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Kno
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The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:49 pm

As a 30 year old, I just don’t see the appeal of having kids and most of my peers seem to feel the same way. Those of us who do want them want 1-2 maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s.

To me it feels like the appeal is supposed to be this concept of family, this greater love than anything you could have previously known. It sounds like a fairytale when you look around and see divorce and stressed parents with obnoxious rugrats every where you look. Very few people I know are actually close with their siblings. Not having children or keeping the count to 1 or 2 offers freedom not just financially but in terms of maintaining your individuality, your ability to go where you want when you want and be who you want.

As I type this right now I can hear the neighbors kids screaming and crying, stomping around at all hours, and she’s a great mom with very polite kids - so this seems like a best case scenario

The young parents I do know say “this is exhausting” and express a sense of loss from having kids - and then acknowledge a special love they have for their kids that makes it all worth it. I know this is pessimistic but as a reasonable person I can’t help but wonder - is there really some kind of special love and experience that makes it all worth it or do parents need to convince themselves of this just to survive parenthood?

Per the values of yesteryear it seems like raising children was seen as more of an expectation - these days people see it as more so a choice. Even with lucrative jobs these days it is hard to find a decent house in a decent school district - most in big cities are making 6 figures to afford a mediocre apartment and basic transportation while paying off student loans.

Having less kids or no kids seems to be trending - and ultimately this might be for the best in terms of environmental impact and resource management.

I realize this thread sounds quite pessimistic but I thought it would be an interesting topic for the forum to discuss. I’d love to hear some perspectives and experiences from parents and non-parents.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:09 pm

This sounds like the start of a film about the downfall of US civilization that results in Jason Lee and Maya Rudolf being the smartest folks around.

The appeal in having kids is teaching them the same things we were taught and enjoying their successes and working through their failures, much as our own.

I have seen the folks that make it to death with no families of their own, and while they usually find something to fulfill themselves, it is usually a very lonely final few years.
Seeing Children as a block on your own personal goals is not what they should be. When you have kids with a partner, you are committing yourself to that personal goal.
If you don't see the appeal, then there is no reason to have them.


As for the joys, there are tons of them. The cries, the tears, the mistakes, the learning, all make each triumph much more exciting.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:17 pm

My mom keeps asking when I'll turn her into a grandma. I've told her time and time again that her chances of becoming a grandma through me are very slim. I'm not even married, and even if I were, I don't think I want children. I can't become a parent when I live in a country that leaves families to fend for themselves without mandating any benefits for new parents. Baby Boomers and early GenXers are under this idea that their kids need to have children...no, we don't.

Mother keeps insisting that she'll be there to help me raise a kid, but that defeats the purpose of having a kid in the first place. It's like when you're a kid and you ask for a puppy but it's your parents who eventually end up taking care of it: why bother? That's not her responsibility and I'm not gonna allow her to bring it up and use it against me whatsoever.

There are folks who still want kids. My closest friends all have children and they all say it has been worth it. Thankfully, none have asked me about my desire to not have kids.

I'll marry my guy and have furry children (dogs in particular). I won't mind being the guncle or godparent of other children if it comes to it.
 
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keesje
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:26 pm

I'm not objective, having two from 2003-04. I guess you can't only phocus on what it costs you, but you should also count in what yoi get back.

Tons of fun, laughter, hugs, parties, presents, love, other parents, lessons, insights. I remember even getting out of bed at 3, 6 AM to feed & doing a new daiper. The little ones smiling, laughing all the time.

2 Close in age means they'll entertain each other, like the same tv shows, friends etc. and match your two hands in the streets.

The balance for me is very rewarding. The fun part is only 20 out of your 80 years. I recommend it, but everything is personal of course. :)
 
LittleFokker
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:08 pm

casinterest wrote:
This sounds like the start of a film about the downfall of US civilization that results in Jason Lee and Maya Rudolf being the smartest folks around.


I think you mean Luke Wilson, not Jason Lee.

keesje wrote:
I'm not objective, having two from 2003-04. I guess you can't only phocus on what it costs you, but you should also count in what yoi get back.

Tons of fun, laughter, hugs, parties, presents, love, other parents, lessons, insights. I remember even getting out of bed at 3, 6 AM to feed & doing a new daiper. The little ones smiling, laughing all the time.

2 Close in age means they'll entertain each other, like the same tv shows, friends etc. and match your two hands in the streets.

