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alberchico
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Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:55 pm

https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-e ... w-contract

Wow. I did not see this coming. I'm wondering if Manchester City are starting to regret their $100 million pound deal for Grealish just as Messi becomes available.

Any thoughts on where he'll end up ?
 
leader1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:06 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-espbarcelona/story/4446414/lionel-messi-to-leave-barcelona-argentina-captain-wont-sign-new-contract

Wow. I did not see this coming. I'm wondering if Manchester City are starting to regret their $100 million pound deal for Grealish just as Messi becomes available.

Any thoughts on where he'll end up ?


PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

End of an era.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:24 pm

La Liga 2, here we come for Barca...

Kidding aside, definitely an end of an era. Barca also bring this on themselves with one bad signings after another...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:12 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
La Liga 2, here we come for Barca...

Kidding aside, definitely an end of an era. Barca also bring this on themselves with one bad signings after another...


and kind of neglecting their youth program. It is a shame really.

Messi could just play for Barsa for free, he doesn't need the money anymore. Messi brought FC Barcelona a lot, but FC Barcelona also brought Messi a lot. Apparently, he was prepared to take a salary cut of 50%, but given the financial position of Barcelona, they could not get a deal.

A shame though, Messi is the current mr. Barcelona. I can't see him playing for another team, but f he does PSG is probably the team.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:30 pm

Apparently Barcelona and Messi is a complicated hot mess of money, La Liga salary cap rules, Barcelona's debts, too much money for one player. How this will play out will be interesting.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:11 pm

leader1 wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-espbarcelona/story/4446414/lionel-messi-to-leave-barcelona-argentina-captain-wont-sign-new-contract

Wow. I did not see this coming. I'm wondering if Manchester City are starting to regret their $100 million pound deal for Grealish just as Messi becomes available.

Any thoughts on where he'll end up ?


PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

End of an era.


PSG are the 9th highest earning club in the world is n terms of revenue, but they have lost money 6 out of the last 10 years, they do however have the backing of Qatar and Poch as the manager.

Who can afford him, well the Manchester twins, Chelsea and Spurs.
 
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par13del
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:15 pm

Based on the money he might be demanding and the number of years on his body, how much is he really worth?
Possibly a lot to a team who is just about there and needs a player or two to put them over the top, but such a club will have already invested huge sums in their current players.
Funny thing, the fans around Europe just killed the so-called Super league saying the owners were greedy, let's see how much backlash there is against one of the favorite players wanting to get paid. Actually thought the thread would have had more traffic by now, surprising.
 
wingman
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:06 pm

I don't know the final offer details but one poster below says he agreed to a 50% pay cut and it still wasn't enough. Only problem is that would've been a paltry $75M (after taxes!!) per year based on the leaks of his prior deal which had him at $600M over 4 years. That's 3X higher than Patrick Mahomes' deal! His 50% pay cut would've paid him 50% more than Patrick.

Not many people talking about Serie A. On a league level it would be a stunning coup to see Messi and Ronaldo go another 2-3 years facing off. But yes, it's the end of what many would say is the greatest era of club football we've ever seen. 6 Balon d'Ors, 10 Liga titles and 4 Champions League trophies. Has anyone ever equalled that? And I say it as a life long Madrid fan..that last minute goal he scored a few years back in a clasico at the Bernabeu where he pulled off his shirt and just held the 10 aloft at the sideline..absolutely mesmerizing. I think he's the greatest player in history.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:18 pm

Not many people talking about Serie A. On a league level it would be a stunning coup to see Messi and Ronaldo go another 2-3 years facing off.


Who in Serie A, though? Inter themselves is fireselling as their Chinese owner (Suning) is in financial trouble. AC Milan? Not that much better.

That leaves Juve. Ronaldo + Messi on the same team finally happening!
 
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mad99
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:00 pm

The news today showed barca fans crying, hilarious!

Shows his loyalty though. After 21 years at the team and a 21 month jail sentence for tax fraud he’s away to get more money.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:24 pm

mad99 wrote:
The news today showed barca fans crying, hilarious!

Shows his loyalty though. After 21 years at the team and a 21 month jail sentence for tax fraud he’s away to get more money.


During his time, the team has won almost 40% of their total trophy haul in their 122 year history, and he’s scored 671 goals in 778 games, accounting for 1 out of every 11 goals ever scored for Barcelona.

Hard to question his loyalty. He’s the greatest player of all time in the last few years of his career, why should he be taking a 50%+ pay cut because the club is poorly run?
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:32 pm

I'll believe it when I actually see him suit up for another team. How many times in recent years have they made it seem like he was done playing there? The same can be said about his relationship with the Argentina national team. One theory is that Barcelona are making this announcement in an attempt to get La Liga to cut them some slack with the financial rules. The thinking is that Messi's departure will hurt the league overall so the team wants to put pressure on the league and make it seem like its their fault that he left.

alberchico wrote:
I'm wondering if Manchester City are starting to regret their $100 million pound deal for Grealish just as Messi becomes available.

