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nwadeicer
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United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:07 pm

Can't see this going over to well with the masses.
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/corona ... 86ab638cac
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:08 pm

There will be grumpy people, but a majority of the workforce is already vaccinated.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:14 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
Can't see this going over to well with the masses.
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/corona ... 86ab638cac

I believe over 90% of pilots, 80% of flight attendants, and close to 70% of other workgroups are already vaccinated. There will be a few upset by this but overall, the masses are already vaccinated.
 
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OA412
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:15 pm

UA isn't going to be the last carrier to mandate vaccines, others will soon follow suit. Full FDA approval is on its way, with some predicting it'll happen right around Labor Day, which will make it that much more difficult to make a case against employer vaccination mandates.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:18 pm

70% of American adults have had at least 1 shot, and this keep climbing. Vaccine mandate by employers will convince a good chunk of the remaining 30%.
You will always have a few reluctant ones; but I don't see United firing a lot of people over this mandate.
 
AshFlops
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:21 pm

Good for them, I hope all of the other airlines follow suit. Next is time to mandate vaccines for all passengers. Once life gets difficult for the unvaccinated, they will finally come to their senses. As a frequent traveller, I sure do not want to have to interface with the unvaccinated. Vaccines = Country First.
 
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seahawks7757
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:23 pm

Good. All airlines should follow and mandate this along with requiring passengers to be vaccinated. No Shirt, No Shoes, No vaccine, No Service!
 
nwadeicer
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:29 pm

I have no problem with the vaccination. However there are people, like myself, who have had reactions to other vaccines and have been told to refrain from getting further vaccines. I have asked my primary care doctor about getting it and cannot get a firm answer if I could or not.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:32 pm

I just wish they'd mandate the flu vaccine, too, to be fair.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:35 pm

The airline set a late October deadline for employees to prove vaccination status, and said it could move earlier if a vaccine receives full federal approval sooner.


If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like they are technically scheduling it for when they expect FDA approval to have been received, but not providing much if any time at that point to get inoculated.

They need to be careful here. Federal law, and long established medical ethics requires medical products under emergency use authorization to be optional.

I think it would be more prudent, better communicated, and gain better cooperation to tie their policy clearly to FDA approval. Given the widespread availability of the vaccine at this point, receiving a dose within 4 weeks of approval seems like a rapid, but achievable goal.

A lot of the people holding back from getting the vaccine are citing the fact that it has not yet been through the full normal review process. I was comfortable getting mine months ago based on having read the FDA review summaries (and the summary alone was 50+ pages) for the EUA safety and effectiveness reviews. For those without the background to understand those reviews and concerned about the rush that was present to get the EUA's issued, regular FDA approval have always been the benchmark for ensuring they have high confidence a medical product is safe to use.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:41 pm

My only concern is that, if someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine (which is extremely rare but it does happen), they would be set up for a giant lawsuit. Ive had Covid and I got the vaccine. I wish more people would get the vaccine, but mandating vaccines can be tricky in some cases.
 
AshFlops
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:43 pm

seahawks7757 wrote:
Good. All airlines should follow and mandate this along with requiring passengers to be vaccinated. No Shirt, No Shoes, No vaccine, No Service!


How about No Shirt, No Shoes, No Vaccine, No Mask, No Service.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:44 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
I have no problem with the vaccination. However there are people, like myself, who have had reactions to other vaccines and have been told to refrain from getting further vaccines. I have asked my primary care doctor about getting it and cannot get a firm answer if I could or not.


If your employer might enact a mandate, I recommend ahead of time getting a record of the reaction. If you saw a doctor about the reaction originally, request the treatment notes from that visit if you did not previously keep them.

