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phatfarmlines
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"Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:57 am

Interesting development out of Kendall, FL (Miami metro) regarding an attempted ATM robbery which occurred back in February. A male driving a pick-up was using the drive-thru ATM at a bank when he was approached by a 16-year-old juvenile and two 18-year-olds who attempted to rob him. The male victim fired his weapon and shot the 16-year-old, causing the two other suspects shoot the victim and flee. The male victim was wounded by two gunshots, but was still able to get out of the vehicle and pick up the weapon of the downed 16-year-old and drove off.

A few minutes later, the same victim returned to the scene to fire additional shots at the downed 16-year-old, and called in 911 simultaneously to report "that someone was firing shots at him."

After the video footage review, the victim who was shot was arrested for aggravated battery.

It's interesting that if the victim just simply drove off after the exchange, that the "Stand Your Ground" law would have validated his actions. But that broke off when he came back to the scene and unloaded on the downed 16-year-old.

Original news segment from February:
Teen recently released from juvenile custody killed in shooting outside BB&T Bank
Source: WPLG News via YouTube

Updated news segment with released footage of actions taken by the victim:
Videos show shootings related to Miami-Dade attempted robbery in teen’s death
Source: WPLG News via YouTube
 
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Aaron747
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:02 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Interesting development out of Kendall, FL (Miami metro) regarding an attempted ATM robbery which occurred back in February. A male driving a pick-up was using the drive-thru ATM at a bank when he was approached by a 16-year-old juvenile and two 18-year-olds who attempted to rob him. The male victim fired his weapon and shot the 16-year-old, causing the two other suspects shoot the victim and flee. The male victim was wounded by two gunshots, but was still able to get out of the vehicle and pick up the weapon of the downed 16-year-old and drove off.

A few minutes later, the same victim returned to the scene to fire additional shots at the downed 16-year-old, and called in 911 simultaneously to report "that someone was firing shots at him."

After the video footage review, the victim who was shot was arrested for aggravated battery.

It's interesting that if the victim just simply drove off after the exchange, that the "Stand Your Ground" law would have validated his actions. But that broke off when he came back to the scene and unloaded on the downed 16-year-old.

Original news segment from February:
Teen recently released from juvenile custody killed in shooting outside BB&T Bank
Source: WPLG News via YouTube

Updated news segment with released footage of actions taken by the victim:
Videos show shootings related to Miami-Dade attempted robbery in teen’s death
Source: WPLG News via YouTube


As you say, there would be no controversy if the guy left after the initial provocation. Coming back and possibly making false statements to police when he realized coming back was unwise are pretty significant errors.
 
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casinterest
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:04 am

I don't see a test of "Stand your Ground" That was revenge when he returned. Perhaps rage/.anger, but not "Stand your Ground".
The initial shooting would have been defensible "Stand Your Ground"
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:05 am

Aaron747 wrote:

As you say, there would be no controversy if the guy left after the initial provocation. Coming back and possibly making false statements to police when he realized coming back was unwise are pretty significant errors.


A lot of the YT comments seem to suggest the victim should not be charged for unloading on a corpse. But you don't know if it is a corpse through video capture.

It will be hard to escape lying to authorities though about a shootout after the fact.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:26 am

He was a crime victim who became angry and then committed a crime himself. You’re not allowed to do that. Messed up situation. Shame on the kids’ mothers and fathers who are the root cause of the situation, and shame on the guy also.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:14 am

Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:17 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

As you say, there would be no controversy if the guy left after the initial provocation. Coming back and possibly making false statements to police when he realized coming back was unwise are pretty significant errors.


A lot of the YT comments seem to suggest the victim should not be charged for unloading on a corpse. But you don't know if it is a corpse through video capture.

It will be hard to escape lying to authorities though about a shootout after the fact.


He’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer either, he should have known an ATM is under video surveillance.
 
Max Q
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:27 am

Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem
 
extender
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:33 am

Stupid. All he had to do was leave and call the cops.

The other two accomplices should be charged with their cohort's murder under Florida law.
 
N1120A
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:20 am

The initial shots wouldn't even be "stand your ground." They'd be self defense in all 50 states. If someone is robbing you with a deadly weapon, you are allowed to take deadly force against them. "Stand your ground" is only an issue where the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position and you continue to try and kill them. Totally different.