Sidebar: Keep in mind I'm a Villa fan, but there's something I just don't get about the EPL. Why are the "smaller" teams always unloading their best players to the big boy clubs? You have a once is a lifetime talent in Grealish and now you're sending him over to Man City so they can further solidify their stranglehold on the league? This basically tells me Villa are fine with never competing for the top position. It was pretty obvious last season they were mediocre when Grealish wasn't playing. This is like if the Bucks orchestrated a trade of Giannis to the Lakers!
 
jetwet1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:52 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
Sidebar: Keep in mind I'm a Villa fan, but there's something I just don't get about the EPL. Why are the "smaller" teams always unloading their best players to the big boy clubs? You have a once is a lifetime talent in Grealish and now you're sending him over to Man City so they can further solidify their stranglehold on the league? This basically tells me Villa are fine with never competing for the top position. It was pretty obvious last season they were mediocre when Grealish wasn't playing. This is like if the Bucks orchestrated a trade of Giannis to the Lakers!


Just to follow on from that, Aston Villa lost £99.2 million last season, before Covid gets blamed for that, only £36.1 million of that can be blamed on lost ticket revenue. The owners covered the loss (you have to applaud that) and allowed Villa to stay debt free, however, much like say Southampton, unless the owners are going to be digging in their pockets to keep the team debt free, players will have to be sold. Yes, if I was a Villa fan, I would be gutted to lose Grealish.

Mesi may get a surprise reality check, he is now 34, I don't see teams stepping up to pay what he wants at his age, as said above, PSG, the Manchester twins, Bayern, Arsenal and Spurs are really the only teams in a position to meet his pay demands and we all know there is no way Levi will do that at Spurs, Bayern are hamstrung by their ownership structure, Arsenal are not going to spend that type of money, so take a guess on the rest.
 
ltbewr
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Messi going to PSG

Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:49 pm

Football great Lionel Messi is leaving his long time club Barcelona to rival Paris Saint-German. Apparently a mix of greed, stupidity, financial factors for Barcelona led to what is likely the biggest move of a player in international football history. He gave a teary press conference, wishing he could have stayed with Barcelona and ended his career there with a huge send off that won't happen.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-tran ... ys-goodbye
 
jetwet1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:26 pm

PSG it is.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:24 pm

ltbewr wrote:
He gave a teary press conference, wishing he could have stayed with Barcelona

Nothing stopping him from staying there. Sure he would take a massive pay cut, but he’s loaded. If he was that keen to stay there, they would have worked something out.

Depending on which source you take, Messi’s net worth is 300 to 350 million euro. He is leaving a club that’s over a billion euro in debt. His salary demands were just impossible to maintain.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:27 pm

FGITD wrote:
Hard to question his loyalty.

I ‘ll be controversial, and disagree.

It’s hard to question his skills and work ethics… As for loyalty, if he were truly loyal he would stay with FCB and swallow a massive pay cut.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:29 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
mke717spotter wrote:
Mesi may get a surprise reality check, he is now 34, I don't see teams stepping up to pay what he wants at his age,

I am not sure about that. While he us getting up there in age, he is still very good.
Besides, the revenue in messi merchandise would probably be enough to cover salaries.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:40 pm

petertenthije wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Hard to question his loyalty.

I ‘ll be controversial, and disagree.

It’s hard to question his skills and work ethics… As for loyalty, if he were truly loyal he would stay with FCB and swallow a massive pay cut.


Almost without question the best to ever play the sport, has led his club through one of the most successful periods in any clubs history, and has been with them since he was a child. But then the club was horrifically mismanaged, wasteful and greedy, and now they can’t afford him. Barca ended up in this position on their own.

…so you want him to play for free, while other clubs are willing to actually pay him for his skills?

Loyalty swings both ways. The club let him down
 
alfa164
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:45 pm

FGITD wrote:
Almost without question the best to ever play the sport, has led his club through one of the most successful periods in any clubs history, and has been with them since he was a child. But then the club was horrifically mismanaged, wasteful and greedy, and now they can’t afford him. Barca ended up in this position on their own.
…so you want him to play for free, while other clubs are willing to actually pay him for his skills?
Loyalty swings both ways. The club let him down


This. What has happened at Barca is a tragedy. To be honest, I questioned the judgement of putting Messi and Neymar together; two diametrically opposed personalities should mix like oil and water. In fact, they got along brilliantly. Then Suarez came, and that trio became amazing.

But Barca management couldn't hold it together; first Neymar, then Suarez, and now Messi... and I blame it all on management - particularly the current management, who seem to have no respect for - or maybe no knowledge of - Barca's history. No team that I know of has ever held the admiration of so many people, worldwide... and no team has destroyed it so quickly.

It is a shame.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:29 pm

FCB have fallen victim to nothing but their own inability to match earnings with expenses, and continually failing to ignore the unique ownership structure of the club. Yes, they do have a generous sponsor in Qatar, but due to the ownership structure there are limits to how much they're willing to pay for the honour. Not so with e.g. PSG or any of the EPL clubs, which are generally owned either by a sovereign fund or an oligarch with a severely elevated sense of self-importance.

But even for the clubs owned by people or institutions with bottomless pockets, the Financial Fair Play rules will have a deep impact, as they will simply not be allowed to pump endless sums of money into the clubs to balance the budget, having blown the budget to smithereens by saddling it with grossly inflated transfer sums and player salaries.

wingman wrote:
... That's 3X higher than Patrick Mahomes' deal! His 50% pay cut would've paid him 50% more than Patrick.


I'm not debating that some sports people are grossly overpaid, best illustrated by the fact that even taking a 50% pay cut, Messi's salary would still represent 110% of disposable income for FCB.