The balance for me is very rewarding. The fun part is only 20 out of your 80 years. I recommend it, but everything is personal of course. :)


Very well said. I'm the father of a 6 year old, and he's the reason I can get through the day sometimes. Sure, there are challenging things, but the reward is well worth it. I have someone that I can share intimate life experiences with who will be able to help me remember them when I'm old and senile. There is no greater joy in my life than watching my son discover the world and being able to assist in that discovery however I can.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:25 pm

You will never understand what true, unconditional and unfaltering love is until you've looked into your baby's eyes and seen them looking back. It lasts forever, and is a constant source of joy, happiness, pride and wonder. In between there are moments of despair, extreme tiredness, angst, doubt and countless frustrations. All part of the job of taking 3,5 kg of living flesh and turning it into a responsible, caring, considerate, curious and ambitious adult.

Mine is 25, still in university studying something I wouldn't dream of understanding, and being very good at it. I've known since she was a teenager that she'd do well for herself, not necessarily money wise but in the much more important business of living a happy, fulfilling and content life. But most important of all she's a good person, and that is the biggest source of pride and joy I will ever feel in my lifetime.

Looking forward to her getting her Ph.d, get a job and start producing some children I can spoil absolutely rotten! They say grand children are the dessert of life, and I can't wait to have mine served.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:36 pm

casinterest wrote:
I have seen the folks that make it to death with no families of their own, and while they usually find something to fulfill themselves, it is usually a very lonely final few years.


Get a dog if you feel lonely.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:52 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I have seen the folks that make it to death with no families of their own, and while they usually find something to fulfill themselves, it is usually a very lonely final few years.


Get a dog if you feel lonely.


I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.
 
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scbriml
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:13 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.


If you think that having kids is going to "hobble your entire life", then you've made the right decision to not have any.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:55 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.


Here's something to make you feel even better about your decision, having children is not a guarantee that you won't feel lonely later in life and vice versa.
 
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DL717
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:19 am

scbriml wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.


If you think that having kids is going to "hobble your entire life", then you've made the right decision to not have any.


Seconded. My goodness.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:34 am

Would just like to flip the script in the thread and offer that if you're having children to prevent loneliness in old age, you're also doing it for the wrong reasons.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:20 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Would just like to flip the script in the thread and offer that if you're having children to prevent loneliness in old age, you're also doing it for the wrong reasons.


Loneliness is just a side effect. Most people have kids that want to provide the same or better environment than they received. After all, we are all someone's child.

I grew up in Florida, and I saw a lot of this. Maybe some were overwhelmingly happy to never have kids, but my experience was that it was usually personal attachment issues, or issues with worrying about passing on genetic issues, or issues with how they were abused.

We were all kids, and we have knowledge, and love to pass on and experiences to share, and that is the appeal of having children.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:24 am

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Would just like to flip the script in the thread and offer that if you're having children to prevent loneliness in old age, you're also doing it for the wrong reasons.


Loneliness is just a side effect. Most people have kids that want to provide the same or better environment than they received. After all, we are all someone's child.

I grew up in Florida, and I saw a lot of this. Maybe some were overwhelmingly happy to never have kids, but my experience was that it was usually personal attachment issues, or issues with worrying about passing on genetic issues, or issues with how they were abused.

We were all kids, and we have knowledge, and love to pass on and experiences to share, and that is the appeal of having children.


I don't dispute any of that, but some people are perfectly happy doing the passing on to nieces, nephews and godchildren. Not everyone is interested in the minimum 18-25 year investment in time and finances required, nor should they have to be.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:33 am

I think it was Dear Abby who was shocked a number of years (decades?) ago when she asked if parents would have kids, had they to do it over. A large percent said not. Studies seem to indicate that couples who do not have children are happier. There is no doubt that kids are expensive, time consuming, and a source of worry until you die. Still most of us are glad we did.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:57 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I think it was Dear Abby who was shocked a number of years (decades?) ago when she asked if parents would have kids, had they to do it over. A large percent said not. Studies seem to indicate that couples who do not have children are happier. There is no doubt that kids are expensive, time consuming, and a source of worry until you die. Still most of us are glad we did.


Agreed.

I love my kid to bits, but I fully understand why some would rather not have them.

The fact is, kids change your life completely. Your lifestyle will be entirely different if you have or don't have kids.
I certainly won't be one who chastises or dismisses those who choose to remain childless.

One thing I'll say though, is that if you're going to have kids, have them early... or at least don't leave it until the last minute.
Unless you really like to be surrounded by them and define your life through them, I think it's important to reserve time for yourself and your SO that you can enjoy and use to do things together and unhindered in the couple of decades you have before age takes away the last of your stamina.
There's nothing that scares me more than witnessing people having to push young kids through school and university while in their 50s or 60s.

Then again, everyone is different and wants different things.
The point is, it's your life. Youi can do whatever you decide, as long as you've thought it through.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:06 am

I also wonder if there are any connections between being religious and the felt-obligation to have children. I also wonder at times if it’s also just our biological mind requesting that we continue the species.

I suppose it’s also environmental in that here in SF, I certainly don’t feel pressure from those around me to have kids and I really rarely see them around except for the Marina.

