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Aaron747
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:36 am

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
This past weekend, one police officer was killed and another critically wounded in Chicago. They had pulled over a vehicle with three occupants. French, 29, and her partner — who were part of a three-officer car assigned to the Community Safety Team — were shot during a traffic stop after 9 p.m. at 63rd Street and Bell Avenue. Two brothers, Emonte Morgan, 21 and Eric Morgan have been charged with murder.

The first officer to be shot was French's partner that was hit three times. When French came to his aid, she was shot in the head by Emonte Morgan. Both have been apprehended and are due in court today.

Sad all around, and for so many reasons.

-Emonte was a convicted felon, and could not posses a firearm.
-They had obtained the gun from a straw purchaser in Indiana.
Jamal Danzy is charged with purchasing the gun from a licensed Hammond gun dealer, knowingly transferring a firearm to an out-of-state resident and knowingly disposing of a firearm to a convicted felon, Brown said in the press conference.
Link

-Emonte had no respect for life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpNvVW6DN84

These tragedies will continue until an effort is made to clean up and go after the criminals, not enacting more laws that are useless.

When the Mayor of Chicago went to the hospital, the officers turned their backs.


A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Some cops have no respect for life, either. Kneeling on a suspect's back until he dies, bursting into an apartment and opening fire because, pulling someone over and opening fire because. How are those different? Killing is killing.


The point regarding hypocrisy on gun show loopholes is well taken, but the diversion to bad cops is completely needless and a strawman. There is no evidence the cops targeted here had no respect for life or other citizens. Whatsoever.
 
Virtual737
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You need to learn that prefatory clauses don’t condition the operative part of the amendment. Says the SCOTUS, btw, agrees it is an individual right. Post #97 posits that the 2A permits murder is merely an exercise under the amendment. Not true.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitutio ... mendment-2


Not really the Supreme Court's finest hour in my opinion.

Interpretation is everything when it comes to law and getting it right is critical to set precedent. The context of when a law is formulated should be included within that interpretation. James Madison et al provided more than just a simple hint as to the intent of the law when it was written, yet in 2008 those who should possess more wisdom decide that the removal of ~48% of the working is needed to clarify it.

I'll repeat that once more. SCOTUS decided that the intent of the 2nd Amendment was made clearer by removing 48% of it. It was an amendment to the amendment, not a clarification, regardless of which side of the fence you sit.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
This past weekend, one police officer was killed and another critically wounded in Chicago. They had pulled over a vehicle with three occupants. French, 29, and her partner — who were part of a three-officer car assigned to the Community Safety Team — were shot during a traffic stop after 9 p.m. at 63rd Street and Bell Avenue. Two brothers, Emonte Morgan, 21 and Eric Morgan have been charged with murder.

The first officer to be shot was French's partner that was hit three times. When French came to his aid, she was shot in the head by Emonte Morgan. Both have been apprehended and are due in court today.

Sad all around, and for so many reasons.

-Emonte was a convicted felon, and could not posses a firearm.
-They had obtained the gun from a straw purchaser in Indiana.

-Emonte had no respect for life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpNvVW6DN84

These tragedies will continue until an effort is made to clean up and go after the criminals, not enacting more laws that are useless.

When the Mayor of Chicago went to the hospital, the officers turned their backs.


A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Some cops have no respect for life, either. Kneeling on a suspect's back until he dies, bursting into an apartment and opening fire because, pulling someone over and opening fire because. How are those different? Killing is killing.


The point regarding hypocrisy on gun show loopholes is well taken, but the diversion to bad cops is completely needless and a strawman. There is no evidence the cops targeted here had no respect for life or other citizens. Whatsoever.


Not these particular cops, no.

I am curious, why so many incidents in the MSP area?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:56 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Some cops have no respect for life, either. Kneeling on a suspect's back until he dies, bursting into an apartment and opening fire because, pulling someone over and opening fire because. How are those different? Killing is killing.


The point regarding hypocrisy on gun show loopholes is well taken, but the diversion to bad cops is completely needless and a strawman. There is no evidence the cops targeted here had no respect for life or other citizens. Whatsoever.


Not these particular cops, no.

I am curious, why so many incidents in the MSP area?


Large city police departments have a lot of profiling/mistreatment claims in general. MSP is not that special compared to ATL, Chitown or NYC.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:19 pm

People wrongly focus on guns, and it is so crazy. Several wealthy, successful professionals I know own handguns. The rich suburbs in my area are somewhat conservative and are filled with guns. There is zero gun crime in those areas.

