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Pi7472000
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Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:28 am

With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:10 am

One year is not long enough to hammer out a comprehensive NHS structure w/bill. Anyway it would get killed by insurance lobbying. The public has an appetite for implementing some kind of NHS in blue areas, but that’s not enough.

Too many in the US have already bought the big insurance line that they’d pay more and have less access to doctors than they do now when the opposite is true in nearly every developed country with an NHS. To really win this pro-universal advocates should target the private sector first. When SMBs and large companies both realize what their savings would be over the current system, many hesitant people will move into the support category.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:23 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


The democrats are going to get crushed in the midterms. The controlling party always looses seats at the midterms.

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:44 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.
 
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seb146
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:08 am

There is a laughable commercial being aired in my area telling people to call Peter DeFazio and demand Pelosi stop the "dangerous socialist agenda". Most people who have insurance have either insurance through ACA (Obamacare) or none at all. We need to go further than ACA.

The biggest laugh, though, are the commercials for the "Christian" based health insurance where everyone pays what they can and every bill is covered, no matter what. How do they not know that is socialist health care?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:14 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.


Universal healthcare is only ‘fringe left’ to people who like having a system running way over cost compared to all developed countries. It’s incredible people want to continue being fleeced.

Even the Koch’s put out a study that this type of reform would save nearly $2 trillion in the next decade.

https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/b ... c4a9bb5321

CMS says we’re going to spend $43 trillion on healthcare in the next decade. There’s no sane reason to be okay with that.

https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics ... c4a9bb5321
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:12 am

LabQuest wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


The democrats are going to get crushed in the midterms. The controlling party always looses seats at the midterms.

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Until there insurance company declines to cover and they end up bankrupt, which won't be possible under a universal system. The leading cause of personal bankruptcies in the US is medical bills. It's been proven time over that universal healthcare will be cheaper for private individuals.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:53 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.


Universal Healthcare is so “fringe left” that it’s supported by every Centre Right party in Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

Even Republicans like Richard Nixon once upon a time supported Universal Healthcare. Mitt Romney supported an insurance mandate form of universal healthcare in Massachusetts that eventually became the basis of Obamacare.

LabQuest wrote:

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Average yearly US health costs per Capita: $11,000
Germany $6,600
Canada $5,400
Australia $5,100
Japan $4,800
UK $4,600

Every other developed nation covers 100% of their population, the US still has 9% uninsured (about 30 million people) and plenty more under insured, with insurance providers desperate to deny as much treatment to their customers as possible.

Go and ask people in any other Developed country what “deductables”, “co-pays”, “in network hospitals”, “coverage zones” are and you’ll get a blank stare.

The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.

Here’s the truth expressed in humorous form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad7DvuLyui8
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:31 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.


100% straight truth. It isn't communism, it's common sense. Healthcare is not a normal marketplace, nor should it be treated as such.
 
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c933103
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:27 am

A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?
 
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stl07
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:45 am

c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?

Which is what Biden proposed. We shall see if it actually happens
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:09 am

c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


That is basically what everyone is talking about. Such a system is what Australia, Germany, Japan, etc. all have. The US is the odd man out.
 
Drafran
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:24 am

LabQuest wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


The democrats are going to get crushed in the midterms. The controlling party always looses seats at the midterms.

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Define "crushed".

Perhaps you weren't alive in 1998 and 2002 when it didn't happen.

Also, perhaps you can define what "most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate" means, without government intervention or employer-based insurance.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:00 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.


Universal Healthcare is so “fringe left” that it’s supported by every Centre Right party in Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

Even Republicans like Richard Nixon once upon a time supported Universal Healthcare. Mitt Romney supported an insurance mandate form of universal healthcare in Massachusetts that eventually became the basis of Obamacare.

LabQuest wrote:

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Average yearly US health costs per Capita: $11,000
Germany $6,600
Canada $5,400
Australia $5,100
Japan $4,800
UK $4,600

Every other developed nation covers 100% of their population, the US still has 9% uninsured (about 30 million people) and plenty more under insured, with insurance providers desperate to deny as much treatment to their customers as possible.

Go and ask people in any other Developed country what “deductables”, “co-pays”, “in network hospitals”, “coverage zones” are and you’ll get a blank stare.

The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.

Here’s the truth expressed in humorous form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad7DvuLyui8


This means that medical insurance for a family is $40K-30K. A minimum wage in many states is $7.50. After taxes and deductions just enough to pay for insurance for q person. There are few houses or apartments that a person earning $10K can have both housing and medical care. Do you suppose that might have anything to do with the homeless crisis in the US? Add to that the unholy alliance of hospital systems, insurance companies, government regulations and licensing and it results in the US being a shithole country for many people in our country. Has anybody noticed that landlords are unhappy, doctors are unhappy, homeless are unhappy, and the lower middle class are unhappy. This system is designed to aid and abet the 1% and to a lesser degree those of us who fall just a little short.

A rich company need a lot of people in that low middle class as workers. They need to earn enough to buy medical care, housing, food, raise and educate children, and retire with some degree of happiness. They also need those of us more fortunate to honor and respect them with a decent living standard. I am f..ing tired of GD Republicans telling me the is communistic.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.


Universal Healthcare is so “fringe left” that it’s supported by every Centre Right party in Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

Even Republicans like Richard Nixon once upon a time supported Universal Healthcare. Mitt Romney supported an insurance mandate form of universal healthcare in Massachusetts that eventually became the basis of Obamacare.

LabQuest wrote:

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Average yearly US health costs per Capita: $11,000
Germany $6,600
Canada $5,400
Australia $5,100
Japan $4,800
UK $4,600

Every other developed nation covers 100% of their population, the US still has 9% uninsured (about 30 million people) and plenty more under insured, with insurance providers desperate to deny as much treatment to their customers as possible.

Go and ask people in any other Developed country what “deductables”, “co-pays”, “in network hospitals”, “coverage zones” are and you’ll get a blank stare.

The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.

Here’s the truth expressed in humorous form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad7DvuLyui8


This means that medical insurance for a family is $40K-30K. A minimum wage in many states is $7.50. After taxes and deductions just enough to pay for insurance for q person. There are few houses or apartments that a person earning $10K can have both housing and medical care. Do you suppose that might have anything to do with the homeless crisis in the US? Add to that the unholy alliance of hospital systems, insurance companies, government regulations and licensing and it results in the US being a shithole country for many people in our country. Has anybody noticed that landlords are unhappy, doctors are unhappy, homeless are unhappy, and the lower middle class are unhappy. This system is designed to aid and abet the 1% and to a lesser degree those of us who fall just a little short.