However, I did have to google the Patrick fella to learn who and what he is, which speaks volumes. I dare say nobody in the world will have to google Messi or Ronaldo to learn who they are; they're household names. So it's disingenuous to compare them with those from more obscure sports with either limited or no global appeal, such as American football, regardless of how well payed they may be.

Then again, there is no sport on this planet which has the same global appeal as football, so comparisons will always be hard.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:03 pm

petertenthije wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
mke717spotter wrote:
Mesi may get a surprise reality check, he is now 34, I don't see teams stepping up to pay what he wants at his age,

I am not sure about that. While he us getting up there in age, he is still very good.
Besides, the revenue in messi merchandise would probably be enough to cover salaries.


First, I'm going to apologize, I'm on my phone and copy and pasting from multiple posts into one reply is a massive headache, so I will be posting a couple of replies

No doubt he is still very good, but the age will bring a drop in stamina.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:10 pm

B777LRF wrote:
But even for the clubs owned by people or institutions with bottomless pockets, the Financial Fair Play rules will have a deep impact, as they will simply not be allowed to pump endless sums of money into the clubs to balance the budget, having blown the budget to smithereens by saddling it with grossly inflated transfer sums and player salaries.



The financial fair play rules are a joke, Man City has shown the world season after season they will not follow them, they finally get held to account on them and then it gets thrown out.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:50 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
But even for the clubs owned by people or institutions with bottomless pockets, the Financial Fair Play rules will have a deep impact, as they will simply not be allowed to pump endless sums of money into the clubs to balance the budget, having blown the budget to smithereens by saddling it with grossly inflated transfer sums and player salaries.



The financial fair play rules are a joke, Man City has shown the world season after season they will not follow them, they finally get held to account on them and then it gets thrown out.


My breaking point with FFP came when even Arsene Wenger, who spent years advocating for those rules, came out and said they might as well get rid of them because they’re useless.

The financial powerhouse clubs just can’t be beat. I mean honestly, who outside of Chelsea or City looks to put up an honest fight in the premier league this season? I’m sure the usual suspects will give them a decent run but it’s hard to see anyone else winning the league

(Given my usual skill/lack thereof for predictions, I’m now going to assume neither will win the league)
 
wingman
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:48 pm

B777LRF wrote:
However, I did have to google the Patrick fella to learn who and what he is, which speaks volumes. I dare say nobody in the world will have to google Messi or Ronaldo to learn who they are; they're household names. So it's disingenuous to compare them with those from more obscure sports with either limited or no global appeal, such as American football, regardless of how well payed they may be.

Then again, there is no sport on this planet which has the same global appeal as football, so comparisons will always be hard.


This is about as Euro-snot face cringe-worthy as I've seen in a while. Football is the biggest sport in the world. American Football is second. Both are replete with professional athletes making staggering sums. It's "disingenuous" to compare the salaries of the highest paid athletes in the world across major professional leagues? OK chief, try not to hurt yourself looking something up on Google. Christ.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:16 pm

I like them both, but I think you’re going to have to keep going down that list a little further before you find American Football.

It’s easily beaten out by the likes of cricket, rugby, tennis, hockey, and quite a few others.

It’s understandable though. The likes of Messi and the rest play a global sport. Even with their club teams, they’ve played around the world…and of course with their countries, they’ve played on the biggest stages possible.

American football is extremely popular and they make a fortune, but they don’t have that reach. It’s arguably the most uniquely American sport-no one else plays it. a good number of other countries at least play baseball. Where else is there a major American football league?
 
wingman
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:04 pm

I thought comparing clubs and players with similar financial heft would've been appropriate. It was reading like a financial thread vs a viewership thread. That was silly of me. Should've gone with cricket. I’ll remember next time not to mention the NFL now that i have the approved list of global sports. Thanks FGITD.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:13 pm

I was addressing your abject horror at the fact that a lot of people around the world maybe haven’t heard of 1 specific player on a team that plays a sport only played in 1 country.

I agree though, it’s not a disingenuous comparison of 2 millionaires who made their money by throwing vs kicking a ball.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:01 am

American professional (NFL) football is a very different sport than soccer football in terms of finance. The players in the NFL are paid from a certain percentage negotiated between the players union and the owners from from TV with each of the 32 teams getting the same amount of it. Then there are revenues from ticket sales, concessions, parking, advertising in the stadiums almost guaranteeing all team owners a profit or a minimal loss. Our tax laws and subsidies for most arenas from taxpayers means more money for players and owners. The player rosters are much larger than in Soccer, so there is a balancing out of budgets so have enough quality players and just giving 50% of payroll budgets to one player. The NFL is structured so a while a team can have a long run of championships, a team can literally go from 'worst to first', but then lose it when players leave as can't afford to keep them. In American Baseball, there is a 'salary tax' where if spend over a certain budget, you are penalized with part of your revenues going to other teams doing poorly or have less local TV and other revenue.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:29 am

wingman wrote:
This is about as Euro-snot face cringe-worthy as I've seen in a while. Football is the biggest sport in the world. American Football is second. Both are replete with professional athletes making staggering sums. It's "disingenuous" to compare the salaries of the highest paid athletes in the world across major professional leagues? OK chief, try not to hurt yourself looking something up on Google. Christ.