It’s not about guns. It is about allowing the police to fully enforce the laws. In 2018, Illinois Gov Bruce Rattner proposed reinstating the death penalty in Illinois for cop killers. I think that is a good first step to bring the community forward. Of course, I would expand the list of death penalty-eligible crimes. Chicago can become a zero-crime city that is safe at 2AM. Police can easily deliver that, if they are allowed to do their jobs. Or if you want to live in a hellhole, go ahead and prevent police from doing their jobs.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:25 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
People wrongly focus on guns, and it is so crazy. Several wealthy, successful professionals I know own handguns. The rich suburbs in my area are somewhat conservative and are filled with guns. There is zero gun crime in those areas.

It’s not about guns. It is about allowing the police to fully enforce the laws. In 2018, Illinois Gov Bruce Rattner proposed reinstating the death penalty in Illinois for cop killers. I think that is a good first step to bring the community forward. Of course, I would expand the list of death penalty-eligible crimes. Chicago can become a zero-crime city that is safe at 2AM. Police can easily deliver that, if they are allowed to do their jobs. Or if you want to live in a hellhole, go ahead and prevent police from doing their jobs.


You are right guns are not the central issue but policing is not the long-term solution either. The answer is in the difference between your first and second paragraphs: crime is low in rich suburbs because people have stability in their lives. Poverty does not allow for that.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:53 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
People wrongly focus on guns, and it is so crazy. Several wealthy, successful professionals I know own handguns. The rich suburbs in my area are somewhat conservative and are filled with guns. There is zero gun crime in those areas.

It’s not about guns.


Over the past few days we've heard of a mother who was shot and killed by her toddler, and a 3-year old girl who was shot and killed by a 5-year old boy.

But it's not about the guns .....
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:04 pm

B777LRF wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
People wrongly focus on guns, and it is so crazy. Several wealthy, successful professionals I know own handguns. The rich suburbs in my area are somewhat conservative and are filled with guns. There is zero gun crime in those areas.

It’s not about guns.


Over the past few days we've heard of a mother who was shot and killed by her toddler, and a 3-year old girl who was shot and killed by a 5-year old boy.

But it's not about the guns .....


The background rate of accidental firearm deaths and (to a lesser extent) suicides is definitely about guns. Guns can be dangerous. I do not like guns and do not have any around.

But guns do not explain why crime and violence are high in certain areas versus others. The reason for that is horribly behaved people. To deal with horrible behavior problems, we need a full range of police capability to battle crime, and win.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:10 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
But guns do not explain why crime and violence are high in certain areas versus others. The reason for that is horribly behaved people. To deal with horrible behavior problems, we need a full range of police capability to battle crime, and win.


You're right in your first ascertain (guns don't explain crime) and 100% dead wrong on the second. By introducing heavier policing and heavier sentencing, you're merely treating the symptoms and not the disease. And the disease, in this case, is the way the US has decided a society should be run.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
People wrongly focus on guns, and it is so crazy. Several wealthy, successful professionals I know own handguns. The rich suburbs in my area are somewhat conservative and are filled with guns. There is zero gun crime in those areas.

It’s not about guns.


Over the past few days we've heard of a mother who was shot and killed by her toddler, and a 3-year old girl who was shot and killed by a 5-year old boy.

But it's not about the guns .....


Correct, not about firearms, it’s about requiring responsible citizens to govern the,selves and those in their charge. I’m pretty certain the toddler didn’t get his grandma to visit the local gun store as a straw buyer or head off to the gun show and buy it there. Leave Roundup around and the toddler could kill himself.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:06 pm

B777LRF wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
But guns do not explain why crime and violence are high in certain areas versus others. The reason for that is horribly behaved people. To deal with horrible behavior problems, we need a full range of police capability to battle crime, and win.


You're right in your first ascertain (guns don't explain crime) and 100% dead wrong on the second. By introducing heavier policing and heavier sentencing, you're merely treating the symptoms and not the disease. And the disease, in this case, is the way the US has decided a society should be run.


It's not just the US. Every country controls violence. Moscow doesn't have street crime. Beijing doesn't have street crime. This is extremely basic.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:10 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
But guns do not explain why crime and violence are high in certain areas versus others. The reason for that is horribly behaved people. To deal with horrible behavior problems, we need a full range of police capability to battle crime, and win.


You're right in your first ascertain (guns don't explain crime) and 100% dead wrong on the second. By introducing heavier policing and heavier sentencing, you're merely treating the symptoms and not the disease. And the disease, in this case, is the way the US has decided a society should be run.