A rich company need a lot of people in that low middle class as workers. They need to earn enough to buy medical care, housing, food, raise and educate children, and retire with some degree of happiness. They also need those of us more fortunate to honor and respect them with a decent living standard. I am f..ing tired of GD Republicans telling me the is communistic.


Don't let anybody tell you that. All you're expressing is decency - which used to be a kind of currency in America but not much anymore. Anytime someone tells me 'I don't like people telling me what to do with my money' I always respond: 'if we had a decent social safety net - including healthcare - nobody would talk about who's paying what.'
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:43 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms?

Progressives can yell and push as much as they want. The thing that allowed the ACA to pass was that Democrats held larger majorities in both chambers in 2009 and 2010 and were able to get the 60 votes to invoke cloture and then pass it as reconciliation. That's not the case today where they only have about 5 seats to spare in the House and no margin for error in the Senate for reconciliation (much less for regular order). The fact that both chambers are under Democrat control is meaningless if the rules of one chamber prevent the passing of legislation through regular order. In order to truly get stuff done, either minority Senators join to invoke cloture or the majority needs at least 60 seats in the Senate.

Pi7472000 wrote:
We need universal healthcare in the U.S.

We do, but it's still not detailed exactly HOW that plan will come to fruition. Will it be a hybrid approach where private industry exists but prices are subsidized? Will private industry be taken over by the government? Will there be a mix where you can opt out and retain private insurance? That's not the sort of thing that can be hashed out in 2 years, especially since no state has yet provided a blueprint to build off of.

Pi7472000 wrote:
I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right.

I wouldn't bet on it. The Senate, MAYBE. Incumbents usually have an advantage. If Warnock and Kelly can retain their seats, and Cortez-Masto and Hassan can fend off their GOP challengers, then it'll be a 50-50 Senate again, unless Dems can pick off PA, WI, FL, or NC. As for the House, it'll depend on redistricting and voter turnout. Given that cities grew while rural districts had population losses, Republicans are in a tight spot in many states: do they keep Dems packed in order to shore up vulnerable Reps or do they split cities and risk defeat later in the decade? This is how MI and FL became more evenly divided in 2018 rather than lopsided margins for Republicans.

Pi7472000 wrote:
Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?

Manchin and Sinema don't need to do anything. Republicans themselves will ensure that universal healthcare is stopped even before it begins. You need to vote to open debate. In a 50-50 Senate, they can vote with Democrats, but to invoke cloture, you need 60 votes. So whether they stick with Democrats or defect to Republicans, the result will be the same. And I'm sure the Parliamentarian will not allow a budget resolution to be used to pass universal healthcare since it would be out of scope. Otherwise, what's stopping the House and Senate from passing dummy budget resolutions and then packing it with whatever they want?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:44 pm

Universal healthcare has been achieved by most advanced countries. The US failure to have it is mostly due to the inefficiency and corruption within the US style of government. I do not think simply adding money on top of an inefficient and corrupt system will realize universal healthcare in the US. If somebody like Elon Musk had today’s Medicare/Medicaid budget to design a universal healthcare system, then yes he could just copy Germany or Canada or Japan, and the job would be done. Without tax increases.

Today the US already spends $11k per capita on health care. About $6k per capita is government funded (the same as Germany). That’s not including the massive US private health insurance market. (!!!!!). We are already are being taxed for universal healthcare now, just as Germans are.

There are lobbyists through the health care system in the US who will prevent fixing these problems, because people are making an absolute fortune from the corrupt system we have.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:54 pm

Drafran wrote:
Perhaps you weren't alive in 1998 and 2002 when it didn't happen.

These two years were exceptions.

1998 was backlash against the Clinton impeachment. Republicans lost seats in the House but lost none in the Senate.

2002 was yet another exception, strengthening Bush's hand for the War on Terror after 9/11, though not significantly.

Both years had a significant event prior to the election that allowed the president's party to make gains in either chamber.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:59 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Today the US government already spends $11k per capita on health care.


Aside from administrative overhead and high insurance costs for facilities and practitioners, one of the big drivers of cost in the US system is triage and emergency treatment. According to 2019 CDC data only slightly more than half of all doctor visits are to a GP:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/physician-visits.htm

One of the ways Germany, Japan, etc. keep costs reasonable is mandating that every insured person have preventive checks according to age, work, and lifestyle factors. If implemented in the US this could dramatically lower costs over time. People will stop finding out they have issues when they go to the ER with a freak out.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:03 pm

Covid has proved one thing completely. We are all affected by someone else's health. We need Universal Healthcare. We will not get it because there are uneducated folks that continue to prop up the "Private Healthcare" system that wastes enormous amounts of time and money processing insurance payments and making up ghost numbers for procedures , to bill uninsured and insured , and differently insured people separately.

The healthcare lobby does a great job of lying about the "efficiency" of private healthcare, when the real truth is that so much expense goes into creating indirect paper flows for evaluation, treatment, and prescriptions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690367/

it is an old 2008 article, but it highlights much of what still persists.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:08 pm

c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


In France we have a 2 tiers system but the public part doesn't have "defects". It's really minutiae, like having your own hospital room instead of sharing with another patient. You might be able to jump the queue a bit on some non urgent procedure, but often times the best surgeons have a foot in both systems, so by paying you get the same surgeon, a bit earlier, and you see him in a fancier office, and have a fancier room : not really worth it.

BTW the crazy US insurance system is actually helping financing the French one, sending patients for heart surgeries because they're much cheaper here. And they're billed something like 30% over price so it's win win. UK and Irish patients also come because we don't have long waiting lists.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:12 pm

Aesma wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


In France we have a 2 tiers system but the public part doesn't have "defects". It's really minutiae, like having your own hospital room instead of sharing with another patient. You might be able to jump the queue a bit on some non urgent procedure, but often times the best surgeons have a foot in both systems, so by paying you get the same surgeon, a bit earlier, and you see him in a fancier office, and have a fancier room : not really worth it.

BTW the crazy US insurance system is actually helping financing the French one, sending patients for heart surgeries because they're much cheaper here. And they're billed something like 30% over price so it's win win. UK and Irish patients also come because we don't have long waiting lists.