Sorry for causing you a bit of butt hurt, but you're absolutely wrong in your ascertain American football is the second biggest sport in the world. It's pretty far from it, actually, and has about the same global appeal as the other uniquely US-centric sport called Baseball.

1. Football - 3BN followers
2: Cricket
3. Basketball
4. Field hockey
5. Tennis
6. Volleyball
7. Table tennis
8. Baseball
9. American football - 410MN followers
10. Golf

So it's a pretty fair assumption that your American football stars will, by and large, be unknown to the vast majority of people on this planet, perhaps with the exception of Tom Brady.

Calling it Euro-centric snot nosed is a bit of stretch; you'd be better off calling it Global-centric snot nosed.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:08 pm

I'm loyal to my company as long as I get paid. I can't afford a pay cut, and if another company offers me a similar salary I have now, while my current ones offers a pay cut, off I am !

OK so Messi can afford a pay cut, but still, you have to be motivated by something to continue training every day.
 
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Vio
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:33 pm

These sums of money, being paid to some athletes, are obscene. Football was (and is) always my favorite sport, but it's hard to watch for two reasons:

1. The one mentioned above. Obscene amount of money paid to these athletes.

2. Inequality and imbalance of teams. Really the "best team" is the richest team. Take for example the lineup of FC Barcelona a number of years ago, when I used to watch their games all the time: Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Rakitic, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Alba, Pique, etc. I mean those are the best players money could buy. I think Romanian sportscasters (where I'm from) used to call them "The Extraterrestrials", because they were all so damn amazing.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:00 pm

Vio wrote:
These sums of money, being paid to some athletes, are obscene. Football was (and is) always my favorite sport, but it's hard to watch for two reasons:

1. The one mentioned above. Obscene amount of money paid to these athletes.

2. Inequality and imbalance of teams. Really the "best team" is the richest team. Take for example the lineup of FC Barcelona a number of years ago, when I used to watch their games all the time: Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Rakitic, Iniesta, Busquets, Alves, Alba, Pique, etc. I mean those are the best players money could buy. I think Romanian sportscasters (where I'm from) used to call them "The Extraterrestrials", because they were all so damn amazing.


Agreed. A bit-better-than-squad-average player was sold off my favourite club to a Turkish side, selling price just short of 10M EUR. Which is cheap. What wasn't cheap is his salary. He's by no means a "name"; he's playing for "my" club and I hardly didn't know him. He's not a gifted wunderkind, but a bloke in his late 20s who's probably at his (not so impressive) peak right now. And yet, in "my" club he was making around 800K EUR a year, and will be making double that when he goes to Turkey. That's the salary of a CEO in a SME for a bloke kicking a ball around a few hours a week.

PS
The term coined for FCB was "Los Galacticos", which is not far off extraterrestrial :)
 
wingman
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:48 pm

Los Galácticos was the Real Madrid of the early 2000s - Roberto Carlos, Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo etc. That was Perez making his grand entrance to the game. Money was zero objection.
 
FGITD
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:55 pm

And if you look at what they paid for their Galacticos, it makes you realize how much more expensive the game has become. Absolutely average players being bought for more than Zidane or Beckham…craziness.

Back on topic-Messi was waving to the crowd at Le Bourget wearing a “ici c’est Paris” shirt so I think you can call this one settled…
 
JJJ
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:38 pm

petertenthije wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
He gave a teary press conference, wishing he could have stayed with Barcelona

Nothing stopping him from staying there. Sure he would take a massive pay cut, but he’s loaded. If he was that keen to stay there, they would have worked something out.


Nope. Spanish liga rules that you can't sign a new contract below 50% of your previous salary. That 50% was as far as both sides could go.

Why is there such a rule in place? I'm thinking it's precisely to avoid FFP shenanigans where you take a massive salary one year and zero the following one to keep the club compliant, but honestly have no idea.
 
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NOLAWildcat
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:33 pm

B777LRF wrote:
wingman wrote:
This is about as Euro-snot face cringe-worthy as I've seen in a while. Football is the biggest sport in the world. American Football is second. Both are replete with professional athletes making staggering sums. It's "disingenuous" to compare the salaries of the highest paid athletes in the world across major professional leagues? OK chief, try not to hurt yourself looking something up on Google. Christ.


Sorry for causing you a bit of butt hurt, but you're absolutely wrong in your ascertain American football is the second biggest sport in the world. It's pretty far from it, actually, and has about the same global appeal as the other uniquely US-centric sport called Baseball.

1. Football - 3BN followers
2: Cricket
3. Basketball
4. Field hockey
5. Tennis
6. Volleyball
7. Table tennis
8. Baseball
9. American football - 410MN followers
10. Golf

So it's a pretty fair assumption that your American football stars will, by and large, be unknown to the vast majority of people on this planet, perhaps with the exception of Tom Brady.

Calling it Euro-centric snot nosed is a bit of stretch; you'd be better off calling it Global-centric snot nosed.


I read his statement regarding the “second biggest sport in the world” as referencing the NFL in particular rather than the sport of American football as a whole. The NFL is the world’s wealthiest sports league with revenues roughly twice that of the world’s richest soccer league, the English Premiership. If you combine the top Euro leagues Into a whole, the NFL is indeed the second biggest sport (league) in the world on a revenue basis.

Regardless of how popular American football is on the worldwide scene (answer: not particularly), his greater point stands that the player salaries for top flight European soccer players are on a different level than those for top flight players in the world’s richest league.

