passes does worse and worse. It's getting hard to watch.

OK, let's say you're the president now, from this minute. What do you do ? Do you send 20000 men back, yes or no ? Do you carpet bomb Kabul, maybe, killing countless civilians ?

NIKV69 wrote:

Aye Carumba

https://www.axios.com/taliban-war-chest ... 5f46f.html

In the end I don't think Biden will agree to launch airstrikes on the bigger equipment. Goodness has this spiraled out of control.

You're surprised? This was always going to happen, it was just a matter of when. The CIA armed and trained the Mujahideen back in the '80s and they morphed into the Taliban. Rinse and repeat.

It seems there was one of our community citizens wondering about why there would be any U.S. citizens in Afghanistan and to give credit to the question I think we need to first ask what sort of information was passed to U.S. citizens in Afghanistan about 60 or so days ago?

Let me show you a sample of an alert from our embassy in the area of the planet where I live. I'm not too keen to identify where I live, so forgive the removal of that information. And the date.

It is just a sample. A real sample, though.


< < < Copy Starts > > >

Security Alert - U.S. Embassy ??? (January ??, 20??)

Location: ???

Event: Heightened Middle East Tensions

There is heightened tension in the Middle East that may result in security risks to U.S. citizens abroad.

The Embassy will continue to review the security situation and will provide additional information as needed.

Actions to Take:

· Keep a low profile.
· Be aware of your surroundings.
· Stay alert in locations frequented by tourists
· Review your personal security plans.
· Have travel documents up to date and easily accessible.

Assistance:

For further information about security in ???:

· See the State Department's travel website for the Worldwide Caution, Travel Advisories, and ??? Country Information.
· Follow our social media accounts on Twitter and Facebook.
· Enroll in the Smart Traveler-Enrollment Program (STEP) to receive security messages and make it easier to locate you in an emergency.

< < < Copy Ends > > >

So I think we should ask what sort of warnings were sent to our citizens long enough ago for folks to start to pack up and get out of Dodge?

Now that alert above sent to me was not stating to get the heck out of Dodge, but it seems that maybe the situation in Afghanistan about 60 days ago was bad enough to have the State Department send out some very blunt messages that if you stay you are at risk. Did such warnings go out? Do any of you know?

Thank you for the reference to alerts in May and June, but I wish to be seeing some actual facts so that guessing can be brought down to a rational level.

Yes, this is a discussion platform, but I have now moved into a 'collect facts' stage and what the State Department sent out to our citizens that resided a bit ago in the nation of Afghanistan that may reflect upon the decision process a given citizen might have made seems rather important.

I think that point brought up about why non-government folks were in Afghanistan after about June is valid.

Now I am not so sure I would go with an idea like they deserve what they get if they ignored warnings. That's a tough call.

But I really want to know what warnings were sent out, if it is possible on this discussion platform in case any Airliners.Net Citizens might have been in a position to receive those warnings.

Now, to move on to digging up facts, the State Department press briefings are very useful.

Just a sample of one:

Department Press Briefing – July 6, 2021

Now it seems to me from the press briefings I have studied thus far that them folks working at that location must go through some special course on how to avoid answering questions, because . . . well, you judge that situation yourselves.

But every press briefing I study continues to strengthen the feeling that somebody is not playing straight with us citizens of the U.S. of A. and it just doesn't seem proper to be fed that bovine stuff. Aren't we supposed to be the bosses? Or is it we are only the bosses on Election Day? After that we are no longer in charge?