It's not just the US. Every country controls violence. Moscow doesn't have street crime. Beijing doesn't have street crime. This is extremely basic.


Kinda oversimplified, no? Policing in the manner of Russia or the PRC would require abandoning half our constitutional rights or more. And where there is crime in those countries the source is the same - poverty and its ills. This is just as basic.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:07 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Correct, not about firearms, it’s about requiring responsible citizens to govern the,selves and those in their charge. I’m pretty certain the toddler didn’t get his grandma to visit the local gun store as a straw buyer or head off to the gun show and buy it there. Leave Roundup around and the toddler could kill himself.


History has shown, more times than anyone can count, that the society you're portraying simply don't exist, and probably never will. There will always be a fairly large number of individuals who are incapable of being responsible, and the US is certainly not shy of it's fair share. The vast majority of the world, including every "civilised" country, recognises this, and makes gun ownership extremely restrictive.

As for comparing a weed killer with a people killer, I simply despair.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:10 am

LCDFlight wrote:
It's not just the US. Every country controls violence. Moscow doesn't have street crime. Beijing doesn't have street crime. This is extremely basic.


The US, by and large, does not control violence. It promotes it.

When you have a situation where 13-year olds are free to watch movies where heads and arms are blown clean off for 2 hours, but you have to be 18 to watch a movie where a female nipple is visible for a second, you have a problem. An extremely basic one.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:53 am

B777LRF wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Correct, not about firearms, it’s about requiring responsible citizens to govern the,selves and those in their charge. I’m pretty certain the toddler didn’t get his grandma to visit the local gun store as a straw buyer or head off to the gun show and buy it there. Leave Roundup around and the toddler could kill himself.


History has shown, more times than anyone can count, that the society you're portraying simply don't exist, and probably never will. There will always be a fairly large number of individuals who are incapable of being responsible, and the US is certainly not shy of it's fair share. The vast majority of the world, including every "civilised" country, recognises this, and makes gun ownership extremely restrictive.

As for comparing a weed killer with a people killer, I simply despair.


So, you are idea is to design a society safe for irresponsible idiots who must be controlled by their betters, which means you. Millions of Americans, the vast majority intact, own and responsibly control all sorts of hazardous items including guns. I’m happy with that, but you would have us believe only government minders can maintain order.
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:14 am

seb146 wrote:

A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Straw purchases are completely different from the so-called gun show loophole. Once again, please do some research before you start typing and making yourself look foolish.
Last edited by johns624 on Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So, you are idea is to design a society safe for irresponsible idiots who must be controlled by their betters, which means you. Millions of Americans, the vast majority intact, own and responsibly control all sorts of hazardous items including guns. I’m happy with that, but you would have us believe only government minders can maintain order.


It may have escaped your attention, but "the government" is already tasked with the job of maintaining order. Indirectly via laws, statues and rules, and directly via law enforcement. Most things in life is regulated in one way or another; a license to operate equipment, rules governing where and how fast you may drive, rules controlling what a workplace must look like and what it's not allowed to contain, laws covering what is allowed to put in the food and drinks we consume, etc. etc. Most people are happy with that, it's only when it comes to guns and Americans that no rules, or close to no rules, should exceptionally be the default option.

I*m not claiming to be anyone's better, and have absolutely no intention of controlling anyone - least of all Americans. I'm merely advocating for regulating an area which brings far, far more bad than good things to the table.

You seem to think that your affinity for a penis extender is more important than the life of a toddler, and I vehemently disagree with that. It's a sad fact of life that to a very large extent, we have to accommodate the lowest common denominator in order to have a society which works for the vast majority, and when it comes to private individuals owning guns, the common denominator is very low indeed.

PS
A responsible gun owner only maintains that status until he or she commits a crime using said gun. And that can happen to anyone.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:40 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Straw purchases are completely different from the so-called gun show loophole. Once again, please do some research before you start typing and making yourself look foolish.


One person says "straw purchase" another says "private sale".

BTW, let's watch the name calling.
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

A couple of things jump out:

People have been complaining about straw purchases (or "gun show loophole" or "private sale loophole") for a very long time. Why be outraged over this person exercizing their Second Amendment rights? Isn't that what we constantly hear when there is a mass shooting? Don't touch any gun laws?

Straw purchases are completely different from the so-called gun show loophole. Once again, please do some research before you start typing and making yourself look foolish.