Though much of that has more to do with how the American leagues somewhat ironically practice a far more socialist approach to team revenues than European leagues. Even in baseball, which unlike the NBA and NFL doesn’t have a hard salary cap, TV revenue sharing, the draft, and a luxury tax above a certain payroll level tend to spread talent around the league.

As an American and a soccer fan, I’ve always found it interesting how many Europeans are content with a structure that ensures only a handful of teams can afford the top players and have a shot at the championship at their top of their respective league structures. I enjoy watching Everton on the weekends, but never have had the zeal for European soccer the way I do for baseball or American football in part due to the fact that Everton’s chances of winning the Premiership are far less of the Super Bowl chances of my New Orleans Saints.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:46 am

The trio of Messi, Neymar and Mbappe will be too much for the other French clubs. PSG will have the best crosser in the World, the best dribbler in the World, and the best scorer in the World. To cap it all, on top of that, they'll still have Neymar and Mbappe! :wink2:
 
JJJ
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:24 pm

NOLAWildcat wrote:
.
As an American and a soccer fan, I’ve always found it interesting how many Europeans are content with a structure that ensures only a handful of teams can afford the top players and have a shot at the championship at their top of their respective league structures.


The balance of power between individual clubs and their respective leagues is very different.

The franchise system where teams move around looking for support is a totally alien concept over here.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:31 pm

The socialist way of things in the US is quite interesting I find, I don't get the draft though, removing basically all agency from players.
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:02 pm

NOLAWildcat wrote:

As an American and a soccer fan, I’ve always found it interesting how many Europeans are content with a structure that ensures only a handful of teams can afford the top players and have a shot at the championship at their top of their respective league structures. I enjoy watching Everton on the weekends, but never have had the zeal for European soccer the way I do for baseball or American football in part due to the fact that Everton’s chances of winning the Premiership are far less of the Super Bowl chances of my New Orleans Saints.


As a European we find it strange that North Americans are content with a league structure that allows teams or 'franchises' to move cities, with no promotion or relegation, a draft system every season ensuring owners who invest little into their franchise can still get great players and have little change in the teams they play each season. But I get the vibe for Americans, not all but most, professional sport is a fun day out, while in Europe/S.America it is more a religion come rain or shine.

To understand European/S. American football structures you need to understand the pyramid structure which, in theory, means your local club down the road, in the 12th level of the pyramid, has the sporting right to reach the Premier League if they got a super crop of players etc and play well enough (minus investments in ground improvements at certain specified levels) ahead of say Manchester United, if they, in turn, had a very poor season and got relegated. I.e. your mates down the road, don't have to wait for a franchise expansion, prove to investors a guaranteed amount of revenue to get backers etc etc and all that nonsense. Its sporting merit.

Some leagues in Europe have indeed become a bit dominated at the top, some do have structural issues with TV rights etc, but some actually have always been like that and it's kinda accepted/liked to a certain degree. I think back when Boavista won the Portuguese league in 2000-1, there was a lot, not all, of the press in Portugal that almost thought it was a scandal that it wasn't one of the big three of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. I personally on the other hand thought it was great for Boavista.

However, I don't think that is fair to say about the English Premier League. Domestic money is distributed on a mix of TV coverage and league position, overseas TV revenue is split equally amongst the 20 clubs. Sure clubs merchandise is their own. And if you look at the team's performances, sure over a 5 or 10 year period you would say Manchester City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United have been the leading teams, but stretch that over wider or different periods and different clubs rise and fall. Go back to the 1980's Everton were probably the second best team in the country, if not Europe. It's the fourth most successful side in England based on league championships and a big club with lots of potential. If the club builds under Moshiri then there is no reason why that can't happen again. Leicester came from nowhere and won the league in 2015-16 for the first time in their history. Liverpool only broke a 30-year hiatus of no league championship wins in 2020, and since the league started in 1885, the most one team has won the competition is Manchester United with 20 titles, who were relegated and only got back into the top flight of English football in 1976, so it has spread about. I've enjoyed a wave of success with my club Chelsea. Out of nowhere a billionaire took over us and turned us into the side we are today, I've enjoyed it. Go back 30 years ago and we were in the bottom reaches of the Premier League/2nd Division losing to the likes of Oldham Athletic. Now we are European champions. However, I also know it won't last forever. One day the owner will leave and we will drop out of the higher echelons of world football, and someone else, maybe Everton or Leicester will take our place. Blackburn Rovers did the same. Millionaire owner took over his local small-ish team and made them English Champions in 1994-95, for the third time in their history. They briefly dropped to the third tier in the pyramid in 2017. Brentford will kick off this season on Friday, playing in the top flight of English football for the first time since 1947. Fantastic for their supporters. And that is the point, the ownership and league structure allows this, and doesn't allow the likes of Stan Kroenke to sit back in a Texas ranch, invest nothing and let the loyal fans of Arsenal pay him dividends every season, while they pick up some great youngsters in the summer through a 'draft'. They want talent? They have to find it. If they don't try to move forwards, invest, they will fall back and relegation is a potential. There is not the automatic stabiliser for teams in Europe as there is in N. America who can hope for a good pick in a draft, know how much revenue is coming in in their closed shop of a league etc. It means the changes of who rises and falls in general, not always, is a lot longer in cycles.