Anyway, this guy returning to execute the 16 year old boy is murder, regardless of the initial motives.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:40 am

N1120A wrote:
"Stand your ground" is only an issue where the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position and you continue to try and kill them. Totally different.

That isn't "stand your ground". Stand your ground concerns staying and fighting when you have an escape route.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.
The coroner probably couldn't determine what was the killing shot. Either way, he's spending quite a few years in prison.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:42 am

Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem
Maybe he couldn't?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:47 am

johns624 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.
The coroner probably couldn't determine what was the killing shot. Either way, he's spending quite a few years in prison.


Not necessarily - they may have access to the surveillance video of the event.
 
NIKV69
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.


Wow I find myself agreeing with you more in the last 6 months than in the last 10 years but yea one you stand your ground and get out of there don't come back.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:14 pm

My take on this:

Stand your ground: it certainly started as a stand you ground situation. Assuming the driver wasn’t committing a crime while attempting to use the ATM, he had no duty to retreat or flee, and had every right to defend himself. I don’t really think this is a test of the stand your ground doctrine.

What happened next is a completely different thing. As soon as the threat stopped, e.g. the other assailants fled and he was able to drive away, the need for self defense ended.

Was it murder? If the guy in the ground was still alive, then yes, the driver murdered him when he returned to the scene and shot him. The murder did not occur during the initial confrontation. If the guy died in the initial exchange it would be justifiable homicide due to self defense.

Will he be convicted of murder? The prosecutor will have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the guy on the ground was still alive. If the prosecutor can’t prove that, then the best he could do may be: aggravated discharge of a firearm, tampering with a crime scene, abuse of a corpse, false police statements, etc. but not murder.

Prove the guy was alive, and he’ll get a murder conviction.
 
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casinterest
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:20 pm

fr8mech wrote:
My take on this:

Stand your ground: it certainly started as a stand you ground situation. Assuming the driver wasn’t committing a crime while attempting to use the ATM, he had no duty to retreat or flee, and had every right to defend himself. I don’t really think this is a test of the stand your ground doctrine.

What happened next; is a completely different thing. As soon as the threat stopped, e.g. the other assailants fled and he was able to drive away, the need for self defense ended.

Was it murder? If the guy in the ground was still alive, then yes, the driver murdered him when he returned to the scene and shot him. The murder did not occur during the initial confrontation.

Will he be convicted of murder? The prosecutor will have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the guy on the ground was still alive. If the prosecutor can’t prove that, then the best he could do may be: aggravated discharge of a firearm, tampering with a crime scene, abuse of a corpse, false police statements, etc. but not murder.

Prove the guy was alive, and he’ll get a murder conviction.


The article states that the ME believes that Clarke was dead after the initial stand your ground shooting .
I am not sure how much of a sentence the prosecutors will seek for Aggravated Assault.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/new ... d/2516794/
In a strange twist, Luis was cleared of murder and manslaughter charges but charged with aggravated battery with a firearm after prosecutors said he left the drive-thru area but returned and shot at Clarke more than ten times as Clarke lay incapacitated on the ground.


The Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner ruled that Clarke died from two gunshots from the initial encounter, which authorities said was legally justified under the state's so-called "Stand Your Ground" law.



Ten times more shots. That was pure rage and anger and mutilation of a corpse if the ME was correct/
 
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
I don't see a test of "Stand your Ground" That was revenge when he returned. Perhaps rage/.anger, but not "Stand your Ground".
The initial shooting would have been defensible "Stand Your Ground"

Agreed. The first defense was justified. Later was revenge. He committed a crime and will be prosecuted.

Lightsaber
 
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Aesma
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:24 pm

He came with the intention to kill and shot bullets that would probably kill someone alive => can't it be at least attempted murder ?
 
StarAC17
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:50 pm

Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
He came with the intention to kill and shot bullets that would probably kill someone alive => can't it be at least attempted murder ?


Did he?

Maybe he returned to make the 911 call more compatible with his narrative.

Maybe, when he returned while relating the events on the phone, he had some kind of PTSD thing occur and thought the threat was real again.

There are all kinds of defenses available to him.

I think the prosecutor had a hard time proving attempted murder of a corpse.


The prosecutor needs to find the highest level felony he can get a conviction on. Why? Because a felony conviction means he cant own or possess a firearm. And, as a lifelong firearm owner/carrier, I’m not sure I want this guy representing me.
 
bpatus297
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:00 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


These violent criminals will not stop until their actions are met with real repercussions, including people defending themselves. I will never fault someone for defending themselves.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:06 pm

Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Just out of curiosity, the story says 3 assailants. Does anyone see the third? Is he maybe in front of the car, barring the way? I know if I was planning this kind of crime, I would have someone in front.

True, he could have run him down, if the assailant was in the way, but the human mind is a strange thing. We are conditioned to not hit people with the car. Maybe, in the stress of the situation, this prohibition kicked in, and he subconsciously chose not to drive through the assailant (is that really an assailant or someone who chose a bad time to walk in front of my car!).

All speculation, of course.
 
jetwet1
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.


I agree with you, however, try finding 12 people in that community that would convict him, reality sadly is I (and it looks like the prosecutor) don't think it would be possible, so you go for what you can get.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:21 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.
Your making assumptions. I didn't see where they said there were 3 armed assailants, just 3 assailants. How do you know you won't get shot after complying? It happens all the time.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:22 pm

Aesma wrote:
He came with the intention to kill and shot bullets that would probably kill someone alive => can't it be at least attempted murder ?
You can't have "attempted murder" for someone who is already dead.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:34 pm

“Stand your ground” does not mean “leave, then retake your ground with unlimited amounts of deadly force” lol. Unless he was protecting the life of a nearby innocent person by doing so.
 
petertenthije
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
You can't have "attempted murder" for someone who is already dead.

If you do not know if the other guy’s death, then surely it is attempted murder?

It’s about the attempt, not the result. You want to murder someone and you fail, so it is attempted murder. Whether you failed because of a jammed gun or because the other guy is already death should not matter.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:33 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You can't have "attempted murder" for someone who is already dead.

If you do not know if the other guy’s death, then surely it is attempted murder?

It’s about the attempt, not the result. You want to murder someone and you fail, so it is attempted murder. Whether you failed because of a jammed gun or because the other guy is already death should not matter.
That's not how the law works.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:21 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You can't have "attempted murder" for someone who is already dead.

If you do not know if the other guy’s death, then surely it is attempted murder?

It’s about the attempt, not the result. You want to murder someone and you fail, so it is attempted murder. Whether you failed because of a jammed gun or because the other guy is already death should not matter.


Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.

It’s not about what you think or what you know or even what you see…it’s about what you can prove. Granted, that in self defense cases, the burden of proof does fall on the defendant to prove that he was in imminent danger and acted in a reasonable manner. But, in this case, the self defense action was ended. The state has the burden of proof to show that the driver knew the attacker was alive in order to secure an attempted murder conviction. I don’t think the state can prove that.
 
N1120A
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
"Stand your ground" is only an issue where the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position and you continue to try and kill them. Totally different.

That isn't "stand your ground". Stand your ground concerns staying and fighting when you have an escape route.


That is not at all how it is applied.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:35 pm

N1120A wrote:
johns624 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
"Stand your ground" is only an issue where the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position and you continue to try and kill them. Totally different.

That isn't "stand your ground". Stand your ground concerns staying and fighting when you have an escape route.


That is not at all how it is applied.


The way I see it, there are 5 elements to stand your ground:
1) You must have the legal right to be where you are.
2) You can’t be doing anything illegal.
3) The force used must be proportional.
4) You can not be the aggressor.
5) the threat must be imminent.

If, as you say, “the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position” then stand your ground would no longer apply because the threat is no longer immediate. You do not have a right to pursue…unless you have a reasonable belief that the perpetrator presents an immediate threat to someone else, e.g. carjacking.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:39 pm

fr8mech wrote:
N1120A wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That isn't "stand your ground". Stand your ground concerns staying and fighting when you have an escape route.


That is not at all how it is applied.


The way I see it, there are 5 elements to stand your ground:
1) You must have the legal right to be where you are.
2) You can’t be doing anything illegal.
3) The force used must be proportional.
4) You can not be the aggressor.
5) the threat must be imminent.

If, as you say, “the perpetrator has taken a retreating or disabled position” then stand your ground would no longer apply because the threat is no longer immediate. You do not have a right to pursue…unless you have a reasonable belief that the perpetrator presents an immediate threat to someone else, e.g. carjacking.
This is correct.
 
Max Q
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:45 am

bpatus297 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


These violent criminals will not stop until their actions are met with real repercussions, including people defending themselves. I will never fault someone for defending themselves.




He could have defended himself by driving away


Would have been far easier than trying to be ‘Dirty Harry’
 
extender
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:41 am

Max Q wrote:
He could have defended himself by driving away


Would have been far easier than trying to be ‘Dirty Harry’


He knew they were coming, as he had his pistol out; driving away may or may not have let him evade without harm. I have seen where the driver will step on the gas, and the bad guys shoot at you anyways. A headrest isn't armored, so there is no guarantee.

He was fine legally until he returned.

The 16 year-old that was shot, appears to have had a CNS shot as indicated by the straight, stiff legs.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:55 pm

extender wrote:
Max Q wrote:
He could have defended himself by driving away


Would have been far easier than trying to be ‘Dirty Harry’


He knew they were coming, as he had his pistol out; driving away may or may not have let him evade without harm. I have seen where the driver will step on the gas, and the bad guys shoot at you anyways. A headrest isn't armored, so there is no guarantee.

He was fine legally until he returned.

The 16 year-old that was shot, appears to have had a CNS shot as indicated by the straight, stiff legs.


In the video when he unloaded 10 rounds into the kid you see his legs move, would they move if he was already dead?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

In the video when he unloaded 10 rounds into the kid you see his legs move, would they move if he was already dead?


The bullets impacting into the body impart kinetic energy which needs to be dissipated. I’m not surprised the extremities move.

One of the great fallacies of TV cop shows: getting shot while wearing a bullet proof vest and not getting injured. While the vest can protect from the penetration, the body still feel the impact and is injured. At close range, a 9mm will knock you down.
 
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casinterest
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:28 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

In the video when he unloaded 10 rounds into the kid you see his legs move, would they move if he was already dead?


The bullets impacting into the body impart kinetic energy which needs to be dissipated. I’m not surprised the extremities move.

One of the great fallacies of TV cop shows: getting shot while wearing a bullet proof vest and not getting injured. While the vest can protect from the penetration, the body still feel the impact and is injured. At close range, a 9mm will knock you down.


Per the article I read, there were 4 minutes between the initial shooting and the return. I would assume the police watched all 4 minutes, and are able to monitor the deceased for shots and signs of life. if they were wrong, I would assume the prosecution would push to reissue charges.
 
stratosphere
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:26 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


Really? Have you ever been held up at gunpoint? ..I have right in front of my house I complied and gave them my money and was fortunate but the previous week another guy was working on a house in Memphis 3 kids came up and robbed him he complied too and was shot point blank in the face and murdered. Don't think that didn't cross my mind when I was being robbed i was waiting for the next shoe to drop. After that I got my carry permit and am armed at all times. The victim in this case made a mistake by coming back but I get the anger people are fed up with being victims. If i was on the jury this guy would walk even for coming back and unloading on the perp. The victim did society a favor possibly saved a future victim from being robbed or worse.
 
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par13del
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:02 pm

I must be weird, when he returned and opened fire while on the phone reporting the shooting my only thought was that he was setting up an alibi for the shooting, at no time did it even enter my mind that he was angry or seeking revenge until I started reading the comments in the thread.
I do wonder what else was going on why he thought it necessary to exit his vehicle and take the victim's weapon, why not just drive out while calling the police?
I would drive out as I know there were other assailants who were also armed and the possibility they may return to assist their friend.
Be interesting if they ran his cell phone records to see if he called anyone else prior to calling 911.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:16 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.


That seems fairly simple. Did he get out of the car and check for vitals? If not, then he doesn't know the guy is dead.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:18 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.


That seems fairly simple. Did he get out of the car and check for vitals? If not, then he doesn't know the guy is dead.


Case closed!
 
johns624
Posts: 3980
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:49 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.


That seems fairly simple. Did he get out of the car and check for vitals? If not, then he doesn't know the guy is dead.
There are other factors---movement, color of skin, size of the blood puddle, where the holes are in the body, etc.
 
johns624
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:52 pm

stratosphere wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


Really? Have you ever been held up at gunpoint? ..I have right in front of my house I complied and gave them my money and was fortunate but the previous week another guy was working on a house in Memphis 3 kids came up and robbed him he complied too and was shot point blank in the face and murdered. Don't think that didn't cross my mind when I was being robbed i was waiting for the next shoe to drop. After that I got my carry permit and am armed at all times. The victim in this case made a mistake by coming back but I get the anger people are fed up with being victims. If i was on the jury this guy would walk even for coming back and unloading on the perp. The victim did society a favor possibly saved a future victim from being robbed or worse.
+1. If you think that they will shoot you, even after complying, then go down fighting. Perfect example-Flight 93 is a perfect example.
 
extender
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:02 pm

stratosphere wrote:
The victim in this case made a mistake by coming back but I get the anger people are fed up with being victims. If i was on the jury this guy would walk even for coming back and unloading on the perp. The victim did society a favor possibly saved a future victim from being robbed or worse.


Agree with you, but this is one reason why CWP holders should familiarize themselves with what to do after a lethal force encounter. Sad that it was a 16 year-old, but he can still kill you just the same. His accomplices should be charged with murder.

As for 1v3, sometimes if you wait your turn, you can come out on top of a lethal force encounter. If you are threatened with lethal force, compliance/submission is no guarantee of survival.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
There are other factors---movement, color of skin, size of the blood puddle, where the holes are in the body, etc.


Some of those can give an indication that a person MAY be dead.

Heck, even if he checked vitals, that only indicates that a person is currently clinically dead. People can be revived.
 
extender
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:20 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
johns624 wrote:
There are other factors---movement, color of skin, size of the blood puddle, where the holes are in the body, etc.


Some of those can give an indication that a person MAY be dead.

Heck, even if he checked vitals, that only indicates that a person is currently clinically dead. People can be revived.


Not by ordinary means. Chest compressions can also push blood through the newly made punctures. After a lethal force encounter, you need to notify the authorities, and ask for medical assistance. As a lay-person, you are not required to provide any life saving measures(Especially if you made him leak). Now, once the threat is eliminated, the perp can no longer hold a weapon, gives up, or expires; you need to stop shooting at them.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:53 pm

extender wrote:
Not by ordinary means. Chest compressions can also push blood through the newly made punctures. After a lethal force encounter, you need to notify the authorities, and ask for medical assistance. As a lay-person, you are not required to provide any life saving measures(Especially if you made him leak).


I wasn't saying the guy should have tried to revive him. I was saying that even if people are clinically dead in the moment, that doesn't mean they will stay that way 100% of the time.

The point was that I don't know how the guy in the truck could make a definitive determination that the other guy was dead, and therefore feel perfectly comfortable pumping 10 more bullets into him.

And if he did absolutely know he was dead, then why shoot him more?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:57 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.


That seems fairly simple. Did he get out of the car and check for vitals? If not, then he doesn't know the guy is dead.


And, he doesn’t know if he’s alive either…Schrodinger’s body?

You know, after I made that statement, and well after I could edit, I wanted to actually say:

“Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver thought the guy was alive.”

That would be the key, proving what was in the driver’s mind when he returned and shot again.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12648
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:11 pm

fr8mech wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver did not know the guy was dead.


That seems fairly simple. Did he get out of the car and check for vitals? If not, then he doesn't know the guy is dead.


And, he doesn’t know if he’s alive either…Schrodinger’s body?

You know, after I made that statement, and well after I could edit, I wanted to actually say:

“Ok, you’re the prosecutor. Prove that the driver thought the guy was alive.”

That would be the key, proving what was in the driver’s mind when he returned and shot again.


I'll fully admit, I don't know how the law is written.

But from a logical perspective, if you don't know that someone is dead, and you decide to shoot that person multiple times, I think we can draw a reasonable conclusion that you are trying to make sure that person is dead.

If you thought the guy was alive, then you are clearly trying to kill him.
If you thought the guy was dead, there is absolutely no reason to keep shooting him.

The only reason to shoot him again is to make sure he dies.

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