Same in North America - a lot of dentists and surgeons in Mexico get excellent side business from treating Americans. Even with insurance, for some services it is cheaper to fly to Mexico and have procedures done by someone with good reputation there.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Even with insurance, for some services it is cheaper to fly to Mexico and have procedures done by someone with good reputation there.

That makes total sense if you live next to the border or if your benefits (if you have them) are really poor.

I had a coworker who would fly for dental work to Mexico because "it was cheaper". This, despite the fact that he had good insurance through the company (he was paying for the highest tiered plan without a deductible, just copays, and a dental allowance of $2000/year).

How can you possibly justify paying to fly to Mexico to have a basic cleaning or filling when your insurance already covers that for the year? Heck, I had crown lengthening surgery done in January 2020 and blew through my dental benefits for the year, but I still went and had a cleaning after the office reopened later in September. Cleaning was about $150. Would have been more expensive to fly to Mexico, stay at a hotel, do the cleaning, and fly back.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:25 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Even with insurance, for some services it is cheaper to fly to Mexico and have procedures done by someone with good reputation there.

That makes total sense if you live next to the border or if your benefits (if you have them) are really poor.

I had a coworker who would fly for dental work to Mexico because "it was cheaper". This, despite the fact that he had good insurance through the company (he was paying for the highest tiered plan without a deductible, just copays, and a dental allowance of $2000/year).

How can you possibly justify paying to fly to Mexico to have a basic cleaning or filling when your insurance already covers that for the year? Heck, I had crown lengthening surgery done in January 2020 and blew through my dental benefits for the year, but I still went and had a cleaning after the office reopened later in September. Cleaning was about $150. Would have been more expensive to fly to Mexico, stay at a hotel, do the cleaning, and fly back.


I wasn’t talking about going for cleanings - I don’t know anyone that has done that. But there are plenty who have gone for root canals, orthodontics, and oral surgery.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:55 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Even with insurance, for some services it is cheaper to fly to Mexico and have procedures done by someone with good reputation there.

That makes total sense if you live next to the border or if your benefits (if you have them) are really poor.

I had a coworker who would fly for dental work to Mexico because "it was cheaper". This, despite the fact that he had good insurance through the company (he was paying for the highest tiered plan without a deductible, just copays, and a dental allowance of $2000/year).

How can you possibly justify paying to fly to Mexico to have a basic cleaning or filling when your insurance already covers that for the year? Heck, I had crown lengthening surgery done in January 2020 and blew through my dental benefits for the year, but I still went and had a cleaning after the office reopened later in September. Cleaning was about $150. Would have been more expensive to fly to Mexico, stay at a hotel, do the cleaning, and fly back.


People who need multiple crowns replace, more than 1 root canals, or an implant. The later in the US typically can require a root canal/extraction and cost about $6000. Hence that trip across the border.

An acquaintance/opthamologist was an early provider of cataract surgery surgery and ended up with another ophth. establishing a clinic throughout the most of two states Costs to patients - a fraction of what hospitals wanted for the same service. And, super bonus, one of the great employers for lower paid workers.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:34 pm

I want to call out I was wrong about US Govt spending 11k per capita. That is the total public+private spending. The government soends around 6k per capita, in line with Germany’s public expenditure on health care.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Even with insurance, for some services it is cheaper to fly to Mexico and have procedures done by someone with good reputation there.

That makes total sense if you live next to the border or if your benefits (if you have them) are really poor.

I had a coworker who would fly for dental work to Mexico because "it was cheaper". This, despite the fact that he had good insurance through the company (he was paying for the highest tiered plan without a deductible, just copays, and a dental allowance of $2000/year).

How can you possibly justify paying to fly to Mexico to have a basic cleaning or filling when your insurance already covers that for the year? Heck, I had crown lengthening surgery done in January 2020 and blew through my dental benefits for the year, but I still went and had a cleaning after the office reopened later in September. Cleaning was about $150. Would have been more expensive to fly to Mexico, stay at a hotel, do the cleaning, and fly back.


People who need multiple crowns replace, more than 1 root canals, or an implant. The later in the US typically can require a root canal/extraction and cost about $6000. Hence that trip across the border.

An acquaintance/opthamologist was an early provider of cataract surgery surgery and ended up with another ophth. establishing a clinic throughout the most of two states Costs to patients - a fraction of what hospitals wanted for the same service. And, super bonus, one of the great employers for lower paid workers.


If the US had a cash market like it did in 1920, there would be many cost innovations that would have made sticker price for many services much lower than today. Similarly, college tuition was much cheaper in the past when people generally paid in cash.

The thing that is great about today’s system is there is far more MONEY to be made in health care and higher education than there was under the old system. So our system is fabulous from that perspective.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
I wasn’t talking about going for cleanings - I don’t know anyone that has done that. But there are plenty who have gone for root canals, orthodontics, and oral surgery.

I know what you meant. I'm talking about a coworker who really didn't need much work with his mouth; he only needed a couple of fillings, which would have cost him nothing given our allowance. I brought my example that after I exceeded the annual maximum for dental benefits, a regular cleaning was cheaper than flying to Mexico for the same service.

Yes there are many other major surgeries that require more money and Mexican doctors can provide a suitable alternative. But there's a trade-off. If your insurance is good and you have a reasonable low out-of-pocket maximum, it's likely that the surgery down there may require more investment than having it here (suppose your out of pocket maximum is $5000; a surgery in the US will cost $7000 but a Mexican doctor can do it for $4000; do you max out your OOP so you have your plan cover the tab for the rest of the year or do you fly to Mexico, pay $4000+flight and hotel, then come back without having used any part of your insurance?).

If all your going down there is for a routine exam and what not, that's just a waste of money.

If you don't have good insurance or require services that will cost more out of pocket in the US than in Mexico, then absolutely it makes sense. If that same surgery referenced above still leaves you below your OOP max, then it makes sense to go for the cheaper option.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16470
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:32 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I wasn’t talking about going for cleanings - I don’t know anyone that has done that. But there are plenty who have gone for root canals, orthodontics, and oral surgery.

I know what you meant. I'm talking about a coworker who really didn't need much work with his mouth; he only needed a couple of fillings, which would have cost him nothing given our allowance. I brought my example that after I exceeded the annual maximum for dental benefits, a regular cleaning was cheaper than flying to Mexico for the same service.