Messi going to PSG is interesting. PSG, owned by Qatar have thrown money around and turned what was a fairly average French side into world heavyweights. Fair play. For the fans their time with Billions is now and they should enjoy it. When Qatar sell up they may well drop back behind the likes of Lyon, Monaco, Lille in French football. Teams rise and fall. For Real Madrid and Barcelona, their time at the top, not for the first time in history, is falling and Messi leaving sums it up.
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:20 pm

leader1 wrote:
PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

It makes me wonder what would've happened if this situation would've unfolded a few weeks earlier. Anyone else think Manchester City would've pivoted their attention towards Messi and then as a result Grealish is still wearing a Villa uniform?
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:02 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
leader1 wrote:
PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

It makes me wonder what would've happened if this situation would've unfolded a few weeks earlier. Anyone else think Manchester City would've pivoted their attention towards Messi and then as a result Grealish is still wearing a Villa uniform?


I do agree. Also, if Barcelona hadn't gone through the farce of saying he was signed up when he wasn't, would Chelsea have entered the frame? I.e. if it had all happened a lot earlier would the transfer window as a whole look a whole lot different as clubs priorities change? Would Aguero have signed for Barcelona? I think not.
 
leader1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:44 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
leader1 wrote:
PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

It makes me wonder what would've happened if this situation would've unfolded a few weeks earlier. Anyone else think Manchester City would've pivoted their attention towards Messi and then as a result Grealish is still wearing a Villa uniform?


I don't think so. Pep and Messi really didn't get along. It's one of the reasons he left Barcelona. Messi would bring more drama which ManCity don't need. And they're system works really well now. They're heavy favorites to win the EPL this season and go far in the CL, just like last year.
 
leader1
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:49 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
mke717spotter wrote:
leader1 wrote:
PSG. They're the only team that can really afford him. ManCity already spent too much on Grealish (crazy, in my opinion) and they're going after Kane. Not to mention that Pep and Messi weren't on good terms when the former was at Barcelona.

It makes me wonder what would've happened if this situation would've unfolded a few weeks earlier. Anyone else think Manchester City would've pivoted their attention towards Messi and then as a result Grealish is still wearing a Villa uniform?


I do agree. Also, if Barcelona hadn't gone through the farce of saying he was signed up when he wasn't, would Chelsea have entered the frame? I.e. if it had all happened a lot earlier would the transfer window as a whole look a whole lot different as clubs priorities change? Would Aguero have signed for Barcelona? I think not.


Aguero probably wouldn't have signed. He only went to Barcelona because he's good friends with Messi. However, I don't think Chelsea would have entered the fray. They've been locked on getting Lukaku back for a while and Messi really messes with their system. I didn't expect Messi to leave Barca, but PSG is the only team that would go out of their way to get him.
 
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NOLAWildcat
Posts: 88
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:09 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
NOLAWildcat wrote:

As an American and a soccer fan, I’ve always found it interesting how many Europeans are content with a structure that ensures only a handful of teams can afford the top players and have a shot at the championship at their top of their respective league structures. I enjoy watching Everton on the weekends, but never have had the zeal for European soccer the way I do for baseball or American football in part due to the fact that Everton’s chances of winning the Premiership are far less of the Super Bowl chances of my New Orleans Saints.


As a European we find it strange that North Americans are content with a league structure that allows teams or 'franchises' to move cities, with no promotion or relegation, a draft system every season ensuring owners who invest little into their franchise can still get great players and have little change in the teams they play each season. But I get the vibe for Americans, not all but most, professional sport is a fun day out, while in Europe/S.America it is more a religion come rain or shine.

To understand European/S. American football structures you need to understand the pyramid structure which, in theory, means your local club down the road, in the 12th level of the pyramid, has the sporting right to reach the Premier League if they got a super crop of players etc and play well enough (minus investments in ground improvements at certain specified levels) ahead of say Manchester United, if they, in turn, had a very poor season and got relegated. I.e. your mates down the road, don't have to wait for a franchise expansion, prove to investors a guaranteed amount of revenue to get backers etc etc and all that nonsense. Its sporting merit.

Some leagues in Europe have indeed become a bit dominated at the top, some do have structural issues with TV rights etc, but some actually have always been like that and it's kinda accepted/liked to a certain degree. I think back when Boavista won the Portuguese league in 2000-1, there was a lot, not all, of the press in Portugal that almost thought it was a scandal that it wasn't one of the big three of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. I personally on the other hand thought it was great for Boavista.