And it sounds like it may be prudent to push your PCP more firmly for an answer. I don't think it needs to be as clear as saying you can not receive the vaccine, but he should be able to say something like, "NWA Deicer has has had an adverse reaction from a past vaccination. Available data on SARS-COV-2 vaccines do not at this time indicate whether or not a similar history is a significant risk factor for reactions to SARS-COV-2 vaccines, so he may be at elevated health risk compared to the general population."
 
iamlucky13
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:51 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
My only concern is that, if someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine (which is extremely rare but it does happen), they would be set up for a giant lawsuit. Ive had Covid and I got the vaccine. I wish more people would get the vaccine, but mandating vaccines can be tricky in some cases.


This is part of the medical ethics mentioned above. The accepted dividing line is FDA authorization. An organization acting under good faith based on the recommendation of the FDA as the competent authority on the matter that a product is approved should be legally clear.

However, an organization mandating it during emergency use authorization despite the warnings from the FDA about the status would expose themselves to potential liability.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:56 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like they are technically scheduling it for when they expect FDA approval to have been received, but not providing much if any time at that point to get inoculated.


Assuming vaccine will be fully licensed by the FDA first week of September, gives seven weeks. Need five weeks to develop full immunity.

I think everyone is jumping on the mandate bandwagon after USDOJ opinion that mandates will be upheld, and there is enough pressure on FDA to fully approve in case EUA objections are raised.

Cart before the horse, but works.
 
nclarks
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:11 pm

AshFlops wrote:
Good for them, I hope all of the other airlines follow suit. Next is time to mandate vaccines for all passengers. Once life gets difficult for the unvaccinated, they will finally come to their senses. As a frequent traveller, I sure do not want to have to interface with the unvaccinated. Vaccines = Country First.



if you're vaccinated, why do you care?
 
aircatalonia
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:20 pm

This is wrong on so many levels. First of all how can they force people to take any medication they don't want to? Are they prepared to take responsibility in case of adverse effects?

Secondly, as of now this is an experimental therapy that requires informed consent in some countries. Are they going to sign those on behalf of the employee?

And lastly Israeli data indicates that: 'effectiveness against infection and mild symptoms decreases rapidly over time and reaches near-zero levels after about half a year'. Are they going to force these injections on their workers every six months or less? What about longterm complications? Just wow.

Official Swiss research here: https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-go ... -the-ugly/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:22 pm

nclarks wrote:
AshFlops wrote:
Good for them, I hope all of the other airlines follow suit. Next is time to mandate vaccines for all passengers. Once life gets difficult for the unvaccinated, they will finally come to their senses. As a frequent traveller, I sure do not want to have to interface with the unvaccinated. Vaccines = Country First.



if you're vaccinated, why do you care?


A healthy economy and country = better business environment for UA. Not completing public health vaccine targets stands in the way.
 
nclarks
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
nclarks wrote:
AshFlops wrote:
Good for them, I hope all of the other airlines follow suit. Next is time to mandate vaccines for all passengers. Once life gets difficult for the unvaccinated, they will finally come to their senses. As a frequent traveller, I sure do not want to have to interface with the unvaccinated. Vaccines = Country First.



if you're vaccinated, why do you care?


A healthy economy and country = better business environment for UA. Not completing public health vaccine targets stands in the way.


What about all the other diseases and illnesses that a vaccine was not mandatory. We made it through those times. What is different about this one? No one can possibly know the long term effects from this either. So why tell anyone what they are required to do?
 
AshFlops
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:42 pm

nclarks wrote:
AshFlops wrote:
Good for them, I hope all of the other airlines follow suit. Next is time to mandate vaccines for all passengers. Once life gets difficult for the unvaccinated, they will finally come to their senses. As a frequent traveller, I sure do not want to have to interface with the unvaccinated. Vaccines = Country First.



if you're vaccinated, why do you care?


Because I believe in Country First, not Me First.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:48 pm

nclarks wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
nclarks wrote:


if you're vaccinated, why do you care?


A healthy economy and country = better business environment for UA. Not completing public health vaccine targets stands in the way.