Yes there are many other major surgeries that require more money and Mexican doctors can provide a suitable alternative. But there's a trade-off. If your insurance is good and you have a reasonable low out-of-pocket maximum, it's likely that the surgery down there may require more investment than having it here (suppose your out of pocket maximum is $5000; a surgery in the US will cost $7000 but a Mexican doctor can do it for $4000; do you max out your OOP so you have your plan cover the tab for the rest of the year or do you fly to Mexico, pay $4000+flight and hotel, then come back without having used any part of your insurance?).

If all your going down there is for a routine exam and what not, that's just a waste of money.

If you don't have good insurance or require services that will cost more out of pocket in the US than in Mexico, then absolutely it makes sense. If that same surgery referenced above still leaves you below your OOP max, then it makes sense to go for the cheaper option.


As you suggest, it would really depend on the specific procedure and someone's insurance limits. There are huge potential cost savings in Mexico on some procedures versus others. Whereas LASIK in Mexico is about 50% cheaper than in the US, a knee replacement or hip resurfacing is 1/3 the cost, and a spinal fusion is about 1/5 the cost.
 
flyguy89
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:38 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I doubt the Dems will have the house after the midterms and they really don't control the Senate at present. They need all their Caucus and Manchin and Simema are not slam dunk yes votes on the fringe left stuff like universal health care so the prospects of it even going to a vote are slim.


Universal Healthcare is so “fringe left” that it’s supported by every Centre Right party in Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

Even Republicans like Richard Nixon once upon a time supported Universal Healthcare. Mitt Romney supported an insurance mandate form of universal healthcare in Massachusetts that eventually became the basis of Obamacare.

LabQuest wrote:

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.


Average yearly US health costs per Capita: $11,000
Germany $6,600
Canada $5,400
Australia $5,100
Japan $4,800
UK $4,600

Every other developed nation covers 100% of their population, the US still has 9% uninsured (about 30 million people) and plenty more under insured, with insurance providers desperate to deny as much treatment to their customers as possible.

Go and ask people in any other Developed country what “deductables”, “co-pays”, “in network hospitals”, “coverage zones” are and you’ll get a blank stare.

The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.

Here’s the truth expressed in humorous form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad7DvuLyui8


This means that medical insurance for a family is $40K-30K. A minimum wage in many states is $7.50. After taxes and deductions just enough to pay for insurance for q person.

That is NOT the cost individuals pay out of pocket for health insurance. Last year, the average cost for health insurance was $7,470 for individuals and $21,342 for families. Roughly 3/4 of THAT cost is covered by employers meaning for a family the annual out of pocket cost is roughly $5,588.

https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs ... -findings/

Additionally, the percent of hourly workers actually making the federal minimum wage or less was just 2.3% as of 2017.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimu ... 7/home.htm

I’m open to a debate on the merits of a single-payer system, but these fantasy narratives tossed out there sometimes don’t come close to the lived reality for the huge majority of Americans. Most people are actually generally healthy and don’t use that much health care, and the vast majority do no/are not going into any type of medical debt. To sum up, medical debt and high costs are problems to be sure but are abstract problems to the vast majority. Want single-payer? Then IMO you need to focus on persuading why and to what extent it would benefit this majority (how much more in taxes, what benefits, what are they giving up but what are they getting in return, etc).
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16470
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:56 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

Universal Healthcare is so “fringe left” that it’s supported by every Centre Right party in Europe, Australia, NZ, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

Even Republicans like Richard Nixon once upon a time supported Universal Healthcare. Mitt Romney supported an insurance mandate form of universal healthcare in Massachusetts that eventually became the basis of Obamacare.



Average yearly US health costs per Capita: $11,000
Germany $6,600
Canada $5,400
Australia $5,100
Japan $4,800
UK $4,600

Every other developed nation covers 100% of their population, the US still has 9% uninsured (about 30 million people) and plenty more under insured, with insurance providers desperate to deny as much treatment to their customers as possible.

Go and ask people in any other Developed country what “deductables”, “co-pays”, “in network hospitals”, “coverage zones” are and you’ll get a blank stare.

The reason why a lot of Americans don’t want universal healthcare is they’ve been brainwashed to think it’s communism.

Here’s the truth expressed in humorous form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad7DvuLyui8


This means that medical insurance for a family is $40K-30K. A minimum wage in many states is $7.50. After taxes and deductions just enough to pay for insurance for q person.

That is NOT the cost individuals pay out of pocket for health insurance. Last year, the average cost for health insurance was $7,470 for individuals and $21,342 for families. Roughly 3/4 of THAT cost is covered by employers meaning for a family the annual out of pocket cost is roughly $5,588.

https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs ... -findings/

Additionally, the percent of hourly workers actually making the federal minimum wage or less was just 2.3% as of 2017.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimu ... 7/home.htm

I’m open to a debate on the merits of a single-payer system, but these fantasy narratives tossed out there sometimes don’t come close to the lived reality for the huge majority of Americans. Most people are actually generally healthy and don’t use that much health care, and the vast majority do no/are not going into any type of medical debt. To sum up, medical debt and high costs are problems to be sure but are abstract problems to the vast majority. Want single-payer? Then IMO you need to focus on persuading why and to what extent it would benefit this majority (how much more in taxes, what benefits, what are they giving up but what are they getting in return, etc).


The argument has been made for years but not articulated well. Based on serious studies done at various public health programs, for someone making $75K a monthly healthcare tax of $200+ would be significantly less than the averages out there now. This $2.5K increase in taxes annually would save roughly $2K out of pocket - even more for someone with family coverage. The benefits are not having to start over when you change jobs, not having to sift through endless forms asking for the same information every time, and not relying on networks, groups, and other nonsense. You get online, look up reviews of the doctor or clinic you want, and go. If you want to be able to get elective stuff at cheaper rates, or cut the line for treatment priority on non-critical matters, you can pay a little more for supplemental private. That's what Australians, Japanese, and Germans do. For companies the benefits are even more attractive....once they run the numbers the only employers who wouldn't be for it would be Aetna, BCBS, and all the other profiteers. Hospitals, at least the kind where the seven-figure salary administrators tell TV channels they 'don't know what they charge', probably won't like it either. That's the rub.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:04 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
That is NOT the cost individuals pay out of pocket for health insurance. Last year, the average cost for health insurance was $7,470 for individuals and $21,342 for families. Roughly 3/4 of THAT cost is covered by employers meaning for a family the annual out of pocket cost is roughly $5,588.