I figure if I have to ask myself if I want kids, that pretty much answers the question itself.
 
bpatus297
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:35 am

B777LRF wrote:
You will never understand what true, unconditional and unfaltering love is until you've looked into your baby's eyes and seen them looking back. It lasts forever, and is a constant source of joy, happiness, pride and wonder. In between there are moments of despair, extreme tiredness, angst, doubt and countless frustrations. All part of the job of taking 3,5 kg of living flesh and turning it into a responsible, caring, considerate, curious and ambitious adult.

Mine is 25, still in university studying something I wouldn't dream of understanding, and being very good at it. I've known since she was a teenager that she'd do well for herself, not necessarily money wise but in the much more important business of living a happy, fulfilling and content life. But most important of all she's a good person, and that is the biggest source of pride and joy I will ever feel in my lifetime.

Looking forward to her getting her Ph.d, get a job and start producing some children I can spoil absolutely rotten! They say grand children are the dessert of life, and I can't wait to have mine served.


It has to unconditional and unfaltering love otherwise we would never survive out daughters teen years! Just Kidding, but there really isn't a way to truly explain it, it has to be experienced. If I didn't have kids I would be taking month long holidays in Bora Bora, but a weekend with the kids at the lake is probably just as rewarding.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:05 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
You will never understand what true, unconditional and unfaltering love is until you've looked into your baby's eyes and seen them looking back. It lasts forever, and is a constant source of joy, happiness, pride and wonder. In between there are moments of despair, extreme tiredness, angst, doubt and countless frustrations. All part of the job of taking 3,5 kg of living flesh and turning it into a responsible, caring, considerate, curious and ambitious adult.

Mine is 25, still in university studying something I wouldn't dream of understanding, and being very good at it. I've known since she was a teenager that she'd do well for herself, not necessarily money wise but in the much more important business of living a happy, fulfilling and content life. But most important of all she's a good person, and that is the biggest source of pride and joy I will ever feel in my lifetime.

Looking forward to her getting her Ph.d, get a job and start producing some children I can spoil absolutely rotten! They say grand children are the dessert of life, and I can't wait to have mine served.


It has to unconditional and unfaltering love otherwise we would never survive out daughters teen years! Just Kidding, but there really isn't a way to truly explain it, it has to be experienced. If I didn't have kids I would be taking month long holidays in Bora Bora, but a weekend with the kids at the lake is probably just as rewarding.


Ideally that would always be the case but not all parents love unconditionally. Some are narcissistic, cold, or otherwise indifferent and cause emotional damage to their kids that takes years to undo if they can learn how to cope.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Would just like to flip the script in the thread and offer that if you're having children to prevent loneliness in old age, you're also doing it for the wrong reasons.


Loneliness is just a side effect. Most people have kids that want to provide the same or better environment than they received. After all, we are all someone's child.

I grew up in Florida, and I saw a lot of this. Maybe some were overwhelmingly happy to never have kids, but my experience was that it was usually personal attachment issues, or issues with worrying about passing on genetic issues, or issues with how they were abused.

We were all kids, and we have knowledge, and love to pass on and experiences to share, and that is the appeal of having children.


I don't dispute any of that, but some people are perfectly happy doing the passing on to nieces, nephews and godchildren. Not everyone is interested in the minimum 18-25 year investment in time and finances required, nor should they have to be.



I never said they should have to have children, but I have seen people that never wanted children through their 30's suddenly change their mind and have them. Children are wonderful, and the payoffs are great.

That being said, there are people I know that should never have had children. They squabble and bicker constantly, and the only thing saving the kids are the extended family/friends.


I also know Dual/Single Income No Kid folks that make it work. They enjoy doing the same things I enjoy doing, but more often. Their contributions to the tax base are wonderful, and at the end of the day, I don't have to fight for parking at most kid events with them :).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Loneliness is just a side effect. Most people have kids that want to provide the same or better environment than they received. After all, we are all someone's child.

I grew up in Florida, and I saw a lot of this. Maybe some were overwhelmingly happy to never have kids, but my experience was that it was usually personal attachment issues, or issues with worrying about passing on genetic issues, or issues with how they were abused.

We were all kids, and we have knowledge, and love to pass on and experiences to share, and that is the appeal of having children.


I don't dispute any of that, but some people are perfectly happy doing the passing on to nieces, nephews and godchildren. Not everyone is interested in the minimum 18-25 year investment in time and finances required, nor should they have to be.



I never said they should have to have children, but I have seen people that never wanted children through their 30's suddenly change their mind and have them. Children are wonderful, and the payoffs are great.

That being said, there are people I know that should never have had children. They squabble and bicker constantly, and the only thing saving the kids are the extended family/friends.