What about all the other diseases and illnesses that a vaccine was not mandatory. We made it through those times. What is different about this one? No one can possibly know the long term effects from this either. So why tell anyone what they are required to do?


There are no long term effects from mRNA vaccines - their molecular contents are broken down in the body within days.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where ... roteins-go

Other illnesses do not overwhelm the healthcare system like this one. That’s the difference. The ones that did, like polio and smallpox, were eradicated by mass vaccination.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Sooner787
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:55 pm

AshFlops wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
Good. All airlines should follow and mandate this along with requiring passengers to be vaccinated. No Shirt, No Shoes, No vaccine, No Service!


How about No Shirt, No Shoes, No Vaccine, No Mask, No Service.


I'd like to see airports do what my very large trucking company employer did last month.

They dropped the mask requirement in the office. In it's place, they set up temp check kiosks
at each entrance. When we report for work, we get scanned and kiosk spits out a green
sticker we have to wear all day long. Surely that could be adopted at TSA checkpoints
and we could ditch the masks and frankly reduce the number if inflight pax meltdowns.
 
nclarks
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
nclarks wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

A healthy economy and country = better business environment for UA. Not completing public health vaccine targets stands in the way.


What about all the other diseases and illnesses that a vaccine was not mandatory. We made it through those times. What is different about this one? No one can possibly know the long term effects from this either. So why tell anyone what they are required to do?


There are no long term effects from mRNA vaccines - their molecular contents are broken down in the body within days.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where ... roteins-go

Other illnesses do not overwhelm the healthcare system like this one. That’s the difference. The ones that did, like polio and smallpox, were eradicated by mass vaccination.


Even a document from Pfizer recently surfaced about not knowing the long term effects of this vaccine.

The common flu rages through the country every year and a lot of people die from it. So why isn't the flu shot mandated? Also, there hasn't been one case of the common flu I don't think.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:01 pm

nclarks wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
nclarks wrote:

What about all the other diseases and illnesses that a vaccine was not mandatory. We made it through those times. What is different about this one? No one can possibly know the long term effects from this either. So why tell anyone what they are required to do?


There are no long term effects from mRNA vaccines - their molecular contents are broken down in the body within days.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where ... roteins-go

Other illnesses do not overwhelm the healthcare system like this one. That’s the difference. The ones that did, like polio and smallpox, were eradicated by mass vaccination.


Even a document from Pfizer recently surfaced about not knowing the long term effects of this vaccine.

The common flu rages through the country every year and a lot of people die from it. So why isn't the flu shot mandated? Also, there hasn't been one case of the common flu I don't think.


‘Not knowing’ is a scientifically accurate statement because there isn’t any long term data. But experts can confidently predict based on vaccine history and how mRNA vaccines work that long term side effects are extremely unlikely.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/ho ... de-effects

The flu shot is not mandated because most flu seasons don’t have strains that keep ICUs full. Public health management is about assuring operational capacity in the healthcare system. When hospitals are overrun with COVID, they can’t treat people for other things.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AtlasRise
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:05 pm

This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one. If you believe the vax works, then why care if someone else doesn't get it? If you believe you're safe, then why care what someone else does or doesn't do with their own body? Alas, I know more people that have committed suicide these past 18 months than who died from coivd. And their suicides were either directly or indirectly related to their hardships resulting from public response to a virus that is generally harmless to 99.9% of people.
 
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Polot
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:07 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:

This will only stop when there is a massive accident like millions of people simultaneously developing an adverse reaction to these injections. Then we will have the real health crisis they keep talking about. Unfortunately they are completly blind to the most basic reasoning such as the fact that people who got vaccinated six months ago are already spreading the virus just as much as the rest of us.


Spreading the virus is not the problem - its interference with normal operation of the healthcare system is. Vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization rates and that’s the goal.


What really interferes with normal operations are the current isolation protocols.