The per capita cost includes insurance premiums for individuals, deductibles, copays, out of pocket costs, medications and the taxes for government services like Medicare and Medicaid. Add those all up and you get on average $11,000 per year per American, more than double the average of every other developed country, for a system that can’t even insure 30 million Americans and under insures tens of millions more.

I’m open to a debate on the merits of a single-payer system, but these fantasy narratives tossed out there sometimes don’t come close to the lived reality for the huge majority of Americans. Most people are actually generally healthy and don’t use that much health care, and the vast majority do no/are not going into any type of medical debt. To sum up, medical debt and high costs are problems to be sure but are abstract problems to the vast majority. Want single-payer? Then IMO you need to focus on persuading why and to what extent it would benefit this majority (how much more in taxes, what benefits, what are they giving up but what are they getting in return, etc).


70 million Americans have Medical debt. 600,000 bankruptcies due medical debt. 1/3rd of all go fund me’s - medical debt. This doesn’t happen in any other developed country.

The thing with healthcare is you don’t know when you need it and can’t shop around. You may be perfectly healthy one day and then in the back of an ambulance being rushed to a hospital the next, and that’s hardly the time to decide what kind of treatment you can afford.

Even in the nations with use a private universal system (Switzerland and Germany) the government regulation of the system is so strict they won’t allow the price gouging and denial of care that American health providers do.

It must seem incredible to Americans that are faced with the mind boggling choices in selecting insurance plans, the negotiations over treatment when they get sick, the doctors negotiations with insurers over treatment and the hidden and horrifying costs of it goes sour. In every other developed nation it’s - get sick, go seek healthcare, get treated, end of story.

The best example IMO is the UK NHS. Every single thing is a government service, hospitals, community clinics, doctors, nurses, outpatients, paramedics, every ancillary service you can think of. All under one taxpayer funded roof, a true service you don’t need to worry about how to pay for it.

Two great documentary movies I think all Americans should watch, both at full length:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgU0I8rl-ps

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xpk9AuJ4J18

Where to Invade Next is more about socialist policies in general, and Sicko is healthcare specific.

But both are great viewing if you haven’t seen them. They show the advantages of a society that looks out for each other rather than one where you only worry about yourself.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:20 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:

The thing with healthcare is you don’t know when you need it and can’t shop around. You may be perfectly healthy one day and then in the back of an ambulance being rushed to a hospital the next, and that’s hardly the time to decide what kind of treatment you can afford.


To touch on 2 points you made, I think you effectively summarize the fatal flaws of the US.

The first being that too much is based on the idea that everything is going ok in the moment. You’ve got a great job with great insurance and you’re healthy….right now. But tomorrow you lose your job, and the next day you get sick, and your life is ruined. It’s even possible to lose your job/insurance because you got sick. Then what?

The second is that despite all the “United we stand” nonsense, Americans generally still have too much of that lone survivor, I’m out for me and everyone else be damned mentality. COVID brought it out nicely. Do these simple things so your neighbors/family/friends won’t get sick and die…and people wouldn’t do it. If letting other Americans die or go into crippling debt saves others money, people are ok with it.

Main issue here though is lobbying. 75% of a politicians constituents could be for universal healthcare, but that big check from the lobbyist says no. So the vote is no.
 
StarAC17
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


The two tier system works if there are conditions on it, it cannot be a 100% free marketplace like other sectors.

One of the things the Britain does to keep them in balance is that doctors have to do a certain length of time in the NHS before going into private practice. Thus preventing a doctor from going private immediately, this allows the NHS to have doctors in the system and ensure that they all can't go private. Prices are also capped to prevent bidding wars for services. I support the two tier system for non-essential services but you need to keep it in check as they systems need to balance each other. Even in Canada where the universal system is run provincially dental, optometry, prescription drugs, physiotherapy, therapy aren't covered by the government and you usually get extended health through your employer.

The biggest thing with the wait times coming from Canada is that there is simply not enough funding in the system to fulfill capacity. Covid has exposed this issue but it was always there.

Healthcare like private business will face highs and lows of demand on their services but with the system operating near or above capacity and when there is a surge like a pandemic or a bad cold and flu season then the system gets to its limit. For healthcare to work properly you need that capacity which if strictly looking at the books is inefficient because 100% is ideal as there is no wasted capacity. For healthcare to actually work you need 10-25% spare capacity to handle things like Covid or any local outbreak of other infectious diseases. Taxpayers don't like this because higher taxes but they don't like the wait times either.

Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


The democrats are going to get slaughtered in 2022. Not because of people like AOC and the squad.
They are going to get slaughtered because Biden isn't fighting for basic things and letting a DINO like Joe Manchin dictate legislation and democrats aren't willing to fight the fight on things like the $15 minimum wage, Infrastructure and healthcare.

Biden is afraid to take the risk and call Manchin and Sinema's bluff and bait them to blow up the bill. Then in 2022 he can blame the democrats in their primaries who stopped him from achieving his desired goals.
This is exactly how the GOP does things and they get far more done than the democrats. Unfortunately for the average American GOP legislation doesn't really benefit them.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:

This means that medical insurance for a family is $40K-30K. A minimum wage in many states is $7.50. After taxes and deductions just enough to pay for insurance for q person.

That is NOT the cost individuals pay out of pocket for health insurance. Last year, the average cost for health insurance was $7,470 for individuals and $21,342 for families. Roughly 3/4 of THAT cost is covered by employers meaning for a family the annual out of pocket cost is roughly $5,588.

https://www.kff.org/report-section/ehbs ... -findings/

Additionally, the percent of hourly workers actually making the federal minimum wage or less was just 2.3% as of 2017.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimu ... 7/home.htm

I’m open to a debate on the merits of a single-payer system, but these fantasy narratives tossed out there sometimes don’t come close to the lived reality for the huge majority of Americans. Most people are actually generally healthy and don’t use that much health care, and the vast majority do no/are not going into any type of medical debt. To sum up, medical debt and high costs are problems to be sure but are abstract problems to the vast majority. Want single-payer? Then IMO you need to focus on persuading why and to what extent it would benefit this majority (how much more in taxes, what benefits, what are they giving up but what are they getting in return, etc).


The argument has been made for years but not articulated well. Based on serious studies done at various public health programs, for someone making $75K a monthly healthcare tax of $200+ would be significantly less than the averages out there now. This $2.5K increase in taxes annually would save roughly $2K out of pocket - even more for someone with family coverage.