However, I don't think that is fair to say about the English Premier League. Domestic money is distributed on a mix of TV coverage and league position, overseas TV revenue is split equally amongst the 20 clubs. Sure clubs merchandise is their own. And if you look at the team's performances, sure over a 5 or 10 year period you would say Manchester City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United have been the leading teams, but stretch that over wider or different periods and different clubs rise and fall. Go back to the 1980's Everton were probably the second best team in the country, if not Europe. It's the fourth most successful side in England based on league championships and a big club with lots of potential. If the club builds under Moshiri then there is no reason why that can't happen again. Leicester came from nowhere and won the league in 2015-16 for the first time in their history. Liverpool only broke a 30-year hiatus of no league championship wins in 2020, and since the league started in 1885, the most one team has won the competition is Manchester United with 20 titles, who were relegated and only got back into the top flight of English football in 1976, so it has spread about. I've enjoyed a wave of success with my club Chelsea. Out of nowhere a billionaire took over us and turned us into the side we are today, I've enjoyed it. Go back 30 years ago and we were in the bottom reaches of the Premier League/2nd Division losing to the likes of Oldham Athletic. Now we are European champions. However, I also know it won't last forever. One day the owner will leave and we will drop out of the higher echelons of world football, and someone else, maybe Everton or Leicester will take our place. Blackburn Rovers did the same. Millionaire owner took over his local small-ish team and made them English Champions in 1994-95, for the third time in their history. They briefly dropped to the third tier in the pyramid in 2017. Brentford will kick off this season on Friday, playing in the top flight of English football for the first time since 1947. Fantastic for their supporters. And that is the point, the ownership and league structure allows this, and doesn't allow the likes of Stan Kroenke to sit back in a Texas ranch, invest nothing and let the loyal fans of Arsenal pay him dividends every season, while they pick up some great youngsters in the summer through a 'draft'. They want talent? They have to find it. If they don't try to move forwards, invest, they will fall back and relegation is a potential. There is not the automatic stabiliser for teams in Europe as there is in N. America who can hope for a good pick in a draft, know how much revenue is coming in in their closed shop of a league etc. It means the changes of who rises and falls in general, not always, is a lot longer in cycles.

Messi going to PSG is interesting. PSG, owned by Qatar have thrown money around and turned what was a fairly average French side into world heavyweights. Fair play. For the fans their time with Billions is now and they should enjoy it. When Qatar sell up they may well drop back behind the likes of Lyon, Monaco, Lille in French football. Teams rise and fall. For Real Madrid and Barcelona, their time at the top, not for the first time in history, is falling and Messi leaving sums it up.


Oh, trust me there are a lot of North American fans who aren’t content with the existing pro sports structure on this side of the pond. The constant relocation threats are a particular thorn in my side The Oakland A’s baseball team down the road from me has been using the threat of move to Las Vegas to push the city into helping partially fund a housing-retail development with a new downtown stadium at its center. I’m actually in support of this particular deal as it’s patterned off a similar agreement in nearby San Francisco with their baseball club that has been a win-win for club and city, but the way the A’s ownership has used the Vegas move threat to push the stadium deal over the top is disgraceful. My passion for the NFL and to a lesser extent MLB has cooled considerably over the last decade due to many of the issues you brought up.

The idea of promotion-relegation applied to the US (particularly baseball and soccer) is an interesting one. I definitely see the appeal of the local team down the road rising through the pyramid to ultimately play in the Super Bowl or the World Series with the right investments and talent scouting. Unfortunately, It’ll never happen given the massive amounts of money paid for these franchises by their owners and the massive guaranteed TV revenues the fixed league membership affords, but its adoption would sure help force some of the penny-pinching owners in American pro sports who appear more content to collect their share of the TV revenue rather than build a winner to spend to stay in the higher league. I’m a season ticket holder for the local MLS soccer club here (the San Jose Earthquakes)—they’re owned by the same guy that owns the Oakland A’s and both squads have some of the lowest payrolls in their respective leagues. But while the A’s have a good front office that keeps them competitive most years despite being outspent by large margins by their rivals, the soccer team is consistently horrid and would have long ago been relegated in a pro-Rel system. I’d think the threat of relegation would have long ago forced ownership to spend more. That said, I’m not sure if a national pro soccer league could have been successful in the US with a pro-rel system. MLS is growing and is reasonably healthy these days after a shaky start, but I doubt it would have survived if it was pro-rel given the fact that the concept is largely alien to the average American.

Lastly, your comment regarding Americans not taking their pro sports as seriously as Europeans do theirs is true in many cities. There are a few exceptions, like the Green Bay Packers, Buffalo Bills, and New Orleans Saints in the NFL where the city’s mood hinges on how well its local team is doing, but most franchises have a diehard core of fans and a larger base of less committed, somewhat fair-weather fans with some bandwagon folks on the edge. The fact that the teams have been run as businesses owned by individuals or corporations is a big reason for this view, but you also need to understand that college sports (which in the case of football and basketball is nearly professional at their highest levels at this point) is where a good chunk of Americans place that sports fanaticism you alluded to Europeans.

College sports’ appeal is somewhat more regional than that of the pro leagues with the hotspots being the South and Midwest in football and the East Coast and Midwest in basketball, but it’s a major part of cultural life in some form in most of America outside of NYC, LA, the Bay Area, and Boston. In many places, college football or basketball is viewed as a secular religion. Where I grew up in Louisiana, the New Orleans area lived and died with the NFL’s Saints on Sundays in the fall. But the whole state follows Louisiana State University’s sports teams throughout the year, with its college football team’s games being a communal experience among residents.

In some areas, particularly rural parts of the US, high school football and basketball is also very popular. I’d argue that high school and college football (and to a lesser extent basketball) occupy the same niche in much of America as the local 2nd and 3rd tier soccer teams do in Europe.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:30 am

There is a form of 'relegation' in American major professional sports. Poorer performing teams gets the earliest 'draft' picks of players from eligible college or certain minor league players to limit the best teams from always getting the best players. Especially with the NFL part of each teams schedule is based on their performance the previous year, poorer performing teams play against teams with similar poorer performance the previous year, better performing teams go against other better performing teams.
North America's Major League Soccer and related minor league has strict budgets on players salaries, limits movement between teams, relies on a draft to make sure no one team become overly dominate. MLS teams usually have to use American Football stadiums, a few do have their own dedicated stadiums (NY-NJ Red Bulls) and often have strict limits as to other uses (like music shows) to assure quality of the playing field.
 
