Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:31 pm

Sticking up a grown man driving a pickup truck was obviously not a good move.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8311
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:38 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
But from a logical perspective, if you don't know that someone is dead, and you decide to shoot that person multiple times, I think we can draw a reasonable conclusion that you are trying to make sure that person is dead.

If you thought the guy was alive, then you are clearly trying to kill him.
If you thought the guy was dead, there is absolutely no reason to keep shooting him.

The only reason to shoot him again is to make sure he dies.


Or:

fr8mech wrote:
Maybe he returned to make the 911 call more compatible with his narrative.

Maybe, when he returned while relating the events on the phone, he had some kind of PTSD thing occur and thought the threat was real again.

There are all kinds of defenses available to him.


Or, maybe he was just pissed and when he saw his assailant again, he just vented. I’d rather he did that into a body than into the air.

Either way, you can’t kill a dead person…I don’t even think you can attempt to kill a dead person. There’s about a zero chance a prosecutor could prove that the driver thought the assailant was alive.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12589
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:11 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
He was a crime victim who became angry and then committed a crime himself. You’re not allowed to do that. Messed up situation.


Yes, it is.

LCDFlight wrote:
Shame on the kids’ mothers and fathers who are the root cause of the situation, and shame on the guy also.


That is way too easy to blame the kids’ mothers and fathers.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1261
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
He was a crime victim who became angry and then committed a crime himself. You’re not allowed to do that. Messed up situation.


Yes, it is.

LCDFlight wrote:
Shame on the kids’ mothers and fathers who are the root cause of the situation, and shame on the guy also.


That is way too easy to blame the kids’ mothers and fathers.


Yes, it is easy and should be done more often.

If I had gone around doing things like that, my parents would have killed me personally, and then apologized to the public for all the trouble. Different cultural values.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12662
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:26 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Maybe he returned to make the 911 call more compatible with his narrative.


What does that have to do with shooting the guy?

fr8mech wrote:
Maybe, when he returned while relating the events on the phone, he had some kind of PTSD thing occur and thought the threat was real again.


I'll certainly concede that as a possibility.

fr8mech wrote:
Or, maybe he was just pissed and when he saw his assailant again, he just vented. I’d rather he did that into a body than into the air.

Either way, you can’t kill a dead person…I don’t even think you can attempt to kill a dead person. There’s about a zero chance a prosecutor could prove that the driver thought the assailant was alive.


Shooting someone is not an appropriate way to vent.

If I see someone on the ground with their eyes closed and I shoot them, can I claim I simply didn't know they were alive, even though they were just sleeping? That's a pretty freaking low bar to set.

Again, without knowing the law, seems like you should know they're dead, rather than think they may not be alive. Otherwise, you are attempting to kill them, whether you are successful or not.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:01 pm

stratosphere wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why didn’t he just floor it the moment they started shooting ?


Would have avoided the entire problem


Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


Really? Have you ever been held up at gunpoint? ..I have right in front of my house I complied and gave them my money and was fortunate but the previous week another guy was working on a house in Memphis 3 kids came up and robbed him he complied too and was shot point blank in the face and murdered. Don't think that didn't cross my mind when I was being robbed i was waiting for the next shoe to drop. After that I got my carry permit and am armed at all times. The victim in this case made a mistake by coming back but I get the anger people are fed up with being victims. If i was on the jury this guy would walk even for coming back and unloading on the perp. The victim did society a favor possibly saved a future victim from being robbed or worse.


I haven't but common sense would say if someone has a gun pointed at you and you have one and it isn't drawn you going for it would make it easy for the perp to shoot you as all they have to do is pull the trigger.

This is why all robbery training stresses compliance and de-escalation. Even tactical units do not go into an armed robbery situation guns ablazing.

Also you would never be put on that jury as the defense would reject you. Jurors have to be objective and not driven by emotion.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12589
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:26 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
He was a crime victim who became angry and then committed a crime himself. You’re not allowed to do that. Messed up situation.


Yes, it is.

LCDFlight wrote:
Shame on the kids’ mothers and fathers who are the root cause of the situation, and shame on the guy also.


That is way too easy to blame the kids’ mothers and fathers.


Yes, it is easy and should be done more often.