One person says "straw purchase" another says "private sale".

BTW, let's watch the name calling.
Once again, they are two entirely different things. A straw purchase involves buying from a Federally licensed dealer. A private sale is between two, unlicensed individuals. I didn't call you any names. I merely said that your constant misrepresentation of the laws and facts make you look foolish.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:25 pm

B777LRF wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So, you are idea is to design a society safe for irresponsible idiots who must be controlled by their betters, which means you. Millions of Americans, the vast majority intact, own and responsibly control all sorts of hazardous items including guns. I’m happy with that, but you would have us believe only government minders can maintain order.


It may have escaped your attention, but "the government" is already tasked with the job of maintaining order. Indirectly via laws, statues and rules, and directly via law enforcement. Most things in life is regulated in one way or another; a license to operate equipment, rules governing where and how fast you may drive, rules controlling what a workplace must look like and what it's not allowed to contain, laws covering what is allowed to put in the food and drinks we consume, etc. etc. Most people are happy with that, it's only when it comes to guns and Americans that no rules, or close to no rules, should exceptionally be the default option.

I*m not claiming to be anyone's better, and have absolutely no intention of controlling anyone - least of all Americans. I'm merely advocating for regulating an area which brings far, far more bad than good things to the table.

You seem to think that your affinity for a penis extender is more important than the life of a toddler, and I vehemently disagree with that. It's a sad fact of life that to a very large extent, we have to accommodate the lowest common denominator in order to have a society which works for the vast majority, and when it comes to private individuals owning guns, the common denominator is very low indeed.

PS
A responsible gun owner only maintains that status until he or she commits a crime using said gun. And that can happen to anyone.


If you all got is insults, you’re lost. It does appear insults from one point of view are acceptable, but in the opposite, not so acceptable.

As to governmental or social regulations, they’re only as good as the willingness of citizens to obey them and comply. Murder is against the law, but government doesn’t “regulate” or stop murders, they just sanction the felons. Self-government is just that—the discipline and willingness of citizens to control their behavior. That concept disappeared years ago.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you all got is insults, you’re lost. It does appear insults from one point of view are acceptable, but in the opposite, not so acceptable.

As to governmental or social regulations, they’re only as good as the willingness of citizens to obey them and comply. Murder is against the law, but government doesn’t “regulate” or stop murders, they just sanction the felons. Self-government is just that—the discipline and willingness of citizens to control their behavior. That concept disappeared years ago.


No insult intended, merely a healthy dose of sarcasm. But we've finally arrived at something we can both agree on, namely that the discipline and willingness to control behaviour does not exist amongst the gen. pop. to the extent, self-governing is an option. I'm not entirely sure such a concept ever existed though; history is littered with examples of how self-governing quickly leads to anarchy and perpetual fighting between competing strong men.

It is for this exact reason an instrument such as a gun or rifle, generally speaking, cannot be trusted in the hands of the gen. pop. without almost draconian restrictions. But if you chose to do so and, for effect, carry it out in a society promoting and celebrating violence, you end up exactly where the US is today.
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:06 pm

B777LRF wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If you all got is insults, you’re lost. It does appear insults from one point of view are acceptable, but in the opposite, not so acceptable.

As to governmental or social regulations, they’re only as good as the willingness of citizens to obey them and comply. Murder is against the law, but government doesn’t “regulate” or stop murders, they just sanction the felons. Self-government is just that—the discipline and willingness of citizens to control their behavior. That concept disappeared years ago.


No insult intended, merely a healthy dose of sarcasm. But we've finally arrived at something we can both agree on, namely that the discipline and willingness to control behaviour does not exist amongst the gen. pop. to the extent, self-governing is an option. I'm not entirely sure such a concept ever existed though; history is littered with examples of how self-governing quickly leads to anarchy and perpetual fighting between competing strong men.

It is for this exact reason an instrument such as a gun or rifle, generally speaking, cannot be trusted in the hands of the gen. pop. without almost draconian restrictions. But if you chose to do so and, for effect, carry it out in a society promoting and celebrating violence, you end up exactly where the US is today.
I think you're missing his point. Most of this country is self governing. Think about it. My city has almost 100K residents and about 150 police officers. Subtract command officers, people on vacation and those off injured. Then subtract those in special bureaus or monitoring the jail. After you've done that, divide the remainder by three, because there are three shifts. There's probably 25-30 officers (at most) patrolling at any time. Yet, they keep the peace in a 36 square mile city with 100,000 and many more commuters. How, because people are self policing and self governing. If people didn't let the police have authority, they wouldn't. It's just like US money is worth something, because the people say it's worth something. It's paper and isn't on the gold standard. It's public confidence.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:22 am

johns624 wrote:
I think you're missing his point. Most of this country is self governing. Think about it. My city has almost 100K residents and about 150 police officers. Subtract command officers, people on vacation and those off injured. Then subtract those in special bureaus or monitoring the jail. After you've done that, divide the remainder by three, because there are three shifts. There's probably 25-30 officers (at most) patrolling at any time. Yet, they keep the peace in a 36 square mile city with 100,000 and many more commuters. How, because people are self policing and self governing. If people didn't let the police have authority, they wouldn't. It's just like US money is worth something, because the people say it's worth something. It's paper and isn't on the gold standard. It's public confidence.

Factor in weekends, sick/vacation days, training classes, and it probably comes out to 15-20, if that.
 
MaverickM11
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
OA412 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Let's ban all car drivers, too. After all, they're all law abiding, until they aren't. There are well over 70 million gun owners in the US. How many crimes are committed by them? Very few. Now, if you want to go after the drug and street gangs, be my guest.

Except that a car's main purpose is transportation. That it can cause death either accidentally or intentionally is secondary to its primary purpose. The car was invented as a passenger conveyance, not a deadly weapon. A gun has no purpose other than to cause death. That is its sole purpose.

I respectfully disagree. An armed society is a polite society.

Lightsaber

Curious if this applies to Afghanistan now? Or before? When does it get polite?
 
JJJ
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:00 am

johns624 wrote:
It's public confidence.


That's not the same as self governance.

How much of that confidence comes from knowing there's a punishing authority that will catch and punish you if you break the rules.

Back to the relevant issue, why are straw purchases so prevalent? Because there are so many get out holes it's impossible to enforce.

Give law enforcement proper tools and you'll see straw purchases down to a minimum. Registration and control of private sales are the bare minimum.
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:51 pm

JJJ wrote:

Back to the relevant issue, why are straw purchases so prevalent? Because there are so many get out holes it's impossible to enforce.
I don't even know what this means. Try again.
 
JJJ
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Back to the relevant issue, why are straw purchases so prevalent? Because there are so many get out holes it's impossible to enforce.
I don't even know what this means. Try again.


Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Back to the relevant issue, why are straw purchases so prevalent? Because there are so many get out holes it's impossible to enforce.
I don't even know what this means. Try again.


Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.

So then, what do you propose to remedy it? I've stopped lots of straw sales. The problem is that it's subjective and easier to see if you have been selling guns for awhile.
 
JJJ
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:11 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't even know what this means. Try again.


Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.

So then, what do you propose to remedy it? I've stopped lots of straw sales. The problem is that it's subjective and easier to see if you have been selling guns for awhile.


See the original post you quoted.

How many attentive dealers out there Vs those who don't care as long as the cash keeps flowing? (the ones near the Mex border, named ones in Indiana, etc.)
 
johns624
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:08 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.

So then, what do you propose to remedy it? I've stopped lots of straw sales. The problem is that it's subjective and easier to see if you have been selling guns for awhile.


See the original post you quoted.

How many attentive dealers out there Vs those who don't care as long as the cash keeps flowing? (the ones near the Mex border, named ones in Indiana, etc.)
The ATF keeps track of dealers who have too many "time from sale to crime" sales. Why they don't do anything about it is beyond me. Like many others have said, there's plenty of current laws that aren't enforced. Adding new ones does nothing but make officials feel good because they've "done something".
 
extender
Topic Author
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:23 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Back to the relevant issue, why are straw purchases so prevalent? Because there are so many get out holes it's impossible to enforce.
I don't even know what this means. Try again.


Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.


Link? Proof?
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:28 pm

extender wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't even know what this means. Try again.


Straw purchasing happens on a massive scale yet it flies under LE radar and when caught not even prosecuted because it's too easy to walk free or just get a slap in the wrist.


Link? Proof?
It depends. Trying to prosecute someone who tries to straw purchase is hard. Like I said, it's experience, a gut feeling or stupidity on the purchaser's part. Prosecuting someone after the gun is recovered from a felon should be relatively easy.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4204
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:13 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So then, what do you propose to remedy it? I've stopped lots of straw sales. The problem is that it's subjective and easier to see if you have been selling guns for awhile.


See the original post you quoted.

How many attentive dealers out there Vs those who don't care as long as the cash keeps flowing? (the ones near the Mex border, named ones in Indiana, etc.)
The ATF keeps track of dealers who have too many "time from sale to crime" sales. Why they don't do anything about it is beyond me. Like many others have said, there's plenty of current laws that aren't enforced. Adding new ones does nothing but make officials feel good because they've "done something".


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 854619001/

https://www.borderreport.com/regions/ca ... ing-worse/

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/i ... 210266002/

I'm sure all of these stores know or at least have more than a slight suspicion that all those guns end up in the wrong hands.

And only very high profile cases even get prosecuted, why? Because it's not worth it, too often they walk on technicalities ("it was not a transfer, I just lent him the gun", "he just seemed like a nice guy", "he's my cousin how could I say no") or get a slap in the wrist.

You say "enforce the laws", well the problem is that current laws are effectively unenforceable for all but the most blatant cases.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:18 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

See the original post you quoted.

How many attentive dealers out there Vs those who don't care as long as the cash keeps flowing? (the ones near the Mex border, named ones in Indiana, etc.)
The ATF keeps track of dealers who have too many "time from sale to crime" sales. Why they don't do anything about it is beyond me. Like many others have said, there's plenty of current laws that aren't enforced. Adding new ones does nothing but make officials feel good because they've "done something".


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 854619001/

https://www.borderreport.com/regions/ca ... ing-worse/

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/i ... 210266002/

I'm sure all of these stores know or at least have more than a slight suspicion that all those guns end up in the wrong hands.

And only very high profile cases even get prosecuted, why? Because it's not worth it, too often they walk on technicalities ("it was not a transfer, I just lent him the gun", "he just seemed like a nice guy", "he's my cousin how could I say no") or get a slap in the wrist.

You say "enforce the laws", well the problem is that current laws are effectively unenforceable for all but the most blatant cases.
You're preaching to the choir. All the gun owners I know wish these places were closed down and the owners prosecuted. Once again, the laws are there, they just aren't enforced. More laws won't make a difference.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4204
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The ATF keeps track of dealers who have too many "time from sale to crime" sales. Why they don't do anything about it is beyond me. Like many others have said, there's plenty of current laws that aren't enforced. Adding new ones does nothing but make officials feel good because they've "done something".


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 854619001/

https://www.borderreport.com/regions/ca ... ing-worse/

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/i ... 210266002/

I'm sure all of these stores know or at least have more than a slight suspicion that all those guns end up in the wrong hands.

And only very high profile cases even get prosecuted, why? Because it's not worth it, too often they walk on technicalities ("it was not a transfer, I just lent him the gun", "he just seemed like a nice guy", "he's my cousin how could I say no") or get a slap in the wrist.

You say "enforce the laws", well the problem is that current laws are effectively unenforceable for all but the most blatant cases.
You're preaching to the choir. All the gun owners I know wish these places were closed down and the owners prosecuted. Once again, the laws are there, they just aren't enforced. More laws won't make a difference.


Laws that require accountability would make a difference.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:58 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 854619001/

https://www.borderreport.com/regions/ca ... ing-worse/

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/i ... 210266002/

I'm sure all of these stores know or at least have more than a slight suspicion that all those guns end up in the wrong hands.

And only very high profile cases even get prosecuted, why? Because it's not worth it, too often they walk on technicalities ("it was not a transfer, I just lent him the gun", "he just seemed like a nice guy", "he's my cousin how could I say no") or get a slap in the wrist.

You say "enforce the laws", well the problem is that current laws are effectively unenforceable for all but the most blatant cases.
You're preaching to the choir. All the gun owners I know wish these places were closed down and the owners prosecuted. Once again, the laws are there, they just aren't enforced. More laws won't make a difference.


Laws that require accountability would make a difference.


"Liberal gun grabbers" like me have been demanding current laws be enforced but we can't do that because "why are you 'liberals' trying to take away all our guns??!!??" is the constant response. This is a huge problem. WE NEED TO ENFORCE CURRENT LAWS. EVERYONE is saying that. So, enforce them. Go on. Please. We are demanding it and have been for years. Please!
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:06 pm

seb146 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You're preaching to the choir. All the gun owners I know wish these places were closed down and the owners prosecuted. Once again, the laws are there, they just aren't enforced. More laws won't make a difference.


Laws that require accountability would make a difference.


"Liberal gun grabbers" like me have been demanding current laws be enforced but we can't do that because "why are you 'liberals' trying to take away all our guns??!!??" is the constant response. This is a huge problem. WE NEED TO ENFORCE CURRENT LAWS. EVERYONE is saying that. So, enforce them. Go on. Please. We are demanding it and have been for years. Please!
Gun owners are used to the current laws. It's new, stricter ones, that only affect people who obey the law, that we don't want.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:07 pm

JJJ wrote:
[
Laws that require accountability would make a difference.
No, they don't need "accountability", they need "enforcement".
 
JJJ
Posts: 4204
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:31 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
[
Laws that require accountability would make a difference.
No, they don't need "accountability", they need "enforcement".


Look out of the window, they're effectively unenforceable. They don't have any teeth left and have more holes than a barrel of Swiss cheese.

It's not the cops or the prosecutors fault, it's like that by design.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9184
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:45 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
[
Laws that require accountability would make a difference.
No, they don't need "accountability", they need "enforcement".


Look out of the window, they're effectively unenforceable. They don't have any teeth left and have more holes than a barrel of Swiss cheese.

It's not the cops or the prosecutors fault, it's like that by design.


Have a link showing that the current are unenforceable, which isn’t the same as prosecutors refusing to indict.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:56 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
[
Laws that require accountability would make a difference.
No, they don't need "accountability", they need "enforcement".


Look out of the window, they're effectively unenforceable. They don't have any teeth left and have more holes than a barrel of Swiss cheese.

It's not the cops or the prosecutors fault, it's like that by design.
No, even your one link said otherwise. The ATF agent wrote recommendations to close down the one dealer (which they should've), but her superiors kept ignoring her. That's an enforcement problem, not a law problem.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:05 am

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Laws that require accountability would make a difference.


"Liberal gun grabbers" like me have been demanding current laws be enforced but we can't do that because "why are you 'liberals' trying to take away all our guns??!!??" is the constant response. This is a huge problem. WE NEED TO ENFORCE CURRENT LAWS. EVERYONE is saying that. So, enforce them. Go on. Please. We are demanding it and have been for years. Please!
Gun owners are used to the current laws. It's new, stricter ones, that only affect people who obey the law, that we don't want.


Well, obviously not. We need to enforce current gun laws. Just like the right says with minorities, if you are following the law, you have nothing to worry about.

Show one law that is banning guns? This is what it always comes down to. 2A people whining and screaming about "liberals banning guns" but we have yet to see any laws anywhere near that. Don't with the "slippery slope" argument. Point out laws ON THE BOOKS RIGHT NOW that ban guns in the United States. Go on.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 3040
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Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:58 am

johns624 wrote:
More laws won't make a difference.


One law would make a major difference, namely a law which seriously restricted private ownership of guns. Could read along the lines of "Private citizens may only own guns for hunting and sports shooting. Owners shall deposit their guns at a sports shooting club of their choice and may never, under any circumstances, be carried or used outside a shooting range. Hunting rifles shall be of the single-shot type, and may not be able to hold more than two rounds in total.

All guns shall be registered in a central database. Only authorised dealers may engage in the trade of firearms. Gun owners who, through negligence allows their guns to be used in a crime, shall face the same sentence as the person committing the crime."

Then have strict rules governing how guns are stored at clubs, to make theft as difficult as breaking into a bank vault.

I'm not a lawyer, but you get the idea.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:16 am

JJJ wrote:

Laws that require accountability would make a difference.


A change of mindset and a realignment of what is normal would make a bigger difference.

Image

Looking in from the outside, this whole scene is totally alien to me, yet to some in the US, the right to do this is pretty close to the top of their "I live in a free society" indicators.

As a point of interest, why are the vast majority of people I find in photos such as this:

1.) White
2.) Overweight
3.) Male
4.) Bearded

This demographic is probably at the bottom of those who have had their "rights" impeded in the US.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:22 am

B777LRF wrote:
johns624 wrote:
More laws won't make a difference.


One law would make a major difference, namely a law which seriously restricted private ownership of guns. Could read along the lines of "Private citizens may only own guns for hunting and sports shooting. Owners shall deposit their guns at a sports shooting club of their choice and may never, under any circumstances, be carried or used outside a shooting range. Hunting rifles shall be of the single-shot type, and may not be able to hold more than two rounds in total.

All guns shall be registered in a central database. Only authorised dealers may engage in the trade of firearms. Gun owners who, through negligence allows their guns to be used in a crime, shall face the same sentence as the person committing the crime."

Then have strict rules governing how guns are stored at clubs, to make theft as difficult as breaking into a bank vault.

I'm not a lawyer, but you get the idea.


All guns registered, great. Only authorized dealers engaging in the sale of firearms, great. Strict rules about guns at clubs, great. But, again, the 2A people will demand these laws already on the books are illegal.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4204
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:49 am

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, they don't need "accountability", they need "enforcement".


Look out of the window, they're effectively unenforceable. They don't have any teeth left and have more holes than a barrel of Swiss cheese.

It's not the cops or the prosecutors fault, it's like that by design.
No, even your one link said otherwise. The ATF agent wrote recommendations to close down the one dealer (which they should've), but her superiors kept ignoring her. That's an enforcement problem, not a law problem.


Of course the agent pursuing the case called for that, but why didn't they follow? Because even with plenty of evidence they knew the store would sue and most likely win back on appeal in a big profile public case.

Laws as written make it incredibly onerous on the prosecution and it's just not worth it. Again, it's like that by design.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"Liberal gun grabbers" like me have been demanding current laws be enforced but we can't do that because "why are you 'liberals' trying to take away all our guns??!!??" is the constant response. This is a huge problem. WE NEED TO ENFORCE CURRENT LAWS. EVERYONE is saying that. So, enforce them. Go on. Please. We are demanding it and have been for years. Please!
Gun owners are used to the current laws. It's new, stricter ones, that only affect people who obey the law, that we don't want.


Well, obviously not. We need to enforce current gun laws. Just like the right says with minorities, if you are following the law, you have nothing to worry about.

Show one law that is banning guns? This is what it always comes down to. 2A people whining and screaming about "liberals banning guns" but we have yet to see any laws anywhere near that. Don't with the "slippery slope" argument. Point out laws ON THE BOOKS RIGHT NOW that ban guns in the United States. Go on.
While not totally banning guns, unless you're well "connected", it's almost impossible to own a handgun in NYC. As to nobody wanting to ban guns, how about Shirley Jackson Lee's bill? It's defacto banning because of the onerous monetary requirements.
https://jacksonlee.house.gov/media-cent ... an-firearm
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:46 pm

JJJ wrote:
Of course the agent pursuing the case called for that, but why didn't they follow? Because even with plenty of evidence they knew the store would sue and most likely win back on appeal in a big profile public case.

Laws as written make it incredibly onerous on the prosecution and it's just not worth it. Again, it's like that by design.
Do you have proof of that, or is that your opinion? I know a local gun shop that lost its license for poor recordkeeping. It wasn't even criminal, just laziness.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4204
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:55 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Of course the agent pursuing the case called for that, but why didn't they follow? Because even with plenty of evidence they knew the store would sue and most likely win back on appeal in a big profile public case.

Laws as written make it incredibly onerous on the prosecution and it's just not worth it. Again, it's like that by design.
Do you have proof of that, or is that your opinion? I know a local gun shop that lost its license for poor recordkeeping. It wasn't even criminal, just laziness.


Must have been quite serious since very few inspections result in loss of license, despite almost half of them seeing some sort or irregularity.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fac ... -year-2020

And even if they lose them, they often get them back on appeal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/us/a ... tions.html

Basically the ATF just doesn't want to be perceived as anything other than good buddies with the dealers and manufactures, and treats them with kid gloves. You don't want to be in spotlight of the pro-2A lobby which has deep pockets and lots of pull in local, state and federal Govt. They know they would lose legitimity among the very people they are supposed to be regulating.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Murder of Ella French

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Gun owners are used to the current laws. It's new, stricter ones, that only affect people who obey the law, that we don't want.


Well, obviously not. We need to enforce current gun laws. Just like the right says with minorities, if you are following the law, you have nothing to worry about.

Show one law that is banning guns? This is what it always comes down to. 2A people whining and screaming about "liberals banning guns" but we have yet to see any laws anywhere near that. Don't with the "slippery slope" argument. Point out laws ON THE BOOKS RIGHT NOW that ban guns in the United States. Go on.
While not totally banning guns, unless you're well "connected", it's almost impossible to own a handgun in NYC. As to nobody wanting to ban guns, how about Shirley Jackson Lee's bill? It's defacto banning because of the onerous monetary requirements.
https://jacksonlee.house.gov/media-cent ... an-firearm


Like voting? Why should it be easier to own a gun than vote? Why shouldn't gun owners be made to carry insurance, especially considering SOME of the guns out there are manufactured solely for the purpose of taking life?

Besides, the bill does not ban guns. As I said. No one is banning guns.

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