I also know Dual/Single Income No Kid folks that make it work. They enjoy doing the same things I enjoy doing, but more often. Their contributions to the tax base are wonderful, and at the end of the day, I don't have to fight for parking at most kid events with them :).


No worries, I know you're not saying that. But there are some psycho politicians and pundits out there trying to suggest that the childless among us should lose the right to vote.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:38 pm

There is this TV series where a nanny is coming to a household to "set things straight" and "bring order and obedience" to the chaos. I forgot the name of the series. Anyone familiar with it?
Anyhow, it just shows you some parents are utterly unsuitable to have kids.
 
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scbriml
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
There is this TV series where a nanny is coming to a household to "set things straight" and "bring order and obedience" to the chaos. I forgot the name of the series. Anyone familiar with it?
Anyhow, it just shows you some parents are utterly unsuitable to have kids.


We had Supernanny in the UK.
 
afcjets
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:33 am

scbriml wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.


If you think that having kids is going to "hobble your entire life", then you've made the right decision to not have any.




einsteinboricua wrote:
I can't become a parent when I live in a country that leaves families to fend for themselves without mandating any benefits for new parents.


If it weren't for his mom, I would say the same thing for him too. At least the kid would have a grandmother that wants it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:47 am

afcjets wrote:
scbriml wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I have made the decision to not have kids for many reasons. One of the main ones was that it didn't seem worth hobbling my entire life simply to not feel lonely for my last few years.


If you think that having kids is going to "hobble your entire life", then you've made the right decision to not have any.




einsteinboricua wrote:
I can't become a parent when I live in a country that leaves families to fend for themselves without mandating any benefits for new parents.


If it weren't for his mom, I would say the same thing for him too. At least the kid would have a grandmother that wants it.


Say whaaaaaaaa???
 
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stl07
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:31 am

One thing I would like to add is that a kid is a part your legacy. A direct blood descendent of you. What you leave behind when you go. A mark you left on the earth.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:40 am

stl07 wrote:
One thing I would like to add is that a kid is a part your legacy. A direct blood descendent of you. What you leave behind when you go. A mark you left on the earth.


To some extent yes, but other types of legacies can be far more impactful. Nobody on this forum would agree that Joe Sutter, Chuck Yeager, Kelly Johnson or Saul Bass's primary legacies were their kids.
 
Jalap
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:59 am

I've always hated kids.

Then I got 2 of my own. The moment I started thinking that maybe it was time, we got pregnant. Back in 2008. It freaked me out.

Today, I say I hate most kids.

And I tell eveybody it's well worth to have them ;)
I love and adore mine and (most of) their friends.
But I still see so many kids that would be horror to parent...
Perhaps it's a bit of a lottery.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:26 pm

I was never planning on having kids. I had no idea how to interact with them, and I just plain didn't like the idea of being a parent... until we adopted a one year old girl. I wouldn't change it for the World now.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:09 am

Kno wrote:
As a 30 year old, I just don’t see the appeal of having kids and most of my peers seem to feel the same way. Those of us who do want them want 1-2 maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s.


Pretty common. But yeah, that is a sign of a dying culture, if many people feel that way. Any doctor will tell you - trying to have a family "maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s" has a low probability of yielding a baby, let alone several kids. That culture will be closing a lot of schools. In a generation, there will not be many people around like you and your peers. That's a consequence of that viewpoint.

I think it is curious that it suddenly people thought it is possible to "live your life" without any kids in the picture. Logically speaking, that implies a culture is ending. Which is a pretty unusual event. So it's unusual for so many people to have that view.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:17 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Kno wrote:
As a 30 year old, I just don’t see the appeal of having kids and most of my peers seem to feel the same way. Those of us who do want them want 1-2 maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s.


Pretty common. But yeah, that is a sign of a dying culture, if many people feel that way. Any doctor will tell you - trying to have a family "maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s" has a low probability of yielding a baby, let alone several kids. That culture will be closing a lot of schools. In a generation, there will not be many people around like you and your peers. That's a consequence of that viewpoint.

I think it is curious that it suddenly people thought it is possible to "live your life" without any kids in the picture. Logically speaking, that implies a culture is ending. Which is a pretty unusual event. So it's unusual for so many people to have that view.


I can assure you having lived in the country with the deepest demographic crisis of this nature, Japanese people do not say or believe their 'culture is ending'. Many just believe that earning potential and job security are not what they were in their parents' time, and don't want to risk the financial pressures of children.

As for the US, schools are closing in areas economy has declined and they are opening (and bursting) in suburban areas that are growing. That is normal socioeconomic activity.
 