Unfortunately we never see reasonable or well-articulated plans like this but rather only the fever dreams of Bernie Bros who posit plans that don’t even exist in "socialist" Europe.

sierrakilo44 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
That is NOT the cost individuals pay out of pocket for health insurance. Last year, the average cost for health insurance was $7,470 for individuals and $21,342 for families. Roughly 3/4 of THAT cost is covered by employers meaning for a family the annual out of pocket cost is roughly $5,588.


The per capita cost includes insurance premiums for individuals, deductibles, copays, out of pocket costs, medications and the taxes for government services like Medicare and Medicaid. Add those all up and you get on average $11,000 per year per American

Which are much more widely variable costs than insurance premiums. $11K is far from the modal expenses most people incur. The vast majority of people in the US are not paying anywhere near $10-$40,000 annually out of pocket for healthcare. Not necessarily meaning this as a defense of the current system, just the realpolitik.


sierrakilo44 wrote:
70 million Americans have Medical debt. 600,000 bankruptcies due medical debt. 1/3rd of all go fund me’s - medical debt. This doesn’t happen in any other developed country.

Sure, but again that just reinforces the point…80% of Americans don’t have medical debt. Harping on something that isn’t the reality for 8/10 people won’t push universal healthcare over the finish line.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12683
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:39 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Too many in the US have already bought the big insurance line that they’d pay more and have less access to doctors than they do now when the opposite is true in nearly every developed country with an NHS.


Surprising realy. The healthcare system is one of the most, if not the most expensive of all the developed world, and Americans don't have the highest access to healthcare and do not reach the highest age on average.

John Oliver did a piece on Ambulance services, quite interesting. The most surprising thing: Ambulance services aren't deemed essential services like the police or Firesercives. So they're private companies that just could go broke, or have big private equity parties buying them, guess what will happen then........

Don't understand how Americans are led to believe that their system is the absolute best and not just demanding to have a public healthcare system. If people want to have private healthcare, fine, but there needs to be a level of healthcare for everyone.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12683
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:42 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
70 million Americans have Medical debt. 600,000 bankruptcies due medical debt. 1/3rd of all go fund me’s - medical debt. This doesn’t happen in any other developed country.

Sure, but again that just reinforces the point…80% of Americans don’t have medical debt. Harping on something that isn’t the reality for 8/10 people won’t push universal healthcare over the finish line.


oh wow, you do not care about 20% of your fellow Americans? Or the stress it causes, or the inflexibility of the labor market because healthcare is mostly tied with a job and thus your employer.

I guess that is also a position to take.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
70 million Americans have Medical debt. 600,000 bankruptcies due medical debt. 1/3rd of all go fund me’s - medical debt. This doesn’t happen in any other developed country.

Sure, but again that just reinforces the point…80% of Americans don’t have medical debt. Harping on something that isn’t the reality for 8/10 people won’t push universal healthcare over the finish line.


oh wow, you do not care about 20% of your fellow Americans? Or the stress it causes, or the inflexibility of the labor market because healthcare is mostly tied with a job and thus your employer.

I guess that is also a position to take.

It’s just the reality of the situation. People are naturally risk-averse and asking them to support a very disruptive change based on something that isn’t a reality for the vast majority of Americans is going to be a tough sell. Add to that the particularities of inefficiency most people associate with the American bureaucracy that would administrate the system. There just isn’t a lot of faith out there that the federal government could successfully run such a system on par with small highly-centralized European countries.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:22 pm

Social Security and Medicare have some of the highest payout to providers and the lowest administration expenses in the industry. It is also important to remember that the overly complicated billing systems and manner of settling insurance claims by the industry has been corrupted and compromised the the medical/insurance to raises prices and not for efficiency.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:48 pm

All you have to do is watch tv shows like Dr Pimple Popper to see how applying the US medical system is. On tonight’s show Roger has two sheep’s testicle sized growths growing on his face. He was uninsured and couldn’t get help. This wouldn’t be an issue in nearly all developed developed countries with universal health care. The growths never would have gotten anywhere near this size.
 
johns624
Posts: 4258
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
All you have to do is watch tv shows like Dr Pimple Popper to see how applying the US medical system is. On tonight’s show Roger has two sheep’s testicle sized growths growing on his face. He was uninsured and couldn’t get help. This wouldn’t be an issue in nearly all developed developed countries with universal health care. The growths never would have gotten anywhere near this size.
Maybe, maybe not. I've known plenty of people who had insurance and didn't use it. I've known people with Delta Dental never get cleanings or fillings and then just get their teeth pulled when it got too bad. Another needed a knee replacement but just kept popping ibuprofen until he was hospitalized with stomach bleeding. He had a great BC/BS plan. Besides, I would never use "reality TV" as an example of anything. Reality TV, aint.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5811
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:44 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


The two tier system works if there are conditions on it, it cannot be a 100% free marketplace like other sectors.

One of the things the Britain does to keep them in balance is that doctors have to do a certain length of time in the NHS before going into private practice. Thus preventing a doctor from going private immediately, this allows the NHS to have doctors in the system and ensure that they all can't go private. Prices are also capped to prevent bidding wars for services. I support the two tier system for non-essential services but you need to keep it in check as they systems need to balance each other.

But isn't that a way of exploiting young inexperienced doctors? (Public place salary are lower than private thus cannot attract private doctors - So those with less bargaining power aka in this case those with less experience, are forced to work for it for less than they could otherwise earn - Unless that's considered a return by them to training they received)
Even in Canada where the universal system is run provincially dental, optometry, prescription drugs, physiotherapy, therapy aren't covered by the government and you usually get extended health through your employer.

The biggest thing with the wait times coming from Canada is that there is simply not enough funding in the system to fulfill capacity. Covid has exposed this issue but it was always there.

Amid aging population across developed countries, is it realistic for a public health system in such countries to remain properly funded?
Healthcare like private business will face highs and lows of demand on their services but with the system operating near or above capacity and when there is a surge like a pandemic or a bad cold and flu season then the system gets to its limit. For healthcare to work properly you need that capacity which if strictly looking at the books is inefficient because 100% is ideal as there is no wasted capacity. For healthcare to actually work you need 10-25% spare capacity to handle things like Covid or any local outbreak of other infectious diseases. Taxpayers don't like this because higher taxes but they don't like the wait times either.