Derico
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:57 am

I don't care about European football, I don't care about cricket, rugby, or baseball, or American football or any sport tournaments outside my country. That does not mean I don't appreciate them as sports in their own right. And I may watch a game on a rare occasion if there is some particular reason for me to do so. The nationality of the players involved is not one of those reasons.

I can understand people in areas of the world with no viable or with just a rudimentary local league, such as in Africa, many parts of Asia, to become fans of teams from the European leagues like Barcelona, Manchester, Inter, Juventus, Real, Chelsea, and now PSG. Or to root for Brazil, or Italy, or France or Argentina in the world cup when their country cannot take part. But for those of us who live or have lived in places with a competitive league and a local team in it (sure, not a league up to the level of the big five in Europe, but developed enough), to follow any team that you will never see in person, that will never do anything for your city, is just strange. I have no emotional investment watching a Champions League game, or an NBA game. What's the point then? Surely I don't care about the sports in question enough. I do love international matches and tournaments. Though I think the World Cup has its days numbered. Once a superleague of some form does form in Europe, it will be the end of the World Cup. Just like there is no real baskeball international competition that commands world attention, that is 100% the fault of the NBA, and they actually like it that way. Which is why basketball will never remotely come close to touching football. It's more likely that football will come down to basketball's level, as a diminished sport, once the World Cup disappears in 30 years or so.

Messi at PSG... Again, not very interested (and I never watched Messi play), but I think I will watch his debut game whenever that happens. Because it is some type of once in a lifetime thing, of the greatest player and most mediatic figure in world sport going to another team. I also will probably watch if and when he has to return to play against Barcelona in an official match. But that's about it really.
 
Olddog
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Re: Messi going to PSG

Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:01 pm

The funniest part is that PSG recruited 5 players, including Messi that were free. You have to wonder if some clubs were sleeping.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Messi to leave FC Barcelona

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:26 pm

B777LRF wrote:
However, I did have to google the Patrick fella to learn who and what he is, which speaks volumes. I dare say nobody in the world will have to google Messi or Ronaldo to learn who they are; they're household names. So it's disingenuous to compare them with those from more obscure sports with either limited or no global appeal, such as American football, regardless of how well payed they may be.

Then again, there is no sport on this planet which has the same global appeal as football, so comparisons will always be hard.

It is pretty odd that 'world football' is run on a capitalist basis while NFL football looks socialist by comparison, with a league wide salary cap so no one team can spend its way to the top and players getting approximately half the revenues. Little known fact is that each 'guaranteed' salary in the NFL has to be put into trust when the contract is signed so the owners can't sign players to sums they can't afford.

That appeal you speak of can go away quickly if the championships keep getting passed back and forth between the same extremely rich enterprises with the rest having no serious chance of competing.

eurotrader85 wrote:
And that is the point, the ownership and league structure allows this, and doesn't allow the likes of Stan Kroenke to sit back in a Texas ranch, invest nothing and let the loyal fans of Arsenal pay him dividends every season, while they pick up some great youngsters in the summer through a 'draft'. They want talent? They have to find it. If they don't try to move forwards, invest, they will fall back and relegation is a potential. There is not the automatic stabiliser for teams in Europe as there is in N. America who can hope for a good pick in a draft, know how much revenue is coming in in their closed shop of a league etc. It means the changes of who rises and falls in general, not always, is a lot longer in cycles.

Messi going to PSG is interesting. PSG, owned by Qatar have thrown money around and turned what was a fairly average French side into world heavyweights. Fair play. For the fans their time with Billions is now and they should enjoy it. When Qatar sell up they may well drop back behind the likes of Lyon, Monaco, Lille in French football. Teams rise and fall. For Real Madrid and Barcelona, their time at the top, not for the first time in history, is falling and Messi leaving sums it up.

Fair play that a foreign nation-state can use its sovereign wealth to buy its way to the top? Doubt the fans of Lyon, Monaco or Lille feel that it's fair play. You are suggesting they are going to sell it fairly soon, i.e. do a pump and dump. This doesn't sound consistent with earning the religious faith of the fan base.

Aesma wrote:
The socialist way of things in the US is quite interesting I find, I don't get the draft though, removing basically all agency from players.

And yet it is collectively bargained, so the players as a whole see the value in it enough to not demand its removal, at least they don't prioritize it above other things they want via collective bargaining.

The implementation of the draft is that the worst team from the previous season drafts first, and so on till the best team drafts last. This means that the poor get richer rather than the free market approach where the richest can just buy the best talent. The players see that this improves competition across the league and thus increases interest in the league which enriches them all.

Players do have agency in that this process only applies to their first contract. limited to five years for the first 32 players drafted and four years for the rest. It at least gives them the chance to look forward to the opportunity for them to have a free market, but the salary cap means that not many teams have enough free cap space to sign the highest priced free agents so there's some natural limitations built into the system. Also a lot of players don't last four years due to injuries or lack of talent or development of the talent they have, so they may not make it to that second contract. If they do and they have a decent amount of talent they can make a LOT of money though.

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