No, it is the lack of available beds and ventilators. Trust me I know all about it. I had a relative in the the ICU ( for non Covid related reasons) who had to be moved to the OR recovery room (along with everyone else in the ICu not with Covid) to make some room for the 40 unvaccinated people sitting in the ER with severe covid symptoms. Which of course then limits the amount of surgery the hospital can do because the OR recovery room is over run with patients.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:11 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:

This will only stop when there is a massive accident like millions of people simultaneously developing an adverse reaction to these injections. Then we will have the real health crisis they keep talking about. Unfortunately they are completly blind to the most basic reasoning such as the fact that people who got vaccinated six months ago are already spreading the virus just as much as the rest of us.


Spreading the virus is not the problem - its interference with normal operation of the healthcare system is. Vaccines dramatically reduce hospitalization rates and that’s the goal.


What really interferes with normal operations are the current isolation protocols.


Those are necessary because of the viral load in aerosols. After more than one year it’s unbelievable not to have awareness of this stuff.

And you have no idea the demands acute respitory treatment puts on staff.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:12 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one. If you believe the vax works, then why care if someone else doesn't get it? If you believe you're safe, then why care what someone else does or doesn't do with their own body? Alas, I know more people that have committed suicide these past 18 months than who died from coivd. And their suicides were either directly or indirectly related to their hardships resulting from public response to a virus that is generally harmless to 99.9% of people.


Because that's not how a contagious virus works. Amazing so many people don't understand that fact. There is a reason we already have a number MANDATORY vaccines.

I know zero suicides and multiple COVID deaths, but lets no use anecdotes to justify our point. The fact remains COVID had been very deadly, despite the fact that doesn't fit your narrative.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
My only concern is that, if someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine (which is extremely rare but it does happen), they would be set up for a giant lawsuit. Ive had Covid and I got the vaccine. I wish more people would get the vaccine, but mandating vaccines can be tricky in some cases.


This is part of the medical ethics mentioned above. The accepted dividing line is FDA authorization. An organization acting under good faith based on the recommendation of the FDA as the competent authority on the matter that a product is approved should be legally clear.

However, an organization mandating it during emergency use authorization despite the warnings from the FDA about the status would expose themselves to potential liability.


(This may have been your point, but for clarity.) UA imposes the mandate from full FDA authorization, not immediately.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one. If you believe the vax works, then why care if someone else doesn't get it? If you believe you're safe, then why care what someone else does or doesn't do with their own body? Alas, I know more people that have committed suicide these past 18 months than who died from coivd. And their suicides were either directly or indirectly related to their hardships resulting from public response to a virus that is generally harmless to 99.9% of people.


Belief is irrelevant.

“...reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

- Dr. Richard Feynman, Challenger Accident Report
 
Trk1
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:14 pm

Great news-- Now lets have the FAA require the same for domestic passengers. Should like this will be done for International arriving passengers soon. The sooner we can do this the better off we will be as a nation.

The common good is what America is all about!
 
nclarks
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:55 am

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:14 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
AtlasRise wrote:
This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one. If you believe the vax works, then why care if someone else doesn't get it? If you believe you're safe, then why care what someone else does or doesn't do with their own body? Alas, I know more people that have committed suicide these past 18 months than who died from coivd. And their suicides were either directly or indirectly related to their hardships resulting from public response to a virus that is generally harmless to 99.9% of people.


Because that's not how a contagious virus works. Amazing so many people don't understand that fact. There is a reason we already have a number MANDATORY vaccines.

I know zero suicides and multiple COVID deaths, but lets no use anecdotes to justify our point. The fact remains COVID had been very deadly, despite the fact that doesn't fit your narrative.


What vaccines are mandatory?
 
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IceCream
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:16 pm

Didn't know there were so many anti-vaxxers here...
 
nclarks
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:17 pm

Trk1 wrote:
Great news-- Now lets have the FAA require the same for domestic passengers. Should like this will be done for International arriving passengers soon. The sooner we can do this the better off we will be as a nation.