That's a trade off that need to be made no matter it's public or privately funded
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:57 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Sure, but again that just reinforces the point…80% of Americans don’t have medical debt. Harping on something that isn’t the reality for 8/10 people won’t push universal healthcare over the finish line.


oh wow, you do not care about 20% of your fellow Americans? Or the stress it causes, or the inflexibility of the labor market because healthcare is mostly tied with a job and thus your employer.

I guess that is also a position to take.

It’s just the reality of the situation. People are naturally risk-averse and asking them to support a very disruptive change based on something that isn’t a reality for the vast majority of Americans is going to be a tough sell. Add to that the particularities of inefficiency most people associate with the American bureaucracy that would administrate the system. There just isn’t a lot of faith out there that the federal government could successfully run such a system on par with small highly-centralized European countries.


The US has Medicaid (75million?), Medicare (61million) and veterans (70million). Don't know if these numbers are right, but it seems that a large portion of Americans already is receiving some kind of healthcare from the government. Why not just give the job to the Department of Veterans Affairs?

Germany has a good healthcare system and it is a federal state of 83million. It is just the will to do it.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:29 pm

c933103 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
A number countries outside the US actually have two tier system, public and private, with the public system providing service at affordable rate to most citizens, but come with various defects like not enough resources and long queue times, and those who want faster or more premium service can attend private healthcare. That seems to be more workable than something "universal"?


The two tier system works if there are conditions on it, it cannot be a 100% free marketplace like other sectors.

One of the things the Britain does to keep them in balance is that doctors have to do a certain length of time in the NHS before going into private practice. Thus preventing a doctor from going private immediately, this allows the NHS to have doctors in the system and ensure that they all can't go private. Prices are also capped to prevent bidding wars for services. I support the two tier system for non-essential services but you need to keep it in check as they systems need to balance each other.

But isn't that a way of exploiting young inexperienced doctors? (Public place salary are lower than private thus cannot attract private doctors - So those with less bargaining power aka in this case those with less experience, are forced to work for it for less than they could otherwise earn - Unless that's considered a return by them to training they received)


When you are new you start at the bottom and that is way for the two tier British system to not fall into a completely private system due to it being more lucrative. You have to do a minimum time in the public system.

I hope someone from the UK can chime in but I remember from the Michael Moore movie Sicko which was released in 2007 (not the greatest example I know) that the NHS doctor earned something like $100,000 pounds a year which is USD $137,000. Keep in mind that this is a GP and in the UK under the NHS the infrastructure is already there and all of the nurses and associated staff are also employed by the NHS so that is a salary. While a US GP would earn far more they would have to pay their staff, malpractice/liability insurance, rent a clinic etc. None of those costs would have to be assumed by the doctor.

Also they get bonuses for positive health outcomes. If they get a patient to quit smoking or lose weight they get paid more.

Even in Canada where the universal system is run provincially dental, optometry, prescription drugs, physiotherapy, therapy aren't covered by the government and you usually get extended health through your employer.

The biggest thing with the wait times coming from Canada is that there is simply not enough funding in the system to fulfill capacity. Covid has exposed this issue but it was always there.

Amid aging population across developed countries, is it realistic for a public health system in such countries to remain properly funded?


I think if its clearly explained to the taxpayers that this is the cost of the system and it isn't mired in in-efficiency and corruption then people will pay the higher taxes for it.
The reason that say the Scandinavian countries accept the tax levels they have is that that money in used very well for the society where in the US and even in Canada the money is often used poorly.

The alternative is that some people are waiting or dying. We are going to the polls in 3 weeks in Canada and this question is very much on the ballot with the conservatives suggesting some kind of two tier system.

Healthcare like private business will face highs and lows of demand on their services but with the system operating near or above capacity and when there is a surge like a pandemic or a bad cold and flu season then the system gets to its limit. For healthcare to work properly you need that capacity which if strictly looking at the books is inefficient because 100% is ideal as there is no wasted capacity. For healthcare to actually work you need 10-25% spare capacity to handle things like Covid or any local outbreak of other infectious diseases. Taxpayers don't like this because higher taxes but they don't like the wait times either.

That's a trade off that need to be made no matter it's public or privately funded


That's fine but when you get an event like Covid then there might not be the ability to get treated if you need it and you will face delays.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3442
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

oh wow, you do not care about 20% of your fellow Americans? Or the stress it causes, or the inflexibility of the labor market because healthcare is mostly tied with a job and thus your employer.

I guess that is also a position to take.

It’s just the reality of the situation. People are naturally risk-averse and asking them to support a very disruptive change based on something that isn’t a reality for the vast majority of Americans is going to be a tough sell. Add to that the particularities of inefficiency most people associate with the American bureaucracy that would administrate the system. There just isn’t a lot of faith out there that the federal government could successfully run such a system on par with small highly-centralized European countries.


The US has Medicaid (75million?), Medicare (61million) and veterans (70million). Don't know if these numbers are right, but it seems that a large portion of Americans already is receiving some kind of healthcare from the government. Why not just give the job to the Department of Veterans Affairs?

Germany has a good healthcare system and it is a federal state of 83million. It is just the will to do it.

Medicare and Medicaid figures are correct, but VHA is only about 9 million enrollees. It would disrupt health coverage for some 56% of the country…it’s a big boat to rock.
 
Drafran
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:43 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Perhaps you weren't alive in 1998 and 2002 when it didn't happen.

These two years were exceptions.

1998 was backlash against the Clinton impeachment. Republicans lost seats in the House but lost none in the Senate.

2002 was yet another exception, strengthening Bush's hand for the War on Terror after 9/11, though not significantly.

Both years had a significant event prior to the election that allowed the president's party to make gains in either chamber.


I'm not saying they weren't exceptions, and understandably resulted from significant events. But getting rid of Trump and January 6 were certainly significant events. Events that are still front page news. If Democratic leadership does a countrywide "Stacey Abrams" (get registered and get out the vote), we could potentially see a third. The horrors and potential horrors of Trump's evil minions in local, state, and federal government could get smart people to the polls and keep the Republicans where they belong: the minority.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24070
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:19 am

I think those who are on ventilators and are sent home after being diagnosed with covid need to be labeled ineligible for ACA or Medicare or insurance at all. They refuse to listen to science, so it seems like a good idea from a money making, for-profit stand. That is what health care is in America, right? For profit and not for the benefit of keeping people healthy? That is what the right keeps talking about, so here we are. Deny any coverage at all to those who survive hospital stays after getting covid. Seems fair. Let those who want Medicare opt in IF they have followed science.