M564038
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:11 pm

At 30 I was about where the thread starter was. As was my friends. No one got kids early. We travelled, worked late on exiting projects with no limitations, we drank and had fun and did lots of exiting things and got a taste of money, credibility and even fame.
I was busy fulfilling my own dreams and ambitions. I did start to see a future were I was going to be bored and feel empty only caring about my own self-fullfilment. I began to see that the joy in my life-style was from seeing every arrow pointing upwards. Not sustainable. It was starting to get late when we decided to have kids, because we at some point got a feeling we would regret it if we didn’t.

Luckily the process of having them was pretty straightforward for us. All healthy and perfect. We got 3. The youngest one is 1,5. I just spent 2 hours getting her to fall asleep with her noon nap. Crying, kicking, despair, exhaustion. I could have done so much with 2 hours!

Still worth every damn second.

The first thing I noticed when I saw her newborn, was she had the exact same hands as me. Wvery pattern in exactly tge same place. The same textures. She also looked scaringly like my deceased grandfather, my mother and my wife. I was in love 100% from the first second.
It is so banal, but it does indeed feel like a purpose to guide this little one up through life towards adulthood. It fills me with a sense of deep satisfaction and meaning. Every little step is filled with joy. Seriously.
I feel like I instinctively know her every need. At some level they are like an extension of you, and yet an exiting individual full of surprises gradually poking their self forward. Day by day.
Does it take a lot of time and effort? Yes. Is it sometimes exhausting? Yes.
Does it actually feel like a bother? No!

My life would allready have started the long down hill towards advanced age and not keeping up with the times if it weren’t for the kids. My biggest “successes” are probably behind me in my own life, at least the feelings of accomplishment from making some kind of advancment in my own career or interests.
I would probably have become a bored alcholic. Or even worse, a ambitious 50ish triatlon moron.

But instead, the added dimension of kids and seeing them grow up makes it feel like the best years in life are still up ahead!

I recommend it!
 
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keesje
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:30 pm

Side note; for many "taking" kids is not a decision they can make. Health, having a / the right partner, safe environment, income, aren't a given for everyone.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:36 pm

M564038 wrote:
I would probably have become a bored alcholic. Or even worse, a ambitious 50ish triatlon moron.

But instead, the added dimension of kids and seeing them grow up makes it feel like the best years in life are still up ahead!

I recommend it!


Love this quote hahaha and very true.

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Kno wrote:
As a 30 year old, I just don’t see the appeal of having kids and most of my peers seem to feel the same way. Those of us who do want them want 1-2 maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s.


Pretty common. But yeah, that is a sign of a dying culture, if many people feel that way. Any doctor will tell you - trying to have a family "maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s" has a low probability of yielding a baby, let alone several kids. That culture will be closing a lot of schools. In a generation, there will not be many people around like you and your peers. That's a consequence of that viewpoint.

I think it is curious that it suddenly people thought it is possible to "live your life" without any kids in the picture. Logically speaking, that implies a culture is ending. Which is a pretty unusual event. So it's unusual for so many people to have that view.


I can assure you having lived in the country with the deepest demographic crisis of this nature, Japanese people do not say or believe their 'culture is ending'. Many just believe that earning potential and job security are not what they were in their parents' time, and don't want to risk the financial pressures of children.

As for the US, schools are closing in areas economy has declined and they are opening (and bursting) in suburban areas that are growing. That is normal socioeconomic activity.


Japan is a perfect example of what this thread starter was talking about.

It is weird to think of babies as optional, or "maybe in mid-30s early 40s." That set of beliefs would have prevented us from being born as humans. So there is actually not only a clear biological falsehood to it, but also a slight bit of hypocrisy. I just think it is a quirk in "our" culture right now. And I don't see it ending. I think Gen Z may end up having even fewer kids, since they are so occupied with other things. The whole thing is VERY weird and unprecedented in history, imo.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15986
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:59 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I would probably have become a bored alcholic. Or even worse, a ambitious 50ish triatlon moron.

But instead, the added dimension of kids and seeing them grow up makes it feel like the best years in life are still up ahead!

I recommend it!


Love this quote hahaha and very true.

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Pretty common. But yeah, that is a sign of a dying culture, if many people feel that way. Any doctor will tell you - trying to have a family "maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s" has a low probability of yielding a baby, let alone several kids. That culture will be closing a lot of schools. In a generation, there will not be many people around like you and your peers. That's a consequence of that viewpoint.

I think it is curious that it suddenly people thought it is possible to "live your life" without any kids in the picture. Logically speaking, that implies a culture is ending. Which is a pretty unusual event. So it's unusual for so many people to have that view.


I can assure you having lived in the country with the deepest demographic crisis of this nature, Japanese people do not say or believe their 'culture is ending'. Many just believe that earning potential and job security are not what they were in their parents' time, and don't want to risk the financial pressures of children.

As for the US, schools are closing in areas economy has declined and they are opening (and bursting) in suburban areas that are growing. That is normal socioeconomic activity.