The common good is what America is all about!



vaccinated people are spreading the virus as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... k-guidance
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:17 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
I have no problem with the vaccination. However there are people, like myself, who have had reactions to other vaccines and have been told to refrain from getting further vaccines. I have asked my primary care doctor about getting it and cannot get a firm answer if I could or not.


Certainly there will be exceptions. A history of adverse reactions to vaccines is one of them.

I have a relative with Kawasaki Syndrome - he cannot get the vaccine because it could literally cause fatal heart inflammation.

But for the vast majority of people… get the jab!
 
jbs2886
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:19 pm

nclarks wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
AtlasRise wrote:
This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one. If you believe the vax works, then why care if someone else doesn't get it? If you believe you're safe, then why care what someone else does or doesn't do with their own body? Alas, I know more people that have committed suicide these past 18 months than who died from coivd. And their suicides were either directly or indirectly related to their hardships resulting from public response to a virus that is generally harmless to 99.9% of people.


Because that's not how a contagious virus works. Amazing so many people don't understand that fact. There is a reason we already have a number MANDATORY vaccines.

I know zero suicides and multiple COVID deaths, but lets no use anecdotes to justify our point. The fact remains COVID had been very deadly, despite the fact that doesn't fit your narrative.


What vaccines are mandatory?


Are you serious? Hep B, DTap, Hib, Polio, PCV, MMR, Varicella, Meningitis.
 
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PITingres
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:19 pm

AtlasRise wrote:
This is sad to see. The virus is more of a psychological ailment than a physical one.


Completely false. Tell that to the 615,000 dead of covid in the US alone, and the millions who spent extended periods in the hospital. As has been pointed out, a primary covid difference is that it overwhelms the health care systems at many levels.

I expect vaccine mandates throughout the travel industry once full FDA approval is given.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:20 pm

nclarks wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
Great news-- Now lets have the FAA require the same for domestic passengers. Should like this will be done for International arriving passengers soon. The sooner we can do this the better off we will be as a nation.

The common good is what America is all about!



vaccinated people are spreading the virus as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... k-guidance


Again, this is about hospital capacity and not spread. The who are overwhelming hospitals across the country are almost entirely unvaccinated. It's probably also worth remembering that UA would pay for those hospitalizations for the majority of the people affected by this mandate.
 
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Polot
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:20 pm

nclarks wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
Great news-- Now lets have the FAA require the same for domestic passengers. Should like this will be done for International arriving passengers soon. The sooner we can do this the better off we will be as a nation.

The common good is what America is all about!



vaccinated people are spreading the virus as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... k-guidance

But, as you link notes, provides a much stronger barrier of protection against infection and severe symptoms. That is not what you are grasping. Most of the people sitting in hospitals are not vaccinated.
 
jbs2886
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:22 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
nclarks wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
Great news-- Now lets have the FAA require the same for domestic passengers. Should like this will be done for International arriving passengers soon. The sooner we can do this the better off we will be as a nation.

The common good is what America is all about!



vaccinated people are spreading the virus as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... k-guidance


Again, this is about hospital capacity and not spread. The who are overwhelming hospitals across the country are almost entirely unvaccinated. It's probably also worth remembering that UA would pay for those hospitalizations for the majority of the people affected by this mandate.


Lets put this in context, vaccinated people who get the virus can spread it. Vaccinated people, however, are FAR less likely to contract the virus as an unvaccinated person (it takes a significant viral load to breakthrough). So before pulling out the "vaccinated people spread the virus" remember the context. If everyone that can be vaccinated were vaccinated, it becomes far harder to get infected because people are rarely exposed to the significant viral load needed to breakthrough.
 
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IceCream
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
nclarks wrote:


vaccinated people are spreading the virus as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... k-guidance


Again, this is about hospital capacity and not spread. The who are overwhelming hospitals across the country are almost entirely unvaccinated. It's probably also worth remembering that UA would pay for those hospitalizations for the majority of the people affected by this mandate.