There are a couple of religious sects I could see making exemptions for but for those "MAH FREEDUMZ!!!" crew, no. Free market, right?
 
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CitizenJustin
Posts: 869
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:27 am

LabQuest wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
With Democrats controlling the house, senate and White House will they push for universal healthcare before the 2022 midterms? We need universal healthcare in the U.S. I think Democrats will still control all three branches after the midterms due to the rhetoric and policies on the right. Will universal healthcare be proposed or will it be stopped by the conservative Democrats in the senate in WV and AZ?


The democrats are going to get crushed in the midterms. The controlling party always looses seats at the midterms.

The reason universal healthcare isn't more popular is because most people have affordable, comprehensive insurance that covers their medical costs at a reasonable rate.



Healthcare is one of the top ten reasons people file for bankruptcy in this country. Many Americans are just one major illness away from financial ruin. Costs can easily skyrocket, even with insurance.

Your comment would imply that healthcare isn’t a major cause of bankruptcy and that everything is perfectly fine with our system that ranks dead last among developed nations. You may have excellent insurance but millions of hard working Americans do not.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8716
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:43 pm

Drafran wrote:
But getting rid of Trump and January 6 were certainly significant events. Events that are still front page news.

And these were events that happened prior to Biden being inaugurated so not a lot of people will be too keen on voting against Republicans for something that is in the rear view mirror, unless investigations discover that some Republicans actually conspired to bring them in (IIRC, the FBI found little evidence to suggest that the movement had been formally organized). I don't think we've seen polling where Independents and Never Trumpers will stay home or vote for Democrats over this issue. Rather, people are looking to what's happened since: the Covid stimulus, infrastructure, the end of the Afghan War, and other culture wars.

Drafran wrote:
If Democratic leadership does a countrywide "Stacey Abrams" (get registered and get out the vote), we could potentially see a third. The horrors and potential horrors of Trump's evil minions in local, state, and federal government could get smart people to the polls and keep the Republicans where they belong: the minority.

It may ultimately come down to voter turnout. On one hand you have the Republican base energized and drooling at the prospect of controlling Congress (it's within reach), and their elected officials doing everything possible to install hurdles towards voting. On the other, you have the progressive left that might have joined the mainstream and independents to vote against Trump but is now "furious" at the little progress made for their policies (though honestly, if progressives truly understood government, they'd be rallying voters to their causes rather than criticizing centrists...you know...people you need or else you have no caucus). This latter group is the wild card. Republicans will definitely come out in numbers (insurrection and cuckoo birds be damned); the question is whether the same group that voted against Trump will stick together to strengthen Biden's hand. If the 2020 election results are any indication, it's that people didn't like Trump but they are not sold on Democrats either (otherwise, Democrats might have swept the election at all levels and not the other way around).
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3557
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:18 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

The two tier system works if there are conditions on it, it cannot be a 100% free marketplace like other sectors.

One of the things the Britain does to keep them in balance is that doctors have to do a certain length of time in the NHS before going into private practice. Thus preventing a doctor from going private immediately, this allows the NHS to have doctors in the system and ensure that they all can't go private. Prices are also capped to prevent bidding wars for services. I support the two tier system for non-essential services but you need to keep it in check as they systems need to balance each other.

But isn't that a way of exploiting young inexperienced doctors? (Public place salary are lower than private thus cannot attract private doctors - So those with less bargaining power aka in this case those with less experience, are forced to work for it for less than they could otherwise earn - Unless that's considered a return by them to training they received)


When you are new you start at the bottom and that is way for the two tier British system to not fall into a completely private system due to it being more lucrative. You have to do a minimum time in the public system.

I hope someone from the UK can chime in but I remember from the Michael Moore movie Sicko which was released in 2007 (not the greatest example I know) that the NHS doctor earned something like $100,000 pounds a year which is USD $137,000. Keep in mind that this is a GP and in the UK under the NHS the infrastructure is already there and all of the nurses and associated staff are also employed by the NHS so that is a salary. While a US GP would earn far more they would have to pay their staff, malpractice/liability insurance, rent a clinic etc. None of those costs would have to be assumed by the doctor.

Also they get bonuses for positive health outcomes. If they get a patient to quit smoking or lose weight they get paid more.

Even in Canada where the universal system is run provincially dental, optometry, prescription drugs, physiotherapy, therapy aren't covered by the government and you usually get extended health through your employer.

The biggest thing with the wait times coming from Canada is that there is simply not enough funding in the system to fulfill capacity. Covid has exposed this issue but it was always there.

Amid aging population across developed countries, is it realistic for a public health system in such countries to remain properly funded?


I think if its clearly explained to the taxpayers that this is the cost of the system and it isn't mired in in-efficiency and corruption then people will pay the higher taxes for it.
The reason that say the Scandinavian countries accept the tax levels they have is that that money in used very well for the society where in the US and even in Canada the money is often used poorly.

The alternative is that some people are waiting or dying. We are going to the polls in 3 weeks in Canada and this question is very much on the ballot with the conservatives suggesting some kind of two tier system.

Healthcare like private business will face highs and lows of demand on their services but with the system operating near or above capacity and when there is a surge like a pandemic or a bad cold and flu season then the system gets to its limit. For healthcare to work properly you need that capacity which if strictly looking at the books is inefficient because 100% is ideal as there is no wasted capacity. For healthcare to actually work you need 10-25% spare capacity to handle things like Covid or any local outbreak of other infectious diseases. Taxpayers don't like this because higher taxes but they don't like the wait times either.

That's a trade off that need to be made no matter it's public or privately funded


That's fine but when you get an event like Covid then there might not be the ability to get treated if you need it and you will face delays.


Funny, I remember when Obamacare was being argued, why not just full on Universal. One of the sticking points was malpractice. The trial lawyers are a BIG donor to Democrats, and they did not want that gravy train to go away. How does malpractice work under Universal Healthcare? What role do the lawyers have in Universal Healthcare?

Why do so many Canadians and Europeans come to the US for treatment? Its expensive, I go to Mexico for dental because of the quality and price.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4331
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Universal Healthcare

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:56 pm

william wrote:
Why do so many Canadians and Europeans come to the US for treatment? Its expensive, I go to Mexico for dental because of the quality and price.
Because the US has the best medical system a lot of money can buy.
For those that do have a lot of money, it might be worthwhile to skip waiting lists and go to a US doctor. But those are the exceptions!

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