Japan is a perfect example of what this thread starter was talking about.

It is weird to think of babies as optional, or "maybe in mid-30s early 40s." That set of beliefs would have prevented us from being born as humans. So there is actually not only a clear biological falsehood to it, but also a slight bit of hypocrisy. I just think it is a quirk in "our" culture right now. And I don't see it ending. I think Gen Z may end up having even fewer kids, since they are so occupied with other things. The whole thing is VERY weird and unprecedented in history, imo.


Kind of a static view divorced from the big picture of the evolving situational awareness of humans. At no time in our history has so much knowledge been available, especially about current threats to both future work prospects and our situation here on our planet. 200 years ago when people were still having six or seven children by 24, with two or three dying before age 2, that extent of knowledge was inconceivable. The practical knowledge people did have about such things was limited to whatever radius they could cover on horseback. You can't compare then to now in that respect. Futurism was not even an oft-written about topic until the turn of the 20th century.

There will be 8 billion of us in less than two years and for anyone born in 1980, that will be nearly double. These attitudes and their growing zeitgeist are the new normal, and there is nothing weird about it. What surprises me is how many older attitudes continue to disappear gradually instead of more quickly.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Kno wrote:
As a 30 year old, I just don’t see the appeal of having kids and most of my peers seem to feel the same way. Those of us who do want them want 1-2 maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s.


Pretty common. But yeah, that is a sign of a dying culture, if many people feel that way. Any doctor will tell you - trying to have a family "maybe starting mid 30s - early 40s" has a low probability of yielding a baby, let alone several kids. That culture will be closing a lot of schools. In a generation, there will not be many people around like you and your peers. That's a consequence of that viewpoint.

I think it is curious that it suddenly people thought it is possible to "live your life" without any kids in the picture. Logically speaking, that implies a culture is ending. Which is a pretty unusual event. So it's unusual for so many people to have that view.


I can assure you having lived in the country with the deepest demographic crisis of this nature, Japanese people do not say or believe their 'culture is ending'.

If you live in a society where young people prefer to have no kids, this society will become extinct. That’s a mathematical fact. And if you live in a mixed society like I do, where immigrants still have a lot of kids whereas the non-immigrants prefer to have no kids, well it’s easy: this mixed society will change. Again, that’s a mathematical fact.

But I have a deep understanding of your thoughts: when my wife stopped to take the anti-baby-pill, I thought; that’s it, my life is over…


But it’s not, it‘s great to have children.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:56 pm

Keep in mind uneducated people will probably not have the same thoughts and pop out 3 or 4...

I've just spent a week vacationing at my parent's coastal house, with my younger sister and her partner (no kids but thinking about it), my parents, and my niece and nephew from my brother (who took 2 weeks of vacations FROM his kids). The niece is 4 and the nephew is 2, they're good kids, too smart for their wellbeing, you need to watch them all the time. After a week like this my sister isn't sure she wants kids anymore... My mother is exhausted... I think one parent working less, let's say a 20 hours week, when they're young, has to be a serious consideration.
 
CH47A
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Re: The appeal of raising children

Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:03 pm

Oh my, this is one tough, tough topic to offer opinions on and to even give full consideration to. Spotted this a bit back when wandering away from that other topic/thread that is really a bother in my life at present and have been keeping up with the posts in this thread and some really good thoughts have been posted.

But one thing seems to be - - - well, not posted. At least, I haven't spotted it. I could have missed something. Age can cause trouble like that and I sure ain't no young fella anymore. I'm not even sure I ever was "young".

The one thing I don't think I have seen posted about yet is the transition a parent has to go through from that is my daughter/son to that is a new adult on the planet, just like me.

There has to be that transition from teaching a non-adult to listening to another adult. Now I don't know why that vocabulary "non-adult" just jumped out of my brain onto that screen I am looking at, but I really want to use that style of thinking. Not child, or teenager, or any of that thinking. I really want to use the concept of non-adult and adult.

Now here is where I think there are troubles in many families --- some folks never make that transition to truly looking upon their former child as being an adult with an equal right to disagree with their former father/mother. ('Father' went first because that is me.) Some folks seem to always feel they can be "teaching" that other human that used to be their non-adult charge; that was their duty to help them make the transition from non-adult to adult. And once they make that transition you've got to back off and get it into your head that they --- that used-to-be-kid of yours --- that person is now in a different league and so have some new respect for that new league they are in.

Wow, this has turned into a bloody lecture, hasn't it? Sorry about that. It is a tough topic and the very first time I have put this to words on a screen. I might have put some of these thoughts in my personal journal, but I am not sure about that.

Anyway, the summary is there comes a time when you are no longer a parent and I think some folks can't handle that too well. That sometimes results in a nastiness creeping into the relationship and that is so uncool.