Lets put this in context, vaccinated people who get the virus can spread it. Vaccinated people, however, are FAR less likely to contract the virus as an unvaccinated person (it takes a significant viral load to breakthrough). So before pulling out the "vaccinated people spread the virus" remember the context. If everyone that can be vaccinated were vaccinated, it becomes far harder to get infected because people are rarely exposed to the significant viral load needed to breakthrough.

This is really important. The vaccines DO work. It's probably the best way to get out of this mess.
 
yv773p
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:26 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
nclarks wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Because that's not how a contagious virus works. Amazing so many people don't understand that fact. There is a reason we already have a number MANDATORY vaccines.

I know zero suicides and multiple COVID deaths, but lets no use anecdotes to justify our point. The fact remains COVID had been very deadly, despite the fact that doesn't fit your narrative.


What vaccines are mandatory?


Are you serious? Hep B, DTap, Hib, Polio, PCV, MMR, Varicella, Meningitis.


Thank you! Somehow everyone forgot all the vaccines they got when they were kids or went to college.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:28 pm

IceCream wrote:
Didn't know there were so many anti-vaxxers here...


These are the same people that have absolutely no problem telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body..
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:28 pm

IceCream wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Again, this is about hospital capacity and not spread. The who are overwhelming hospitals across the country are almost entirely unvaccinated. It's probably also worth remembering that UA would pay for those hospitalizations for the majority of the people affected by this mandate.


Lets put this in context, vaccinated people who get the virus can spread it. Vaccinated people, however, are FAR less likely to contract the virus as an unvaccinated person (it takes a significant viral load to breakthrough). So before pulling out the "vaccinated people spread the virus" remember the context. If everyone that can be vaccinated were vaccinated, it becomes far harder to get infected because people are rarely exposed to the significant viral load needed to breakthrough.

This is really important. The vaccines DO work. It's probably the best way to get out of this mess.


Yup, they certainly aren't perfect - they don't prevent 100% and some people do have adverse reactions and shouldn't/can't get the vaccine - but they are our best tool to stop a very contagious virus.
 
travaz
Posts: 1127
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:30 pm

I got the jab and think that people should make up their own minds. If you dont want the vax then live with the consequences. If this had been left to run it's course I am convinced we would be out of it by now. Also if you had Covid and have anti bodies do you still need a vax? I had it and got the vax. Now I just want to live my life as I please not the way someone else wants. If you don't want the vax it's your problem, don't make it mine.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:31 pm

yv773p wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Are you serious? Hep B, DTap, Hib, Polio, PCV, MMR, Varicella, Meningitis.


Thank you! Somehow everyone forgot all the vaccines they got when they were kids or went to college.


Yup. There aren't really required vaccines for adults because everyone got them as children. I imagine moving to the US requires proof of vaccination/vaccination with these though, too.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:33 pm

travaz wrote:
I got the jab and think that people should make up their own minds. If you dont want the vax then live with the consequences. If this had been left to run it's course I am convinced we would be out of it by now. Also if you had Covid and have anti bodies do you still need a vax? I had it and got the vax. Now I just want to live my life as I please not the way someone else wants. If you don't want the vax it's your problem, don't make it mine.


But what about the people that cannot get the vaccine because they may have severe adverse reactions, or children, or immunocompromised so the vaccine isn't as effective? Those people then live with the consequences of others' choices not to get the vaccine. That's where this issue is coming from in addition to the fact that we can't slow the spread such that we keep allowing new variants to develop, negating a lot of the work we have done with vaccines. If this were truly just the person choosing not to get the vaccine suffering any potential consequences, I would agree - but that isn't the case here.
 
Speedy752
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:13 am

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
My only concern is that, if someone has an adverse reaction to a vaccine (which is extremely rare but it does happen), they would be set up for a giant lawsuit. Ive had Covid and I got the vaccine. I wish more people would get the vaccine, but mandating vaccines can be tricky in some cases.