If I had gone around doing things like that, my parents would have killed me personally, and then apologized to the public for all the trouble.


It is easy because it gives someone to blame someone. It is easy because it gives us a narrow view without the need to look at the big picture. It is easy because it gives us in a comfortable position someone to blame without the need to change something.

LCDFlight wrote:
Different cultural values.


That is a very dangerious assumption you make here.
 
emperortk
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:09 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Either way, you can’t kill a dead person…I don’t even think you can attempt to kill a dead person. There’s about a zero chance a prosecutor could prove that the driver thought the assailant was alive.


What the driver was thinking is irrelevant. If prosecutors had to prove the thoughts of a perpetrator accused of a crime, our legal system would collapse. A prosecutor would only have to demonstrate that a reasonable person would have known that the assailant was still alive when the driver unloaded on him the second time. In this case that could be difficult to prove.

The driver could certainly be charged with mutilating a human body (among other things too perhaps), which is a 2nd degree felony in FL.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8311
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:35 pm

emperortk wrote:
What the driver was thinking is irrelevant. If prosecutors had to prove the thoughts of a perpetrator accused of a crime, our legal system would collapse. A prosecutor would only have to demonstrate that a reasonable person would have known that the assailant was still alive when the driver unloaded on him the second time. In this case that could be difficult to prove.


I’ll disagree on your first point, because what the person is thinking speaks to motive. But, I’ll concede the second point, and I should have used the “reasonable person” standard. But, as you point out, it would be difficult to prove that a reasonable person would think the assailant was alive.

emperortk wrote:
The driver could certainly be charged with mutilating a human body (among other things too perhaps), which is a 2nd degree felony in FL


Good. Even if he doesn't do time, he loses the right to carry a firearm. And, I don’t want someone who can’t control himself carrying a firearm.

vikkyvik wrote:
Shooting someone is not an appropriate way to vent.


No, it certainly isn’t. I’m not defending his actions, just providing some reasoning as to why he may have done it.
 
johns624
Posts: 4053
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:19 am

StarAC17 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

Exactly! In the face of the an armed robbery with more than one armed assailant even if you are armed comply with the demands. I don't care if you want to prove a point to delinquent kids, you have one gun they have 3.

Just because you have a legal right to defend yourself doesn't mean you should.


Really? Have you ever been held up at gunpoint? ..I have right in front of my house I complied and gave them my money and was fortunate but the previous week another guy was working on a house in Memphis 3 kids came up and robbed him he complied too and was shot point blank in the face and murdered. Don't think that didn't cross my mind when I was being robbed i was waiting for the next shoe to drop. After that I got my carry permit and am armed at all times. The victim in this case made a mistake by coming back but I get the anger people are fed up with being victims. If i was on the jury this guy would walk even for coming back and unloading on the perp. The victim did society a favor possibly saved a future victim from being robbed or worse.


I haven't but common sense would say if someone has a gun pointed at you and you have one and it isn't drawn you going for it would make it easy for the perp to shoot you as all they have to do is pull the trigger.

This is why all robbery training stresses compliance and de-escalation. Even tactical units do not go into an armed robbery situation guns ablazing.

Also you would never be put on that jury as the defense would reject you. Jurors have to be objective and not driven by emotion.
You're assuming that he didn't have his gun in hand. With it being nighttime, and maybe a sketchy neighborhood, there is a high likelihood that he did have his gun in hand. Besides, I worked for years at a large gun range. I know my shooting ability and that of the typical gangbanger.
You keep saying that he shouldn't have done what he did (defending himself) because it would turn out badly. Yet, except for what he did after the fact, it didn't.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2817
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:18 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.


I seriously doubt a jury would convict on capital murder charges. A second degree murder charge would probably be an easier case to make.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: "Stand Your Ground" Test in Miami: Attempted ATM Robbery

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:40 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Thet’s clearly premeditated murder, he came back with the intention to kill and he did, if I was the prosecutor I’d be pushing for the death penalty.


I seriously doubt a jury would convict on capital murder charges. A second degree murder charge would probably be an easier case to make.

I suspect that to preserve the existing law, the more serious capital charge will be levied, thus resulting in no conviction.
Expect this to ultimately end up in civil court.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MohawkWeekend and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos