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Airstud
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Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:27 pm

https://www.saltwire.com/nova-scotia/news/ns-top-court-decision-marks-historic-shift-for-sentencing-offenders-of-african-descent-100626921/

I'm not clear exactly what the binding effect is of the Court of Appeals' decision here, but it looks like the historic injustices faced by the monolith of black Canadians are now supposed to be assumed to be a factor behind certain defendants' behavior - rather than consider the defendant to be an individual.

Is what it looks like.

(I actually don't know how Canuck courts work. )

(Canadian flag emoji)
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:36 pm

Airstud wrote:
https://www.saltwire.com/nova-scotia/news/ns-top-court-decision-marks-historic-shift-for-sentencing-offenders-of-african-descent-100626921/

I'm not clear exactly what the binding effect is of the Court of Appeals' decision here, but it looks like the historic injustices faced by the monolith of black Canadians are now supposed to be assumed to be a factor behind certain defendants' behavior - rather than consider the defendant to be an individual.

Is what it looks like.

(I actually don't know how Canuck courts work. )

(Canadian flag emoji)


Worth pointing out each Canadian province is empowered to administer its own procedures and government, so this is a Nova Scotia thing, not a national policy.

On its face the policy doesn't make sense to me, but I don't know the particulars of history in that province.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:15 pm

It appears that Nova Scotia has reached a point where it recognizes systematic racism(CRT anyone) and is trying to correct for years of harsher sentences.
I see nothing wrong with it. I think with enough databases and statistics, sentences will be handed out with better outcomes related to the crime.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:26 pm

In France sentences are always personalized, and mandatory minimums or stuff like that are either non existent, not enforced, or ways are found around them.

I'm not sure it really helps in the end because after a couple of slaps on the hand, the criminal youth think the justice system is a joke and they can do anything, and they do finally end up in jail for years (or killed by some other youth with a similar mindset).
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
It appears that Nova Scotia has reached a point where it recognizes systematic racism(CRT anyone) and is trying to correct for years of harsher sentences.
I see nothing wrong with it. I think with enough databases and statistics, sentences will be handed out with better outcomes related to the crime.


So, you’re ok with someone receiving a lighter/shorter sentence than another individual, that committed the same crime, simply because of his race?

[sarcasm]You’ve heard of racism, right?[/sarcasm]

The fact that it occurred in the past does not make it right to do it today.

It’s racism, pure and simple, to use someone’s race as a guideline for anything.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:43 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It appears that Nova Scotia has reached a point where it recognizes systematic racism(CRT anyone) and is trying to correct for years of harsher sentences.
I see nothing wrong with it. I think with enough databases and statistics, sentences will be handed out with better outcomes related to the crime.


So, you’re ok with someone receiving a lighter/shorter sentence than another individual, that committed the same crime, simply because of his race?

[sarcasm]You’ve heard of racism, right?[/sarcasm]

The fact that it occurred in the past does not make it right to do it today.

It’s racism, pure and simple, to use someone’s race as a guideline for anything.


But you missed the point, The sentences handed out by judges have been proven that they are systematically harsher for skin color for the same crimes. So the judges have to be made aware of their systematic biases.

Wouldn't you agree that a 1st time offender for stealing a candy bar from a store be given the same sentence as any other?

The issue has been that people have and still are racially discriminated in sentencing by money and racial factors.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:50 pm

casinterest wrote:

But you missed the point, The sentences handed out by judges have been proven that they are systematically harsher for skin color for the same crimes. So the judges have to be made aware of their systematic biases.

Wouldn't you agree that a 1st time offender for stealing a candy bar from a store be given the same sentence as any other?

The issue has been that people have and still are racially discriminated in sentencing by money and racial factors.


No, I haven’t missed the point. The point is that this policy/ruling/guideline/whatever seeks to “even the score” but using a race as a determinant for the level of punishment to be levied on someone found guilty if a crime.

How is that not racism?

Everyone should be treated equally under the law. The fact that that hasn’t been the case in the past, does not make it right to to use race now to effect change.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:56 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

But you missed the point, The sentences handed out by judges have been proven that they are systematically harsher for skin color for the same crimes. So the judges have to be made aware of their systematic biases.

Wouldn't you agree that a 1st time offender for stealing a candy bar from a store be given the same sentence as any other?

The issue has been that people have and still are racially discriminated in sentencing by money and racial factors.


No, I haven’t missed the point. The point is that this policy/ruling/guideline/whatever seeks to “even the score” but using a race as a determinant for the level of punishment to be levied on someone found guilty if a crime.

How is that not racism?

Everyone should be treated equally under the law. The fact that that hasn’t been the case in the past, does not make it right to to use race now to effect change.


Everyone should be treated equally under the law, but they are no. It has been proven throughout the US legal system. Police officers, judges lawyers and a host of other people have to be trained out of their own programmed systematic racism.

Don't tell me you don't have acquaintances, especially of the older generation that still make very racist statements and actions based on their own inherent biases.

Sitting back and saying everyone is "equal" under the law is like saying every kid that enters a school is equally capable of achieving a higher education. Both statements exclude the external factors already present.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:00 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

But you missed the point, The sentences handed out by judges have been proven that they are systematically harsher for skin color for the same crimes. So the judges have to be made aware of their systematic biases.

Wouldn't you agree that a 1st time offender for stealing a candy bar from a store be given the same sentence as any other?

The issue has been that people have and still are racially discriminated in sentencing by money and racial factors.


No, I haven’t missed the point. The point is that this policy/ruling/guideline/whatever seeks to “even the score” but using a race as a determinant for the level of punishment to be levied on someone found guilty if a crime.

How is that not racism?

Everyone should be treated equally under the law. The fact that that hasn’t been the case in the past, does not make it right to to use race now to effect change.


In the abstract you are correct but that principle does not and can not apply universally. D&I targets are justified in private organizations that want to better reflect their market conditions or expand into new areas. In government hiring too, they also make sense. It would be inadvisable, especially in this day and age, to staff a police or fire department in a diverse area with a huge majority of any particular background. In the past many qualified candidates were overlooked simply because of their race - nowadays there are many qualified candidates from all backgrounds and organizations can craft the kind of diversity and culture their customers or constituents want. This is a good thing.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:22 pm

Let me ask you a simple yes or no question.

Is it racist to use a person’s skin color as a determinant on how they should be treated?

Yes or no?

Because it’s been done in the past does not make it right to do it now, even if it comes from good intention. Racism is wrong, regardless of the aggrieved party.

To support these racist guidelines is racist.

You wanna fix the problem? Identify the judges that use race as a determinant for sentencing and remove them.

But, racism, especially state-sponsored racism is wrong.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:36 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Let me ask you a simple yes or no question.

Is it racist to use a person’s skin color as a determinant on how they should be treated?

Yes or no?

Because it’s been done in the past does not make it right to do it now, even if it comes from good intention. Racism is wrong, regardless of the aggrieved party.

To support these racist guidelines is racist.

You wanna fix the problem? Identify the judges that use race as a determinant for sentencing and remove them.

But, racism, especially state-sponsored racism is wrong.



It isn't a simple question. It ignores space and time and external factors that affect the current outcome.

You are also misconstruing the law. It is seeking to fix the racism inherent from years of training and education by people predisposed to it.

I put forth the below issue. Why did the below police officer see fit to intentionally hurt people of African American dissent, and why was in that position in the first place?
https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/ ... 8c76b.html
State Police released a statement Wednesday saying that Jacob Brown, the White trooper who struck Bowman, “engaged in excessive and unjustifiable actions," failed to report the use of force to his supervisors and “intentionally mislabeled” his body camera video.


Before resigning in March, Brown tallied 23 use-of-force incidents dating to 2015 — 19 of them targeting Black people, according to State Police records.

Racism and equal under law are not the same thing, and justice is not something that should have to wait years to get as we wait for those that were trained and educated under such systems slowly get weeded out by unjust actions against others.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:50 pm

It is a simple question. The answer is “yes”.

The externalities are just used to justify the action.

I’m not saying a problem doesn’t exist. It would be just as racist to do that.

What I’m saying is racism should not be used to combat racism. It’s like throwing wood on a gas fire and saying you’re trying to smother the gas fire. It won’t work. It’ll just make things worse.

Identify the folks that use race to determine action and deal with them.

State-sponsored racism is wrong.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:37 pm

fr8mech wrote:
It is a simple question. The answer is “yes”.

The externalities are just used to justify the action.

I’m not saying a problem doesn’t exist. It would be just as racist to do that.

What I’m saying is racism should not be used to combat racism. It’s like throwing wood on a gas fire and saying you’re trying to smother the gas fire. It won’t work. It’ll just make things worse.

Identify the folks that use race to determine action and deal with them.

State-sponsored racism is wrong.



It's not racism that is being used. It is a tool that represents past racism. It is the same as CRT.
We can't understand how we got where we are without understanding what the driving forces were.

This isn't state sponsored racism in Nova Scotia. It is education of the factors that have gone into years of racism.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:40 pm

casinterest wrote:

It's not racism that is being used. It is a tool that represents past racism. It is the same as CRT.
We can't understand how we got where we are without understanding what the driving forces were.

This isn't state sponsored racism in Nova Scotia. It is education of the factors that have gone into years of racism.


If race is being used as a determinant of punishment, then it is racism. I don’t care how it is rationalized.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:44 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It's not racism that is being used. It is a tool that represents past racism. It is the same as CRT.
We can't understand how we got where we are without understanding what the driving forces were.

This isn't state sponsored racism in Nova Scotia. It is education of the factors that have gone into years of racism.


If race is being used as a determinant of punishment, then it is racism. I don’t care how it is rationalized.


Then we should fire everyone raised during years where racism was allowed. We have inherent racism so we must clean the slate right?
Or how about we recognize what happened and make sure it doesn't keep happening?
 
johns624
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:06 pm

Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?


It is Canada, but the principal is still the same.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:18 pm

casinterest wrote:

Then we should fire everyone raised during years where racism was allowed. We have inherent racism so we must clean the slate right?
Or how about we recognize what happened and make sure it doesn't keep happening?


Who said it shouldn’t be recognized? I have recognized it several times above.

And, yes, it needs to be fixed.

But, you don’t keep it from happening again changing the group benefiting from the racism. You fix racism, first and foremost, by not being racist in policies and in practice.

johns624 wrote:
Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?


Yeah, so?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:22 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Then we should fire everyone raised during years where racism was allowed. We have inherent racism so we must clean the slate right?
Or how about we recognize what happened and make sure it doesn't keep happening?


Who said it shouldn’t be recognized? I have recognized it several times above.

And, yes, it needs to be fixed.

But, you don’t keep it from happening again changing the group benefiting from the racism. You fix racism, first and foremost, by not being racist in policies and in practice.

johns624 wrote:
Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?


Yeah, so?



Racism in polices and practices has to be fixed, which is why Nova Scotia set up their guidelines.
 
johns624
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:25 pm

fr8mech wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?


Yeah, so?
A certain poster is writing like Canada has the same history with Blacks as we do. They don't. Maybe with First Nation people, but not Blacks.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:28 pm

johns624 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Does everyone realize that we are talking about Canada here, not the US?


Yeah, so?
A certain poster is writing like Canada has the same history with Blacks as we do. They don't. Maybe with First Nation people, but not Blacks.


Why do you make such a bogus assumption. ? It is in the articles. or here.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-char ... -1.4970352
 
johns624
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:


Yeah, so?
A certain poster is writing like Canada has the same history with Blacks as we do. They don't. Maybe with First Nation people, but not Blacks.


Why do you make such a bogus assumption. ? It is in the articles. or here.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-char ... -1.4970352
That article has nothing about harsher sentencing for blacks versus other races. After all, that is the theme for this thread.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:58 pm

casinterest wrote:


Racism in polices and practices has to be fixed, which is why Nova Scotia set up their guidelines.


It’s a logical inconsistency to use racist policies and guidelines to fix racism.

You don’t fix racism by being racist.

Again, if your policies or guidelines use race to make decisions, then your policy has racist elements, and will be racist in practice.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:10 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Racism in polices and practices has to be fixed, which is why Nova Scotia set up their guidelines.


It’s a logical inconsistency to use racist policies and guidelines to fix racism.

You don’t fix racism by being racist.

Again, if your policies or guidelines use race to make decisions, then your policy has racist elements, and will be racist in practice.



They aren't racist policies. The All white GOP legislative body in Texas is currently working to enact some very racist laws based on ignoring systematic racism.

We have systematic racism in place, and it needs to be addressed through law and legal lenses to undo what are decades/centuries of issues.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
A certain poster is writing like Canada has the same history with Blacks as we do. They don't. Maybe with First Nation people, but not Blacks.


Why do you make such a bogus assumption. ? It is in the articles. or here.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-char ... -1.4970352
That article has nothing about harsher sentencing for blacks versus other races. After all, that is the theme for this thread.


It highlights the racism in Canada, which is what you were trying to state doesn't exist like it does in the US.
The original article is quite clear about the sentencing issues.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:19 pm

casinterest wrote:

They aren't racist policies.


Yes, they are. They will be using race to help decide how someone is sentenced.

casinterest wrote:
We have systematic racism in place, and it needs to be addressed through law and legal lenses to undo what are decades/centuries of issues.


Ok. But why use racism to combat racism?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:43 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

They aren't racist policies.


Yes, they are. They will be using race to help decide how someone is sentenced.


They are used to combat the racism that has created the inequity in place due to racism.
You can't call a corrective policy racism anymore than you can call a football penalty a running play.

fr8mech wrote:
Ok. But why use racism to combat racism?

Once again it isn't racism.


We have to have corrective polices, because as you established the law is the law.

When certain laws were allowed to be broken for so long, you have to take measures to defeat the inherent racism that still exists in the system as we are currently seeing with all of these fake CRT upgroar being pushed by some very large conservative organizations in a quest to destroy public education.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:44 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Ok. But why use racism to combat racism?


As I said, there are some complex situations where policies you might characterize as racist are necessary, even in state organizations.

Simple question: the current demographics of Houston are 45% Latino, 24% white, 23% black, 7% asian. If the current police force were more than 65% white or black (due to past hiring), constituents would be correct to say it didn’t represent their community. Would it be racist to target recruiting of Asian and Latino cops to balance things out?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Would it be racist to target recruiting of Asian and Latino cops to balance things out?


Target recruiting? No, that would not be racist. Giving extra points to someone because they are Asian or Latino? Yes, that would be racist.

casinterest wrote:
Once again it isn't racism.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Because I believe that using race as a measuring stick as to what actions government will take is, by definition, racism. And, you do not.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:02 am

fr8mech wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Would it be racist to target recruiting of Asian and Latino cops to balance things out?


Target recruiting? No, that would not be racist. Giving extra points to someone because they are Asian or Latino? Yes, that would be racist.


Okay, so you can kinda see the logic there. Points are not used in such hiring - the scenario assumes all candidates are qualified. Applicants outside those target groups may be passed over for lack of ‘fit’ though.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:49 am

fr8mech wrote:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Because I believe that using race as a measuring stick as to what actions government will take is, by definition, racism. And, you do not.


You can't redefine corrective actions by Government to be racism if they are combatting racism. Do you label all government punishment against criminals as crimes?
 
johns624
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:15 am

Wouldn't a better ruling say "You CAN'T consider race as a factor when sentencing"?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:23 am

casinterest wrote:

You can't redefine corrective actions by Government to be racism if they are combatting racism. Do you label all government punishment against criminals as crimes?


Oh, I see your argument now. Because it is a law or governmental policy or whatever that addresses racism, it can not be racism itself.

Well, that's wrong. There have been, and still are, all kinds of laws on the books that were/are wrong.

Slavery used to be cool. Homosexuality used to be illegal. Hell, possession of pot is still illegal in plenty of places.

No, you need to do better than "well, the government says it's OK, so it's OK".

Racism is racism is racism. It doesn't matter if the government condones it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:28 am

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

You can't redefine corrective actions by Government to be racism if they are combatting racism. Do you label all government punishment against criminals as crimes?


Oh, I see your argument now. Because it is a law or governmental policy or whatever that addresses racism, it can not be racism itself.

Well, that's wrong. There have been, and still are, all kinds of laws on the books that were/are wrong.

Slavery used to be cool. Homosexuality used to be illegal. Hell, possession of pot is still illegal in plenty of places.

No, you need to do better than "well, the government says it's OK, so it's OK".

Racism is racism is racism. It doesn't matter if the government condones it.


Racism cannot be defined by actions taken to limit racism. You want to throw out red herrings about Slavery, do you see white people being forced into slavery as a corrective action?
Do you see people forced into homosexuality as a corrective action? Do you see people forced to smoke pot as a corrective action ?

You can't say everything is equal and it will just be that way. If that were the case everyone would have stayed away from the Trump Rally in a Sundown town last weekend due to it's inherent racial overtones to the large political base that is still racist within Alabama.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:31 am

johns624 wrote:
Wouldn't a better ruling say "You CAN'T consider race as a factor when sentencing"?


Legally I’d say that’s definitely the best option.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:33 am

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Wouldn't a better ruling say "You CAN'T consider race as a factor when sentencing"?


Legally I’d say that’s definitely the best option.



It just ignores what is the whim of the judge or lawyers. Which could be based on racism.
As nice as that law is , it takes trust in the integrity of all involved.
 
johns624
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:42 am

How does giving a lighter sentence to a defendant today help a totally different person who was given a harsher sentence 20-30 years ago?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:44 am

johns624 wrote:
How does giving a lighter sentence to a defendant today help a totally different person who was given a harsher sentence 20-30 years ago?

It doesn't, but it helps keep the same mistake from being made again.

There are also advocacy groups that are always working to review valid cases .
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:54 am

casinterest wrote:
You want to throw out red herrings


Actually, they're not red herrings. You imply that racist action by the government is OK as long as the racist action is used to combat racism. I just pointed out some instances where the government has been wrong.

casinterest wrote:
As nice as that law is , it takes trust in the integrity of all involved.


It's interesting...you trust the government, but not the participants.

I don't know how judges are chosen in Canada, but I assume there's a way to hold them accountable.

casinterest wrote:
There are also advocacy groups that are always working to review valid cases .


I support those kind of reviews.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:44 am

fr8mech wrote:

And, if someone were able to prove they were not a good fit because they were not Asian or Hispanic, they would have basis for a lawsuit.


Not necessarily. Specific groups cannot be excluded and it’s also illegal to use race as a sole factor. But as long as diversity programs have other criteria they can clear that bar. SCOTUS ruled that programs can still favor groups or women without violating Title VII:

The justices found in United Steelworkers v. Weber in 1979 that Title VII didn’t bar employers from favoring women and minorities.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-lab ... n-quandary
 
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seahawk
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:10 am

casinterest wrote:
It appears that Nova Scotia has reached a point where it recognizes systematic racism(CRT anyone) and is trying to correct for years of harsher sentences.
I see nothing wrong with it. I think with enough databases and statistics, sentences will be handed out with better outcomes related to the crime.


A important step to reduce the white privilege.
 
ltbewr
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Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:14 pm

This policy will most likely affect prosecutors in their sentence recommendations so not want to have them reduced by a judge.
 
bpatus297
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Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok. But why use racism to combat racism?


As I said, there are some complex situations where policies you might characterize as racist are necessary, even in state organizations.

Simple question: the current demographics of Houston are 45% Latino, 24% white, 23% black, 7% asian. If the current police force were more than 65% white or black (due to past hiring), constituents would be correct to say it didn’t represent their community. Would it be racist to target recruiting of Asian and Latino cops to balance things out?


You're view on the make up of the police force way too simplistic. You first have to examine the hiring practices of the PD. Along with the hiring practice, you also have to look at if certain races or ethnicities (since Latino isn't a race) are not applying and why that is or isn't. There are a lot of underling issues, it's not black and white according to the numbers (pun intended).
Last edited by bpatus297 on Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 285
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:07 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
How does giving a lighter sentence to a defendant today help a totally different person who was given a harsher sentence 20-30 years ago?

It doesn't, but it helps keep the same mistake from being made again.

There are also advocacy groups that are always working to review valid cases .


They should not enact a racist law, they need deal with the judges, lawyers, and police that are racist on an case-by-case basis.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:08 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Actually, they're not red herrings. You imply that racist action by the government is OK as long as the racist action is used to combat racism. I just pointed out some instances where the government has been wrong.


They are absolute Red Herrings. You are implying that it is not ok for the Government to help out those that have been disadvantaged and still are disadvantaged due to racists. The current CRT scam being pushed by 90+% white legislatures is nothing but racism. it is not ok, and Government will have to step in for corrective actions.

fr8mech wrote:
It's interesting...you trust the government, but not the participants.

I don't know how judges are chosen in Canada, but I assume there's a way to hold them accountable.


Hopefully they can be. We just had 6 disgraceful judges in the US supreme court issue a political ruling against Executive privilege after rolling over for Trump the last 4 years.
But a lot of participants in Government can't be trusted. We see this with how Political representatives have successfully lied to people for so long that we are now stuck in a 4th wave of Covid, with about 50% of one party not vaccinated.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:17 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Ok. But why use racism to combat racism?


As I said, there are some complex situations where policies you might characterize as racist are necessary, even in state organizations.

Simple question: the current demographics of Houston are 45% Latino, 24% white, 23% black, 7% asian. If the current police force were more than 65% white or black (due to past hiring), constituents would be correct to say it didn’t represent their community. Would it be racist to target recruiting of Asian and Latino cops to balance things out?


You're view on the make up of the police force way too simplistic. You first have to examine the hiring practices of the PD. Along with the hiring practice, you also have to look at if certain races or ethnicities (since Latino isn't a race) are not applying and why that is or isn't. There are a lot of underling issues, it's not black and white according to the numbers (pun intended).


Yes, thank you, well aware of how my industry works. I was simplifying the scenario in response to another complex item being simplified for discussion's sake. The whole point here is that some are approaching very nuanced issues in a far too simplistic fashion.
 
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OA412
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:44 pm

The ruling's goal is to level the playing field: "Data indicates that Black people have been dramatically overrepresented in the justice system in terms of their number, the severity of the sentences they receive, and the length of the time they serve in jail, Wright said.

'This is a move towards justice, not a move to some kind of (preferential treatment of) individuals,

'In order to understand that we need to understand that our system up until this moment, the standard has been injustice for people of African descent.'"

Data suggests that Canadians of African descent receive harsher sentences than their white counterparts, just as is the case in the US. Attempting to correct these wrongs by imposing equivalent sentences, all else being equal, is not racist. This ruling isn't telling judges to hand out more lenient sentences for Black offenders. Racism is white offenders being handed a two-year sentence for a minor offense, while Black offenders are handed a five-year sentence for the same minor offense. Handing all the same two-year sentence is equality before the law, not racism.

In fact, the argument that this ruling and its effects are somehow racist isn't much different from the argument that marriage equality was about special rights. It never was. LGBTQ people were asking for equality under the law. That's exactly what's happening here.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:36 pm

fr8mech wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It's not racism that is being used. It is a tool that represents past racism. It is the same as CRT.
We can't understand how we got where we are without understanding what the driving forces were.

This isn't state sponsored racism in Nova Scotia. It is education of the factors that have gone into years of racism.


If race is being used as a determinant of punishment, then it is racism. I don’t care how it is rationalized.


I get what you’re saying - it’s racist to give white people more lenient punishments than black people for the same crimes.
 
johns624
Posts: 4272
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Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:41 pm

So the courts are saying that the courts have been racist?
I can understand giving the same sentences for the same crimes, but the other part about more of certain minorities being punished is wrong. There are certain areas of cities that are more dangerous than others. Many have being a minority area as the common factor.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: Courts in Nova Scotia urged (required?) to consider race when sentencing

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:03 pm

OA412 wrote:
The ruling's goal is to level the playing field: "Data indicates that Black people have been dramatically overrepresented in the justice system in terms of their number, the severity of the sentences they receive, and the length of the time they serve in jail, Wright said.

'This is a move towards justice, not a move to some kind of (preferential treatment of) individuals,

'In order to understand that we need to understand that our system up until this moment, the standard has been injustice for people of African descent.'"

Data suggests that Canadians of African descent receive harsher sentences than their white counterparts, just as is the case in the US. Attempting to correct these wrongs by imposing equivalent sentences, all else being equal, is not racist. This ruling isn't telling judges to hand out more lenient sentences for Black offenders. Racism is white offenders being handed a two-year sentence for a minor offense, while Black offenders are handed a five-year sentence for the same minor offense. Handing all the same two-year sentence is equality before the law, not racism.

In fact, the argument that this ruling and its effects are somehow racist isn't much different from the argument that marriage equality was about special rights. It never was. LGBTQ people were asking for equality under the law. That's exactly what's happening here.


Re your first quoted point… the use of the word disproportionate in over-representation suggests to the reader that they are somehow more “targeted” as criminals. This is not the case. Black people DO commit more crime per capita than white people:

http://open.lib.umn.edu/socialproblems/ ... its-crime/

We can discuss separately the reasons behind that - and they are mentioned in the referenced piece as various socio-economic factors (in my view: excuses. It doesn’t matter what your background, if you are fortunate enough to live in a mostly-civilised country, there are no valid reasons to commit crime).

This policy requires one simple thing to be enforced: look at each person as an individual and consider the merits of their case in that. Disregard what colour they are (easy to say, maybe not so easy to do for people who have an embedded racism in them). Then monitor the sentencing to see patterns and oust the “bad eggs” who repeatedly oversentence individuals when it can be determined they have a pattern of harsher sentences for people with particular characteristics. In this case, race. Note the use of the word “individuals”. We are all individuals with individual circumstances.

*edit: correct disproportionate to dramatically-

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