Oh my goodness, I better hit that preview thingy and see if I should submit this.
 
invertalon
Posts: 81
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:07 pm

I feel like a non-biased answer to this question is extremely difficult. People don't like to admit mistakes, even when small, let alone bringing humans into this world in which they regret. Likewise, those who chose not to have kids, will promote all the free time, money, travel, etc.... Even if they don't have or do any of those things.

No right or wrong, obviously. Just what works best for a couple or each individual.

Personally, we chose not to have kids... I was very much in the middle, I could go either way. Probably leaned more toward not having them. I am 33 at the moment and still very happy with my decision not to. I could explain the list of reasons why, but it's the same old stuff. In short, I don't need the experience of having and raising a kid to feel 'fulfilled' in life. While I would be an amazing dad, I don't need to be, at least for a human. I am more than content with my huskies!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15986
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:12 pm

invertalon wrote:
I feel like a non-biased answer to this question is extremely difficult. People don't like to admit mistakes, even when small, let alone bringing humans into this world in which they regret. Likewise, those who chose not to have kids, will promote all the free time, money, travel, etc.... Even if they don't have or do any of those things.

No right or wrong, obviously. Just what works best for a couple or each individual.

Personally, we chose not to have kids... I was very much in the middle, I could go either way. Probably leaned more toward not having them. I am 33 at the moment and still very happy with my decision not to. I could explain the list of reasons why, but it's the same old stuff. In short, I don't need the experience of having and raising a kid to feel 'fulfilled' in life. While I would be an amazing dad, I don't need to be, at least for a human. I am more than content with my huskies!


Most of these decisions come down to what the missus wants anyhow :D
 
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casinterest
Posts: 13927
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:21 pm

CH47A wrote:
Oh my, this is one tough, tough topic to offer opinions on and to even give full consideration to. Spotted this a bit back when wandering away from that other topic/thread that is really a bother in my life at present and have been keeping up with the posts in this thread and some really good thoughts have been posted.

But one thing seems to be - - - well, not posted. At least, I haven't spotted it. I could have missed something. Age can cause trouble like that and I sure ain't no young fella anymore. I'm not even sure I ever was "young".

The one thing I don't think I have seen posted about yet is the transition a parent has to go through from that is my daughter/son to that is a new adult on the planet, just like me.

There has to be that transition from teaching a non-adult to listening to another adult. Now I don't know why that vocabulary "non-adult" just jumped out of my brain onto that screen I am looking at, but I really want to use that style of thinking. Not child, or teenager, or any of that thinking. I really want to use the concept of non-adult and adult.

Now here is where I think there are troubles in many families --- some folks never make that transition to truly looking upon their former child as being an adult with an equal right to disagree with their former father/mother. ('Father' went first because that is me.) Some folks seem to always feel they can be "teaching" that other human that used to be their non-adult charge; that was their duty to help them make the transition from non-adult to adult. And once they make that transition you've got to back off and get it into your head that they --- that used-to-be-kid of yours --- that person is now in a different league and so have some new respect for that new league they are in.

Wow, this has turned into a bloody lecture, hasn't it? Sorry about that. It is a tough topic and the very first time I have put this to words on a screen. I might have put some of these thoughts in my personal journal, but I am not sure about that.

Anyway, the summary is there comes a time when you are no longer a parent and I think some folks can't handle that too well. That sometimes results in a nastiness creeping into the relationship and that is so uncool.

Oh my goodness, I better hit that preview thingy and see if I should submit this.


This is an issue I have seen play out with many adult acquaintances and their parents. it is causing fractures in many family relationships, and is probably best served by another thread.

However it is not the reason to not have children.
 
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b777900
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I have seen the folks that make it to death with no families of their own, and while they usually find something to fulfill themselves, it is usually a very lonely final few years.


Get a dog if you feel lonely.


OR a Cat... they are both good..
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:22 pm

b777900 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I have seen the folks that make it to death with no families of their own, and while they usually find something to fulfill themselves, it is usually a very lonely final few years.


Get a dog if you feel lonely.


OR a Cat... they are both good..


Iguanas are great too. Whatever you do, don't get a cockatoo unless you enjoy having an emotionally needy noisemaker around the house.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:43 am

Aaron747 wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Get a dog if you feel lonely.


OR a Cat... they are both good..


Iguanas are great too. Whatever you do, don't get a cockatoo unless you enjoy having an emotionally needy noisemaker around the house.


You forgot "destructive" as a cockatoo adjective (or maybe that's only wild ones).