This is part of the medical ethics mentioned above. The accepted dividing line is FDA authorization. An organization acting under good faith based on the recommendation of the FDA as the competent authority on the matter that a product is approved should be legally clear.

However, an organization mandating it during emergency use authorization despite the warnings from the FDA about the status would expose themselves to potential liability.


(This may have been your point, but for clarity.) UA imposes the mandate from full FDA authorization, not immediately.


So devils advocate as a person who’s been fully vaccinated since April: doesn’t this introduce a lens of the FDA “rubber stamping” approval to meet the end goal of people being vaccinated? While a portion of unvaxed are against it under all circumstances, there’s a crisis of confidence in the others that are hesitant. I worry imposing mandates upon FDA approval pushes optics that it will be approved on politics rather than merit, which would ruin the credibility of the approval in the first place. What would have been the reason not to wait until approval was given to tell employees it is required?
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1454
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like they are technically scheduling it for when they expect FDA approval to have been received, but not providing much if any time at that point to get inoculated.


Assuming vaccine will be fully licensed by the FDA first week of September, gives seven weeks. Need five weeks to develop full immunity.

I think everyone is jumping on the mandate bandwagon after USDOJ opinion that mandates will be upheld, and there is enough pressure on FDA to fully approve in case EUA objections are raised.

Cart before the horse, but works.


I figure 4 weeks to get the first dose to avoid making it unnecessarily difficult + 4 weeks +/-1 to get the 2nd = 9 weeks after FDA approval.

USDOJ opinion will be moot soon due to the pending FDA approval, so the EUA conditions will no longer apply, but I do hope the topic gets addressed in federal court to correct the problems in that document for the sake of long term precedence.

The DOJ is reading section 564 through the lens of the current political climate, not through the lens of the medical ethics considerations that were behind the enactment of the EUA provisions. It will be moot with respect to the SARS-COV-2 vaccines once they receive FDA approval, but I do hope this gets addressed now in order to set the necessary precedent for future similar situations.

The DOJ sets the tone of their opinion by starting with an omission that suggests the requirements of section 564 are merely informational, but the "information" is explicitly stated in the law as the "option to accept or refuse" the product under EUA. As they get into the details, they are surprisingly overt about this - they acknowledge that even for military members, only the president can waive option to accept or refuse for reasons of national security. Yet, then they go through a lengthy discussion of how "the option to refuse" couldn't possibly have meant that recipients actually have an option to refuse. The best part was when the DOJ actually argued that threatening someone's job is "not coercive."
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United mandates vaccines for employees

Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:41 pm

Speedy752 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

This is part of the medical ethics mentioned above. The accepted dividing line is FDA authorization. An organization acting under good faith based on the recommendation of the FDA as the competent authority on the matter that a product is approved should be legally clear.

However, an organization mandating it during emergency use authorization despite the warnings from the FDA about the status would expose themselves to potential liability.


(This may have been your point, but for clarity.) UA imposes the mandate from full FDA authorization, not immediately.


So devils advocate as a person who’s been fully vaccinated since April: doesn’t this introduce a lens of the FDA “rubber stamping” approval to meet the end goal of people being vaccinated? While a portion of unvaxed are against it under all circumstances, there’s a crisis of confidence in the others that are hesitant. I worry imposing mandates upon FDA approval pushes optics that it will be approved on politics rather than merit, which would ruin the credibility of the approval in the first place. What would have been the reason not to wait until approval was given to tell employees it is required?


Its a fair point, but I think that's more a false narrative that now creates the issue. That is, the FDA hasn't rammed this through and has been vigilant (see J&J issues, not approving AstraZeneca, the new Novavax production concerns) - its certain people that created a crisis of confidence that this was rushed and political. The people that did that don't understand (1) how a virus develops (it changes and what we know about it advances/changes), and (2) how the FDA works.

IMO, the waiting til the FDA is simply just to take away the talking point that this was an emergency use authorization (which people do NOT understand).

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