I always felt too young to have kids, and was 38 when my first was born. Apart from my eldest rarely sleeping for his first year (we did need "sleep school", as we had limited parental support) I've never really regretted it. He's now at University.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:35 am

I'm a millennial. Being a working age adult 4 years out of college and early in a career, I'm on the fence about kids. That said if I find the right girl I'll probably have some. I have a moderate passion for teaching so to echo an earlier poster , I know I'd enjoy watching them grow and discover the world. But I'm also a late bloomer and didn't start dating until fairly recently. My recent ex girlfriend said she didn't want kids, but also said if she got knocked up she wouldn't see it as much of an inconvenience for her.

I always waiver back and forth, I can see arguments to both sides. I also saw a video today saying millennials are waiting longer to have kids than earlier generations due to feeling financially secure later than older generations have. Also this world is nuts, do I want my child to grow up in it? Or will they be that pioneer that makes everything better for everyone? Tough call.

That said, being an uncle is awesome. Being a grandpa would be awesome but gotta have kids first lol.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15986
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:29 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I'm a millennial. Being a working age adult 4 years out of college and early in a career, I'm on the fence about kids. That said if I find the right girl I'll probably have some. I have a moderate passion for teaching so to echo an earlier poster , I know I'd enjoy watching them grow and discover the world. But I'm also a late bloomer and didn't start dating until fairly recently. My recent ex girlfriend said she didn't want kids, but also said if she got knocked up she wouldn't see it as much of an inconvenience for her.

I always waiver back and forth, I can see arguments to both sides. I also saw a video today saying millennials are waiting longer to have kids than earlier generations due to feeling financially secure later than older generations have. Also this world is nuts, do I want my child to grow up in it? Or will they be that pioneer that makes everything better for everyone? Tough call.

That said, being an uncle is awesome. Being a grandpa would be awesome but gotta have kids first lol.


Being an uncle is absolutely awesome, especially if the kids are relatively near.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I'm a millennial. Being a working age adult 4 years out of college and early in a career, I'm on the fence about kids. That said if I find the right girl I'll probably have some. I have a moderate passion for teaching so to echo an earlier poster , I know I'd enjoy watching them grow and discover the world. But I'm also a late bloomer and didn't start dating until fairly recently. My recent ex girlfriend said she didn't want kids, but also said if she got knocked up she wouldn't see it as much of an inconvenience for her.

I always waiver back and forth, I can see arguments to both sides. I also saw a video today saying millennials are waiting longer to have kids than earlier generations due to feeling financially secure later than older generations have. Also this world is nuts, do I want my child to grow up in it? Or will they be that pioneer that makes everything better for everyone? Tough call.

That said, being an uncle is awesome. Being a grandpa would be awesome but gotta have kids first lol.


Being an uncle is absolutely awesome, especially if the kids are relatively near.

I'm in Denver and the 19 month nephew is in Houston. But I got flight benefits and I'll be seeing him soon!
 
zrs70
Posts: 3804
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:38 am

My husband and I brought twins into the world at a later chapter in life. I was 48 and he was 55 when they were born. We had been talking about kids for over 20 years, but it was never the right. (Truth is, there really isn’t any ideal time).

We love to travel.
We love spontaneity.
We love being able to go on day trips.
We both work long hours.

There was a long list of reasons. Top it off, neither of us felt particularly moved by the hands on parenting.

But a paternal urge really got to us.

Gay couples have to go through lots of hoops to have babies. We chose surrogacy. It took many years.

But two years ago, these blessings entered the world.

While I now understand while it’s better to have babies when you are in your 20’s/ 30’s (OY, my back!), we wouldn’t change things for a moment. Yes, they cry. Yes, they make noise. Yes, they anchor us to our homes. Yes, we have become “that” family on plane trips.

And yes, we love it. As noted above, that bond, that connection…. It’s truly miraculous. We are lucky. We have. A village. (With twins, you really need it). Lots of family. Lot’s of help in the house. Covid allowed us the opportunity to be home in these first years. I suppose that’s a silver lining of this horrible pandemic.

I now look back at pre-kids. How did I spend my time? How did I waste my time?

And yes, their are many, MANY challenges we will be facing. Our kids are still in the very cute/ sweet faze. Terrible twos? Bring them on! We can handle that. But the realities of being a kid in the 21st century. That will be a learning curve!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:52 am

zrs70 wrote:
Gay couples have to go through lots of hoops to have babies. We chose surrogacy. It took many years.


This REALLY grinds my gears. Absolutely unnecessary red tape driven by fear, pseudoscience, and evangelical nonsense.
 
zrs70
Posts: 3804
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

Re: The appeal of raising children

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:54 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
Gay couples have to go through lots of hoops to have babies. We chose surrogacy. It took many years.


This REALLY grinds my gears. Absolutely unnecessary red tape driven by fear, pseudoscience, and evangelical nonsense.


Please don’t misunderstand. The hoops weren’t driven by fear or evangelical nonsense. Hoops because you need an egg donor, you need a surrogate, you need lawyers to ensure all parties agree to hecterms, etc. there is trial and error,

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